It's time to unnerf Shiro in PvE

[draxynnic.3719]

18 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

As far as I am aware, no core build puts enough dps for a raid spot. This is not a rev exclusive issue. Condi renegade puts about 40k. Could it do 1-2k more damage, sure. 

Core power guardian might be able to, but power willbender is better in that niche so it dropped out of favour after EoD released. I think it's also possible for core condi engineer to get up there, but that's outperformed by condi holo and condi mech so they are the favoured builds. It's probably a good thing overall for a core to be able to reach numbers that are at least suitable if not optimal for raids, say around 35k+, so that the elite specialisation is just providing a little more oomph rather than being what makes the profession viable in the first place.

[draxynnic.3719]

Incidentally, some more thoughts on the CttB comparison now that I'm a bit more awake:

I think there's a bit of an 'apples to oranges' comparison being made there. The buffs to CttB were essentially being made to address identified weaknesses with reaper as a whole. It lacks gap-closers, so it relies more on snares to keep enemies close than revenant. It was known for being a bit of a beachball when it came to CCs, and self-stability helped in that respect. It was also designed around a theme of having slow attacks, and more access to quickness paradoxically allows it to have that theme without being crippled by it due to being able to generate bursts during which its skills aren't so easily dodged.

Most of those problems, apart from being vulnerable to CC, aren't shared by revenant. As I did comment on, too, reaper is restricted on how often it can CttB - when it goes off, that's it for a certain period of time. Revenant, at least theoretically, can set up the possibility of near-back-to-back Jade Winds, possibly even following up with a legend-swap and more area CC. Ultimately, though, the skills are in different contexts since for CttB, the only balance levers are cooldown, numbers, and functionality. Revenant skills have another lever - energy cost.

My personal opinion remains that decreasing the energy cost can do a lot for the usability of the skill. It means that if you're at high energy, you can use the skill and still have energy left for a decent follow-up without having to swap legends (and if you're at high energy, there's a good chance you've just used a swap to get that energy and you can't swap back just yet). If you're at low energy, reduced cooldowns make it just that much more likely that you'll be able to use a situational skill when the situation arises. Leaving the cost as is, but adding more functionality, still means that you might be lacking the energy to follow up after using it or just not have the energy to use it in the first place.

Ideally, I'd probably consider energy cost reductions to be the first port of call in improving a skill - as this is effectively increasing functionality because the player can choose what they use the energy savings for, but the player can make that choice rather than have a do-everything skill where they might be paying for features they don't care about. The exception is when there's a clear case why the core functionality of the skill needs to be limited - which I think is essentially what happened with Phase Traversal in competitive (they wanted to limit how often Shiro could teleport, so they increased the price, but added the quickness and unblockable so that you could PT and still have a decent followup despite the price). In a PvE context, though, I don't see much reason why a teleport-to-target has to be 30 energy, or why an area CC with a windup needs to be 50 energy (let's be blunt here, Jade Winds in PvE is basically Surge of the Mists with a wider area and a shorter cooldown).

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

There's a lot of massive overthinking in this thread honestly. It's not that deep and it's really quite simple: Shiro will always use IO for damage and that's fine. Decreasing energy costs on its utility skills allows you to actually use them, ya know, for utility without completely tanking your dps. 

Simple solution (and the only solution that needs to happen) is to decrease the ridiculous energy costs, NOT rework the entire upkeep system or overload skills with even more effects. This is PvE and none of Shiro's skills would be ridiculously abusable if the costs were decreased a bit and we certainly don't need a full rework of Rev mechanics simply to boost Shiro's usability.

Edited August 15, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

There's a lot of massive overthinking in this thread honestly. It's not that deep and it's really quite simple: Shiro will always use IO for damage and that's fine. Decreasing energy costs on its utility skills allows you to actually use them, ya know, for utility without completely tanking your dps. 

We can see this with Jalis and Mallyx. In both cases, it's the upkeep skill that you use for damage, but the other skills are situationally useful. Shiro's skills could be situationally useful but the prices are just too high. Movement skills are not worth 30 energy in PvE. A CC skill, even one with a wide radius, is not worth 50 energy in most PvE situations.

[phokus.8934]

11 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

There's a lot of massive overthinking in this thread honestly. It's not that deep and it's really quite simple: Shiro will always use IO for damage and that's fine. Decreasing energy costs on its utility skills allows you to actually use them, ya know, for utility without completely tanking your dps. 

Simple solution (and the only solution that needs to happen) is to decrease the ridiculous energy costs, NOT rework the entire upkeep system or overload skills with even more effects. This is PvE and none of Shiro's skills would be ridiculously abusable if the costs were decreased a bit and we certainly don't need a full rework of Rev mechanics simply to boost Shiro's usability.

This guy revs.

[Kozumi.5816]

16 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

There's a lot of massive overthinking in this thread honestly. It's not that deep and it's really quite simple: Shiro will always use IO for damage and that's fine. Decreasing energy costs on its utility skills allows you to actually use them, ya know, for utility without completely tanking your dps. 

Simple solution (and the only solution that needs to happen) is to decrease the ridiculous energy costs, NOT rework the entire upkeep system or overload skills with even more effects. This is PvE and none of Shiro's skills would be ridiculously abusable if the costs were decreased a bit and we certainly don't need a full rework of Rev mechanics simply to boost Shiro's usability.

The skills are good, they just are too pricey to ever use.

[arazoth.7290]

pve:

phase traversal => 15 energy

Ripostin shadows => 25 energy

Jade winds => 30 energy

[Shao.7236]

On 8/14/2023 at 12:04 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

There are fights where there are adds in play, you can probably get away with it on those fights. Or have two of them and get the quickness that way. Or... let's just say there are multiple possible ways in which getting quickness from Shiro and alacrity from Renegade could potentially be spooky unless the quickness was balanced so conservatively that it's not going to be competitive anyway.

With the hypothesis that Quickness is gained from JW for self only whether PT loses it or not. Isn't that just filling the blanks of the otherwise large constant disappointment JW is anyway? Even at 40 it will still be that one skill to which unless you have already stacked energy you can't do much right away with on a fresh swap, Shiro exits could be better without an act of mobility forced on the player too which JW nicely fits. That is speaking from experience with SB/Hammer since IO lost Quickness.

The majority use Charged Mists so SotM is never in the picture, but at the benefit of Charged Mists why not have it's own way to get Quickness without the jank of PT? Typically the avenues are different with the same results.

On 8/14/2023 at 12:04 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Chilled to the Bone is pretty overloaded... but the buffs are self-only, and it has a 30s recharge. As a self-buff, too, I also don't see it being that much different between getting Quickness from Jade Winds and getting it from PT. Both require you to be pretty much in the thick of things as it is. Taking the Quickness off PT would probably also put it in the position of needing something else to replace it... or perhaps a cost reduction?

I lean on the side of reducing cost if it means removing Quickness and giving it to JW because of several coinciding reasons.

* It's only useful to CQB since you end up in the face of enemies, generally speaking. 

* Not all skills equally can justify the benefits from Quickness if it means getting in the face of danger.

* It offloads into having skills such as Jade Wind seeing more use even at 50% cost.

* Unblockables are already a strong buff and Revenant has other ways to do what PT does without the annoying part of being forced to move into the face of someone while still having the need of better access to Quickness.

Those changes will nerf a lot of the cheese in PvP while still adding more to PvE, I specifically enjoy the idea of more Quickness based on targets personally.

Finally, take from FE as an example, low cost high CD, it wouldn't be that unusual to have for PT in PvP.

 

Quote

There's a lot of massive overthinking in this thread honestly. It's not that deep and it's really quite simple: Shiro will always use IO for damage and that's fine. Decreasing energy costs on its utility skills allows you to actually use them, ya know, for utility without completely tanking your dps. 

Simple solution (and the only solution that needs to happen) is to decrease the ridiculous energy costs, NOT rework the entire upkeep system or overload skills with even more effects. This is PvE and none of Shiro's skills would be ridiculously abusable if the costs were decreased a bit and we certainly don't need a full rework of Rev mechanics simply to boost Shiro's usability.

Then you're not really changing anything. If IO is fine, then everything is fine. There's no reason for skills to have lower costs if the uses cases are just niche and always mean inefficiency. It all is literally just extra buttons for the fun factor if energy costs are reduced.

You can say it's overthinking, but Core is not in the best place and any change to it would be better, changing energy costs wouldn't do anything, not until Core skills have ways to intertwine better and adding persistent effects is one way to do it without reworking skills massively. Hell removing the cost of activation to upkeep skills would already do a massive difference for certain plays.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Shao.7236

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

With the hypothesis that Quickness is gained from JW for self only whether PT loses it or not. Isn't that just filling the blanks of the otherwise large constant disappointment JW is anyway? Even at 40 it will still be that one skill to which unless you have already stacked energy you can't do much right away with on a fresh swap, Shiro exits could be better without an act of mobility forced on the player too which JW nicely fits. That is speaking from experience with SB/Hammer since IO lost Quickness.

The majority use Charged Mists so SotM is never in the picture, but at the benefit of Charged Mists why not have it's own way to get Quickness without the jank of PT? Typically the avenues are different with the same results.

The meta builds in PvE that use Shiro don't use Charged Mists, they use Roiling Mists. So budgeting for a starting energy of 50 is the appropriate response for PvE. From the builds I can find, in fact, the builds in WvW and sPvP that use Shiro also don't use Charged Mists, they use either Roiling or Song. Charged Mists seems to be most commonly used by condi revs or support revs. Now, I'm sure you've been doing things differently, because you're a fairly prolific buildcrafter, but based on what's on the websites, the majority are not using Charged with Shiro.

Regarding placing quickness on JW, even in the consideration of it being removed from Phase Traversal: the problem here is that thematically, this is the exact opposite of what Shiro did (and tried to do at the end of his second life). He doesn't use Jade Winds and then follow up with a rapid attack - he used it as a final revenge scream when he was dying. Now, obviously revenants don't die when they use Jade Winds, and the skill does benefit from having a strong followup, but I think it is breaking the lore behind the legend for Jade Winds to inherently provide the means for that followup. And that's just considering it as quickness for yourself and not for your allies (which could create a janky situation where it might not be useful against single bosses, while against bosses with lots of adds, alacquickren might become the next detonate plasma thief).

At 40, it will still be inconvenient to use, to be sure... but it will be significantly less inconvenient. You've got the opportunity to do something after switching and possibly having energy for Jade Winds, as opposed to the current situation where any energy usage kicks it off.

11 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

 

Then you're not really changing anything. If IO is fine, then everything is fine. There's no reason for skills to have lower costs if the uses cases are just niche and always mean inefficiency. It all is literally just extra buttons for the fun factor if energy costs are reduced.

You can say it's overthinking, but Core is not in the best place and any change to it would be better, changing energy costs wouldn't do anything, not until Core skills have ways to intertwine better and adding persistent effects is one way to do it without reworking skills massively. Hell removing the cost of activation to upkeep skills would already do a massive difference for certain plays.

Again, the same observation can be made with Jalis and Mallyx using their upkeep skills for damage, but both manage to have situations where other skills are useful. Now, arguably, in Jalis's case this is because you don't bring Jalis unless you specifically want more than just damage, but Mallyx is a staple of condirev and Mallyx's other skills are still situationally useful... why? Because they're cost-effective in the right situation. Heck, I think there's an object lesson here in that in a PvE environment, Call to Anguish is arguably nearly as useful as Jade Winds (it's a pull and chill instead of a 3s stun, has a smaller area and less damage* but also offers an inbuilt leap and leap finisher with shorter activation time), but it costs 40% less. By that yardstick, Jade Winds is overcosted, and I think it's better to reduce the cost and make it more useful for its one job, then overload it with multiple functions where it might not be cost-effective for any of them.

*Although it potentially generates up to three stacks of torment between Abyssal Chill and having EtD up, which might be more important to a condi build...

[Shao.7236]

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The meta builds in PvE that use Shiro don't use Charged Mists, they use Roiling Mists. So budgeting for a starting energy of 50 is the appropriate response for PvE. From the builds I can find, in fact, the builds in WvW and sPvP that use Shiro also don't use Charged Mists, they use either Roiling or Song. Charged Mists seems to be most commonly used by condi revs or support revs. Now, I'm sure you've been doing things differently, because you're a fairly prolific buildcrafter, but based on what's on the websites, the majority are not using Charged with Shiro.

We were talking about the scary Alacrity Quickness here, I have nothing to provide for anything that stands outside of it because again, aside that everyone ignores Core complete irrelevant presence but complain about not having good Core content for elites and resort to solutions that would benefit anything but core. How about two birds one stone for once?

The motives are misplaced and inefficient. I know that anything outside Alacrity doesn't use CM and everyone is focused on RM in PvE and SotM in PvP because one is nerfed to the ground while the other isn't. Every single Alacrity build have used CM and that was the only thing I was referring to, I don't use CM ever because too much energy doesn't get things done, Ancient Echo fills that neatly.

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Again, the same observation can be made with Jalis and Mallyx using their upkeep skills for damage, but both manage to have situations where other skills are useful. Now, arguably, in Jalis's case this is because you don't bring Jalis unless you specifically want more than just damage, but Mallyx is a staple of condirev and Mallyx's other skills are still situationally useful... why? Because they're cost-effective in the right situation. Heck, I think there's an object lesson here in that in a PvE environment, Call to Anguish is arguably nearly as useful as Jade Winds (it's a pull and chill instead of a 3s stun, has a smaller area and less damage* but also offers an inbuilt leap and leap finisher with shorter activation time), but it costs 40% less. By that yardstick, Jade Winds is overcosted, and I think it's better to reduce the cost and make it more useful for its one job, then overload it with multiple functions where it might not be cost-effective for any of them.

*Although it potentially generates up to three stacks of torment between Abyssal Chill and having EtD up, which might be more important to a condi build...

Make them "cost" effective for elites but what about core? Cost effectiveness doesn't mean anything for it because every elites have superior ways to keep things moving in between, two core legends do not and that's the point anyone misses.

They want better core legends for their elites but core legends for themselves based on the recommendations themselves don't benefit at /all/.

Core has plenty energy to work with yet doesn't achieve much as it sets to while somehow elites can achieve more but complain about not having enough energy and think that with less cost which Core already have the energy to set out for, the elites will be more fun? Yeah sure if you're starved for one extra button to press but that's not doing anything in the grand scheme of things, damage is not better, synergy is not better, flow is not better, no combinations are created.

This is more of a selfish change than it is for everything to benefit.

It's quite telling that costs aren't the issues if skills from the very base alone on Core do not provide enough but everyone THINKS that reducing costs alone will fix anything but it won't because the tactics will always be the same fundamentally.

It's not ambitious to ask upkeep to be more versatile since that's the only thing that stops everything from breaking that wall at the fundamental.

Neither it is to improve the interactions in between, PT is not a good skill to switch out of comparatively to JW, neither is RS because that's more forced mobility with no meaningful offensive benefit by itself.

You can't say that having Quickness on JW would create janky scenarios if anyone in the alternative scenario is looking towards using PT which is forced mobility and quickness in the mix of so desired opportunities. I don't believe that, getting 3 seconds (2 base +1 target 0% Boon duration) that includes stun and vulnerability is way more desirable package than it is forced mobility for quickness, all the better if it means having SotM along and even costs reduced at 40% but I don't think it'll be wise to do all of that at once and would rather see the upkeep changed first.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Shao.7236

[otto.5684]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:57 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

There's a lot of massive overthinking in this thread honestly. It's not that deep and it's really quite simple: Shiro will always use IO for damage and that's fine. Decreasing energy costs on its utility skills allows you to actually use them, ya know, for utility without completely tanking your dps. 

Simple solution (and the only solution that needs to happen) is to decrease the ridiculous energy costs, NOT rework the entire upkeep system or overload skills with even more effects. This is PvE and none of Shiro's skills would be ridiculously abusable if the costs were decreased a bit and we certainly don't need a full rework of Rev mechanics simply to boost Shiro's usability.

This is what I have been saying and getting confused voted. Most skills are fine. We just want to be able to use their utilities without tanking our damage output.

[ArthurDent.9538]

18 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

This is what I have been saying and getting confused voted. Most skills are fine. We just want to be able to use their utilities without tanking our damage output.

Realistically, one should expect to tank your damage a bit in order to use the utility, it is simply a matter of how much is reasonable. Look at basically every other dps build in the game and their utility, elite, and sometimes even heal slots are all taken to deal more damage. If they want to take say a stunbreak because  the encounter calls for it, they have to drop one of their dps utilities lowering their dps potential. Rev of course is a bit different in that it always has an extra degree of utility baked into its kit but to use it they need to reallocate their energy away from the damage dealing legend skills, this fair and good design.

In the case of shiro I think jade winds is simply too expensive as 300 breakbar damage is not a ton of value for it's massive cost. Even in most situations where I want to use it, I tend to just let my teammates deal with the defiance bar because jade winds is both a massive sacrifice to personal dps and 300 defiance bar damage is simply not a large amount. However I think phase traversal is definitely worth it's cost when needed as maintaining good dps less about perfecting your rotation and more about maximizing your dps uptime than people acknowledge and phase traversal is very good for maintaining dps uptime against mobile enemies. Riposting shadows is a bit more niche in that groups tend to take stability for encounters with incoming stuns rather than making everyone bring their own stunbreak but never undervalue a stunbreak + evade in the situations where you need it as going down is a much larger dps loss than losing some impossible odds uptime so it is also a reasonable trade imo.

[SunTheBro.4853]

Bottom line: Core Revenant skills need a cost reduction in PvE. Charged Mists shouldn't be a requirement for someone to do damage AND have access to some basic utility. 

[otto.5684]

22 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Realistically, one should expect to tank your damage a bit in order to use the utility, it is simply a matter of how much is reasonable. Look at basically every other dps build in the game and their utility, elite, and sometimes even heal slots are all taken to deal more damage. If they want to take say a stunbreak because  the encounter calls for it, they have to drop one of their dps utilities lowering their dps potential. Rev of course is a bit different in that it always has an extra degree of utility baked into its kit but to use it they need to reallocate their energy away from the damage dealing legend skills, this fair and good design.

In the case of shiro I think jade winds is simply too expensive as 300 breakbar damage is not a ton of value for it's massive cost. Even in most situations where I want to use it, I tend to just let my teammates deal with the defiance bar because jade winds is both a massive sacrifice to personal dps and 300 defiance bar damage is simply not a large amount. However I think phase traversal is definitely worth it's cost when needed as maintaining good dps less about perfecting your rotation and more about maximizing your dps uptime than people acknowledge and phase traversal is very good for maintaining dps uptime against mobile enemies. Riposting shadows is a bit more niche in that groups tend to take stability for encounters with incoming stuns rather than making everyone bring their own stunbreak but never undervalue a stunbreak + evade in the situations where you need it as going down is a much larger dps loss than losing some impossible odds uptime so it is also a reasonable trade imo.

I do not disagree with you. Though we need to get to a reasonable state. I think Vindicator has it best. You can use arch utilities: the dps utility, a utility with less dps and boons and a utility with CC break. And of course you can switch to Vicktor for support/healing. Switching to Vick hursts your dps, however you can do a quick switch for a heal or condi removal then switch legend. And none of the utilities cost too much. On arch, if I need to use Reaver Rage, it is 15 energy. Not so bad. Compare that to Shiro, PT, 30, RS, 30 and JW, 50. In no way you will use any of these, unless it is absolutely necessary. 

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:24 AM, Shao.7236 said:

We were talking about the scary Alacrity Quickness here, I have nothing to provide for anything that stands outside of it because again, aside that everyone ignores Core complete irrelevant presence but complain about not having good Core content for elites and resort to solutions that would benefit anything but core. How about two birds one stone for once?

The motives are misplaced and inefficient. I know that anything outside Alacrity doesn't use CM and everyone is focused on RM in PvE and SotM in PvP because one is nerfed to the ground while the other isn't. Every single Alacrity build have used CM and that was the only thing I was referring to, I don't use CM ever because too much energy doesn't get things done, Ancient Echo fills that neatly.

ArenaNet has given a pretty clear indication that granting Quickness or Alacrity to a group can only happen on elite specialisations - because this means they can put the other boon on another elite specialisation and avoid the situation where one build can have both. Until recently, cases where a core build could provide either of those reliably meant that the other was completely absent from the entire specialisation, but ranger and warrior reworks removed that situation altogether.

Combined with how chronomancer was reworked, ArenaNet has shown that any situation where one build can provide both is not acceptable to them. Your suggestion is just not going to fly. Reduced energy costs, however, might.

On 8/19/2023 at 7:24 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Make them "cost" effective for elites but what about core? Cost effectiveness doesn't mean anything for it because every elites have superior ways to keep things moving in between, two core legends do not and that's the point anyone misses.

They want better core legends for their elites but core legends for themselves based on the recommendations themselves don't benefit at /all/.

Core has plenty energy to work with yet doesn't achieve much as it sets to while somehow elites can achieve more but complain about not having enough energy and think that with less cost which Core already have the energy to set out for, the elites will be more fun? Yeah sure if you're starved for one extra button to press but that's not doing anything in the grand scheme of things, damage is not better, synergy is not better, flow is not better, no combinations are created.

This is more of a selfish change than it is for everything to benefit.

It's quite telling that costs aren't the issues if skills from the very base alone on Core do not provide enough but everyone THINKS that reducing costs alone will fix anything but it won't because the tactics will always be the same fundamentally.

It's not ambitious to ask upkeep to be more versatile since that's the only thing that stops everything from breaking that wall at the fundamental.

Neither it is to improve the interactions in between, PT is not a good skill to switch out of comparatively to JW, neither is RS because that's more forced mobility with no meaningful offensive benefit by itself.

You can't say that having Quickness on JW would create janky scenarios if anyone in the alternative scenario is looking towards using PT which is forced mobility and quickness in the mix of so desired opportunities. I don't believe that, getting 3 seconds (2 base +1 target 0% Boon duration) that includes stun and vulnerability is way more desirable package than it is forced mobility for quickness, all the better if it means having SotM along and even costs reduced at 40% but I don't think it'll be wise to do all of that at once and would rather see the upkeep changed first.

Are you saying that cost reductions wouldn't benefit core because core has 25 extra energy on a 20s recharge? Sure, it's nice, particularly since Ancient Echo also has other effects, but I'm sure core would still benefit from being able to do more with that. The difference is that you want to have them do more by piling additional effects onto skills, while my proposal is to reduce skill costs and let the player decide what they actually want rather than charging 50 energy for a do-everything skill when the thing the player actually wanted might be worth a lot less.

You've also ignored a major part of my point - Shiro skills are overcosted compared to other revenant skills with similar functions. Phase Traversal is 30 energy compared to weapon skill teleports at 10 - PT does bring a bit more to the table and has a shorter recharge, but I really don't think this is worth 20 energy in PvE. PT was 20 energy on release, and got nerfed before the skill splits - 20 is probably about what it's worth in PvE. Riposting Shadows is comparable to Energy Meld at 10 energy, albeit with an inbuilt dodge and stunbreak - maybe it's worth 30 energy if you consider it to be like a combination of Energy Meld and Reaver's Rage, but I'm sceptical. Jade Winds is... well, I compared to Call to Anguish before, but an even better comparison might be Energy Expulsion. Knockdown for the same stun duration and breakbar damage, smaller radius but can be ranged, heals allies, removes a condition, blast finisher, potentially grants Stability, and sets up Empowered for subsequent skills, all for 35 energy. Jade Winds at 50 energy really falls short in that regard.

Now, you could say that adding more effects onto Jade Winds would make it worth 50 energy, but I think this is a case where purity of purpose is better than adding more and more ingredients until it's worth an arbitrary price in those situations where the stars align and all of the components that have been thrown together are useful. Jade Winds' intended function is to CC enemies in a wide area and potentially set them up to be finished off. Adding more functionality doesn't contribute to that (you could argue that quickness helps with the "set them up" part, but something else that would help with that is having more energy in the tank to have something other than autoattack to follow up with). Cost reductions are a simple approach that will bring Shiro's skills more in line with similar skills in other legends and make them better at what they're actually intended to do.  

[Shao.7236]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:51 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

ArenaNet has given a pretty clear indication that granting Quickness or Alacrity to a group can only happen on elite specialisations

Case closed.

On 8/25/2023 at 12:51 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Are you saying that cost reductions wouldn't benefit core because core has 25 extra energy on a 20s recharge? Sure, it's nice, particularly since Ancient Echo also has other effects, but I'm sure core would still benefit from being able to do more with that. The difference is that you want to have them do more by piling additional effects onto skills, while my proposal is to reduce skill costs and let the player decide what they actually want rather than charging 50 energy for a do-everything skill when the thing the player actually wanted might be worth a lot less.

You keep forgetting by default because of designs, all skills that are core have no significant lasting effects that keep those going while you're in the other legends and that alone kills any viability to Core legends to be combined in PvE, you're trying to fill gaps that are "just because" which attributes only to players wanting more buttons to press, if you're going to ask for more options.. Ask for something that makes a difference for everyone not just the niche.

In PvP it works wonderfully because you're not in a hurry to pump damage, you want to use the right skill at the right time to be one step ahead all the time and that time waiting flows in energy to be plentiful which is why costs are so high, also skill don't need to be so pro-active but reactive because again, pumping damage is only a quarter of the fight.

On 8/25/2023 at 12:51 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

You've also ignored a major part of my point - Shiro skills are overcosted compared to other revenant skills with similar functions. Phase Traversal is 30 energy compared to weapon skill teleports at 10 - PT does bring a bit more to the table and has a shorter recharge, but I really don't think this is worth 20 energy in PvE. PT was 20 energy on release, and got nerfed before the skill splits - 20 is probably about what it's worth in PvE. Riposting Shadows is comparable to Energy Meld at 10 energy, albeit with an inbuilt dodge and stunbreak - maybe it's worth 30 energy if you consider it to be like a combination of Energy Meld and Reaver's Rage, but I'm sceptical. Jade Winds is... well, I compared to Call to Anguish before, but an even better comparison might be Energy Expulsion. Knockdown for the same stun duration and breakbar damage, smaller radius but can be ranged, heals allies, removes a condition, blast finisher, potentially grants Stability, and sets up Empowered for subsequent skills, all for 35 energy. Jade Winds at 50 energy really falls short in that regard.

Not ignored, they're not comparable. If Jade Wind was 35%, think of how often it could be used.. Too often for what it is. It doesn't seem like much but 3 seconds stun in a 600 radius with vulnerability is a lot. Especially if it can be use so long you have the energy for it, maybe it's underewhelming to end game content because energy is much better used in IO for DPS but that's the balance act of all other benefits it has.

Why would you use those other skills(CtA, EE) if it ever meant to have good damage and good crowd control with Shiro? It is clearly by design that they are not touching anything, if they had ever felt like something was required they would have done so while ago, at least with Mallyx and Ventari have seen enough changes to prove that to a certain extend to care about some specific, not all the time or everything but some of it, either of these skills also make sense in the context of their roles, one is to make condition damage less annoying to apply towards multiple targets, the other is a pro-active shrug off button. 

If Jade Wind turns out to cost 35%, they'll have to nerf something about it and that's not desired. So you think 40-45% seems like an okay idea but it doesn't take away that Jade Wind is situationally better in some situations compared others and when it does, it's cost is rather justified, I don't think anyone wants to see a cooldown on it so why mess at all with it.

On 8/25/2023 at 12:51 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Now, you could say that adding more effects onto Jade Winds would make it worth 50 energy, but I think this is a case where purity of purpose is better than adding more and more ingredients until it's worth an arbitrary price in those situations where the stars align and all of the components that have been thrown together are useful. Jade Winds' intended function is to CC enemies in a wide area and potentially set them up to be finished off. Adding more functionality doesn't contribute to that (you could argue that quickness helps with the "set them up" part, but something else that would help with that is having more energy in the tank to have something other than autoattack to follow up with). Cost reductions are a simple approach that will bring Shiro's skills more in line with similar skills in other legends and make them better at what they're actually intended to do.  

A majority of skills see better benefits if things turn out to be the way they need so.. What's wrong with making a powerful skill follow suit? It's clear everyone wants a cheap CC on Shiro, coming down to that use Sw/Axe.. Frigid Blitz still has other kind of benefits Death Strike does not such as.. Multiple Target Hits, Unblockable. It's also for mention that Axe is the ex Power weapon off-hand that was meant to be used before they changed off-hand sword.

You were the one to tell me about Jade Wind not being story accurate if it had of sort of change, I'm fairly certain the reason why the skill has very high cost is because after the event he's basically dead with nothing left to do. So whether it comes to having more skills to use or Quickness, I'm fairly certain that adding Quickness at least respect the intend of the cost more than it is to start using more Shiro skills afterwards, normally you would want to legend swap after Jade Wind anyway so that Quickness is not wasted in regards to that and at the concept of everything around you being petrified in a sort of way does have some cool speedy implications, Quickness is also the theme of Shiro as well.

 

No matter, I still think that Upkeep modifications has more potential, it could increase the DPS of Core while give more slack for elites to play with energy. I have yet to see anyone argue over it and no saying that it's "overdoing it" is not valid, upkeep is probably the LEAST of interesting interaction in their current state and they could be way better than now.

[Aeolus.3615]

Well rather than buff energy for the spam Anet could give more suff into the skill rather reduce energy.

For start riposting shadows could have a shockwave at the end  of the dodge ._.

[Shao.7236]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:21 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

Well rather than buff energy for the spam Anet could give more suff into the skill rather reduce energy.

For start riposting shadows could have a shockwave at the end  of the dodge ._.

You have the right idea just not the right concepts, most skills are fine as they are.

Every single elites have something in common that core doesn't. Meaningful skills that don't require active input of the player to be effective.

If IO (And all Upkeep skills for that matter) would be allowed to exist passively while still having a reason to stick to it by having other sorts or tradeoff/benefit, energy costs would be buffed profession wide and nothing else would have to be touched.

This is why I personally think that taking inspiration from Herald ability to have passive after consuming a facet should work the same on all upkeep skills as well depending on their designs. All upkeeps already have a cost associated to them, their passive duration should remain equivalent to that cost or in a less complicated way last 6 seconds like Herald(pick your poison), if they are deactivated before reaching that threshold the cooldown of the upkeep skill should be 10 seconds to avoid exploiting as it also matches legend swap values.

This would balance out the fact that you can now mix upkeeps (IE: IO + VH) while not abusing energy recovery because the passive could be constantly earned which will outweight energy gain for every quick activation.

Some people will say that they'd hate the idea of losing the "control" of turning it on and off on a 1 second cooldown but doing that has literally 0 benefits outside not hitting someone with VH or EtD that benefits from being hit to which I say, skill issue work the upkeep better.

Only upkeep skill that would need some modification is the urn but then again they could make the urn not have a passive remain since the idea behind it is to stop the skill altogether.

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

34 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

You have the right idea just not the right concepts, most skills are fine as they are.

Every single elites have something in common that core doesn't. Meaningful skills that don't require active input of the player to be effective.

If IO (And all Upkeep skills for that matter) would be allowed to exist passively while still having a reason to stick to it by having other sorts or tradeoff/benefit, energy costs would be buffed profession wide and nothing else would have to be touched.

This is why I personally think that taking inspiration from Herald ability to have passive after consuming a facet should work the same on all upkeep skills as well depending on their designs. All upkeeps already have a cost associated to them, their passive duration should remain equivalent to that cost or in a less complicated way last 6 seconds like Herald(pick your poison), if they are deactivated before reaching that threshold the cooldown of the upkeep skill should be 10 seconds to avoid exploiting as it also matches legend swap values.

This would balance out the fact that you can now mix upkeeps (IE: IO + VH) while not abusing energy recovery because the passive could be constantly earned which will outweight energy gain for every quick activation.

Some people will say that they'd hate the idea of losing the "control" of turning it on and off on a 1 second cooldown but doing that has literally 0 benefits outside not hitting someone with VH or EtD that benefits from being hit to which I say, skill issue work the upkeep better.

Only upkeep skill that would need some modification is the urn but then again they could make the urn not have a passive remain since the idea behind it is to stop the skill altogether.

 

I don’t understand why many of these suggestions seek to add weird functionality to the class in order to “fix it.” Sure, This could be interesting as a trait (probably Grandmaster since it would potentially be busted), but as regular functionality it’s a bit ridiculous, doesn’t fit the theme, doesn’t fix anything, and needlessly makes the class more complicated (the class being “easy” has never been a complaint thrown at revenant; no need to make it even more complicated) 

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I don’t understand why many of these suggestions seek to add weird functionality to the class in order to “fix it.” Sure, This could be interesting as a trait (probably Grandmaster since it would potentially be busted), but as regular functionality it’s a bit ridiculous, doesn’t fit the theme, doesn’t fix anything, and needlessly makes the class more complicated (the class being “easy” has never been a complaint thrown at revenant; no need to make it even more complicated) 

It's literally making one more button press useful, what's so complicated about that?

If that doesn't fit the theme of Revenant, there's a LOT to be said about the recent changes or additions that don't fit it either yet there they are. Herald is especially guilty of those constant changes that everyone seems to approve with open arms.

It actually fixes the issues people have with energy because IO like many others are an essential part of dealing damage or achieving useful results but you always end up dry on energy because if you're not using it, you're wasting potential. So why not make it happen? Why not give people the ability to use IO and other skills by introducing a new possibility that takes away the useless feature of turning upkeep on and off to no benefit, instead make it so you can get energy restoration back early with a passive left over of the upkeep that you cut short which did cost energy to start in the first place, meanwhile being able to cast other skills like everyone wishes for instead of only making some use cases useful for lower costs since it's pretty obvious for anyone that actually plays core with all the available button presses which don't do anything useful in the grand scheme of things but people think it will. Not happy with the changes? That's okay, nothing stops you from camping IO and use it like before, so long you don't cut it short, you'll avoid the cooldown to prevent toxic spam.

You buff everyone without changing anything but how on and off works while adding on top of it (And don't tell me quickly turning on and off constantly is somehow beneficial, it's a waste in everyway possible), Core legends won't be as bad for PvE because there's finally more to do than sitting on useless skills in between you can finally use something else along IO.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Shao.7236

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

It's literally making one more button press useful, what's so complicated about that?

Your proposal looks to add CDs to upkeeps (moving farther away from core revenant philosophy) and additionally adds requirements to avoid said CD. This is more complicated than the current system. Additionally, balancing concerns are paramount since you’re also looking to mix upkeeps (ignore the fact this makes no sense/would have to be heavily modified for legends like Ventari, Kalla, Viktor) 

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

If that doesn't fit the theme of Revenant, there's a LOT to be said about the recent changes or additions that don't fit it either yet there they are. 

Don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water just because Anet makes bad changes sometimes. Further, it doesn’t fit what upkeeps are.  It’s a mechanic directly ripped from GW1 and changing it to have alternative functionality would be to essentially make them no longer true upkeeps and thus miss the point of being upkeeps entirely. No herald doesn’t count here since their facets are not just upkeeps but upkeeps+utility skills; a modification by the elite spec to differentiate itself from core mechanics.

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

It actually fixes the issues people have with energy because IO like many others are an essential part of dealing damage or achieving useful results but you always end up dry on energy because if you're not using it, you're wasting potential. So why not make it happen? Why not give people the ability to use IO and other skills by introducing a new possibility that takes away the useless feature of turning upkeep on and off to no benefit, instead make it so you can get energy restoration back early with a passive left over of the upkeep that you cut short which did cost energy to start in the first place, meanwhile being able to cast other skills like everyone wishes for instead of only making some use cases useful for lower costs since it's pretty obvious for anyone that actually plays core with all the available button presses which don't do anything useful in the grand scheme of things but people think it will. Not happy with the changes? That's okay, nothing stops you from camping IO and use it like before, so long you don't cut it short, you'll avoid the cooldown to prevent toxic spam.

You buff everyone without changing anything but how on and off works while adding on top of it (And don't tell me quickly turning on and off constantly is somehow beneficial, it's a waste in everyway possible), Core legends won't be as bad for PvE because there's finally more to do than sitting on useless skills in between you can finally use something else along IO.

Literally, the much much simpler solution is to just lower the energy costs on skills in PvE to be more reasonable and thus able to be used more often for their actual utility. We shouldn’t redesign an entire core mechanic when a simple energy reduction on certain skills serves the purpose. Keep it simple, as they say. Complicated solutions have a higher chance of adding additional complications, which is not something Revenant needs more of 

[Aeolus.3615]

@Shao.7236

The urn... its one of the things that droves me out of vindicator, besides i hate when developers  don't follow lore.

IMO the urn was a bad implementation of the gw1 lore into gw2, it only  needed to do a basic thing, the health drops and how much lower health 3 things should happen.

Increase boosts on  damage output  + damage reducer over time + heal output

The boost would depends % base on stats like some food  to avoid skill end being completely broken since most wvw vindicators are minstrells the better values would for  heal output and for pve that skill would benefit DPS players.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Case closed.

Does this mean that you're dropping the proposal to have Jade Winds provide quickness to allies?

On 8/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Shao.7236 said:

You keep forgetting by default because of designs, all skills that are core have no significant lasting effects that keep those going while you're in the other legends and that alone kills any viability to Core legends to be combined in PvE, you're trying to fill gaps that are "just because" which attributes only to players wanting more buttons to press, if you're going to ask for more options.. Ask for something that makes a difference for everyone not just the niche.

Except that there are a number a skills on core legends that can have lingering effects after you swap? Jalis road, RotGD if timed appropriately, Shiro daggers, and that's just off the top of my head. There is a degree to which revenant is expected to bounce between two sets of utility skills, but apart from Draconic Echo Glint (all but dead in PvE) or spirits that haven't finished their action yet, there's not a lot that transfers from the elite legends either apart from boons.

I don't see how reducing energy costs is just catering to the niche. It's something that everyone in that game mode would benefit from. While adding functionality only benefits people who are using that functionality. Self-quickness on Jade Winds, for instance, would be irrelevant to anyone who already has sufficient quickness coverage from another source (basically any group content, and any solo PvE herald that isn't running the quickness trait nowadays either hasn't figured out how much of a benefit self-quickness is or is deliberately playing at a handicap), while a reduced price would make it more competitive for its primary purpose regardless.

On 8/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Shao.7236 said:

In PvP it works wonderfully because you're not in a hurry to pump damage, you want to use the right skill at the right time to be one step ahead all the time and that time waiting flows in energy to be plentiful which is why costs are so high, also skill don't need to be so pro-active but reactive because again, pumping damage is only a quarter of the fight.

With all due respect, this isn't a PvP discussion. PvP costs should, naturally, be set according to what is suitable for PvP. The whole foundation of this discussion is that PvE priorities, whether group or solo content, are different to PvP priorities.

On 8/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Not ignored, they're not comparable. If Jade Wind was 35%, think of how often it could be used.. Too often for what it is. It doesn't seem like much but 3 seconds stun in a 600 radius with vulnerability is a lot. Especially if it can be use so long you have the energy for it, maybe it's underewhelming to end game content because energy is much better used in IO for DPS but that's the balance act of all other benefits it has.

Why would you use those other skills(CtA, EE) if it ever meant to have good damage and good crowd control with Shiro? It is clearly by design that they are not touching anything, if they had ever felt like something was required they would have done so while ago, at least with Mallyx and Ventari have seen enough changes to prove that to a certain extend to care about some specific, not all the time or everything but some of it, either of these skills also make sense in the context of their roles, one is to make condition damage less annoying to apply towards multiple targets, the other is a pro-active shrug off button. 

If Jade Wind turns out to cost 35%, they'll have to nerf something about it and that's not desired. So you think 40-45% seems like an okay idea but it doesn't take away that Jade Wind is situationally better in some situations compared others and when it does, it's cost is rather justified, I don't think anyone wants to see a cooldown on it so why mess at all with it.

A majority of skills see better benefits if things turn out to be the way they need so.. What's wrong with making a powerful skill follow suit? It's clear everyone wants a cheap CC on Shiro, coming down to that use Sw/Axe.. Frigid Blitz still has other kind of benefits Death Strike does not such as.. Multiple Target Hits, Unblockable. It's also for mention that Axe is the ex Power weapon off-hand that was meant to be used before they changed off-hand sword.

Except they are comparable! They're all skills you're likely primarily using for the purpose of crowd control. So let's compare them in two scenarios:

If the target has Defiance, Jade Winds and EE are equivalent in breakbar damage (300), but EE is 30% cheaper and activates instantly. Call to Anguish is only 150, but for the extra energy cost you can throw axe 5 to make up the difference (this is an aspect that makes rev unique that your arguments for increased functionality over reduced costs are overlooking - reduced costs are increased functionality, because you can then add the functionality of a skill or skills that use the saved energy. And don't tell me that you can follow up Jade Winds with a legend swap, since doing so means that you've been conserving energy until the legend swap was up so you can swap right after Jade Winds, and in that circumstance, you could also CtA, Temporal Rift, swap, and use whatever CC is on the other legend).

If we're talking about adds, Call to Anguish is probably better in most situations because it gathers the adds into a tight location where they can be killed. 

And in both cases, the lower costs of CtA and EE make them more likely to be available when you need them.

About the only situation I can see Jade Winds actually being better than the other two is when you're being overwhelmed by trash mobs and just need to put them on pause, since 3s is a bigger pause by far than Call to Anguish on non-defiant foes. EE is still a 3s knockdown, but it has a tighter radius and you're probably not using Ventari when running solo. However, this is a niche enough situation that I don't think reducing the cost of Jade Winds by 10 or 15 energy is exactly going to create a massive balance concern.

On 8/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Shao.7236 said:

You were the one to tell me about Jade Wind not being story accurate if it had of sort of change, I'm fairly certain the reason why the skill has very high cost is because after the event he's basically dead with nothing left to do. So whether it comes to having more skills to use or Quickness, I'm fairly certain that adding Quickness at least respect the intend of the cost more than it is to start using more Shiro skills afterwards, normally you would want to legend swap after Jade Wind anyway so that Quickness is not wasted in regards to that and at the concept of everything around you being petrified in a sort of way does have some cool speedy implications, Quickness is also the theme of Shiro as well.

It's the revenant tapping into the echo of the skill. Obviously the revenant isn't dying when they use the skill (apart from a trait that was removed years ago). But with such an iconic ability, the effect should match what the original Jade Wind did, even if it's substantially weaker (only temporary rather than permanent petrification) and therefore less taxing on the user. It shouldn't be adding random other effects that weren't associated with the original Jade Wind at all. Shiro is associated with speed and rapid striking, but this is amply represented through other skills and traits.

On 8/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Shao.7236 said:

 

No matter, I still think that Upkeep modifications has more potential, it could increase the DPS of Core while give more slack for elites to play with energy. I have yet to see anyone argue over it and no saying that it's "overdoing it" is not valid, upkeep is probably the LEAST of interesting interaction in their current state and they could be way better than now.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by "upkeep modification" here. It seems that you're suggesting that upkeep skills have a lingering effect when turned off, which... ehhh? Maybe? They'd probably need to increase the activation costs to compensate, which would just make them more front-loaded and thus make it even more complicated to use other skills. Draconic Echo works because facet use is also limited by cooldowns. Could make for an interesting trait, I guess.

[Shao.7236]

10 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Your proposal looks to add CDs to upkeeps (moving farther away from core revenant philosophy) and additionally adds requirements to avoid said CD. This is more complicated than the current system. Additionally, balancing concerns are paramount since you’re also looking to mix upkeeps (ignore the fact this makes no sense/would have to be heavily modified for legends like Ventari, Kalla, Viktor) 

If you truly understand the meaning of it, have you done the math? Considerably have you even put forth the limitations of such idea? Do you understand it or do I need to create a visual example? All you seem to read is CD and nothing else, do you understand the CD is conditional?

* IO + VH can only add so much damage and still require active presence near target to be effective, the increase in damage is at most a noticeable but not broken change that can help core get in range of elites without breaking elites

* Ventari tablet always deserved more slack on legend swap, especially with how all skills are delayed and Protective Solace according to you doesn't respect the "philosophy" but we gonna let that one slide again because for some reason that's okay?

* EtD falls in the same category of Vengeful Hammers and certainly is not anymore op as an hybrid option.

* Soulcleave Summit is the only noticeable DPS increase provided you can time everything right without breaking the normal rotation, the trade off exists and you simply don't gain free damage without the complexity added to it. Cancel any upkeep too early for the passive benefit and you'll have to wait for the equivalent of a legend swap and that plays on energy restoration that everyone complains about, you get 50% back for wanting to sacrifice 4 seconds of downtime for 6 seconds of passive. Not only 10 seconds is an ideal number if the passive lasts 6 seconds but running out of energy with an upkeep has ALWAYS set a 4 seconds cooldown on the upkeep, the mechanics are matching habits that already exist. You see, it all falls in place no matter how you look at it, Anet already has existing buffs icons in the status bar as well.

* Herald doesn't need to be touched, all skills are upkeep based and thus making it a trait requirement makes sense.

* Urn can be untouched because it's actually the only skill that has any meaning behind turning it off and Viktors upkeep is also a different case exception once again that deviants from the normal upkeep function, why should it get a free pass?

10 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water just because Anet makes bad changes sometimes. Further, it doesn’t fit what upkeeps are.  It’s a mechanic directly ripped from GW1 and changing it to have alternative functionality would be to essentially make them no longer true upkeeps and thus miss the point of being upkeeps entirely. No herald doesn’t count here since their facets are not just upkeeps but upkeeps+utility skills; a modification by the elite spec to differentiate itself from core mechanics.

No, Herald has been getting constant changes that deviates still, even Quickness that makes little sense but somehow that's fine but who dares ever try to make Core anymore interesting, reducing costs won't make it any better, only the starved elites will benefit from getting a extra button press on Shiro, that's only helping the meta and not the cry for help that core needs.

Herald if anything is half of what Revenant truly is, Renegade is just AoE Revenant and Vindicator is Revenant with training wheels since no one could accept having 1 powerful evade, the biggest skill issue in this profession history so far.

10 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Literally, the much much simpler solution is to just lower the energy costs on skills in PvE to be more reasonable and thus able to be used more often for their actual utility. We shouldn’t redesign an entire core mechanic when a simple energy reduction on certain skills serves the purpose. Keep it simple, as they say. Complicated solutions have a higher chance of adding additional complications, which is not something Revenant needs more of 

It's not complicated, there's nothing complicated about it, if you can wrap your head around mashing 4 keys, you can put two and two together that if you press a button twice (like on Herald which is exactly the same, why are you even using that as an excuse, upkeeps already have said cancel button). Lowering energy costs doesn't jack for DPS and Core proves that having more skills to cast doesn't make it any better when all there is ever to do is play with the same boring energy sink that are upkeeps with nothing in between legends to ever so gently be more useful for once, for real. So far all that's ever argued about is consistency yet nothing is consistent in the the history of anything that has been introduced. If Herald has the right to get constant changes that introduces new contradictory mechanics/buffs into the mix, so does core or anything else.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Shao.7236

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

If you truly understand the meaning of it, have you done the math? Considerably have you even put forth the limitations of such idea? Do you understand it or do I need to create a visual example? All you seem to read is CD and nothing else, do you understand the CD is conditional?

 

I don't truly "understand the meaning of it" because your proposal is not well laid out or easy to understand with how you've written your posts. All I see is complications, more work for Anet, more bugs for the class, and a proposal that doesn't fix anything, just adds for no reason while stepping further outside what Revenant is supposed to encompass

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

No, Herald has been getting constant changes that deviates still, even Quickness that makes little sense but somehow that's fine but who dares ever try to make Core anymore interesting, reducing costs won't make it any better, only the starved elites will benefit from getting a extra button press on Shiro, that's only helping the meta and not the cry for help that core needs.

Herald if anything is half of what Revenant truly is, Renegade is just AoE Revenant and Vindicator is Revenant with training wheels since no one could accept having 1 powerful evade, the biggest skill issue in this profession history so far.

Herald is allowed to be different since it's an elite spec; it's not supposed to function identically to Core, Ren, or Vindi. This is just a made up issue by you to justify giving core new things for no reason.

By the way, Core will never be as strong as the Elites in PvE simply because it doesn't have the damage modifiers the elites do. None of the 3rd Core traitlines are good enough to replace an Elite line in PvE and changing upkeeps to overlap and stay around passively won't change that. It's clear you're not mainly a PvE player (which is fine!) or else you'd realize this. I also don't get why you're in a PvE thread asking for complete reworks of class mechanics to boost Core when you're not mainly a PvE player. Core will almost always be behind Elites on each profession simply due to how the system has worked. This is fine in PvE

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

 Lowering energy costs doesn't jack for DPS and Core proves that having more skills to cast doesn't make it any better when all there is ever to do is play with the same boring energy sink that are upkeeps with nothing in between legends to ever so gently be more useful for once, for real.

This sentence proves you don't get what people are asking for. None of the reasonable PvE proposals in here are looking to "do jack for DPS" by lowering energy costs. It's literally looking to give UTILITY its ability to be used as UTILITY without losing a big chunk of dps while using UTILITY. Literally the changes just want to be able to use Phase Traversal as a gap closer or Jade Winds as a stun MORE OFTEN than they're used now. The proposals are not looking to add raw dps or make rotations more complicated, but to provide the ability to use utility for LESS of a dps tradeoff. Lower costs does not = more dps, just better access to utility and higher uptime on dps since gap closers (phase traversal) can be used more freely

Lastly, keep solutions simple. No need to rework a class mechanic to fix something that lowering energy costs a bit fixes

Edited August 31, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054