Scourge might be a bit too strong (49k dps)

[Shiyo.3578]

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks 49k with tons of utility and 99% ranged damage on top of being  VERY easy to play.

Glad Weaver got that 5% global nerf at release, clearly would've been completely out of control.

[ArtimisTau.7902]

Been waiting to see what Relics SC go with. Didn't expect Akeem, it must effect the target as well.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I'm honestly terrified to see the nuke ANet will drop on Scourge in the next balance patch.  We all knew this last bit was overkill.

Hopefully they'll start with something small like reverting Demonic Defiance to a 25% boost instead of 33%.  That should knock a couple thousand DPS off on its own.

[doc.9162]

they are the kings of silent surf atm. like almost double the dps of other classes.

[Warscythes.9307]

Scourge is horribly overpowered at the moment, no doubt about it. Out of all dps specs it should be on the lower side, the fact that is the top means it needs very heavy nerfs. 

[Birdie.3869]

I wish snow crows was deleted outright. Golem testing sucks, show me dps numbers on a boss or two that fights back and moves.
I'm not saying dps isn't really high on scourge with pistol, it is, but man they better not drag scourge the same direction they dragged catalyst just because standing still smacking a large hitbox does big numbers.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Honestly they might need to end up nerfing the relic of Akeem

[Warscythes.9307]

20 minutes ago, Birdie.3869 said:

I wish snow crows was deleted outright. Golem testing sucks, show me dps numbers on a boss or two that fights back and moves.
I'm not saying dps isn't really high on scourge with pistol, it is, but man they better not drag scourge the same direction they dragged catalyst just because standing still smacking a large hitbox does big numbers.

Non golem scenario is of course taken account. In fact realistic boss scenario where Scourge has historically performed better.

It is tanky, ranged with a easy rotation. It is not hitbox dependent at all and has very low reliance on stowing. This is not some squishy melee class with a complicated rotation. Scourge is one of the best class where their golem performance translates very well in any real boss fights because of these factors which is why this is one of the few cases where you can look at the benchmark and know immediately something is very wrong. This doesn't mean Scourge will do 50k dps in realistic fights but rather their damage drop off due to movement and mechanics will be much lower than many many other classes.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Maultrace.5761]

Instead on nerfing necro to the ground, can we just buff the rest up? Necro getting murderized kinda getting old at this point...

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Scourge was never balanced around a Mainhand option that applies Torment.

Best thing to do at first would be to change that 33% Torment damage increase to a 33% duration increase and then adjust it from there.

[Warscythes.9307]

38 minutes ago, Maultrace.5761 said:

Instead on nerfing necro to the ground, can we just buff the rest up? Necro getting murderized kinda getting old at this point...

Absolutely not, the entire game is incredibly powercreeped at the moment. 40k DPS as the average was already over the top, you do not want the standard for damage to go up even higher. GW2 was not designed to be a vertical progression game and the recent powercreep has already caused cracks in some of the older systems. Older raids are literally skipping mechanics due to how every single class's damage went up by anywhere from 30-50%. You do not want this to be common place, they need to start turning back the powercreep immediately and doing nothing but buffing is how you reach that point. Every single class right now can be nerfed by a minimal of 10-15% and it still likely will not be enough. Scourge is just the outlier of the outlier at the moment.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[anbujackson.9564]

1 hour ago, Maultrace.5761 said:

Instead on nerfing necro to the ground, can we just buff the rest up? Necro getting murderized kinda getting old at this point...

Lol alright lets just give everyone 50k dps with no real rotation, extreme utility and fully ranged. 

Do you want the game to die out so much? 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

1 hour ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Honestly they might need to end up nerfing the relic of Akeem

That wouldn't honestly do a lot.  Aristocracy relic is still 47k dps.

 

Scourge itself needs the nerfs, and the best spots to do it are Demonic Lore and Sadistic Searing.

[Furball.1236]

Too many people are being too reactive about some classes doing higher DPS than the class they play.

Below is the list of classes that can do 42k+ (up to 48k) DPS against golem when played by the top players. There's at least one elite specialization per profession, and to be honest, I'm impressed by ArenaNet's work of having all these builds within such narrow DPS range.

--The list has most likely grown longer by the time you read this post as many players are still optimizing their gears right now. This also does not include multiple classes that could already do 42k+ in the previous patch, most of which likely do more DPS now.--

Note 42k DPS is only 14% lower than 49K and 48K is only 2% lower than 49K.

pBerserker 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FSsivpP1i0

cBerserker 45k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD9_IaZf7_c

cRenegade 44k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfzwsXsU_ek

cFirebrand 43k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Z-qSpY9pY

pWillbender 44k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHVnxv-pop0

cDruid 46k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVDYwrIyeAE

pSoulbeast 45k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcrZ_9LYzYk

hybridSoulbeast 43k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDAtGWCeS7o

cSoulbeast 43k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ3KRnJ9SL8

pHolosmith 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfgtQ_zxYrY

cHolosmith 46k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q12mALnhGc

cMechanist 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oc55XlBcZ4

cDaredevil 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GLr1TRL4rQ

cDeadeye 48k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeVpSJISZ6s

cSpecter 47k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvCn4vQbDuw

pChrono 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGTpJyvipDQ

cMirage 43k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0NGs0BRS4M

cVirtuoso 43k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHcSKGDrvPk

pReaper 43k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdGhb1cbCG4

cReaper 43k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w-Mc6nyW_U

cScourge 49k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Br4E802nKY

cHarbinger 45k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBDxS1f_c6E

cTempest 43k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S3WFpyJA4w

pWeaver 44k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzA9PeUHcl4

cWeaver 45k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zozzIbVqPjA

pCatalyst 47k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVzsLcObcS4

For those who're not familiar, "DPS with allies" means your DPS when you have 4 allies standing next to you. This represents the DPS in most group contents. The reason some classes has higher DPS with allies is because they apply damage dealing buffs on your nearby allies.

 

For real fight DPS, you can check https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/bossBench.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Furball.1236
Updated the list

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally, I think that all professions/e-specs that have builds that reach 40k+ dps need some nerfs. Let's keep in mind that through all of HoT and PoF the content was cleared easily despite golem dps being 10k+ below what we see commonly since EoD release.

Also, right now, one have to admit that the damage output of conditions builds is overshadowing the damage output of strike damage builds. The drawback of conditions builds is supposed to be the ramp up but this drawback have mostly been ironed out through years of balance patchs (that's especially true in PvE where necromancer used to be the one that really struggled due to a long condi ramp up but, instead of bringing other professions condi builds down to the necromancer's standard they brought the necromancer up to other's standard). 

 

[Uete.3805]

I'm team 40k dps is enough dps, we can't be moving the pole flag any further or older content will be so trivialized it won't be even fun anymore... imagine if this happens with every expansion we'll be at double the max dps a char did last month in 3 years.

The new runes + relics + weaponmaster have had their consequences made clear: nerfs are needed at the skill and trait level.

I personally think Anet knew Scourge would be killing it under this circumstances when they nerfed it in June, but the outcry for dps Scourge was so loud they buffed it again in July. Well now it's clearly overshooting xD I'm hoping they will remedy this within 2 weeks or so.

[soul.9651]

4 hours ago, Maultrace.5761 said:

Instead on nerfing necro to the ground, can we just buff the rest up? Necro getting murderized kinda getting old at this point...

Buff everything to 50+k?? What are you smoking??:DD

[Mell.4873]

The main buff with the new relics has been with condition damage, power arguably got a little nerf with certain classes. 

I feel like the easier would be to nerf the condition itself and the traits association to it. 25% damage boost a cross the board would probably address most of the issues. I mean heck, most strike damage boosts are capped at 25% so why not conditions. 

In terms of the conditions, Torment would be a good start and then see how that plays out.

[Keelin.5781]

Oh good, can't wait for the class to be destroyed. Nuanced changes are not something we often see.

Knowing how these things usually end up, we'll probably get something like:

• Nerf MH pistol into the ground => Scourge back down to normal levels, Harb now unplayable unless it gets buffed at the same time.

OR

• Nerf Scourge => Scourge baseline now balanced around MH pistol, scepter etc unusable.

Or, quite frankly, some other inexplicable change that will leave half the class unplayable for months. Of course people have already made some good suggestions on how to avoid things like that, I'm just not confident that will happen. 😟

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Keelin.5781

[Tanachi.3951]

They should never nerf anything, and definitely not because some meta junkies made some tests on a training golem. If a class is strong in PvE, leave it be. Hell, make the rest of the classes as good as it is. Buffs >>> Nerfs. And if you really want a class to be nerfed in PvE, you should never post in the forums or reddit or anywhere ever again. I know this is gonna fall on deaf ears, and scourge/pistol/core necro is gonna get butcheted to the extreme, but oh well.

[Warscythes.9307]

6 hours ago, Furball.1236 said:

Too many people are being too reactive about some classes doing higher DPS than the class they play.

Below is the list of classes that can do 42k+ (up to 48k) DPS against golem when played by the top players. There's at least one elite specialization per profession, and to be honest, I'm impressed by ArenaNet's work of having all these builds within such narrow DPS range.

--The list has most likely grown longer by the time you read this post as many players are still optimizing their gears right now. This also does not include multiple classes that could already do 42k+ in the previous patch, most of which likely do more DPS now.--

Note 42k DPS is only 14% lower than 49K and 48K is only 2% lower than 49K.

pBerserker 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FSsivpP1i0

cBerserker 45k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD9_IaZf7_c

cRenegade 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0CHp4BSdc

pSoulbeast 44k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Vmw_vYcF0

hybridSoulbeast 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzoCqO6_mW0

cSoulbeast 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm8VWS7GYg

cMechanist 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oc55XlBcZ4

cDeadeye 48k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeVpSJISZ6s

cSpecter 47k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvCn4vQbDuw

pReaper 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohXmDdc-Ko4

cMirage 42k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnqEZAWuys

pWeaver 44k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzA9PeUHcl4

pCatalyst 45k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPUmHiXvH7I

For those who're not familiar, "DPS with allies" means your DPS when you have 4 allies standing next to you. This represents the DPS in most group contents. The reason some classes has higher DPS with allies is because they apply damage dealing buffs on your nearby allies.

Every single one of them needed to be nerfed, this isn't some proof that you think it is. Pretty much all of them perform worse than Scourge in actual fights due to the reason I have given above as Scourge performs much better in non golem situations. So the fact Scourge perform better than all of them is actually even more evidence that it is definitely in need of adjustment. 

I am honestly curious, if you are willing to spend the time to google benchmarks or get it from discord. Have you tried actually asking the people there how they feel about the overall dps situation? Especially for scourge?

 

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

10 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

"blah blah blah, one class is doing X and my class isn't matching "

There fixed it for you. I don't understand why people come here to complain about stuff, that in the long term doesn't even matter.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

2 hours ago, Tanachi.3951 said:

They should never nerf anything, and definitely not because some meta junkies made some tests on a training golem. If a class is strong in PvE, leave it be. Hell, make the rest of the classes as good as it is. Buffs >>> Nerfs. And if you really want a class to be nerfed in PvE, you should never post in the forums or reddit or anywhere ever again. I know this is gonna fall on deaf ears, and scourge/pistol/core necro is gonna get butcheted to the extreme, but oh well.

They don't care, they just care about x not doing what Y is doing but Z is falling behind due to cry's. They also don't think about those who 1. Don't buy "expansion" can you even call it that? 2. Those who play off meta stuff cause, let's face it, we all don't play meta. And "meta" is for tryhards. 

[Warscythes.9307]

9 minutes ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

There fixed it for you. I don't understand why people come here to complain about stuff, that in the long term doesn't even matter.

My account name is literally Warscythes, I mained guardian from beta for about and then necro ever since HoT. I do however care for the long term health of the game especially given how long I have played.

In the long term it absolutely matters and we are seeing the ramification even before SoTo. Content is being blown wide open because everyone's power went up by an absurd amount. This is not WoW, there is no vertical progression and the idea is all content should be evergreen. While some powercreep is unavoidable and few people wants to go back when average dps is 30k. The fact average dps is somewhere around 42-44k and one of the most reliable dps spec is the top of the food chain means everyone needs to be nerfed. Scourge in particular. At the VERY least to pre-SoTo levels and even then it will still be wildly out of balance.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

1 minute ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

My account name is literally Warscythes, I mained guardian from beta for about 3 years and then necro ever since HoT. I do however care for the long term health of the game especially given how long I have played.

In the long term it absolutely matters and we are seeing the ramification even before SoTo. Content is being blown wide open because everyone's power went up by an absurd amount. This is not WoW, there is no vertical progression and the idea is all content should be evergreen. While some powercreep is unavoidable and few people wants to go back when average dps is 30k. The fact average dps is somewhere around 42-44k and one of the most reliable dps spec is the top of the food chain means everyone needs to be nerfed. At the VERY least to pre-SoTo levels and even then it is nerfed.

In the long term it doesn't matter. Tell me how X DPS compared to Y DPS matters at all, cause at the end of day if matters to you that much, touch grass? 

Doesn't matter how long someone played. I've mained Necro before HoT, lol. 

IF content added is making powercreep like relics and stuff, then why does that call for a nerf of a class? Lol shouldn't the content that is adding it be nerfed? 

Your logic isn't matching