Skyscale Lore and SotO

[Gibson.4036]

As far as I understand, Skyscales were essentially fantasy creatures, only alive in the infinite possibilities of the mists, until a couple elder dragons went maunching through reality. They manifested into the physical world at Dragonfall because of this.

The commander, then, was the first to tame a descendent of these quasi-real creatures, their offspring being reality-stable, unlike the first generation. Presumably, Gorrik spread the knowledge of how to do this after working it out with the Commmander, which explains the plethora of heroes riding them around the world.

But now, with pet skyscales appearing in Garenhoff, I'm very curious about how SotO skyscale lore is going to intersect with Dragonfall skyscale lore.

Have the wizards of the Astral Ward always had skyscale mounts? Do they know how to pull them out of the mists and keep them stable so they don't die prematurely? Or have they raised them from the descendants of accidental skyscale incursions from their own rift meddling? What will they think of ground-dwellers showing up already riding skyscales? How are the townsfolk of Garenhoff aquiring skyscales if the tower is gone? Will Dragonfall's skyscale lore be retconned or hand-waved in some way?

I know I miss a bunch of lore detail. Maybe I've got something skyscale completely wrong in my head.

I know no one has answers yet. Just sharing some things I'm wondering.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Zok.4956]

24 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Will Dragonfall's skyscale lore be retconned or hand-waved in some way?

Yes.

[mandala.8507]

21 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Will Dragonfall's skyscale lore be retconned or hand-waved in some way?

I'm not sure why they would need to hand-wave it. Those skyscales died because they were magically aged to maturity, and then we collected their eggs which were not affected and reared new skyscales from those.

The incubation methods could easily be abridged by exposing them to a controlled dose of Void magic or something, and beyond that there's not really anything they have to be concerned about lore-wise, because we're once again dealing with intrusions from the Mists. I'm sure they came up with something decent to ground their acquisition in the lore of the expansion without bulldozing the lore they established in season 4.

I'm not worried about it, tbh. Skyscale lore is very low on the priority list of things to worry about.

[Gibson.4036]

7 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'm not sure why they would need to hand-wave it. Those skyscales died because they were magically aged to maturity, and then we collected their eggs which were not affected and reared new skyscales from those.

The incubation methods could easily be abridged by exposing them to a controlled dose of Void magic or something, and beyond that there's not really anything they have to be concerned about lore-wise, because we're once again dealing with intrusions from the Mists. I'm sure they came up with something decent to ground their acquisition in the lore of the expansion without bulldozing the lore they established in season 4.

I'm not worried about it, tbh. Skyscale lore is very low on the priority list of things to worry about.

Worry is strong a strong word. But I'm very curious.

We're going from a place where skyscales were a novel thing that emerged from the Commander's story, to something that seems to have been common among a group of people somewhere else. Kinda interesting that it mirrors the game mechanic change from "the legendary mount" to "streamlined acquisition".

I'm not one who begrudges the mechanical change. I'm glad my daughter might someday get a skyscale much more easily than my son and I did.

But I am fascinated to find out how they handle it from a lore/story point of view.

The first parallel that comes to mind is jade tech. We went from Asura uniquely having magitech, to discovering that Canthan humans had developed their own independently. While I don't have a problem with parallel tech development, waypoints and golem/mechs are close enough that it does feel like it diminished the Asura a bit, and there was some hand-waving involved.

[mandala.8507]

2 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

While I don't have a problem with parallel tech development, waypoints and golem/mechs are close enough that it does feel like it diminished the Asura a bit, and there was some hand-waving involved.

I strongly disagree with this statement.

[Gibson.4036]

3 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I strongly disagree with this statement.

Cool. I always hold on to the possiblity that I missed some good explanations in game.

Maybe there will be some good ones with the Skyscale that make it so the SotO doesn't diminish the Commander's skyscale journey.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Nosrorav.4703]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

As far as I understand, Skyscales were essentially fantasy creatures, only alive in the infinite possibilities of the mists, until a couple elder dragons went maunching through reality. They manifested into the physical world at Dragonfall because of this.

The commander, then, was the first to tame a descendent of these quasi-real creatures, their offspring being reality-stable, unlike the first generation. Presumably, Gorrik spread the knowledge of how to do this after working it out with the Commmander, which explains the plethora of heroes riding them around the world.

Not quite how I would have worded it, because the skyscales weren't "unstable". They were just rapidly aging because of their unusual birth into existence by the Mists. Second generation simply grew up at a normal (or well, "normal" as it was still pretty fast) rate.

They took the effort to write in an explanation that the raptors and springers seen in Cantha were imported by Zephyrite traders when they last showed up years ago (between Cutthroat Politics and Festival of the Four Winds 2014). I'm sure they'll do similar this time, and it's likely that's why we're seeing Skyscales in Garrenhoff now.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

 

The first parallel that comes to mind is jade tech. We went from Asura uniquely having magitech, to discovering that Canthan humans had developed their own independently. While I don't have a problem with parallel tech development, waypoints and golem/mechs are close enough that it does feel like it diminished the Asura a bit, and there was some hand-waving involved.

Not totally independent from what I remember, Joon did get ahold of Asura research from working with Mai I think. 

[Kalavier.1097]

The commander was involved in the job of ensuring there was a second generation of Skyscales, but afterwards they spread on their own and became a stable population. Mount skins are mostly canon, and Skyscales feed off magic and regular food. So they've spread around and thrived.

6 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

The first parallel that comes to mind is jade tech. We went from Asura uniquely having magitech, to discovering that Canthan humans had developed their own independently. While I don't have a problem with parallel tech development, waypoints and golem/mechs are close enough that it does feel like it diminished the Asura a bit, and there was some hand-waving involved.

It didn't diminish the Asura at all, as jade tech is not better, just more user-friendly and isn't built with 15 extra steps involved just to prove Bob is smarter then Jimmy.

Asura have famously been isolated in terms of sharing their tech, where Jade Tech is freely shared and taught. 

[EdwinLi.1284]

It is not that complicated when going back to the origins of the second generation of Skyscales born because of the Commander's actions to obtain a Skyscale mount.

The 2nd generation were stable and can live longer and normal lives compared to first generation that died early due to their flaws.

Years has also past since events of that day (GW2 does follow time flow of our world so they do account for 1 year on Earth is 1 year in GW2) so at this point enough the different skyscales born in the 2nd generation and maybe 3rd generation at this point would have settled in Tyria so that people started to take them in as pet assuming they know how to properly handle skyscales as pets.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

the statement that cantha developed their technology independantly from the asura is incorrect, as stated by in-game lore.

 

joon has documents from the asura dating back to over a century, perhaps even to the era of the first game, 260 years ago. i'm not sure why players think most asura tech is recent, they had asura gates functional by eye of the north, and rata sum is just the most practical application of it.

 

(even then, rata sum is mostly for the comfort of its leadership, the arcane council, and not its citizens.)

 

from what we've seen, the canthan technology is actually more dated, but also alot more user friendly, which makes it more advanced. people often seem to confuse advancement with technological complexity and maturity, but that's not the case. what makes an advanced civlisation is how easy the civilians (hence, civilisation) have access to the technology and can use it to improve their every day lives, and this is where asura tech falls flat on its face.

 

its impressive, but impractical, and often prone to problems (even killing its users), while canthan technology is refined, resiliant, safe and easy to use despite being built on a more dated base, though perhaps that's exactly what allowed for such refinement.

Edited August 2, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Nosrorav.4703]

14 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

It didn't diminish the Asura at all, as jade tech is not better, just more user-friendly and isn't built with 15 extra steps involved just to prove Bob is smarter then Jimmy.

Asura have famously been isolated in terms of sharing their tech, where Jade Tech is freely shared and taught. 

I would argue that jade tech is better, because it has a much wider application of uses, most of which are just modern 2000s technology slapped with a "but it's jade tech" addendum in visuals.
Asuratech doesn't have ovens, microwaves, refrigerators, etc.
In 1319 AE, in Edge of Destiny, the asura were just inventing an icebox for crying out loud - a primitive non-electric version of the refrigerator that requires putting ice in it, except for the asura it was using an ice magic crystal "battery" of sorts that would still need to be swapped out. And rewarded the highest "recognition" of being promoted to Arcane Council member for it.
And unlike asuratech, it takes a literal magical singularity known as the Void to make jadetech begin to go haywire, so it has superior QA too.

19 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Not totally independent from what I remember, Joon did get ahold of Asura research from working with Mai I think. 

Pretty sure that was just player theory? Also the timeline wouldn't make sense because jadetech is 18 years old as of EoD, and the Aetherblades didn't show up in Canthan until second half of Season 4 (4 years before EoD).

Edited August 2, 2023 by Nosrorav.4703

[Luthan.5236]

Skyscales have something to do with magic. Wizards usually also deal with magic. I'm sure ArenaNet will manage to connect them somehow.

[SunRoamer.5103]

7 hours ago, Nosrorav.4703 said:

Pretty sure that was just player theory? Also the timeline wouldn't make sense because jadetech is 18 years old as of EoD, and the Aetherblades didn't show up in Canthan until second half of Season 4 (4 years before EoD).

I'm not sure she received it from Mai specifically (or rather, only from Mai), but there are several mentions of Joon having read asuran research - we can find an annotated version of Novvi's Science Journal, and previous dialogue with Taimi also has her confirming that she read Glixx Lectures on Magnetism. These might have made their way over much earlier thanks to the Zephyrites (or other unknown channels).

For dialogue pointing out Mai bringing her something, there are the Observations on the Steam Device and Steam Creature, which somehow led to some modifications to the Jade Mech designs (obviously meaning that Jade Mechs already were a thing well before this).

There might be other instances of Joon talking about asuran research. For me personally, it felt like it was implied that Joon's achievements were building on asuran magitech to some degree - even if it were only older asuran research and technology from the time of GW1.

Edited August 2, 2023 by SunRoamer.5103
Combined Yu Joon to Yoon accidentally.

[mandala.8507]

43 minutes ago, SunRoamer.5103 said:

Yoon

New Goldclaw character unlocked.

[Danikat.8537]

21 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

It is not that complicated when going back to the origins of the second generation of Skyscales born because of the Commander's actions to obtain a Skyscale mount.

The 2nd generation were stable and can live longer and normal lives compared to first generation that died early due to their flaws.

Years has also past since events of that day (GW2 does follow time flow of our world so they do account for 1 year on Earth is 1 year in GW2) so at this point enough the different skyscales born in the 2nd generation and maybe 3rd generation at this point would have settled in Tyria so that people started to take them in as pet assuming they know how to properly handle skyscales as pets.

That's a very good point - time passes in Tyria at a roughly equal rate to real life. During the personal story airships and hard light holograms were new inventions, a few years later they were...well not exactly common, it's still only governments and dedicated organisations like the Aetherblades who have airships, but they're more widespread and varied than they were and it wouldn't be surprising for one to show up in the story.

War Eternal took place in 1332 AE, the Wizard's Tower disappeared in 1336 AE, so there's been 4 years for skyscales to spread and breed in Tyria and probably in the Mists as well. Which means the Astral Ward using them as mounts, even raising their own, doesn't have to pre-date the commander's first enounter with them or change the law about how they were discovered.

[Danikat.8537]

8 hours ago, Nosrorav.4703 said:

I would argue that jade tech is better, because it has a much wider application of uses, most of which are just modern 2000s technology slapped with a "but it's jade tech" addendum in visuals.
Asuratech doesn't have ovens, microwaves, refrigerators, etc.
In 1319 AE, in Edge of Destiny, the asura were just inventing an icebox for crying out loud - a primitive non-electric version of the refrigerator that requires putting ice in it, except for the asura it was using an ice magic crystal "battery" of sorts that would still need to be swapped out. And rewarded the highest "recognition" of being promoted to Arcane Council member for it.
And unlike asuratech, it takes a literal magical singularity known as the Void to make jadetech begin to go haywire, so it has superior QA too.

I can't help wondering if that's an example of asuran interests and priorities rather than ability. It reminds me of the story used to charactertise the Shee, a race of brilliant geneticists from the Creatures games. To stop mice eating their biscuits they engineered a retrovirus to change the genetics of the mice so they only ate old tea bags. From a human perspective it's an absurdly convoluted solution, but the Shee would never have imagined building a mouse trap.

According to the Wiki before coming to the surface asura trapped wild game and ate a stone-like fungus so it's possible that the idea of needing to store food for an extended period of time is relatively new to them and probably not a very interesting topic for most their inventors.

[EdwinLi.1284]

27 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

That's a very good point - time passes in Tyria at a roughly equal rate to real life. During the personal story airships and hard light holograms were new inventions, a few years later they were...well not exactly common, it's still only governments and dedicated organisations like the Aetherblades who have airships, but they're more widespread and varied than they were and it wouldn't be surprising for one to show up in the story.

War Eternal took place in 1332 AE, the Wizard's Tower disappeared in 1336 AE, so there's been 4 years for skyscales to spread and breed in Tyria and probably in the Mists as well. Which means the Astral Ward using them as mounts, even raising their own, doesn't have to pre-date the commander's first enounter with them or change the law about how they were discovered.

I think that is one of the things people forget to account for sometimes when looking at current lore. 

Time for when certain things happened before current events is the important part when accounting for why things are now. We experience alot of times the moment when something is "created" or "invented" and as the story progress, we also see how more commonly used they become over the years storyline wise as well. The things we see during the Zhaitan arc, such as airships and certain other technologies such as the improved Combat Suit Golems, when they were recently invented are seen as more standard tools now as well in current events even for daily life use.

The Skyscales being more common to normal life now is one of those aspects in lore since 4 years has passed which gives plenty of time for certain people and organizations to start using them as standard travel mounts. Not to mention maybe have them as pets since they are probably easier to manage compared to certain animals a person can choose as a pet.

Edited August 2, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I can't help wondering if that's an example of asuran interests and priorities rather than ability. It reminds me of the story used to charactertise the Shee, a race of brilliant geneticists from the Creatures games. To stop mice eating their biscuits they engineered a retrovirus to change the genetics of the mice so they only ate old tea bags. From a human perspective it's an absurdly convoluted solution, but the Shee would never have imagined building a mouse trap.

According to the Wiki before coming to the surface asura trapped wild game and ate a stone-like fungus so it's possible that the idea of needing to store food for an extended period of time is relatively new to them and probably not a very interesting topic for most their inventors.

Asura develop things not as needed by the community, but as needed by the person. IIRC there is some who talk about a microwave like device in Rata sum? We know explicitly that they love to add steps to things to prove how much smarter they are, and even invent completely worthless items just to spite others.

As my example goes "Yes I built a combat golem that serves perfect toast. SCREW YOU BLEKK FOR SAYING I COULDN'T!"

It's even kinda implied when Taimi talks about Xunlai's medical department and ties back to why she built Scruffy originally. Asura just don't bother developing things in mind for "Everybody" unless it involves their own glory/bank account. She built scruffy to get around, and there wasn't any tech to really help reduce her pain.

15 hours ago, Nosrorav.4703 said:

I would argue that jade tech is better, because it has a much wider application of uses, most of which are just modern 2000s technology slapped with a "but it's jade tech" addendum in visuals.
Asuratech doesn't have ovens, microwaves, refrigerators, etc.
In 1319 AE, in Edge of Destiny, the asura were just inventing an icebox for crying out loud - a primitive non-electric version of the refrigerator that requires putting ice in it, except for the asura it was using an ice magic crystal "battery" of sorts that would still need to be swapped out. And rewarded the highest "recognition" of being promoted to Arcane Council member for it.

Being entirely fair, it wasn't the invention that got that reward. It was the fact it was used to kill an incredibly dangerous destroyer. And it was Snaff using that device to kitten his way out of the reward by claiming it was all thanks to the other guy, and HE should get the reward. And the other guy was dumb enough to accept it and became placed on the council in charge of sewage systems while Snaff and the former councilmember walked away laughing.

6 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

I think that is one of the things people forget to account for sometimes when looking at current lore. 

Time for when certain things happened before current events is the important part when accounting for why things are now. We experience alot of times the moment when something is "created" or "invented" and as the story progress, we also see how more commonly used they become over the years storyline wise as well. The things we see during the Zhaitan arc, such as airships and certain other technologies such as the improved Combat Suit Golems, when they were recently invented are seen as more standard tools now as well in current events even for daily life use.

The Skyscales being more common to normal life now is one of those aspects in lore since 4 years has passed which gives plenty of time for certain people and organizations to start using them as standard travel mounts. Not to mention maybe have them as pets since they are probably easier to manage compared to certain animals a person can choose as a pet.

Also in Grothmar we have the Priory  using Skyscales (or a skyscale) to explore Kralk's sleeping spot. Some take it to imply the Priory has been raising/training Skyscales as well.

In Festival of the four winds we saw the griffons started to go from being a rare mount to more widespread with the Sunspears fully emerging once more.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 8/1/2023 at 5:50 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

Cool. I always hold on to the possiblity that I missed some good explanations in game.

Maybe there will be some good ones with the Skyscale that make it so the SotO doesn't diminish the Commander's skyscale journey.

You overrate the skyscale a little to much. 

 

[Kalavier.1097]

On 8/1/2023 at 11:50 AM, Gibson.4036 said:

Cool. I always hold on to the possiblity that I missed some good explanations in game.

Maybe there will be some good ones with the Skyscale that make it so the SotO doesn't diminish the Commander's skyscale journey.

How does it diminish the commander at all? Seriously do explain this because this makes zero sense at all.

34 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

You overrate the skyscale a little to much. 

 

I can only guess he thinks the commander should be the only one with the skyscale even though we know the priory has some?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

SoTO skyscales are most likely a breed that the Astral Ward encountered in the MIsts, tamed, and then carefully reared in their archipelago. The same events that caused the tower to disappear also probably allowed their breed of skyscale to slip down to Garenhoff. 

[Gibson.4036]

9 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

How does it diminish the commander at all? Seriously do explain this because this makes zero sense at all.

I can only guess he thinks the commander should be the only one with the skyscale even though we know the priory has some?

Not at all. As I mentioned, I expect that once the Commander and Gorik learned to train the first offspring of the original skyscales, the information (and stock) spread quickly, leading to them being used elsewhere. Advances spread and get adopted.

Also, as stated, I know I miss lore things as I play through. I'm still not convinced "Oh, Joon had some Asura treatises" isn't pretty much a hand-wave to catch Jade tech up with, and even surpass, Asura tech, but it's something I missed and I'm glad people have brought it up.

So.... maybe I misunderstoood, but what I took from the skyscale story as presented is that sksycales manifesting out of the mists into the material world was a unique occurence from Kralk and Aurene punching in and out of the mists. From there, Gorrik and the Commander are the first to figure out how to raise and train the first generation of offspring. A unique byproduct of a dangerous time turned out to a be a beneficial thing with the work of a genius and a dynamic person.

It doesn't diminish this story in the least if people then go on to adopt riding skyscales from there. What does seem like it would diminish the story is if another culture has been pulling skyscales out of the mists all along and riding them around.

Like, tell me you discovered some mould growing on your window-sill actually has revolutionary powers to combat bacterial infections in humans! And I'm like, yeah, dude, Fleming figured that 95 years ago, and you can go down to the Walgreens and get yourself some antibiotics when you need it. Woohoo?

Edited August 3, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Also, as stated, I know I miss lore things as I play through. I'm still not convinced "Oh, Joon had some Asura treatises" isn't pretty much a hand-wave to catch Jade tech up with, and even surpass, Asura tech, but it's something I missed and I'm glad people have brought it up.

 

Jade Tech only surpasses Asura tech in that it is built to be used by the public and they don't layer it in a ton of BS designed to show off how smart they are. I feel like a lot of people fell for the Asura propaganda about their intelligence and forget they never LET anybody else learn how their tech works, or tried making it easier.

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Not at all. As I mentioned, I expect that once the Commander and Gorik learned to train the first offspring of the original skyscales, the information (and stock) spread quickly, leading to them being used elsewhere. Advances spread and get adopted.

So.... maybe I misunderstoood, but what I took from the skyscale story as presented is that sksycales manifesting out of the mists into the material world was a unique occurence from Kralk and Aurene punching in and out of the mists. From there, Gorrik and the Commander are the first to figure out how to raise and train the first generation of offspring. A unique byproduct of a dangerous time turned out to a be a beneficial thing with the work of a genius and a dynamic person.

It doesn't diminish this story in the least if people then go on to adopt riding skyscales from there. What does seem like it would diminish the story is if another culture has been pulling skyscales out of the mists all along and riding them around.

Like, tell me you discovered some mould growing on your window-sill actually has revolutionary powers to combat bacterial infections in humans! And I'm like, yeah, dude, Fleming figured that 95 years ago, and you can go down to the Walgreens and get yourself some antibiotics when you need it. Woohoo?

We know nothing of the Astral Ward and their relations to Skyscales, which very well may literally just be "When they spread across Tyria, the Astral Ward noted they'd be useful and got some for their own bases."

Even if they had the mist-born Skyscales beforehand, that doesn't diminish things as they are a hidden order dedicated to fighting the mists. Still, as they were born at Dragonfall, they haven't been around long either way.

I'd be shocked if they actually tried to say the Astral ward has had skyscales for longer then that.

[EdwinLi.1284]

16 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Not at all. As I mentioned, I expect that once the Commander and Gorik learned to train the first offspring of the original skyscales, the information (and stock) spread quickly, leading to them being used elsewhere. Advances spread and get adopted.

Also, as stated, I know I miss lore things as I play through. I'm still not convinced "Oh, Joon had some Asura treatises" isn't pretty much a hand-wave to catch Jade tech up with, and even surpass, Asura tech, but it's something I missed and I'm glad people have brought it up.

So.... maybe I misunderstoood, but what I took from the skyscale story as presented is that sksycales manifesting out of the mists into the material world was a unique occurence from Kralk and Aurene punching in and out of the mists. From there, Gorrik and the Commander are the first to figure out how to raise and train the first generation of offspring. A unique byproduct of a dangerous time turned out to a be a beneficial thing with the work of a genius and a dynamic person.

It doesn't diminish this story in the least if people then go on to adopt riding skyscales from there. What does seem like it would diminish the story is if another culture has been pulling skyscales out of the mists all along and riding them around.

Like, tell me you discovered some mould growing on your window-sill actually has revolutionary powers to combat bacterial infections in humans! And I'm like, yeah, dude, Fleming figured that 95 years ago, and you can go down to the Walgreens and get yourself some antibiotics when you need it. Woohoo?

They mentioned already, by the new dialogues for NPCs in Kessex Hill, that it was common for Isgarren to travel out of Wizard tower for supplies and keep up with current events outside of Wizard tower.

It will be no surprise if he started to incorporate the Skyscales during the 4 years since their creation. Keep in mind, 4 years have passed since the creation of Skyscales which should have been enough time for Isgarren to incorporate the Skyscales into his organization. Other organizations and even citizens started to incorporate Skyscales as well either for transportation, pets, and etc as we seen over time.

Edited August 4, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284