Different Ranks for Different Classes

[jdawgie.1835]

3 hours ago, Ragebru.1397 said:

Will gladly take a page from your notebook on that. What's disgusting is your would-be condescending nature and sense of superiority (knows better than all) that you so proudly display, when truth-be-told you are literally just another "forum user". 

I say this to you in a non attacking tone - @Trevor Boyer.6524 isnt condescending anyone. Hes sharing an objectively true statement that a majority of what's shared on these forums is shared out of ignorance. Not in an insulting manner, just a generally lack of knowledge or understanding. And as far as attacking, condescending, or superiority, the general forum way of life is to throw insults instead of information after people freak out on here because they are salty about being out played. I have watched Trevor be attacked on these forums countless times. Literally so petty its laughable. Now again hes being called out as some kind of aggressor when he's not. There is so much passive aggressive petty energy on here its like the forum is populated by people who haven't matured past adolescents.  Changing pictures to a class to mock a group of people with different opinions, responding with emotional reactions instead of conversation, asking for classes to be outright deleted instead of asking for specific adjustments or even being willing to elaborate on what bothers them. Then declining to answer once asked. The amount of petty energy it takes to behave like this is wild and its showcased constantly. 

This happens every day here - and Trevor largely will take the high road. As do many others. 

[shion.2084]

21 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

I say this to you in a non attacking tone - @Trevor Boyer.6524 isnt condescending anyone. Hes sharing an objectively true statement that a majority of what's shared on these forums is shared out of ignorance. Not in an insulting manner, just a generally lack of knowledge or understanding. And as far as attacking, condescending, or superiority, the general forum way of life is to throw insults instead of information after people freak out on here because they are salty about being out played. I have watched Trevor be attacked on these forums countless times. Literally so petty its laughable. Now again hes being called out as some kind of aggressor when he's not. There is so much passive aggressive petty energy on here its like the forum is populated by people who haven't matured past adolescents.  Changing pictures to a class to mock a group of people with different opinions, responding with emotional reactions instead of conversation, asking for classes to be outright deleted instead of asking for specific adjustments or even being willing to elaborate on what bothers them. Then declining to answer once asked. The amount of petty energy it takes to behave like this is wild and its showcased constantly. 

This happens every day here - and Trevor largely will take the high road. As do many others. 

Ummm so this was Trevor's post.  You can clearly see that he says the votes of others (ie. their options) are disgusting to him.  He says that the reason people would have such an opinion is that they "lack knowledge" and "don't know any better.

Perhaps they just had different priorities and do understand what this would do, but also understand that it's being done regardless.   It is a very dismissive tone that does not give any credit to the people whom have a contrary opinion.   It is condescending, it's saying you have your opinion because you don't know any better and can't figure things out.   This may or may not be the case and reason for the opinion, but the assumption is here that it absolutely is.  This is the condescension, and it is most certainly condescension.  

```

It disgusts me that your post has a bunch of upvotes.

Not that you're wrong, but that the community lacks enough knowledge to be able to identify the massive exploitation that this suggestion would be used for. IE: I duo queue with another plat+ player. We both queue in as our worst classes that we purposely throw games on to keep that ELO very very low. Then once we've been seeded into the match, we swap to the classes we play at plat2+ level.

@Multicolorhipster.9751 @Azure The Heartless.3261 This is another example of what I mentioned in that other thread, about people making comments/statements that get a ton of upvotes because people don't know any better.
 

```

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

On 9/26/2023 at 1:03 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It disgusts me that your post has a bunch of upvotes.

Not that you're wrong, but that the community lacks enough knowledge to be able to identify the massive exploitation that this suggestion would be used for. IE: I duo queue with another plat+ player. We both queue in as our worst classes that we purposely throw games on to keep that ELO very very low. Then once we've been seeded into the match, we swap to the classes we play at plat2+ level. 

  This is another example of what I mentioned in that other thread, about people making comments/statements that get a ton of upvotes because people don't know any better.

That exploitation wouldn't exist if solo/duoq didn't exist. It's not misinformation, it's populist, and it shouldn't bother you that these are popular opinions.

Do not fret when others succeed in their ways.

 

Upvote for OP, just for this

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

14 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

That exploitation wouldn't exist if solo/duoq didn't exist. It's not misinformation, it's populist, and it shouldn't bother you that these are popular opinions.

Do not fret when others succeed in their ways.

 

Upvote for OP, just for this

What are you even talking about? Solo/duo/triple or 5man wouldn't effect my personal ability to smurf a single class so I could queue in as a bronze 1 and then swap. It would work exactly the same regardless of the queue size.

You guys have some hooga booga unga bunga level interpretations of how things work lately.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

What are you even talking about? Solo/duo/triple or 5man wouldn't effect my personal ability to smurf a single class so I could queue in as a bronze 1 and then swap. It would work exactly the same regardless of the queue size.

You guys have some hooga booga unga bunga voodoo level interpretations of how things work lately.

Smurfing as a soloq is completely pointless unless you were challenging yourself to climb on another acc. With a duo or team of any size smurfing effects your party's average MMR and can reliably be used to boost another account.

This is nothing new or even that far-fetched, I've definitely said weirder.

And forget match manipulation for just a moment; wipe it from your mind, 2v1 is just stupid. Even if people weren't abusing it, its just unfair and makes ranked not worth it. Arenanet could hardware ID ban every wintrader right now and so long as ranked remains mixed solo/duo or mixed solo/teams of any size, it's 💩

The fact that no wintrader queues without it is just icing on the reasons to remove or split duoq cake.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

11 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

Ummm so this was Trevor's post.  You can clearly see that he says the votes of others (ie. their options) are disgusting to him.

I didn't say the user's suggestion was disgusting. I said it was disgusting that the community as a whole was massively upvoting this suggestion, and it is. Because it displays a complete disregard for any rational awareness of cause & effect & repercussion.

I've already posted in this thread exactly what is going to happen if this suggestion were implemented. But the people who are upvoting this idea or trying to "respect it" have posted absolutely nothing other than these metaphysical liberal ideas like "well it's being done on alts anyway so who cares let's do it" while completely disregarding the obvious fact that if this suggestion were implemented, literally everyone, including people who ARE NOT already sucked into match manipulation, will find it mandatory to always play 1 character down into bronze 1 to queue in as before swapping. <- This would happen 100% without a doubt. It wouldn't just distort the match making further, it would absolutely destroy it and force all of us to play smurf at all times or we would be greatly punished for not doing it. This silly suggestion would single handedly destroy any remaining structural integrity left within the algorithm. It wouldn't even be salvageable after this suggestion were implemented. This suggestion would not help anything or serve to create any "feel good vibe". It would do the exact opposite to such a degree, that it would make the match making actually worse than a completely random queue that didn't have an algorithm at all.

If anyone with half a brain were to stop and actually think about this for longer than 2 seconds, as much is obvious.

11 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

He says that the reason people would have such an opinion is that they "lack knowledge" and "don't know any better.

Yup and it's ridiculously glaringly true in this case.

11 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

Perhaps they just had different priorities and do understand what this would do, but also understand that it's being done regardless.

Ok look man. I don't know why you're trying to victim hunt.

All that happened here was a new guy made a suggestion and an old veteran pointed out why it wouldn't be good.

This is how it works. This is the way it has to work.

I mean when you're too liberal and start defending things just for the sake of being progressive, it begins to distort the passing of knowledge and things get goofy.

Careful with that stuff.

12 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

It is a very dismissive tone that does not give any credit to the people whom have a contrary opinion.

You are the one that took it that way.

All I did was get blunt & straight to the point.

Somebody has to keep it real man.

12 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

It is condescending, it's saying you have your opinion because you don't know any better and can't figure things out.   This may or may not be the case and reason for the opinion, but the assumption is here that it absolutely is.  This is the condescension, and it is most certainly condescension.  

See this is all liberal victim seeking for virtue signaling.

The fact of the matter is that a person learns faster when someone points something out to them directly, which is what I've done here. I remember it took me like the first 4 years of gameplay before I even noticed what smurfing was or how people could do that. But when I responded to him in this thread, I allowed him to become immediately aware of how these things work, which I'm sure will alter his future suggestions in this forum about match making functions. And that was the purpose of the interaction here, so anyone following this thread, can get on the level of some of the older players, so they can contribute better feedback.

This is just how humans pass knowledge my dude. Not a big deal.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

58 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Smurfing as a soloq is completely pointless unless you were challenging yourself to climb on another acc. With a duo or team of any size smurfing effects your party's average MMR and can reliably be used to boost another account.

What? Are you not understanding how the exploit would work or something? I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

This is how you find the average of a set of numbers. This is exactly what the algorithm does:

1. Count the number of values in your data set.
2. Add up the sum of all the numbers.
3. Divide the sum by the count.

So if we had a team of RED who were say all 1500s, we would do a count of 5, and the 5x 1500s add up to 7500. 7500 is then divided by 5 = exactly 1500 average, as every single one of them are exactly 1500 rating. It would then attempt to put together an opposing team of also an average of 1500.

Now, let's say all of them are playing on mains when they achieve that 1500. BUT if one of them abuses the individual MMR and has played a single class down to Bronze 1, which is 600 rating, then he can queue in as that 600 rating and it will lower the solo queue RED team's average down to 1320. This is Gold 2. Now the algorithm will be seeking Gold 2 players to put against a team of plats because 1 guy smurf queued in as Bronze 1. Then of course he swaps back to his main class before the match starts.

Even if they locked class swapping once entering a game, people would just prepare many smurfs to play consecutively, all the classes they main, and chain queue all of it for a massively fat rating boost whenever they wanted it. Albeit a bit more annoying to prepare, they would definitely be doing this and it would actually mean more throw phases where they have to go into games and throw on purpose not even to win trade, but to prepare the smurfs. We just DO NOT NEED any more of that garbage crap going on.

Do you think anything about this is fair or healthy? I mean it's very confusing that you as a person who advocates so much for the quality of match making, would come in here and defend this suggestion, while also saying in your response to me: "This wouldn't matter solo queue". It strikes me as a blind jab to help your advocation against duo queue. I mean it really does look like you just said that in some thoughtless convenient moment to make solo queue look good, and duo queue look bad. But the reality here mathematically, is that what you said is just wrong. There isn't any way to patsy around this, you're wrong this time, very wrong. Solo queue smurfing, even if only 1 person on a team does it, can turn the seeding of a Plat group into the seeding of a Gold 2 group. Smurfing on a solo queue would certainly not be pointless, it would matter so much to the point that it would force all of us to have to annoyingly do this all the time to keep up when other people all started doing it. The suggestion presented by the OP in this thread is actually potentially the worst suggestion that has ever been in this forum.

Look man, opinions are great, but sometimes opinions are just wrong, and it's important that someone points it out and keeps it real.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[ccccc.4963]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

What? Are you not understanding how the exploit would work or something? I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

This is how you find the average of a set of numbers. This is exactly what the algorithm does:

1. Count the number of values in your data set.
2. Add up the sum of all the numbers.
3. Divide the sum by the count.

So if we had a team of RED who were say all 1500s, we would do a count of 5, and the 5x 1500s add up to 7500. 7500 is then divided by 5 = exactly 1500 average, as every single one of them are exactly 1500 rating. It would then attempt to put together an opposing team of also an average of 1500.

Now, let's say all of them are playing on mains when they achieve that 1500. BUT if one of them abuses the individual MMR and has played a single class down to Bronze 1, which is 600 rating, then he can queue in as that 600 rating and it will lower the solo queue RED team's average down to 1320. This is Gold 2. Now the algorithm will be seeking Gold 2 players to put against a team of plats because 1 guy smurf queued in as Bronze 1. Then of course he swaps back to his main class before the match starts.

Even if they locked class swapping once entering a game, people would just prepare many smurfs to play consecutively, all the classes they main, and chain queue all of it for a massively fat rating boost whenever they wanted it. Albeit a bit more annoying to prepare, they would definitely be doing this and it would actually mean more throw phases where they have to go into games and throw on purpose not even to win trade, but to prepare the smurfs. We just DO NOT NEED any more of that garbage crap going on.

Do you think anything about this is fair or healthy? I mean it's very confusing that you as a person who advocates so much for the quality of match making, would come in here and defend this suggestion, while also saying in your response to me: "This wouldn't matter solo queue". It strikes me as a blind jab to help your advocation against duo queue. I mean it really does look like you just said that in some thoughtless convenient moment to make solo queue look good, and duo queue look bad. But the reality here mathematically, is that what you said is just wrong. There isn't any way to patsy around this, you're wrong this time, very wrong. Solo queue smurfing, even if only 1 person on a team does it, can turn the seeding of a Plat group into the seeding of a Gold 2 group. Smurfing on a solo queue would certainly not be pointless, it would matter so much to the point that it would force all of us to have to annoyingly do this all the time to keep up when other people all started doing it. The suggestion presented by the OP in this thread is actually potentially the worst suggestion that has ever been in this forum.

Look man, opinions are great, but sometimes opinions are just wrong, and it's important that someone points it out and keeps it real.

how do you deep dive hypotheticals like this and still play how you do

[arazoth.7290]

How are you all still talking about this suggestion that is easier to exploit then previous system. 

duo queue up both bronze 1 rating and then change when match has started, others will do it too so it will cause a worse imbalance then ever

😒

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

What? Are you not understanding how the exploit would work or something? I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

This is how you find the average of a set of numbers. This is exactly what the algorithm does:

1. Count the number of values in your data set.
2. Add up the sum of all the numbers.
3. Divide the sum by the count.

So if we had a team of RED who were say all 1500s, we would do a count of 5, and the 5x 1500s add up to 7500. 7500 is then divided by 5 = exactly 1500 average, as every single one of them are exactly 1500 rating. It would then attempt to put together an opposing team of also an average of 1500.

Now, let's say all of them are playing on mains when they achieve that 1500. BUT if one of them abuses the individual MMR and has played a single class down to Bronze 1, which is 600 rating, then he can queue in as that 600 rating and it will lower the solo queue RED team's average down to 1320. This is Gold 2. Now the algorithm will be seeking Gold 2 players to put against a team of plats because 1 guy smurf queued in as Bronze 1. Then of course he swaps back to his main class before the match starts.

Even if they locked class swapping once entering a game, people would just prepare many smurfs to play consecutively, all the classes they main, and chain queue all of it for a massively fat rating boost whenever they wanted it. Albeit a bit more annoying to prepare, they would definitely be doing this and it would actually mean more throw phases where they have to go into games and throw on purpose not even to win trade, but to prepare the smurfs. We just DO NOT NEED any more of that garbage crap going on.

Do you think anything about this is fair or healthy? I mean it's very confusing that you as a person who advocates so much for the quality of match making, would come in here and defend this suggestion, while also saying in your response to me: "This wouldn't matter solo queue". It strikes me as a blind jab to help your advocation against duo queue. I mean it really does look like you just said that in some thoughtless convenient moment to make solo queue look good, and duo queue look bad. But the reality here mathematically, is that what you said is just wrong. There isn't any way to patsy around this, you're wrong this time, very wrong. Solo queue smurfing, even if only 1 person on a team does it, can turn the seeding of a Plat group into the seeding of a Gold 2 group. Smurfing on a solo queue would certainly not be pointless, it would matter so much to the point that it would force all of us to have to annoyingly do this all the time to keep up when other people all started doing it. The suggestion presented by the OP in this thread is actually potentially the worst suggestion that has ever been in this forum.

I thought you were talking about soloq smurfing in general, not in relation to class-specific ratings like the OP suggests. Mind you, I was dragged into this thread, otherwise I wouldn't have touched it. I don't have an opinion on it really because I've never seen anything like it in-game in the decade I played, and you haven't either.

I saw duoq mentioned and duoq is a topic I do have an opinion on, that being that it is unfair, unfun, and abusive and needs to go. 💩talk it and you have all my blue hearts and purple cups for days, doesn't matter what else you want. Simple as.

And I don't want to come off as dismissive, so I'll bite and extrapolate on why soloq smurfing is pointless (without class-specific ratings) but know I do this out of respect.

For 1: Your effective MMR as a soloq is accurate pretty much to the T. There is no average MMR to manipulate up and down to a pair's liking. If you tank your rating down to bronze as a soloq, your matchmaking begins at bronze. You might be able to steamroll over bronze and climb back up to your actual soloq rating, but what has been accomplished? Nothing. You eventually end up where you should be if not lower when you soloq smurf.

2: There's little opportunity for improvement when smurfing, which is what soloqueuing is all about. You don't play at the max possible handicap if you aren't playing to get better and you aren't playing to get better if you're smurfing.

And 3: There is absolutely no tangible benefit to it. You'd be losing more games than you're winning, hurting your gold per hour if that's what you care about, and your rating at the end of the season would be considerably lower than if you just played the game normally. At most, you'd get a temporary feeling of superiority over the rando silvers and golds you stomp, and I have faith that nobody here is that pathetic outside of the wintrading cartel.

If I missed anything; tell me, but please; for the love of all that is holy, speak a language native to planet Earth when you do. "Throw phases"? "Seeding"?! What does 'seeding' mean, Trevor?! 😰✝️

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Look man, opinions are great, but sometimes opinions are just wrong, and it's important that someone points it out and keeps it real.

I don't know what you mean by that and that concerns me. Are you talking from a moral standpoint? Because if you were, I would agree. Opinions can be morally wrong or righteous because objective moral truth exists, thank goodness. 🙏

If you aren't talking about morality then what you're essentially saying is "there is only one correct view, and it is mine. I know best, everyone else is wrong." And that perspective is worthy of nothing but dismissal, being as it does the same to anyone else's perspective and is not constructive in the least.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

I don't know what you mean by that and that concerns me. Are you talking from a moral standpoint? Because if you were, I would agree. Opinions can be morally wrong or righteous because objective moral truth exists, thank goodness. 🙏

I'm not talking about morals, I'm talking about hard math.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

will find it mandatory to always play 1 character down into bronze 1 to queue in as before swapping.

trev they already said it would be necessary to disable swapping. so the question is will it still be possible to exploit with it disabled

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

38 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

trev they already said it would be necessary to disable swapping. so the question is will it still be possible to exploit with it disabled

Absolutely.

Let's say a person mains 4x classes that they can play at all roughly the same level, let's again assume bottom 1500. They are able to play: Rev, War, Holo, Necro.

So what they do is in the previous, prepare the smurfs. They throw all those individual class MMRs down to actual Bronze 1 600. Now they get this incredible boost in seeding for easy placements. They could even do it at the start of a new season if they wanted. Starting as a Bronze 1 MMR would be enough smurf to allow a normally 1500 to rise to probably around 1600-1620 fairly easily. Once they notice the volatility stabilizing and the matches becoming difficult, switch from Rev to War. Now they are a Bronze 1 seed again but still have a 1600ish rating. So now they get another free +100-150 rating before the volatility settles again and the match maker figures out maybe they shouldn't be 1700 rating. Volatility is settling? Swap from War to Holo. Now he's Bronze 1 again with a 1700 account-wide rating and this will allow him to rise to around 1800. Volatility is settling at the end of the season when trying to maintain the 1800? Easily dealt with, swap from Holo to Necro and now he's Bronze 1 in seeding again.

The biggest problem with enabling a system that would make people want to do this, would be the increased throw phasing that people would want to do to be able to do it. To be able to get smurfs down to Bronze 1, you need to throw enough games to do it, which means a lot of people in matches sand bagging around trying to prepare smurfs over the course of dozens and dozens if not hundreds of matches. Players in matches would be throwing as often as they were trying to win, because they would have too, to prepare the smurfs for that one moment when they want to go on an elongated win streak for increased rating. Which this will backfire for everyone because so many people will be constantly wanting to prepare smurfs and will already be playing smurfs, that when a player goes to play his smurf, everyone in his match is either already smurfing or is trying to prepare smurfs. This single suggestion if implemented would quite seriously turn the game into "Throw Wars 2" over night. It would be a ****ing nightmare and anyone who has braved sticking around this long, would actually completely quit and leave the game. This single suggestion would actually destroy the game mode. I don't mean kitten people off, no. I mean it would actually drive everyone away, even the streamers, because what was going on would be so glaringly stupidly obvious, that no one would want to play or watch these matches on anyone's stream. It would be so dumb that we'd need to head to custom arenas and create private leagues or just wait for ATs.

The only actual way to make any of this functional, would be removing class swapping after loading into a match, and making 9 separate leaderboards that track everyone's individual class MMRs on different classes. But trying to have individual class MMRs while maintaining a single account-wide seasonal rating simply would not work and would be amongst the worst possible ideas to implement. If anyone were to stop and really think this through, they'd realize the 9 separate leaderboards would be a requirement for an individual class rating system.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

8 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

And I don't want to come off as dismissive, so I'll bite and extrapolate on why soloq smurfing is pointless (without class-specific ratings) but know I do this out of respect.

5 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'm not talking about morals, I'm talking about hard math.

"You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him." -Deuteronomy 15:10 🙏

I wish you luck with that math, friend, and now; being dismissed, I must turn the other cheek.

[ShadowLurker.8713]

16 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The only actual way to make any of this functional, would be removing class swapping after loading into a match, and making 9 separate leaderboards that track everyone's individual class MMRs on different classes.

Yes. That's what we want.

 

16 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If anyone were to stop and really think this through, they'd realize the 9 separate leaderboards would be a requirement for an individual class rating system.

No, all you have to do is replace account name on the leaderboard to character name. If the person has multiple characters of the same class, just show the highest ranked character of that class, or something else, whatever.

You're whole argument across this thread has been based off of a strawman of the original suggestion, i.e. still being able to class swap and not having separate MMRs.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

Yes. That's what we want.

 

No, all you have to do is replace account name on the leaderboard to character name. If the person has multiple characters of the same class, just show the highest ranked character of that class, or something else, whatever.

You're whole argument across this thread has been based off of a strawman of the original suggestion, i.e. still being able to class swap and not having separate MMRs.

So what you're saying is:

1. The algorithm would need to not only track the progress across 9 different classes but now also the individual progress of each individual character.
2. It would be a great idea because no one would use 40 different characters to throw on purpose to queue snipe others and keep their rating down.
3. It would be a great idea regardless of how you did not consider the volatility in imploding or exploding the rating margins unrealistically under the many hole in the wall circumstances your suggestion would enable.

Not only did you not consider the realistic cause & effect of your direct suggestion concerning how it would be used it queues directly, but you also completely disregarded how ridiculously complex and virtually impossible that this system would be to configure as an algorithm. No game company would attempt this.

Oh and btw bud, this is the definition of Strawman:

1. an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument:

I haven't misrepresented anything. I've very directly & concisely confronted the OP suggestion with facts and actual explanations of how the algorithm actually works.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

ShadowLurker.8713 is typing...

It's not even about facts & truths anymore or anything realistic pertaining to the topic at hand. Now it's just about arguing with me because it's more important to make someone who's right look wrong to defend your image, than it is to admit you didn't know what the hell you were talking about to begin with.

~ Love you guys

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[ShadowLurker.8713]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The algorithm would need to not only track the progress across 9 different classes but now also the individual progress of each individual character.

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

you also completely disregarded how ridiculously complex and virtually impossible that this system would be to configure as an algorithm. No game company would attempt this.

The pvp population is so low this would not be close to a problem. And only the specific classes of each account should be tracked. Perhaps the leaderboard could list the account name and have the class in parenthesis next to it or something. And it would be fine to have an account be on the leaderboard multiple times. There are many solutions.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It would be a great idea because no one would use 40 different characters to throw on purpose to queue snipe others and keep their rating down.

This is the strongest argument, but que sniping happens already, and it only works to a certain point.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

say a person rips through the leaderboards on a new character with a fresh MMR and accrues a ton of wins and reaches 1650 rating. They drop so many players down in rating while doing this, but that character doesn't get listed because he has one listed that is at 1700. So he tries again on another fresh character, does same thing to 1650, still is not listed due to the one at 1700. So what's happening here is he is ripping rating off everyone and stacking it onto these characters

If someone is good enough to get to 1650+ on multiple classes, they deserve it.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

40 different characters to throw on purpose

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

On the other hand, after the person reaches 1700 on one character, they can then turn around and use the 40 other characters they don't need, to throw games on people to knock people down the leaderboards.

Please make sure you are talking about classes and not characters. There are not 40 classes, there are only 9. We are talking about the MMRs of classes, not individual characters. If you are intentionally confusing these two, you are MISREPRESENTING, and the argument is a strawman. More on that later.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

these characters that are not displayed and that he isn't going to play often at all or maybe never again that season.

Decay exists. These characters won't stay up in the leaderboards for long unless they spend a lot of time playing all these classes.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Oh and btw the bud, this is the definition of Strawman:

1. an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument:

I'm not sure what you thought a strawman was, but I've done nothing here but very directly engage the OP's suggestion with a highly detailed explanation of why the suggestion would just be bad. That's a not a strawman my dude, that's just throwing out facts that make sense. At some point you gotta stop the goofy finger pointing and screaming definitions of words as a defense to your ill-thought out statements and just accept when someone is stating facts and making more sense than you are.

OK friend, 90% of your responses were under the assumption that que swapping would not be banned, and that MMR would not be tracked separately for each class. Those two qualifiers were obvious and stated multiple times yet you chose to ignore it. That sound like strawmanning to you? And now you're doing it again by conflating individual characters with classes.

People are pointing fingers at you because you are adamant that you are right and that the rest of the community is wrong and that we haven't thought this through when we've clearly rebutted your arguments. You are the one that's getting heated because you can't even consider the possibility that you might be wrong when multiple people are calling you out.

At the very least this idea is worth considering, and of course testing should be done to prove or disprove its viability.

Edit: Seeing your last post now... all we've done is give you truths and facts and rebuttals but you just won't accept them! We don't care about image, we care about implementing cool new ideas to make the game better.

Edited October 1, 2023 by ShadowLurker.8713

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

Please make sure you are talking about classes and not characters. There are not 40 classes, there are only 9. We are talking about the MMRs of classes, not individual characters. If you are intentionally confusing these two, you are MISREPRESENTING, and the argument is a strawman. More on that later.

No, you actually said this:

8 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

No, all you have to do is replace account name on the leaderboard to character name. If the person has multiple characters of the same class, just show the highest ranked character of that class, or something else, whatever.

What you yourself said insinuates that the algorithm would be tracking all the ratings of each class in additional to multiple characters of a same class.

I was merely addressing what you said here.

In fact, YOU are the one misrepresenting your own arguments and defeating yourself with your own strawman, not me.

I actually don't think I've ever seen anyone do that before. That's amazing, thank you.

2 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

Decay exists. These characters won't stay up in the leaderboards for long unless they spend a lot of time playing all these classes.

You're just simply not understanding what I"m saying here or anything about how a competitive algorithm works at all.

When people take a bunch of rating and then retire the characters with that rating early season, it actually takes progress from the tracked history and poofs it. It would be similar to playing any other game of math "because that's what it is" like say Sudoku, where you need to have all the integers in play for the game to make sense and work for the equations to work at all, but then you just start removing numbers and eliminating box squares and lines lower than 9 and expect the game to somehow still work.

If you don't understand, can't see what I'm saying here, you're not going to be able too. Don't worry about it.

2 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

OK friend, 90% of your responses were under the assumption that que swapping would not be banned, and that MMR would not be tracked separately for each class. Those two qualifiers were obvious and stated multiple times yet you chose to ignore it.

No, those were stated after I brought it up. Go reread the thread man.

2 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

That sound like strawmanning to you?

My dude, a strawman is what you just tried to do in this previous quote that you made, where you insinuated that "several times I ignored yada yada" which is just not true. Anyone can reread through this thread and see that I brought those things up first and then people said "ok well considering that we did do this, how about that?" and then I responded further as to why it still just wouldn't work due to the sheer mathematical related problems with an algorithm like this.

What you did here is the actual definition of a strawman "attempting to misrepresent something so it's easier to defeat".

I'll state again, I've said nothing in this thread other than state hard obvious facts, most of them mathematical, which you really just can't argue with unless you're stuck in a phase where this is no longer even about the topic at hand, but now more about attempting to defend your own image through arguing with someone that you know is right.

Get over it.

2 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

People are pointing fingers at you because you are adamant that you are right and that the rest of the community is wrong and that we haven't thought this through when we've clearly rebutted your arguments. You are the one that's getting heated because you can't even consider the possibility that you might be wrong when multiple people are calling you out.

They are wrong, including yourself.

No one has rebutted anything that I've said. So far it's a bunch of people, including yourself, coming in here with ideas that are purely emotional based and not rational/logic based. These are all people, including yourself, who don't even understand basic algorithm functions or simple things like how averaging a set of numbers works lol. I've had to state & explain several actual algorithm functions in this thread, whilst these people who think they have "rebutted me" have stated no factual data or any keen estimation at all of how any of these ideas would pan out. All I'm getting here from you guys is: "well well well we want it! you're wrong for thinking you're right when maybe you're wrong and maybe we are right!" <- Go reread through it. That's all you guys are saying in here. You're not even throwing out any rational bullet label of reasons of proof or anything of what you think you believe in. It's just all emotional.

Again, you're just arguing with me to defend the image of yourself in your own mind out of pride, instead of just admitting that you seriously lack understanding of how any of this works. You also lack the experience in-game and with the community to recognize the several ways that it would all get tremendously exploited.

But it's all good dude. We live an era where it's more important to unga bunga scream about what you believe in instead of paying attention to the truth.

Live it up man.

2 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

At the very least this idea is worth considering, and of course testing should be done to prove or disprove its viability.

No it isn't. Simple math can show you that this will be a terrible idea.

I don't know what the hell is wrong with you guys lately. 2+2 is going to = 4.  It's not going to somehow work out magically to be 6 or 2 or 17. 2+2 is going to = 4 every time.

If you don't understand what I mean by this in relation to looking at what these suggestions would do to the algorithm functions, just don't even worry about it. Live it up man.

2 hours ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

all we've done is give you truths and facts and rebuttals

No, all you've done is throw emotional ideas.

If you want me to respect and actually discuss your ideas seriously, you need to lay out an actual explanation as to how it is even possible using algorithm functions, that any of this would pan. You'd also need to give me firm explanation of a cause & effect of community morality and what they would use it for, to show that you've in any way shape or form considered the repercussions of any of this.

But you haven't done any of this. All I'm getting, which I've gotten several times now, is: "Well everything is kind of bad anyway so let's just do this why not" which is the most ignorant apathic approach possible, yet here you are, trying to act like there has been some kind of rational strong debate coming from your side.

Laughable.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[arazoth.7290]

meow

[ShadowLurker.8713]

45 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

No one has rebutted anything that I've said.

I'm done. Not worth anyone's time anymore.

11 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

meow

Love it.

[deathdealer.2197]

What trevor is saying is that it would work if there was no duo que, no class swapping and instead of account bound rating there was character bound rating.

Its undeniable that if it was implemented in the current system that it would be very abuseable, but I already said that earlier on.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:15 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Which this will backfire for everyone because so many people will be constantly wanting to prepare smurfs and will already be playing smurfs, that when a player goes to play his smurf, everyone in his match is either already smurfing or is trying to prepare smurfs.

The only actual way to make any of this functional, would be removing class swapping after loading into a match, and making 9 separate leaderboards that track everyone's individual class MMRs on different classes. But trying to have individual class MMRs while maintaining a single account-wide seasonal rating simply would not work and would be amongst the worst possible ideas to implement. If anyone were to stop and really think this through, they'd realize the 9 separate leaderboards would be a requirement for an individual class rating system.

that first sentence is pretty lol. smurfception mode

yes, my guess is that disabling class swapping before match start would be what most ppl would agree would need to happen. there wouldn't need to be 9 separate leader boards for each class but i don't see why that wouldn't be possible. the individual boards could be unofficial (more like a stat tracker than a board) and only the highest rated character could be taken into account as the official rating that the real board would use. maybe a board for the highest mean across all 9 characters would be something that ppl would want to see as well (don't forget top stats and average kdr). all the different characters are treated like different accounts essentially in terms of the system handling all the data, theres nothing complicated about it its just a numbers game and the boards (maybe we should just call them trackers) are there simply to present the data

how this could play out when looking at the leader board is instead of showing 10 names per page, its still 10 but theres 20 lines. under each account name is a profession icon with a rating, and the 1st name (the 1st line out of 2 dedicated to that person) with the highest rating is the main toon the person plays. you click on that person and there is some other page with more data. where it says leader board and under it there is all / top etc. there could be a page for professions, you click on that and on the left are listed all the professions and you click on one of those you get each professions leader board. the actual pvp window would probably have to be bigger/ reworked. the rewards section is definitely way too big so anet could start there O.o

Edited October 2, 2023 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Shagie.7612]

i mean, i dunno if how well it would work out, but like has been mentioned in previous similar threads:
i think it'd be really cool to recognize that people are high rated on x pick, if nobody else plays it (cause it's bad, unpopular, whatever reason)

it's the one cool thing solo shuffle did for wow's pvp

[Sereath.1428]

4 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

 

1 hour ago, Grim Crusader.6143 said:

 

Yeah this sounds great. I did not get to play WOW much, but I'd love to see that system here.
I wonder if it would be possible to do it per spec and not just class.
(And it goes without saying that it would be account wide, regardless of whether you have multiple characters of the same class. On top of preventing you from switching characters once you get into a match. I thought that was more than obvious.)

For sure more people would start caring about climbing, aka just playing sPvP.

And ok, so we can't have more game modes because "But cOnqEst is the perfect game mode! Balance would be bad with other game modes."
And for sure we are not going to get more maps or skins or anything that requires assets, because that costs money.

So why are some people so adamant about not even changing the current systems? Including some the devs.
"Can we please remove duoq." 1.
"No! I want to play with my friends and that wouldn't even fix matchmaking manipulation. There are more important things to do." 2.

"Can we please prevent people from switching characters once the match starts?" 1.
"No! Because what if I feel like abusing something else once I see the enemy comp! Not my fault that you don't abuse do this as well." 2. (Funny, because this is also how you can manipulate matches.)

And now this thread.
"No!"

Why would you not want more people playing sPvP, this would be the easiest route by far because everything else costs way more money and you are never getting that.
Are some of these players actually happy to only play with the same 27 dedicated players all the time? Because at most you have about 300 regular players. That's kittening tragic.
And the quality of games is never going to get better without more active players.

I personally will only keep sticking to WvW, there's absolutely nothing for me here, but I still care for the games overall health because I do think that the combat is still fantastic, cool fashion too.
Start worrying once you stop having people criticizing the game and wanting changes to be made. That would mean everyone stopped caring.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Sereath.1428