Scourge might be a bit too strong (49k dps)

[SpecterMAT.7306]

Honestly. I have no problem with the current scourge pve dps. I am a warrior main and I switched to scourge for strikes and raids and it feels amazing to play it. I think it should stay this or maybe 5%-10% nerf MAXIMUM. but i prefer no nerf.

Edited September 5, 2023 by SpecterMAT.7306

[Jijimuge.4675]

IMO another factor to look at is Trapper runes and probably also Aristocracy relic.

Moving from nightmare runes to that pairing, one goes from +175 condi dam and +15% condi dur (OK, and +10% fear, and the proc) to +300 condi dam and +30% condi dur (with 15% contingent on aristo activation, but it's trivially easy to activate on scourge).

That's a pretty significant buff, and should be borne in mind.  I've noticed a couple of my condi setups (non-necro) seeming like they had a bit more dps, too

Edited September 5, 2023 by Jijimuge.4675

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

At best with those 2 changes you suggest, you'll drop the current scourge damage from 49k to 46k. That's not even nearly enough, the problem is pistol, without pistol scourge was at 38k with those traits you want to nerf.

Pre-SotO (so no pistol), Scourge was benching 42k dps.  Post-SotO, most classes are benchmarking ~45kdps at their best, so nerfing Scourge to that 46k is bringing them in line.

If you think that 46kdps still isn't low enough, fine, I'll throw in one more of dropping Fell Beacon to a 5% burning increase down from 10%.  Once more, touches nothing but the overperforming build, still leaves said build viable.

 

But nerfing pistol will nerf harbinger (which doesn't need it) and any other necro spec that wants the weapon.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Nephalem.8921]

On 9/5/2023 at 11:26 PM, Jijimuge.4675 said:

IMO another factor to look at is Trapper runes and probably also Aristocracy relic.

Moving from nightmare runes to that pairing, one goes from +175 condi dam and +15% condi dur (OK, and +10% fear, and the proc) to +300 condi dam and +30% condi dur (with 15% contingent on aristo activation, but it's trivially easy to activate on scourge).

That's a pretty significant buff, and should be borne in mind.  I've noticed a couple of my condi setups (non-necro) seeming like they had a bit more dps, too

Akeem relic is a much bigger issue. Scourge can trigger it on cd which results in basically 4k+ dps just from relic. It is torment dmg and scourge has a 33% torment dmg mod for some reason. Best spec to trigger it in the first place and it does the most dmg per procc because reasons.

Akeem and fractal relics do approximately the same amount of dmg per procc but akeem relic has half the cd.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 9/6/2023 at 3:57 AM, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Pre-SotO (so no pistol), Scourge was benching 42k dps.  Post-SotO, most classes are benchmarking ~45kdps at their best, so nerfing Scourge to that 46k is bringing them in line.

If you think that 46kdps still isn't low enough, fine, I'll throw in one more of dropping Fell Beacon to a 5% burning increase down from 10%.  Once more, touches nothing but the overperforming build, still leaves said build viable.

 

But nerfing pistol will nerf harbinger (which doesn't need it) and any other necro spec that wants the weapon.

Most specs are not benching 45k. Only condi specs are benching that high because they got free dps with the relic. They lost nothing from new rune system and even gained dps from trapper runes. Meanwhile power builds lost scholar mod but gained 5% or 10% from thief/fireworks rune. That is way only 3 power builds are even reaching that high currently. Only builds benefitting from new weapons.

Condi builds double dipped on the change. Buffed from weapons and buffed from free dmg relic. The nightmare 6th rune slot was useless for most. Nightmare runes itself were bad with that useless fear duration yet they were still better than all the other bad runes. Now we have trapper runes which are just condi dmg and duration and a lot of it.

Even 40k scourge would be too much. That build is too kitten simple to perform that high. This game only punishes melee builds. It can not punish ranged. That is way ranged builds used to do lower dmg but they arent doing that anymore. Scourge is fully ranged, has barely a rotation and no animation lock. Even if it would do 40k it would still be preferable over harder specs in a lot of strike encounters.

Nerfing scourge to 46K would do nothing. it would still be the highest performing spec. It should be the lowest and it should not even be close. It has exactly 1 melee skill on a 60sec cd. Rest is completely ranged. New encounter design is extremely anti melee and movement heavy.

Quick harb is btw also overperforming at 37k+. It just does not get played that much because herald is even more busted. Meanwhile quickcata sits at 35k with a complete piano rotation that can not give quick with downtimes because anet thinks its totally fine for cata to have their boon application triple gated behind energy, an energy regen lockout because why not and cooldown itself and attunement swap cooldown. Quick scrapper can not even give might unless you drop quite a bit of dps.

Also we just had scourge meta a year ago. It was complete garbage. Happening again. All my groups are already 50% scourges again and it will get worse as soon as people realize how busted it is. Was asked in raids last week why i was playing it because he though it got nerfed into the ground. Sometimes im glad this playerbase never checks on balance updates or build sites. Otherwise there would be even more scourges.

[wolfsblut.9435]

Instead of (endlessly) nerfing or buffing the classes they should simply invest their effort into a better scaling of the raid-, fractal and strike-bosses depending on the (actual) damage a group is throwing at them period.

[Mewone.3247]

So you want a dynamic system that evaluates your raid dps and just makes every fight the same length by adjusting the boss hp accordingly?

Edited September 9, 2023 by Mewone.3247

[wolfsblut.9435]

1 hour ago, Mewone.3247 said:

So you want a dynamic system that evaluates your raid dps and just makes every fight the same length by adjusting the boss hp accordingly?

For the first part, yep. The length depends on the mastering of the mechanics ect.

No more complaining about a difference in DPS.....could you imagine?!

[Iucrum.5860]

2 hours ago, wolfsblut.9435 said:

For the first part, yep. The length depends on the mastering of the mechanics ect.

No more complaining about a difference in DPS.....could you imagine?!

I actually like the idea for this. It would help newer players in getting adjusted and allow end-game content to be a little more enticing. For casual players this would be great.

[Passerbye.6291]

19 hours ago, wolfsblut.9435 said:

Instead of (endlessly) nerfing or buffing the classes they should simply invest their effort into a better scaling of the raid-, fractal and strike-bosses depending on the (actual) damage a group is throwing at them period.

All this would do is create an entirely different meta, one that really wouldn't be better. You'd get 2 classes that can provide permanent superspeed, 1 or 2 chronos to maximize mobility, you'd then fill the rest with classes capable of providing barrier/aegis to maximize the amount of things you can face tank. Everyone would be running minstrels to maximize barrier/heal output, as well as survival and max HP to have a higher cap on barrier so you can avoid taking a single point of damage across entire fights. This would then allow you to stand in things like laser at the center at Xera, avoiding any time loss from having to clear crystals, resulting in an inevitable faster clear. You'd simply be rewarding cheese strats even more. Noone would do anything other than auto attacks ofc as it would render what actions you take entirely irrelevant for anything other than survival/mobility/utility. Everyone would be running ranged, tagging setups ofc., because why would you do anything else?
Actually you probably wouldn't even auto attack, just get some mechs/pets/clones in there to do that for you, why would we spend effort trying to face the direction of and follow a target, disgusting.

All these, and probably a few things I overlooked combined, you'd still have yourself a massive difference in the performance of organized groups and random pugs. There would still be a meta in place, likely one a lot more restrictive than the current one. Maybe this would reduce the gap, but in doing so, it would push away a significant portion of the playerbase, and create a bigger barrier to entry for new people, as they'd now require a separate set of tanking gear since dps still matters in open world to make things quicker.

All this to not bother balancing the game, and still end up having to balance the game, because, at the end of the day, if dps doesn't matter, utility/survival/mobility will. So you still have to balance the game, you saved yourself no hassle, shot yourself in the foot, gutted the depth of your game. Yeah, I'll say no thanks for that one.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[BatelGeuce.3591]

16 hours ago, wolfsblut.9435 said:

No more complaining about a difference in DPS.....could you imagine?!

I would like to know how you came to this conclusion.

Leaving the entire "the game should adjust to players, not the other way around" aside, your suggestion doesn't solve the difference in dps in any way. Except for the part where the people who actually do decent dps wouldn't need to carry the low dps for as long as they do now.

[wolfsblut.9435]

3 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

All this would do is create an entirely different meta

I never said that the scaling of dps should be that stupid. There should only be a cap so that the 35k or 49k discussion doesn't matter that much anymore. How do come to the conclusion that I meant something around lets say 2.5k should be enough?


 

[Passerbye.6291]

35 minutes ago, wolfsblut.9435 said:

never said that the scaling of dps should be that stupid. There should only be a cap so that the 35k or 49k discussion doesn't matter that much anymore. How do come to the conclusion that I meant something around lets say 2.5k should be enough?

20 hours ago, wolfsblut.9435 said:

21 hours ago, Mewone.3247 said:

So you want a dynamic system that evaluates your raid dps and just makes every fight the same length by adjusting the boss hp accordingly?

For the first part, yep. The length depends on the mastering of the mechanics ect.

No more complaining about a difference in DPS.....could you imagine?!

Interesting that.

If the length of the fight depends entirely on mechanics and where you want everyone to do the same dps, that is exactly what it means mate. But thanks for calling your own idea stupid and saying what we were all thinking. 

Now that you're trying to backpedal on that and trying to introduce a number that would be considered "acceptable", that opens an entirely different can of worms. People have complained about EoD meta requiring 7k average DPS across the squad, deeming it too high, going so far as calling people who thought that wasn't high elitists. 
So my question is, when we, as a playerbase, have difficulty determining a number for the bare minimum of dps for people to be able to do, even one as low as 7k, a number achievable with auto attacks on all classes, how do you propose to determine a number that everyone will be ok with? Especially considered we're talking about instanced content, which is by default supposed to be harder than the mentioned open world event. If you go 1-2k, we go back to my minstrel suggestion, if you call 7k, people will still call that too high, as they already have, if you go even higher because we have multiple builds around 20k with auto attacks only or well over that with low intensity builds, people are gonna lose their kitten and complain about having to play "meta" builds. 

Here comes the unpopular opinion, we have a variety of content that is aimed towards various types of players. Even among instanced content, we have things that are absolute snoozefests, serving as an introduction to ease new players into strikes/raids/fractals. We are even getting a PvE legendary armor set soon to allow people to do open world content only, should they desire to not engage raids. So, my question is, why are we trying to take away content, that is clearly aimed towards people who wish to challenge themselves? Raids have already been rendered easier to get started on with the introduction of emboldened, but guess what, it did nothing, because the more dps you make accessible to people, the worse a player who is not willing to put in any effort is going to play. Scourge dps went up to an obnoxious number as 49k, along with many others benching 45-46k, and people are still trying to somehow argue that it is ok, and there should be no nerfs, only buffs.
You know what, why stop there, let's go full diablo 3, I want to hit a trillion, I wanna see the life fade out of the eyes of puny raid bosses that dare cross paths with me!

Edited September 10, 2023 by Passerbye.6291
Typos and stuff, there are probably more.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:44 PM, wolfsblut.9435 said:

For the first part, yep. The length depends on the mastering of the mechanics ect.

No more complaining about a difference in DPS.....could you imagine?!

What would stop you from leeching them with 9 alt accounts though? If it scales down to 1 good player dps then nothing would stop this strategy.

[Mewone.3247]

This thread is the perfect example why Anet doesnt care for forum posts.

[Obtena.7952]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:43 AM, wolfsblut.9435 said:

Instead of (endlessly) nerfing or buffing the classes they should simply invest their effort into a better scaling of the raid-, fractal and strike-bosses depending on the (actual) damage a group is throwing at them period.

That ignores the fact that even if Anet scales the encounters to the offensive capability of the team, it can't scale that encounter to the team's defensive capability. That ... matters ALOT. 

As for the topic, the endless nerfing/buffing isn't JUST a result of encounter scaling. It's also to ensure all specs/classes are a relevant, meaningful choices to each other as well. We already know that's important as well. That's why we know the perfect storm of Heal Alac Scourge doing top DPS is going to get some real attention and hit with some nerfs (if it doesn't, then Anet's design philosophy is just a load of S**T).  We hope that those nerfs are specific to Scourge only. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[ugrakarma.9416]

- Anet give pistol with op damage to scourge(nobody asked for it).

- ppl call to nerf scourge to the ground or make it a pure support class lol.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

- Anet give pistol with op damage to scourge(nobody asked for it).

- ppl call to nerf scourge to the ground or make it a pure support class lol.

As a matter of fact, pre-pistol hazard, there were already peoples wanting Scourge to be a pure support and peoples unsatisfied by the damage output of the Scourge. One of the 2 sides got what they wanted (not how they wanted it, thought) while the other side is more infuriated than ever.

[Axl.8924]

21 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Interesting that.

If the length of the fight depends entirely on mechanics and where you want everyone to do the same dps, that is exactly what it means mate. But thanks for calling your own idea stupid and saying what we were all thinking. 

Now that you're trying to backpedal on that and trying to introduce a number that would be considered "acceptable", that opens an entirely different can of worms. People have complained about EoD meta requiring 7k average DPS across the squad, deeming it too high, going so far as calling people who thought that wasn't high elitists. 
So my question is, when we, as a playerbase, have difficulty determining a number for the bare minimum of dps for people to be able to do, even one as low as 7k, a number achievable with auto attacks on all classes, how do you propose to determine a number that everyone will be ok with? Especially considered we're talking about instanced content, which is by default supposed to be harder than the mentioned open world event. If you go 1-2k, we go back to my minstrel suggestion, if you call 7k, people will still call that too high, as they already have, if you go even higher because we have multiple builds around 20k with auto attacks only or well over that with low intensity builds, people are gonna lose their kitten and complain about having to play "meta" builds. 

Here comes the unpopular opinion, we have a variety of content that is aimed towards various types of players. Even among instanced content, we have things that are absolute snoozefests, serving as an introduction to ease new players into strikes/raids/fractals. We are even getting a PvE legendary armor set soon to allow people to do open world content only, should they desire to not engage raids. So, my question is, why are we trying to take away content, that is clearly aimed towards people who wish to challenge themselves? Raids have already been rendered easier to get started on with the introduction of emboldened, but guess what, it did nothing, because the more dps you make accessible to people, the worse a player who is not willing to put in any effort is going to play. Scourge dps went up to an obnoxious number as 49k, along with many others benching 45-46k, and people are still trying to somehow argue that it is ok, and there should be no nerfs, only buffs.
You know what, why stop there, let's go full diablo 3, I want to hit a trillion, I wanna see the life fade out of the eyes of puny raid bosses that dare cross paths with me!

 

what if there was more use for debuffs like boon rip on raid bosses? say for instance constantly having a warrior boonripping necromancer maybe a mesmer.

[Passerbye.6291]

2 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

what if there was more use for debuffs like boon rip on raid bosses? say for instance constantly having a warrior boonripping necromancer maybe a mesmer.

Chronomancer already does that with phantasmal berserker, can also trait to have shatters remove boons, can also equip any one or combination of null field, arcane thievery, phantasmal disenchanter, well of senility.

They already moved away from class specific buffs, so I find it highly unlikely for them to introduce unique ways for us to require different classes, or something like a bonus for each unique class you have. 
If we're talking about any kind of debuff, in that case, we'll still have a meta where you'll use the builds with the highest range and uptime of whatever debuffs are required stacked enough in number to ensure optimal conditions, and the rest will go back to what I previously suggested.
Now, take into consideration the fact that adding these concepts into instanced content will basically result in the same thing we have. People who are capable of executing their rotation better than others will perform better, sending us back to the reality where people who don't wish to put in any effort will fall behind. My question is, why are we trying to remove DPS as a factor, and then introduce something new, requiring a lot of unnecessary effort to achieve, in essence, the same thing. 

The thing is, we already had things that made certain builds shine in some content. Take confusion for instance, for the longest time, it made condi mirage the go to for fast attacking bosses. But guess what, it got repeatedly nerfed to the point that it has recently rendered condi mirage worthless. Similarly, back when scourge was benching 37k, during prenerf epidemic, scourges were absolutely amazing for any condi group in fights requiring trash clear, because epidemic was able to single-handedly take care of it, it got nerfed hard.
Also, with the way endgame is organized in this game, having an all arounder that can take care of as many mechanics as possible is usually preferred over builds designed to achieve very specific things, because in the end, switching between classes in the middle of a run just for one boss often results in more time loss than whatever speed you gain during the fight itself, rendering versatility a lot more desirable than niche builds. The exceptions to these would be things that you can't do without in a certain fight, though even then, people just bring the class that has said niche, and only switch to that build on the go, instead of hopping between multiple characters.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Passerbye.6291
Edit: Forgot to mention a few things.

[Tiviana.2650]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:40 PM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Scourge should not have a viable pure DPS option. It should be a support alac and healer only. It's never taxed for it's obscene utility at all with it's DPS numbers and it keeps causing issues.

We went over this twice already with this company, once during POF and once during IBS, why do they keep making the same mistake?+

WHAT THE ABSOLUTE...? Of course it should have a dps option. It had dps as the main played option since it came out. Plenty of healers have pure dps options or dps have heal options. Mech firebrand ele druid just about everyone now has a dps or heal/support option. If anything I always found the idea of scourge as heals a little silly, maybe its my background coming from warlocks and necromancers but to me scourge has always been more of a dot till dead class

[rotten.9753]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:18 PM, Tiviana.2650 said:

WHAT THE ABSOLUTE...? Of course it should have a dps option. It had dps as the main played option since it came out. Plenty of healers have pure dps options or dps have heal options. Mech firebrand ele druid just about everyone now has a dps or heal/support option. If anything I always found the idea of scourge as heals a little silly, maybe its my background coming from warlocks and necromancers but to me scourge has always been more of a dot till dead class

Then it needs to have its utility gutted when playing as a pure DPS build. You can't have great utility and good DPS at the same time because other builds can't compete with that. We've seen what happens when Scourge has good DPS with all of its utility.

[Dadnir.5038]

9 minutes ago, rotten.9753 said:

Then it needs to have its utility gutted when playing as a pure DPS build. You can't have great utility and good DPS at the same time because other builds can't compete with that. We've seen what happens when Scourge has good DPS with all of its utility.

Define "utility".

Every single dps in this game provide "utility" that most players don't even register. These utilities come in various form: boons, conditions, heal, rally, barrier and cleanse, of course, but also combo fields, blast finishers, projectile hate, boon hate, block and some "exotic" form of support like vampiric presence, venom, aura, the ability to ignore a lethal blow, damage transfert, condition transfert, party wide stun break, teleport, stealth, stance share, arcane power, boon duration extension (Herald's true nature, elementalist's warhorn heat sinc) or additional source of damage (firebrand's ashes of the just)... etc.

Among those, some appeal more to players while other are often thought as useless or simply granted.

The truth is that DPS Scourge don't have a greater amount of support than any other profession. All the build offer is a 260 barrier per/s (at most since there is still a need to manage life force), some might and cleanse. Objectively, It's an amount of support that nobody would look at if scourge didn't have excessive dps. Now, the build itself is open to support utilities but with each support utility you take, the damage output drop a bit like it does on any other profession.

Just to make a point:

• Specter dps offer: Area heal, might, fury, swiftness, combo field, venom, cleanse, blast finisher, barrier... etc.
• Catalyst dps offer: fire field, lightning field, water field, poison field, prot, swiftness, resolution, fury, might, regen, boon extension, heal, blast... etc.
• Holo dps is compartively low with: Swiftness, might, blast, fire field and smoke field (useful for stealth)
• Druid dps: fire field, water field, light field, blast, heal (lot of heal), cleanse, might... etc.
• ... etc.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think alot of this comes down to a flaw in the original design of the game that full-glass dps-oriented characters can still have decent healing, barrier, etc. without healing power. this was disliked from the game's introduction, and all the way through the expansions.

 

similarly, boons have too large of base durations, and cleanses are too strong, both without any build investment.

 

this isn't a scourge problem; it affects nearly every class in the game and is the main reason you can make parties of all dps with one bringing quickness and another alacrity, and still clear  content without any healer, because dealing damage weakens your support but doesn't negate it entirely.

 

when you can run full berserker/viper/etc. and still have half the maximum strength of your heals and boons, it results in stuff like this.

Edited September 16, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Nephalem.8921]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:01 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Define "utility".

Every single dps in this game provide "utility" that most players don't even register. These utilities come in various form: boons, conditions, heal, rally, barrier and cleanse, of course, but also combo fields, blast finishers, projectile hate, boon hate, block and some "exotic" form of support like vampiric presence, venom, aura, the ability to ignore a lethal blow, damage transfert, condition transfert, party wide stun break, teleport, stealth, stance share, arcane power, boon duration extension (Herald's true nature, elementalist's warhorn heat sinc) or additional source of damage (firebrand's ashes of the just)... etc.

Among those, some appeal more to players while other are often thought as useless or simply granted.

The truth is that DPS Scourge don't have a greater amount of support than any other profession. All the build offer is a 260 barrier per/s (at most since there is still a need to manage life force), some might and cleanse. Objectively, It's an amount of support that nobody would look at if scourge didn't have excessive dps. Now, the build itself is open to support utilities but with each support utility you take, the damage output drop a bit like it does on any other profession.

Just to make a point:

• Specter dps offer: Area heal, might, fury, swiftness, combo field, venom, cleanse, blast finisher, barrier... etc.
• Catalyst dps offer: fire field, lightning field, water field, poison field, prot, swiftness, resolution, fury, might, regen, boon extension, heal, blast... etc.
• Holo dps is compartively low with: Swiftness, might, blast, fire field and smoke field (useful for stealth)
• Druid dps: fire field, water field, light field, blast, heal (lot of heal), cleanse, might... etc.
• ... etc.

But scourge has access to busted utility? You forgot to mention that it is COMPLETELY RANGED. This means that it has an advantage over other builds in almost every fight. Do not undersell the permanent condi cleanse. It is carrying 100cm and ankka cm.

It only really needs 1 utility for dps. The other 2 are just minor dps or lf generation. A lot of bosses have adds or add phases which completely replenish your lf so you are not depending on those. It also has -15% incoming damage on top of being the highest health profession with almost no loss from taking trailblazers. It is also quite a lot of might and not just some. Tons of cc. The dmg output does not drop for taking 1-2 support utilities.

The ranged cleave alone coupled with epi or spectral grasp for pulls is cheesing encounter design like MO, KO cm or Ankka cm where you can cleave adds without losing any boss dps. Cvirtu can do this too which is also an issue.

Catalyst is melee. You forgot to mention that. How can holo give swiftness? Forge 2? Massive dps loss, low duration and people would have to walk through field. Sure you could blast hammer 5 with mine. Not a lot though. Holo has 0 aoe might. Big problem of qscrapper aswell. You need to take blast gyro for might which lowers the dps even more because the devs in their infinite wisdom thought that the might from kinetic accelerators in pvp is not needed in pve so it is only quickness there.

Smoke field is not used anywhere except for 1 fractal where it is just nice to have. Irrelevant utility in pve.

Specter is another completely broken spec but it has at least a downside. It can not cleave. Even loses target dps with adds close by.

Positioning does not matter with scourge which is one of the most important aspects of pve encounter design. Therefore it completely breaks and cheeses those.

On 9/16/2023 at 11:04 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

alot of this comes down to a flaw in the original design of the game that full-glass dps-oriented characters can still have decent healing, barrier, etc. without healing power. this was disliked from the game's introduction, and all the way through the expansions.

 

similarly, boons have too large of base durations, and cleanses are too strong, both without any build investment.

This is a nonsensical argument. If you nerf boon base durations 1 of 2 things will happen.

• Having boons is still better than no boons so you will run one or multiple boon supports to reach 100% uptime. Group dps will change but nothing else. Specs with passive boon generation in their dps rotations would be preferred.
• Opting for such boons is a dps loss over another pure dps. This would result in just playing without boon supports and we would be back to 5 dps dungeon days but this time even without might.

Supports requiring 100% or 0% bd for their role does not matter at all. Their dps matters. There is no difference in achieving this via giving up a strong dps trait or requiring boon duration. Giving up a dps trait is better though because it prevents you from just stacking 3 pure dps builds which could provide ~35% uptime on their own. We had this in the past. 4dhs, 7 chronos, 4 catas etc. Giving up dps traits is better than a high bd requirement.

On the other hand some people think support should feel horrible to play and should not do any dmg. We also had this in the past and it felt horrible for support players. Ever been in in fractal pug as a support chrono when your pugs would somehow do less dps than some aa builds? Well nothing you can do about that because your own build does basically no dmg either. Currently you can carry on support builds because they are just ~20% behind pure dps if you ignore the busted specs like scourge or specter.

On 9/16/2023 at 11:04 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

this isn't a scourge problem; it affects nearly every class in the game and is the main reason you can make parties of all dps with one bringing quickness and another alacrity, and still clear  content without any healer, because dealing damage weakens your support but doesn't negate it entirely.

 

when you can run full berserker/viper/etc. and still have half the maximum strength of your heals and boons, it results in stuff like this.

This is not true. A healer heals for far more than twice than a dps. It is not just gear. A lot of the healing comes from traits aswell which also costs dps. The problem is that healing in this game is overpowered while there are almost no healing checks at all. But they can not do healing checks because most healer players are completely and utterly useless. Well technically most dps players too. That is why we also do not really have dps checks.

Just look at vale guardian. Almost a decade old. People have solo healed that boss with far less powercreep in the game and when i join a pug with current powercreep a lot of groups still have people dying to explosions with 2 healers. Or look at boneskinner. It is easier with 2 decent players from my ht static on healers than it is with 4 pug healers.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Nephalem.8921