Different Ranks for Different Classes

[Maxwell.8564]

Any chance the ranking system can be changed such that each person would need to rank for every main class? This way, if someone is amazing with Guardian and in platinum, but they are a silver level with Mesmer, they would be able to play as the Mesmer in a team game that is better for their skill. This, in my opinion, could help with the balance in games. Just a thought. ❤️ 

[Rhailex.2513]

3 hours ago, Maxwell.8564 said:

Any chance the ranking system can be changed such that each person would need to rank for every main class? This way, if someone is amazing with Guardian and in platinum, but they are a silver level with Mesmer, they would be able to play as the Mesmer in a team game that is better for their skill. This, in my opinion, could help with the balance in games. Just a thought. ❤️ 

If you queue up with 2 soulbeasts in a party for ranked, you will most likely be matched with a team that also have 2 soulbeasts.

The system keeps track of which specs perform.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

This would be great. I almost only play Elementalist/Tempest. If I would play other professions in PvP I will probably end up in bronze as I'm newbie with them. My experience with Elementalist is irrelevant on other professions.

Edited August 15, 2023 by TheQuickFox.3826

[Eddbopkins.2630]

This seems like a interestingly good idea however one flaw. It requires new code and man hours to establish this. Which in reality is an unattainable goal for anet. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Endo.1652]

Youd def have to eliminate being able to swap classes for this to work.

[atshadow.8695]

10 minutes ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

Youd def have to eliminate being able to swap classes for this to work.

idd, the concept sounds good though. I don't think eliminating class swapping would be bad either.

[bruakumfd.4817]

I honestly think this would be a good idea too. While I do my best to give every profession a fair shake, Necro and Ele are the only ones that click with me. (I'm starting to love my Herald, though.) I also agree that you'd have to stop people from saying ,"Oh, you thought I was bad? That Druid build was just my meme build." then swapping specs. 

[Maxwell.8564]

On 8/15/2023 at 3:35 AM, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

This would be great. I almost only play Elementalist/Tempest. If I would play other professions in PvP I will probably end up in bronze as I'm newbie with them. My experience with Elementalist is irrelevant on other professions.

Yup! This is exactly the reason for the idea. I hope the implement it so that teams are even more often! 😄 

[deathdealer.2197]

WWouldmake playing alts alot more fun too, though i'm guessibg it wont happen as it would become yet another way to manipulate matches.

In a perfect world this would be nice 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 8/15/2023 at 1:40 AM, Maxwell.8564 said:

Any chance the ranking system can be changed such that each person would need to rank for every main class? This way, if someone is amazing with Guardian and in platinum, but they are a silver level with Mesmer, they would be able to play as the Mesmer in a team game that is better for their skill. This, in my opinion, could help with the balance in games. Just a thought. ❤️ 

It disgusts me that your post has a bunch of upvotes.

Not that you're wrong, but that the community lacks enough knowledge to be able to identify the massive exploitation that this suggestion would be used for. IE: I duo queue with another plat+ player. We both queue in as our worst classes that we purposely throw games on to keep that ELO very very low. Then once we've been seeded into the match, we swap to the classes we play at plat2+ level.

@Multicolorhipster.9751 @Azure The Heartless.3261 This is another example of what I mentioned in that other thread, about people making comments/statements that get a ton of upvotes because people don't know any better.

[Ragebru.1397]

23 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Then once we've been seeded into the match, we swap to the classes we play at plat2+ level.

As a couple others have suggested, the concept would stick that you would not be able to swap characters/specs anymore. Think it was pretty obvious that OP was suggesting the same idea by stating that you would be tied to a rank based off your sole class. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Ragebru.1397

[aymnad.9023]

I have been wondering if there is something like that already. During PoF I noticed that a 4W 6L on a profession I played a lot in the previous expansions would make me start gold 3 while a 4L 6W on a profession I never played made me start gold 2 at best.

The thing about a rank fully tied to a profession is the same as role queue in my opinion. How do you make it work? Do you forbid profession swap? Do you forbid even build / stat swap? I think it just limits too much. I started playing my seasons on 1 or 2 builds max during PoF and I think this is the only way to have an experience close to what is suggested.

Edited September 26, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 minutes ago, Ragebru.1397 said:

As a couple others have suggested, the concept would stick that you would not be able to swap characters/specs anymore. Think it was pretty obvious that OP was suggesting the same idea by stating that you would be tied to a rank based off your sole class. 

Still not getting it are ya?

There are several ways to exploit such a system by yourself, not just the one example I gave.

Here is another one for you: I play down all 3 of the classes I play, into very very low ELO. When the season flips, I'll have probably about 120 games worth of serious smurfing capability by myself without needing an alt account without even needing to duo queue.

The list goes on of ways in which this would obviously complicate the algorithm worse than it's already complicated.

[Ragebru.1397]

37 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Here is another one for you: I play down all 3 of the classes I play, into very very low ELO. When the season flips, I'll have probably about 120 games worth of serious smurfing capability by myself without needing an alt account without even needing to duo queue.

You can already do this, so kind of a moot point. To be fair, any major redesign of the ranked structure would likely have to incur a fresh wipe of current ranking on all players (or as suggested in this thread, classes). The post does not say that each individual character would have its own rank, but that a class would be ranked. ie. You have 3 guardians on your account, they would all be the same rank. 

 

To state that a solution can't be made simply because the game's algorithm is wack, doesn't justify letting the game mode continue to stagnate. My best class has always been support tempest, which I hardly play anymore- so should it be fair to everyone else when I hop on my guardian who has only 150 games total? No ranked game mode in any game is void of trolling or smurfing. Players who want to waste their time smurfing to buff their ego will undoubtedly find a means to achieve their goal. They are outliers. Structure and design should not be based off of outliers. 

 

edit: even in League of Legends, more often than not when you get a smurf on the enemy team- you usually end up with one as well. Algorithms can always be adjusted/reworked to compensate the game mode. ie. if a player is consistently getting 3 or 4 top stats in every game compared to everyone else- they would be that outlier. I'm sure they can design some way to recognize this and make sure that both teams have that "mvp" available upon queue. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Ragebru.1397

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Ragebru.1397 said:

As a couple others have suggested, the concept would stick that you would not be able to swap characters/specs anymore. Think it was pretty obvious that OP was suggesting the same idea by stating that you would be tied to a rank based off your sole class. 

This is indeed the big issue that certain people don't want to give up.  

Much like duo que, pre-match class swapping should not be a thing--for a lot of reasons, the not the least of which is the swapper usually starts the match 10-30 seconds late and throws everything off.

They need to revamp the UI so you know which classes are in a comp prior to match start, and then a grace period for switching--just like you have with map selection.  Once you are in a match, you are locked in, no ifs ands or buts. 

This would also alleviate the matchmaker having to try to guess and pair like classes only to have them swapped out when you realize you have two rangers or two thieves on a team--or something like three core guards for whatever asinine reason.  

I think having rank per class makes a lot of sense, especially since a lot of people only multiclass in sPvP for lege requirement--I know I felt bad on a few occasions playing classes I never had before when I got the backpack, almost all those games were losses lol. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Sidetrack.2563]

16 minutes ago, Ragebru.1397 said:

You can already do this, so kind of a moot point. To be fair, any major redesign of the ranked structure would likely have to incur a fresh wipe of current ranking on all players (or as suggested in this thread, classes). The post does not say that each individual character would have its own rank, but that a class would be ranked. ie. You have 3 guardians on your account, they would all be the same rank. 

 

To state that a solution can't be made simply because the game's algorithm is wack, doesn't justify letting the game mode continue to stagnate. My best class has always been support tempest, which I hardly play anymore- so should it be fair to everyone else when I hop on my guardian who has only 150 games total? No ranked game mode in any game is void of trolling or smurfing. Players who want to waste their time smurfing to buff their ego will undoubtedly find a means to achieve their goal. They are outliers. Structure and design should not be based off of outliers. 

 

edit: even in League of Legends, more often than not when you get a smurf on the enemy team- you usually end up with one as well. Algorithms can always be adjusted/reworked to compensate the game mode. ie. if a player is consistently getting 3 or 4 top stats in every game compared to everyone else- they would be that outlier. I'm sure they can design some way to recognize this and make sure that both teams have that "mvp" available upon queue. 

I also agree here, It's not like ranked as it is, is any better to begin with either. you don't evolve the game if you don't try new things! Not that i'm saying there won't be people who abuse it, there are people who abuse the current one. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to alleviate the issues discussed.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

7 hours ago, Ragebru.1397 said:

You can already do this, so kind of a moot point

No, you can't.

The game has account-wide MMR. If you're really good and play to p2 on a Warrior and then try to play a Mesmer that you've never played before, it will still seed you as a 1600 player.

That's what this entire thread is about, having individual class MMR instead of account-wide MMR.

[Mount Mazama.2917]

People are already manipulating the system though, I think it would be better to advocate for prosecution of exploiters rather than discrediting potential changes because manipulation could occur. It will occur and it already does. It's not just this game either. Every 'ladder' that is competitive (not just games) can and will be exploited no matter what. This idea to me doesn't really seem that bad assuming you lock people into their class when they queue . There are already throwers that then smurf for many games after throwing. They would have to rinse and repeat this process on each class they play and they currently need to rinse and repeat once their account climbs. throwing many games consistently should be a ban worthy offense which is really easy to track as any mmr system can tell how much your performance is changing game by game.  As someone who likes playing PvP and also class hopping I would like to have an option to play on my less played classes without ruining the experience of myself and everyone on my team even in unrated this would occur as the whole point of a rating system is to make matches as even as possible.

Final thoughts: We don't really know how it would impact the system as it has not been tried before. You have a hypothesis just as any one else does and it would require experimentation to further understanding. No one here can claim to know for sure exactly how it will play out. Most people believe their foresight is better than it is.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Mount Mazama.2917
final thoughts.

[Maxwell.8564]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:03 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It disgusts me that your post has a bunch of upvotes.

Not that you're wrong, but that the community lacks enough knowledge to be able to identify the massive exploitation that this suggestion would be used for. IE: I duo queue with another plat+ player. We both queue in as our worst classes that we purposely throw games on to keep that ELO very very low. Then once we've been seeded into the match, we swap to the classes we play at plat2+ level.

@Multicolorhipster.9751 @Azure The Heartless.3261 This is another example of what I mentioned in that other thread, about people making comments/statements that get a ton of upvotes because people don't know any better.

There will always be someone out there that takes advantage of rules - in gaming and IRL, of course. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be implemented. The suggestion was an idea to maybe help the even the 5v5 matches in PvP.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

The hell is wrong with you guys?

Everyone is saying: "We know it will be exploited but let's do it anyway".

This is a ridiculous & stupid statement to make because what it is saying is: "Let's go ahead and make the match making worse than it already is".

I'd also like to point out the absolutely disgusting nature of this thread. People are making suggestions that would obviously create much worse match making than we already have and those suggestions are getting a ton of upvotes. Then people who are pointing out the reality of the situation and speaking truth are getting pure downvotes.

It's threads like this that justify the idea of "never listen to forum users".

Edited September 28, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Mount Mazama.2917]

You have no evidence other that "trust be bro" that this will objectively make the system worse for most players. I suggested doing an experiment like say a "beta" that runs along side normal match making as it is to compare. What has been said is every system will be exploited no matter what and the current one is being exploited. You would have much more success in convincing us why this is a terrible idea other than talking down to everyone like you have some dietetic knowledge that and insight that no one else sees. You gave an example, someone offered a solution you said "there are so many more ways". I agree there likely are, maybe  have a conversation and go into what you full list of concerns are and see if anyone has good ideas to solve the problem? That's the basis of a constructive conversation, you are trying to shut down the conversation completely by throwing insults and inciting fear of how much worse it might be.

I am not saying you are definitely wrong in this case, and if you are right I understand the frustration but you are doing a very poor job of convincing people or trying to foster positive conversation, which is the point of a forum. If those who are consistently talking about how bad the average forum users ideas are they would be much better off learning to argue their points effectively than having a melt down and throwing insults. Most of the posts around here that make blanket statements about how stupid everyone here is generally are very poor at formulating their views opinions and arguments in a way that would be convincing to anyone who doesn't already agree with them.

After thought: Once again as I stated in the previous post, the solution is obviously to take action against the exploiters. The ways things are it seems like this won't be done so honestly with that in mind the chances of them changing this in reality are close to zero. Realistically everything you have said so far comes down to people gaming the new system but if they decided to actually clean up PvP and work on making a better system they would be wise to also take action against system exploiters. Which can be done, and is done in other games. People obviously have different skill levels on different classes on it head this idea is not a bad one.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Mount Mazama.2917

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The hell is wrong with you guys?

Everyone is saying: "We know it will be exploited but let's do it anyway".

This is a ridiculous & stupid statement to make because what it is saying is: "Let's go ahead and make the match making worse than it already is".

I'd also like to point out the absolutely disgusting nature of this thread. People are making suggestions that would obviously create much worse match making than we already have and those suggestions are getting a ton of upvotes. Then people who are pointing out the reality of the situation and speaking truth are getting pure downvotes.

It's threads like this that justify the idea of "never listen to forum users".

Well I think the reason is, they aren't playing for the same reason you do in ranked.  Maybe they want to be able to try out other classes in a competitive rank, but play at the level they are in those classes.   I am basically locked into only ever playing engi in ranked because I feel I'd let my team down if I played any other class (which would happen at a much worse level).  You are concerned about win traders, match manipulators, queue dodgers and the like.   So it's a matter of different interest. Some people are more interested in doing the best they can, and not so focused on what others are doing.  It's not crazy, it's just a different priority.

Note that I fully agree though that even if you locked class when you got into the match, doing this would allow people to do alt account surfing hi-jinx without the need to actually have alts.   However anyone interested in that is pretty much using alts.  

[Ragebru.1397]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

"never listen to forum users".

Will gladly take a page from your notebook on that. What's disgusting is your would-be condescending nature and sense of superiority (knows better than all) that you so proudly display, when truth-be-told you are literally just another "forum user". 

As @shion.2084 said, and many others have stated- that @Trevor Boyer.6524 so blatantly disregards, those who are already abusing the system will abuse it no matter what. At least with @Maxwell.8564 suggestion the more casual players would be paired with suboptimal classes of generally higher tier players. At the end of the day, if a class is underperforming, it really doesn't matter who's playing it. A class based tier system would also help justify buffs and nerfs as it would provide an obvious and unconditional report. ie. 60% of rangers are gold or higher, while maybe 60% of mesmers are gold and lower. This would also thin out the majority of forum rants about nerf/buff this, and might lead to actual constructive posts with actual numbers behind them. 

 

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Then people who are pointing out the reality of the situation and speaking truth are getting pure downvotes.

An opinion is just an opinion, doesn't make it everyone else's reality. 

 

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

This is a ridiculous & stupid statement to make because what it is saying is: "Let's go ahead and make the match making worse than it already is".

Saying the system is broken and let's leave it broken is by any way, shape, or form "smarter" how? You seem to be the only one here who is struggling to maintain a civil discussion. 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Ragebru.1397

[Ragebru.1397]

20 hours ago, Mount Mazama.2917 said:

There are already throwers that then smurf for many games after throwing. They would have to rinse and repeat this process on each class they play and they currently need to rinse and repeat once their account climbs. throwing many games consistently should be a ban worthy offense which is really easy to track as any mmr system can tell how much your performance is changing game by game.

This might be the best part about this entire concept. The fact that not only would they have to regrind across multiple accounts, but also across multiple classes. If anything it would more than likely deter that kind of behavior in the long run due to the fact that they would have to invest too much time (limited to by seasons) just to get one class at a desired rank. 

[jdawgie.1835]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:03 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

his is another example of what I mentioned in that other thread, about people making comments/statements that get a ton of upvotes because people don't know any better.

Trevor bro thats the entire forum with the exception of like 10 people.