SOTO writing is great and is on right direction. [spoilers] [Merged]

[EdwinLi.1284]

3 hours ago, phandaria.4891 said:

 

 

The Bad

"That is Isgarren's preference". What a stupid way to acknowledge and address a plothole, when the Commander offered to bring an army to help them.

There is a simpler way to address this. Most humanoids are simply a fodder for demon, especially Kryptis, due to their emotions. To fight them, it requires a certain quality/strength of the soul/emotion which the Wizards or other Astral Warders can detect. Bringing an army will only feed and strengthen the Kryptis without any benefit. Logistic wise, Astral Ward has amassed more than enough supplies/weaponries/magical artifacts/knowledge in their millennia of existence that no other organization or country can fathom, hence there is no benefit from them bringing others in.

 

It is dumb but it is also the most common logic behind most "secret organization fighting in a secret war against a secret threat for centuries" Groups. These guys always shorten their reasoning to that type of logic even when things gets worse until things becomes too far out of control,

Of course we do get to understand it better when doing the Achievement stuff being, as you said, only specific people are recuited and their skills must be decent enough to meet certain requirements. They also never had their enemy reach Tyria in a massive scale yet since what they have been doing for centuries has kept them only in smaller appearances they easily contain within a day or less.

Either way with things escalating slowly, it is only a matter of time before everyone else figures out what is going on and maybe join in slowly either next part of the story or the story following that near the finale.

Edited August 30, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, phandaria.4891 said:

"That is Isgarren's preference". What a stupid way to acknowledge and address a plothole, when the Commander offered to bring an army to help them.

There is a simpler way to address this. Most humanoids are simply a fodder for demon, especially Kryptis, due to their emotions. To fight them, it requires a certain quality/strength of the soul/emotion which the Wizards or other Astral Warders can detect. Bringing an army will only feed and strengthen the Kryptis without any benefit. Logistic wise, Astral Ward has amassed more than enough supplies/weaponries/magical artifacts/knowledge in their millennia of existence that no other organization or country can fathom, hence there is no benefit from them bringing others in.

At the intro to the expansion we read a letter that explicitly goes "We asked about recruiting the commander, Isgarren said no, so we will respect that. Don't let the commander know what's up because you will run into them."

It'd not the commander offering to bring in a few elite heroes to help things out who can keep a secret (as Isgarren or somebody else comments they'd probably end up recruiting people from this era based on them), but an entire army.

Hundreds to thousands of people won't keep a secret. Also, bringing in an army like that without proper preparation could backfire as they may get terrified of the Kryptis, exposing themselves to possession.

The expansion makes it explicitly clear there is the immortal Wizard Court, and the mortal Astral Ward. The wizard's court says X, the rest honor it. The Wizard's court operates in the long term, and this isn't some invading army or mostly mindless dragon minion horde.



Unrelated to that part, I truly think there is an element of SOTO which is not "These are great written characters" but the fact that there is no baggage. Nobody is going into this chapter rolling their eyes and hating it all because they dislike Braham or Taimi or Canach. "Comedy" level was joking among friends mostly, but if you hate Braham, you dislike the joke. And I've seen a lot of people who fix their opinion of characters and then never change that view.

This time we have brand new characters, but also we are all experiencing them for the same time so new players aren't being bombarded with "X sucks. Y is stupid. Z we should've never let in the group" and affecting their opinions.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[phandaria.4891]

4 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

It is dumb but it is also the most common logic behind most "secret organization fighting in a secret war against a secret threat for centuries" Groups. These guys always shorten their reasoning to that type of logic even when things gets worse until things becomes too far out of control,

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Hundreds to thousands of people won't keep a secret. Also, bringing in an army like that without proper preparation could backfire as they may get terrified of the Kryptis, exposing themselves to possession.

My issue is not with the reasoning, it is something that I just made up, but anything is better than "The boss' preference" when the said boss is MIA. Arenanet decided to address a plothole that early in the chapter whereby the dynamics of Astral Ward's denizens or details regarding Kryptis were still scarce and the audience should take that the reason is simply a "preference".

I feel it's just a badly done part compared to the rest of the story, which can easily be fixed with proper explanation. 

 

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Unrelated to that part, I truly think there is an element of SOTO which is not "These are great written characters" but the fact that there is no baggage. Nobody is going into this chapter rolling their eyes and hating it all because they dislike Braham or Taimi or Canach. "Comedy" level was joking among friends mostly, but if you hate Braham, you dislike the joke. And I've seen a lot of people who fix their opinion of characters and then never change that view.

This time we have brand new characters, but also we are all experiencing them for the same time so new players aren't being bombarded with "X sucks. Y is stupid. Z we should've never let in the group" and affecting their opinions.

Definitely a breath of fresh air. Good pick for Zojja too, who serve as a bridge to this new group while she herself hardly had any interaction with us for the past many arcs.

Edited August 30, 2023 by phandaria.4891

[Furball.1236]

Just wanted to stop by and say thank you to all the devs involved in the story writing, graphic designs, and music composition!

I loved the new SOTO story so far and the new maps! I hope see more in the future updates, and please, don't rush them as story is so important for me to feel attachment to my character and the game 🙂

[Teknomancer.4895]

19 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I very much disagree here. I am not a huge Trek fan but there are very, very notable differences in behavior between kryptis and borg, or our female voice friend (censored for anyone not finished) and the Borg Queen.

I said "influences," that doesn't mean I'm accusing ANet of an exact one-to-one ripoff.

I am a Trek fan, and across all series and movies where they've appeared, there are more dimensions to the Borg than you might think, especially the Queen.

Isn't it cool how different people can see different things? Peace.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 8/30/2023 at 4:48 PM, Teknomancer.4895 said:

I said "influences," that doesn't mean I'm accusing ANet of an exact one-to-one ripoff.

Wasn't saying anything about a one-to-one ripoff either.

I just don't see enough similarities beyond potential coincidences because of similar tropes. But that's a very broad coverage and Star Trek is neither the only nor most popular usage of the tropes they may share.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 8/30/2023 at 2:41 PM, phandaria.4891 said:

My issue is not with the reasoning, it is something that I just made up, but anything is better than "The boss' preference" when the said boss is MIA. Arenanet decided to address a plothole that early in the chapter whereby the dynamics of Astral Ward's denizens or details regarding Kryptis were still scarce and the audience should take that the reason is simply a "preference".

I feel it's just a badly done part compared to the rest of the story, which can easily be fixed with proper explanation.

I personally liked the reasoning. It made sense.

Isgarren was solely focused on Eparch. When he formed the Wizard's Court, he was willing to protect among many things, but as Lyhr says in Tower of Secrets: Isgarren tends to focus on a singular goal, and for a long time his goal has been Eparch. It isn't merely "the boss's preference", it is a tunnel-visioned leader who puts the ends before the means. The discussion highlights it well, to me:

Lyhr: When was the last time you helped save a local farm from a group of bandits?

Lyhr: Would you save them if, say, the champion of a dragon slept nearby? Would you go kill that instead?

Lyhr: Isgarren is a complicated fellow, and that's not to excuse his poor choices—he's far from perfect.

Lyhr: When he has a goal, he stays focused, and he's had the same one for...a while.

<Character name>: Keeping Eparch away?

Lyhr: Aye. Something happened between the two of them, back in the era of magic. Before the "gods" came.

Lyhr: He's been so focused on keeping the Kryptis out that he often neglected those inside.

Lyhr: We're atoning for that mistake now. We've got Eparch's lapdogs on Tyria's stoop.

<Character name>: I'd save the farm.

Lyhr: And Isgarren would mourn the loss. You are similar in some ways, but very different in others.

And yeah, it is dumb. But it's dumb from a watsonian perspective. It's a character flaw that Isgarren has, not a plothole or dumb from a doylist perspective.

Isgarren and the Commander are repeatedly compared to each other throughout SotO as being very similar. But the key difference is in that dialogue: Isgarren would ignore the immediate issue in favor of dealing with his long-standing (and rather personal) goal of defending the world and civilizations in a broad, categorical sense, while the Commander would put things aside to help as many people as possible.

And I love that foil between the two characters. It's something that puts them as allies, but can easily cause conflict between them - and in turn, character growth, if handled right.

[Incar.7358]

I have enjoyed the writing almost completely so far, even the long opening - although it feels no longer than previous prologue segments, and I've already done it 5 times. The immediate out-of-your-depth feeling you get going into the first portal is spot on.

While still absolutely fascinating, and a player gripe for many years that the Mursaat story was rushed or misused in season 3, I found it a little jarring to suddenly have a Mursaat there. Not to mention have Livia being OK with that, even if there has been an off-screen arch in coming to cope with it. There seems to have been a good deal of narrative backflipping to accommodate it too.
And then, even worse, once you're finally invested in this jarring character placement, they're unceremonially killed off.

I'm curious and hopeful we'll glean a lot more lore regarding the Mursaat and Seers still, and wonder what people's thoughts are on Mabon's and Isgarren's relationship, given the Commander is compared to Isgarren and has recently been introduced to Peitha: a character of the enemy race who they're now working with and learning to trust.
While not a new plot device, it's clearly and hopefully going somewhere truly interesting.

Also, I did the Leo DiCaprio meme of pointing at the screen when Galrath appeared. My fondest memories of GW1 are questing with friends to fight Galrath outside the Wizard's Tower.
So, if there's anything SoTO needs going forward, it needs more Galrath.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Incar.7358
Clarity

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I personally liked the reasoning. It made sense.

Isgarren was solely focused on Eparch. When he formed the Wizard's Court, he was willing to protect among many things, but as Lyhr says in Tower of Secrets: Isgarren tends to focus on a singular goal, and for a long time his goal has been Eparch. It isn't merely "the boss's preference", it is a tunnel-visioned leader who puts the ends before the means. The discussion highlights it well, to me:

Lyhr: When was the last time you helped save a local farm from a group of bandits?

Lyhr: Would you save them if, say, the champion of a dragon slept nearby? Would you go kill that instead?

Lyhr: Isgarren is a complicated fellow, and that's not to excuse his poor choices—he's far from perfect.

Lyhr: When he has a goal, he stays focused, and he's had the same one for...a while.

<Character name>: Keeping Eparch away?

Lyhr: Aye. Something happened between the two of them, back in the era of magic. Before the "gods" came.

Lyhr: He's been so focused on keeping the Kryptis out that he often neglected those inside.

Lyhr: We're atoning for that mistake now. We've got Eparch's lapdogs on Tyria's stoop.

<Character name>: I'd save the farm.

Lyhr: And Isgarren would mourn the loss. You are similar in some ways, but very different in others.

And yeah, it is dumb. But it's dumb from a watsonian perspective. It's a character flaw that Isgarren has, not a plothole or dumb from a doylist perspective.

Isgarren and the Commander are repeatedly compared to each other throughout SotO as being very similar. But the key difference is in that dialogue: Isgarren would ignore the immediate issue in favor of dealing with his long-standing (and rather personal) goal of defending the world and civilizations in a broad, categorical sense, while the Commander would put things aside to help as many people as possible.

And I love that foil between the two characters. It's something that puts them as allies, but can easily cause conflict between them - and in turn, character growth, if handled right.

Also the dynamic between the Astral ward (Almost all mortals) and the immortal wizards court. The lower is focused on the fighting, while the upper is focused on the long term goal of keeping these threats out for good. 

While the Ward may love to bring in the commander (as noted in first instance) or reinforcements, they must abide by the Court's choices. 

And even their personal views on "Save the village or kill the champion" relates to how they approach the problem. Isgarren himself notes in the end how he has refused to ask for help.. or accept it when offered as a flaw. The Commander will go out to seek out help and allies to strength their efforts.

[vandrefalk.6823]

I personally have enjoyed the full story in SotO and rank it as one of the best pieces of storytelling so far in GW2 actually, possibly because we finally have some antagonists other than Elder Dragons... Scarlet Briar was probably the previous villain I enjoyed to some extent, however that was marred by some god ex machina elements.

It felt good to leave the old world behind; the prologue going into the Horn of Maguuma (including the little unintended detour into Nayos) felt well handled and had a good flow, and daring to tell a serious, darker story. I initially got worried being ambushed by that Canthan journalist - oh here we go more slapstick - but in the end those worries got laid to rest and I've thoroughly enjoyed the story.

And I didn't mind the whispers and demonic influence after having crossed into their realm; the explanation made sense, and they remained secretive long enough for me to guess at the intention of this strange voice... to what purpose was I being guided like a puppet; and still, after reaching the conclusion of this first part, there is lots of room for development for a lot of characters.

[voltaicbore.8012]

I've been impressed with SotO overall, the only sore spot being missing relics (and potentially never getting back some relic functionality, although that remains to be seen). However I am especially impressed with the story, for reasons a lot of people have already put in the thread. Above all else I think the levity/humor moments were done better in SotO than anywhere else in the game thus far. No slapstick or endless teenage-grade banter - just stuff like R'tchikk fangirling from time to time.

Overall I have to say I'm very pleased Anet proved me dead wrong about my initial pessimism for SotO. I was concerned that the replacement of dailies with the Vault was just change for the sake of change, and I was completely wrong about it. I was concerned that grinds like rifts hinted at the same old "Anet can't figure out how to put out enough content" issues, but I feel this is some of most pleasantly replayable content we've seen in a long time.

I could go on, but TLDR is I was dooming on SotO, but am ecstatic about being wrong. Congratulations, Anet - you've regained my faith and interest thus far.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I enjoyed the SotO story overall, but I wanted to give particular praise to Zojja.  I was excited to see her again and find out how they'd reintroduce her after all these years and surprised to see a side of her we've never seen before.  The vulnerable state of this traditionally "prickly" character was really brought to life by some excellent voicework.  It felt very emotional and that made it more immersive than I generally expect from GW2 story content.  This was a huge step up in quality from the previous episodes which were, frankly, awful.

I also liked the way they wrapped this episode up and am looking forward to finding out more about the enemy (who is thankfully not another stupid dragon!).  All in all, this was a pretty solid addition to the story.

[Imba.9451]

Truth be told, I didn't expect this.

Ever from Jokos death onwards, I considered GW2 to be in a declining stake. The story was aimless, besides "let's get done with the dragons", and you seemed to throw alot of stuff on the wall to see what sticks. It was painful to see the world of Guild Wars, wich I spent way too much time in as a teenager, stray from the potential that the world of Tyria held. Thats why I planned on not playing the expansion.

But then, based on some recommendations, I did. And I am glad I did.

As it turned out, going into a new direction was exactly what the story needed (At least for me). I liked the setup of the new villains and how the story doesn't feel rushed. I like the new (and returning) characters. I like how you tap into setups that have been in the game for years (or in some cases, since GW1 launch) and continue to expand that threat instead of cutting off loose ends and only throwing in new stuff that gets resolved instantly (cough, void, cough).

The story progression feels decently paced. Still a little too fast for my taste, but overall okay. I was invested. I read the journals ingame, instead of on the wiki, because i wanted to know more about the characters and their backstories. I genuinly felt invested in Zojjas character arc (even though it's semingly very inspired by Frodo from LOTR). Her pain felt relatable and brought a critical lens into the picture, from wich we could see the worlds inhabitants, and the downsides of at least Asuran society, instead of "haha funny technobabble gnomes".

I know, bringing back Zojja and Mursaat is blatant fanservice. And that won't sit well with everyone. But it does for me. And despite not forgetting the low points of GW2's story (IBS, wasted deaths of Joko, Lazarus and Mai Trin, drAGoNVoiD and everything Braham touched, talked to or was ever involved with), I wanna go out of my was that I, who has repetedly posted my mostly more than negative opinions on the game in this forum, am positively suprised and somehow (even if still a little cautiously) optimistic for the future. It`s been a while since I was excited for what comes next, rather than just playing because I was with this franchise from the beginning. I know, this Addon was just a setup. It could go anywhere from here. But I dare to believe again.

 

Chapeau.

[GeraldBC.4927]

I'm in the same boat. For obvious reasons I hated how the new story additions throughout GW2 violated the lore of Guild Wars in ways that were petty and mean-spirited. Even in the new texts found in the world, some of that resentment against the first game's lore on the part of whoever wrote it still shines through.

But something about certain developments around the time of the Silent Surf release and the SotO announcement like the complete shift on their balance philosophy gave me the impression that someone who wasn't at Anet before had taken the reins. Anet suddenly started implementing ideas that would seem intuitive and obvious to a regular person, but - judging by their actions - were considered blasphemous within the studio. Stuff like expanding crucial group boons to classes and specs that were treated as black sheep for years prior, buffing said black sheep classes to a point where they actually keep up with top performing builds and even outdo them for a brief time, overhauling the archaic daily system that had been in place for as long as the game itself, handing out larger amounts of rewards to the same accounts at no loss to themselves, adding bugfixes to dungeons that had been untouched for almost a decade, there was more but I don't remember it off hand. 

It gave me reason to believe that something crucial had changed internally right around the tunnel episode. I decided to give Anet a chance to prove me wrong on certain things and they did. They CAN improve, they CAN fix bugs. They can even make the previously unthinkable a reality and swap out Zojja's condescension for introspection. They actually took one of their darling characters who  - at least previously - could never be wrong about something without the fabric of reality ripping apart - and made her stop and think: "Wait, am I in the wrong here?" This has not happened before. 

 

To whoever at Anet may be reading this, if any of the above speculation is accurate, if said new mystery person exists and makes a suggestion and you find yourself thinking "wait we can't do that", stop that thought immediately. Whatever he's suggesting to do this time, you CAN do it and going by past examples, you probably SHOULD do it as well. 

[ugrakarma.9416]

2 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

But something about certain developments around the time of the Silent Surf release and the SotO announcement like the complete shift on their balance philosophy gave me the impression that someone who wasn't at Anet before had taken the reins. Anet suddenly started implementing ideas that would seem intuitive and obvious to a regular person, but - judging by their actions - were considered blasphemous within the studio. 

I had similar theory for long time, i think since NCSoft step in, they started change things.

some blasphemies to old "staff" they did:

- build / equipment slots.

- return of LS1.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 9/13/2023 at 8:10 PM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

I'm in the same boat. For obvious reasons I hated how the new story additions throughout GW2 violated the lore of Guild Wars in ways that were petty and mean-spirited. Even in the new texts found in the world, some of that resentment against the first game's lore on the part of whoever wrote it still shines through.

 

I get dislike change, but I don't see how GW2 is "violating the lore in petty and mean spiritted ways" or showing any resentment to the first game, as somebody who has played all of GW1 and enjoyed it just as much as gw2. 

[Imba.9451]

8 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I get dislike change, but I don't see how GW2 is "violating the lore in petty and mean spiritted ways" or showing any resentment to the first game, as somebody who has played all of GW1 and enjoyed it just as much as gw2. 

Balthazar is basically a completely different character in GW2, and his actions do not align with what we got told about him in GW1. Thats probably the biggest and most obvious thing to point out.

But then are more little things, that have always bugged me over the years. Like a big chunk of GW1 characters meeting a terrible fate. Joko being Aurene Ex machina'd. Ascalon still not being resolved.

To me, it is very clears that the direction of the story went extremly headless over the years, with no clear direction other than: "On we go to the next big boi!" until even the devs seemed exhausted by this and rushed things to an end with Jormag and primordus, and cobbled together a quick story around bubbles.

And let's not forget how the game treats Braham as a dear friend to the commander and wants the player to accept him into the group, when the things he does are downright terrible. A clear dissonance about what the game wants you to feel and what is actually shown.

 

Maybe thats why I like Soto so much. Because it's a fresh start, and not written into a corner like the Elder Dragons.

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Balthazar is basically a completely different character in GW2, and his actions do not align with what we got told about him in GW1. Thats probably the biggest and most obvious thing to point out.

While yes, he is a different character, that's also kinda the point that exists with him. He is NOT the same person he was before, and that's why he's dangerous as hell.

8 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

But then are more little things, that have always bugged me over the years. Like a big chunk of GW1 characters meeting a terrible fate. Joko being Aurene Ex machina'd. Ascalon still not being resolved.

A chunk of GW1 characters died in combat because they were heroes who put themselves on the front lines against terrible forces that we knew WON back when the movement of the world released. We knew Joko won, we knew Purity won. We knew Ascalon fell entirely. It's not surprising that the characters who lived and worked there ended up dying, sometimes horribly, because they stood the line against a force that we long knew ended up winning. Ascalon not being resolved means what? The ghosts? The brand (has been resolved and cleaned up). 

8 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

To me, it is very clears that the direction of the story went extremly headless over the years, with no clear direction other than: "On we go to the next big boi!" until even the devs seemed exhausted by this and rushed things to an end with Jormag and primordus, and cobbled together a quick story around bubbles.

I mean it's literally a well known fact that IBS was intended to be longer and then got cut short. That's not even speculation. 

8 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

And let's not forget how the game treats Braham as a dear friend to the commander and wants the player to accept him into the group, when the things he does are downright terrible. A clear dissonance about what the game wants you to feel and what is actually shown.

I'd like to point out that the game doesn't treat Braham as a dear friend who can do no wrong, and infact has his failings called out and it takes what, an entire season + expansion *and even then not fully) worth of time for the two characters to even fully reconcile their relationship and become friends again? Braham literally splits from the commander and hates them for a good while over Heart of Thorns and Eir's death, and then the commander trying to take the fire magic imbued bow away (basically telling a Norn to ditch a chance to make his legend immortal, dumb move from that perspective).

Then we know Braham literally isn't speaking to the commander for the rest of Season 3, all of Path of Fire, and for a solid chunk of Season 4. The only reason they even interact is because Braham fell through a portal and ended up in the same room, and even then they barely interacted with anything but hostility. The two briefly bonded over being stuck in the mists, and Eir's ghost helped smooth some issues but they don't actually be friends again full until basically IBS.

And Braham gets drunk because Ryland literally was forcing him to constantly grab drinks to get black-out drunk during the festival and Braham was manipulated into it all.

Braham does a few terrible things and literally does hurt his relationship with the commander, and it's actually dealt with. The fact people cannot stand him and thus refuse to actually acknowledge any story beats that involve him is their problem, not the games. I'm sorry but a lot of people literally decided to hate him and think the only way he can ever be redeemed is by brutal death, and won't actually look at anything involving him seriously.

[Imba.9451]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

While yes, he is a different character, that's also kinda the point that exists with him. He is NOT the same person he was before, and that's why he's dangerous as hell

A chunk of GW1 characters died in combat because they were heroes who put themselves on the front lines against terrible forces that we knew WON back when the movement of the world released. We knew Joko won, we knew Purity won. We knew Ascalon fell entirely. It's not surprising that the characters who lived and worked there ended up dying, sometimes horribly, because they stood the line against a force that we long knew ended up winning. Ascalon not being resolved means what? The ghosts? The brand (has been resolved and cleaned up). 

I mean it's literally a well known fact that IBS was intended to be longer and then got cut short. That's not even speculation. 

I'd like to point out that the game doesn't treat Braham as a dear friend who can do no wrong, and infact has his failings called out and it takes what, an entire season + expansion *and even then not fully) worth of time for the two characters to even fully reconcile their relationship and become friends again? Braham literally splits from the commander and hates them for a good while over Heart of Thorns and Eir's death, and then the commander trying to take the fire magic imbued bow away (basically telling a Norn to ditch a chance to make his legend immortal, dumb move from that perspective).

Then we know Braham literally isn't speaking to the commander for the rest of Season 3, all of Path of Fire, and for a solid chunk of Season 4. The only reason they even interact is because Braham fell through a portal and ended up in the same room, and even then they barely interacted with anything but hostility. The two briefly bonded over being stuck in the mists, and Eir's ghost helped smooth some issues but they don't actually be friends again full until basically IBS.

And Braham gets drunk because Ryland literally was forcing him to constantly grab drinks to get black-out drunk during the festival and Braham was manipulated into it all.

Braham does a few terrible things and literally does hurt his relationship with the commander, and it's actually dealt with. The fact people cannot stand him and thus refuse to actually acknowledge any story beats that involve him is their problem, not the games. I'm sorry but a lot of people literally decided to hate him and think the only way he can ever be redeemed is by brutal death, and won't actually look at anything involving him seriously.

 

Regarding Balthazar: That was not my point. The way he behaved wich got him kicked from the six was not like the Balthazar established it GW1.

Regarding GW1 characters: Thats an explanation, but having an explanation doesn't mean it cannot be mean-spirited, or perceived as such. The overarching theme up to Soto did everything that came in after GW1 vanilla rather dirty and tried to put their own stamp on the franchise, by undermining existiting storybeats (or downright gutting them) and building up their own thing.

Regarding your comment towards IBS: I am not talking about IBS alone. Yes, IBS was the absolute low-point, but that doesn't mean other stuff wasn't executed terribly as well. Like Dragonvoid.

Regarding Braham: Some things got adressed, yes. But rather in a "that wasn't nice, but I am sure you will be doing better in the future"-way. No real repercussions, no real "wtf were you thinking, what you did was reckless, killed many people and put so much more in great danger! Eir would be effing disappointed!"-moment. It was adressed, but not adequatly, and yes, that IS the games fault - not the players, for happily eating up what they were served. Becaise I can shoot this arrow right back and say that people just deciding that Brahams actions got adressed and therefor, all is well are not looking at what he did and caused seriously.

Oh, and what I completely forgot to mention: Gyala delves, and the terrible take on mental health problems, together with Bobby Steins "Some people won't get it" response regarding criticism, wich still doesn't sit well with me and puts me in some dissonance, because besides that, I do like Bobby. Luckily, this topic was handled alot better in Soto with Zojja.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Imba.9451

[GeraldBC.4927]

19 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I get dislike change, but I don't see how GW2 is "violating the lore in petty and mean spirited ways" or showing any resentment to the first game, as somebody who has played all of GW1 and enjoyed it just as much as gw2. 

Change CAN be good if it is made with effort and healthy intentions. But not every change is intrinsically good and (most of) GW2's changes are more along the lines of bad fanfiction written by someone with a chip on their shoulder about every aspect of the source material. Everything from the source material is either downplayed, reframed as a bad thing or outright retconned into a bad thing.

The gods are a perfect example. They came to Tyria and gave rise to entire nations across multiple continents, created various ways to defend Tyria and prolong the planet's lifespan and they were so invested into the well-being of the people that they fought wars among each other over what would be the best decision for them. Even in their absence, their influence persists through the souls of their most devoted servants and things like the 'favor of the gods'. There is some bad here and there, but there is also a lot of good and the good clearly outweighs the bad.

Now try and find anything positive about the gods in GW2 that can't just be dismissed as religious humans playing favorites. You will fail. Every line of dialogue or ingame document found - even in SotO, only talks about how useless and destructive the gods were and how everything they do only makes things worse and basically screw the gods the gods were always bad. This even includes Kormir herself talking about the gods, when she has every reason to give credit where credit is due. They even brought Balthasar back and retconned him into being a sadistic cartoon villain, happy to kill random peasants for no reason all just to get the opportunity to murder one of the gods on-screen and feed his power into Aurene as a cherry on top.

I'll have to put this more abstractly to help you understand it.

So you have a story of any medium of your choice, and within it, there's a major character. It's a flawed character, they make a mistake here and there but overall they do a lot of good and they're clearly trying to do the right thing and become very popular as a result. Then you get a sequel to the story written by someone else and suddenly, everyone hates that character, everyone is talking smack about them, everyone across the board agrees that they are awful and that the world would be better off without them and there is no hint of irony or implied deception in those new takes. Not just that but even the character themselves agrees with this unanimous change of heart, has become self-loathing and is taking active measures to remove themselves from the picture. All at once, the moment the writing changed hands, everyone in the entire universe suddenly decided that they despise that character now. 

Could you seriously observe this drastic and one-sided shift without making inferences about the new author's likes and dislikes? I don't see why anyone should.

 

And this doesn't just apply to the gods, just off the top of my head the same treatment was given to

• Adelbern, Gwen and the Ascalonians in general
• The Vabbians including the princes, Elona in general
• The Dwarves
• Joko

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

 

Regarding Balthazar: That was not my point. The way he behaved wich got him kicked from the six was not like the Balthazar established it GW1.

Regarding GW1 characters: Thats an explanation, but having an explanation doesn't mean it cannot be mean-spirited, or perceived as such. The overarching theme up to Soto did everything that came in after GW1 vanilla rather dirty and tried to put their own stamp on the franchise, by undermining existiting storybeats (or downright gutting them) and building up their own thing.

Regarding your comment towards IBS: I am not talking about IBS alone. Yes, IBS was the absolute low-point, but that doesn't mean other stuff wasn't executed terribly as well. Like Dragonvoid.

Regarding Braham: Some things got adressed, yes. But rather in a "that wasn't nice, but I am sure you will be doing better in the future"-way. No real repercussions, no real "wtf were you thinking, what you did was reckless, killed many people and put so much more in great danger! Eir would be effing disappointed!"-moment. It was adressed, but not adequatly, and yes, that IS the games fault - not the players, for happily eating up what they were served. Becaise I can shoot this arrow right back and say that people just deciding that Brahams actions got adressed and therefor, all is well are not looking at what he did and caused seriously.

Oh, and what I completely forgot to mention: Gyala delves, and the terrible take on mental health problems, together with Bobby Steins "Some people won't get it" response regarding criticism, wich still doesn't sit well with me and puts me in some dissonance, because besides that, I do like Bobby. Luckily, this topic was handled alot better in Soto with Zojja.

Balthazar: Again, people change. Gods do as well. They have never, literally, said "This is how Balthazar always was" but "This is what Balthazar became."

GW1 characters: You are complaining about stuff that was set in stone before GW2 even released. Did you seriously thing them going "Purity won, Joko won, Ascalon fell" in movement of the world meant those heroes who lived in all those areas would sit aside and do nothing and retire happily? Seriously?

Dragonvoid was done decently for what it was meant to be. Could've been better, but it worked.

There is a very clear difference between the people who hate Braham, and the people who enjoy the story whether they like him or not. One group starts screaming and flipping tables when he appears, the other moves on.  Do you mean the s3 instance? because he makes up for that. Do you mean IBS? you mean the instances where he's explicitly out of action ever since and is described as going through therapy for? What terrible things are you speaking of? The actions in IBS that explicitly have left him out of action as a hero/adventurer?

55 minutes ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

Change CAN be good if it is made with effort and healthy intentions. But not every change is intrinsically good and (most of) GW2's changes are more along the lines of bad fanfiction written by someone with a chip on their shoulder about every aspect of the source material. Everything from the source material is either downplayed, reframed as a bad thing or outright retconned into a bad thing.

 

Glad the good old "I dislike GW2 and everything about it is terrible" people are still alive.

1 hour ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

The gods are a perfect example. They came to Tyria and gave rise to entire nations across multiple continents, created various ways to defend Tyria and prolong the planet's lifespan and they were so invested into the well-being of the people that they fought wars among each other over what would be the best decision for them. Even in their absence, their influence persists through the souls of their most devoted servants and things like the 'favor of the gods'. There is some bad here and there, but there is also a lot of good and the good clearly outweighs the bad.

Now try and find anything positive about the gods in GW2 that can't just be dismissed as religious humans playing favorites. You will fail. Every line of dialogue or ingame document found - even in SotO, only talks about how useless and destructive the gods were and how everything they do only makes things worse and basically screw the gods the gods were always bad. This even includes Kormir herself talking about the gods, when she has every reason to give credit where credit is due. They even brought Balthasar back and retconned him into being a sadistic cartoon villain, happy to kill random peasants for no reason all just to get the opportunity to murder one of the gods on-screen and feed his power into Aurene as a cherry on top.

I'd love to know when Kormir is so negative and nasty about the gods. Balthazar's history wasn't changed at all, so that is no retcon. Nothing negative is really said about Dwayna, Kormir, Melandru, Grenth, or even Lyssa. 

GW2 says Balthazar, Abaddon and Dhuum can have very negative traits, but outside Isgarrens own (and very explicitly biased viewpoints) it's not screaming how awful they are all.

2 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

And this doesn't just apply to the gods, just off the top of my head the same treatment was given to

• Adelbern, Gwen and the Ascalonians in general
• The Vabbians including the princes, Elona in general
• The Dwarves
• Joko

Adelbern, who was totally a mentally stable individual in GW1... only he explicitly wasn't and GW2 does not change him at all. Gwen... who wasn't changed at all? Ascalonians who are as stubborn as they are in GW1, and aren't drastically changed.

Vabbians, the group who experienced conquest and their culture being changed, but remained mostly intact. Elona, who encountered brutal conquest.

Dwarves who haven't been changed much at all.

Joko who is the same Joko as before, only ruler of Elona.

 

You are describing a lot of things that were established in "The Movement of the World" Which what do you know... was written by the GW1 writing team! You know, before GW2 even released! As if GW2 is building off the foundation literally set by the GW1 team from the very start!

Movement of the world which I'd note had: Joko taking over all of Elona, with Vabbi as his throne and Kourna being brutalized with the Sunspears hunted down.

Ascalon surviving in the lines of those exiled by Adelbern, as he grew even more crazy and eventually cast the foefire.

The dwarves who all turned to stone and disappeared underground, with very few remaining on the surface at the time.

[Imba.9451]

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Balthazar: Again, people change. Gods do as well. They have never, literally, said "This is how Balthazar always was" but "This is what Balthazar became."

GW1 characters: You are complaining about stuff that was set in stone before GW2 even released. Did you seriously thing them going "Purity won, Joko won, Ascalon fell" in movement of the world meant those heroes who lived in all those areas would sit aside and do nothing and retire happily? Seriously?

Dragonvoid was done decently for what it was meant to be. Could've been better, but it worked.

There is a very clear difference between the people who hate Braham, and the people who enjoy the story whether they like him or not. One group starts screaming and flipping tables when he appears, the other moves on.  Do you mean the s3 instance? because he makes up for that. Do you mean IBS? you mean the instances where he's explicitly out of action ever since and is described as going through therapy for? What terrible things are you speaking of? The actions in IBS that explicitly have left him out of action as a hero/adventurer?

 

Balthazar: He was part of a group of god who brought humans into Tyria, fostered and watched over them and then we are supposed to believe that he just doesn't give a crap about them anymore, only the destruction of dragons matters? If the only explanation for this given is "people change", then thats a rather bad one. How about we have Marjory and Kasmeer as antagonists in the next expansion, because "people change"?

GW1: You are building a strawman here. That was (again) not my point. My point was, that many things fans liked and loved about GW1 was tossed away. I am not against bad ending, but the way they tried to put their own stamp on the franchise by casting away the old did sting. I never was a Joko fan, but the way got Aurene Es Machina'd, right at the moment he started to become interesing was more than disappointing and a waste of a character.

Dragonvoid: Short setup, rushed execution, lackluster resolution. To say it worked within it's boundaries is like saying that next to a snail, a sloth is the fastest animal in the room.

Braham: Your attempts of putting a hater stamp on everyone who dislikes Braham is poisoning the well. How does he make up for Season 3? By saying sorry? Shall I insert the south park meme here? And in IBS, he led many people to their deaths. He lost his mothers bow, because he got drunk, wich resulted in the commander getting shot with that exact same bow. And Braham got kinda written into the backline, because Anet starts to realize, that he isn't very popular. But then again, they seem to try a new approach with SotO, wich I really like. Less Marvel-jokes, more actuals characters.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Imba.9451 said:

Balthazar: He was part of a group of god who brought humans into Tyria, fostered and watched over them and then we are supposed to believe that he just doesn't give a crap about them anymore, only the destruction of dragons matters? If the only explanation for this given is "people change", then thats a rather bad one. How about we have Marjory and Kasmeer as antagonists in the next expansion, because "people change"?

Speaking of a person who has been around for many hundreds, to possibly thousands of years. His history was never changed, and explicitly has not been changed. He wanted to fight the Elder Dragons instead of fleeing, and became enraged when the gods betrayed him by backstabbing him, stripping him of divinity, power, and titles, and leaving him chained to rot in the mists for eternity. 

 

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

GW1: You are building a strawman here. That was (again) not my point. My point was, that many things fans liked and loved about GW1 was tossed away. I am not against bad ending, but the way they tried to put their own stamp on the franchise by casting away the old did sting. I never was a Joko fan, but the way got Aurene Es Machina'd, right at the moment he started to become interesing was more than disappointing and a waste of a character.

 

Your point was GW2 threw out a lot of things about GW1. The problem is GW2 builds up off the established framework that GW1 left with the Movement of the world, which was made by the GW1 team. So complaining about how Ascalon fell or heroes died as if the GW2 devs came in cackling and going "How can we RUIN THIS CHARACTER HEHEHEHEEHEHEHE" is absolutely silly given how they were left a paper saying "The Kingdom of Ascalon fell besides a single fortress, Adelbern cast a spell that turned every human around the city he was in into ghosts, and any who stayed by his side died. Elona was lost as Joko changed tactics and forced them to surrender one by one or die of starvation and disease. Cantha had lost contact as they turned fully isolationist and all naval contact was shattered by zhaitan.

2 hours ago, Imba.9451 said:

Braham: Your attempts of putting a hater stamp on everyone who dislikes Braham is poisoning the well. How does he make up for Season 3? By saying sorry? Shall I insert the south park meme here? And in IBS, he led many people to their deaths. He lost his mothers bow, because he got drunk, wich resulted in the commander getting shot with that exact same bow. And Braham got kinda written into the backline, because Anet starts to realize, that he isn't very popular. But then again, they seem to try a new approach with SotO, wich I really like. Less Marvel-jokes, more actuals characters.

No, the hater stamp is for people who think the only way he could ever be redeemed is by dying horribly, or who start getting pissed off just by seeing him. The ones who continue to rant and rave about how awful he is when he hasn't been part of the active story since IBS at all.

Ah yes, the terrible actions of Season 3 which was... rejecting the commander. HOW ATROCIOUS. HOW VILE. HOW COULD HE EVER BE REDEEMED FOR TELLING THE COMMANDER OFF FOR ENTIRELY VALID REASONS.

IBS... only the fact he didn't lead people to their deaths. He didn't make the two guys betray everybody at Jora's Keep and kill them all. He never was in a leadership position.

He lost his bow due to what was an ally actively misleading and betraying his trust. People love to place all the blame here on Braham while conveneintly ignoring the fact Ryland (an ally at the time) was giving him a grand tour of the festival and constantly handing him drinks, likely spiked, but even if not, a LOT of drinks to the point even the Norn passed out hard. It wasn't Braham going off on his own and drinking himself under a table and losing the bow because he was an idiot, but he was actively being manipulated and coerced. Yes, it's a fault, but you completely ignore the hostile element of Ryland. Also IIRC, Ryland was using the "Strained relationship with our parents" as another manipulation tool again Braham.

After said bow was lost, he made every effort to try to reclaim it, until he learned he can fulfill his destiny without the weapon.

He was "sent to the backline" because he's recovering from severe mental, Emotional, and Physical traumas he dealt with. In Dragon Bash he was sullen and withdrawn. In Soto he's explicitly described as off in Therapy or the like.

Your "terrible things Braham did" all conveniently ignore the choices and actions of the other people involved. The two traitors who went Svanir, Ryland actively and purposefully manipulating him, etc.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Balthazar: Again, people change. Gods do as well. They have never, literally, said "This is how Balthazar always was" but "This is what Balthazar became."

A big part of the issue with Balthazar is not only that he acts the complete opposite of how he was depicted in GW1, to the point of acting just like Menzies (and to the point that many GW1 fans agree that PoF would have been better if they just used Menzies instead), but A) Nowhere does GW2 or ANet outside of GW2 say that Balthazar ever acted differently, giving the heavy handed impression that human belief about him was simply wrong, and B) the vision of Balthazar shown by Kormir of before Balthazar's fall from grace shows him acting the same way.

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Glad the good old "I dislike GW2 and everything about it is terrible" people are still alive.

Oh you can just go to r/guildwars to see them around in the hundreds. As amazing as it is that GW1 isn't completely dead yet, it's also amazing how much the hate for GW2 has persisted there.

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'd love to know when Kormir is so negative and nasty about the gods. Balthazar's history wasn't changed at all, so that is no retcon. Nothing negative is really said about Dwayna, Kormir, Melandru, Grenth, or even Lyssa. 

GW2 says Balthazar, Abaddon and Dhuum can have very negative traits, but outside Isgarrens own (and very explicitly biased viewpoints) it's not screaming how awful they are all.

In all fairness, the game is rather negative about the gods.
In Kormir's case, her "excuses" (as they're often falsely called) about the gods "fleeing" (again, as it's often falsely called) from the Elder Dragons is very much a negative statement. Though most people misunderstand "we realized that in fighting the Elder Dragons, either they kill us or we kill them, and even if we killed them, killing the Elder Dragons would lead to Tyria's destruction via magical imbalance, so we decided the non-aggression route" as "we were scared of dying so we fled". This little retcon (as per Jeff Grubb back in 2014, the reason the gods left was because they were prepping to leave for a long time but stuck around due to Abaddon, and with mortals handling Abaddon on their own they believed they can handle any other threat that comes their way so they left before the Elder Dragons even woke up) is very easily seen as casting the gods in a negative light.
Add on that both core GW2 and SotO diminishes the Six Gods' accomplishments by attributing many of the accomplishments they did specifically and solely to the Seers (Bloodstone, Scepter of Orr/Staff of the Mists) and other elder races. Add onto the fact that EoD retconned Hai Jii's story to make Grenth an evil kitten of a villain. Add on the fact that Balthazar wasn't their first choice to villainize for PoF, and the heavy hints that they're willing to villainize Lyssa too.
Add onto the fact that a dev or two have publicly stated to dislike the Six Gods for abandoning Tyria - these devs, btw, were the ones who wrote that into the game when they worked on Path of Fire.
Add onto that the severe lack of good things presented about the Six Gods in GW2.

So yeah... it's not very hard to interpret GW2 as being very anti-Six Gods, which in turn is easy to interpret as GW2 being very anti-GW1 lore.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Imba.9451]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Speaking of a person who has been around for many hundreds, to possibly thousands of years. His history was never changed, and explicitly has not been changed. He wanted to fight the Elder Dragons instead of fleeing, and became enraged when the gods betrayed him by backstabbing him, stripping him of divinity, power, and titles, and leaving him chained to rot in the mists for eternity. 

 

Your point was GW2 threw out a lot of things about GW1. The problem is GW2 builds up off the established framework that GW1 left with the Movement of the world, which was made by the GW1 team. So complaining about how Ascalon fell or heroes died as if the GW2 devs came in cackling and going "How can we RUIN THIS CHARACTER HEHEHEHEEHEHEHE" is absolutely silly given how they were left a paper saying "The Kingdom of Ascalon fell besides a single fortress, Adelbern cast a spell that turned every human around the city he was in into ghosts, and any who stayed by his side died. Elona was lost as Joko changed tactics and forced them to surrender one by one or die of starvation and disease. Cantha had lost contact as they turned fully isolationist and all naval contact was shattered by zhaitan.

No, the hater stamp is for people who think the only way he could ever be redeemed is by dying horribly, or who start getting pissed off just by seeing him. The ones who continue to rant and rave about how awful he is when he hasn't been part of the active story since IBS at all.

Ah yes, the terrible actions of Season 3 which was... rejecting the commander. HOW ATROCIOUS. HOW VILE. HOW COULD HE EVER BE REDEEMED FOR TELLING THE COMMANDER OFF FOR ENTIRELY VALID REASONS.

IBS... only the fact he didn't lead people to their deaths. He didn't make the two guys betray everybody at Jora's Keep and kill them all. He never was in a leadership position.

He lost his bow due to what was an ally actively misleading and betraying his trust. People love to place all the blame here on Braham while conveneintly ignoring the fact Ryland (an ally at the time) was giving him a grand tour of the festival and constantly handing him drinks, likely spiked, but even if not, a LOT of drinks to the point even the Norn passed out hard. It wasn't Braham going off on his own and drinking himself under a table and losing the bow because he was an idiot, but he was actively being manipulated and coerced. Yes, it's a fault, but you completely ignore the hostile element of Ryland. Also IIRC, Ryland was using the "Strained relationship with our parents" as another manipulation tool again Braham.

After said bow was lost, he made every effort to try to reclaim it, until he learned he can fulfill his destiny without the weapon.

He was "sent to the backline" because he's recovering from severe mental, Emotional, and Physical traumas he dealt with. In Dragon Bash he was sullen and withdrawn. In Soto he's explicitly described as off in Therapy or the like.

Your "terrible things Braham did" all conveniently ignore the choices and actions of the other people involved. The two traitors who went Svanir, Ryland actively and purposefully manipulating him, etc.

This is my last answer to you, unless you prove that you can answer me without putting words in my mouth to create strawmen, trying to belittle me or generally don't engage in a discussion that isn't in bad faith.

 

Balthazar: You clearly disregarded everything I said, and I am not in the mood of repeating myself for nothing.

GW1 Content: My point was, that everything GW1 related got gutted quite unsatisfactory, while everything new got pushed. It`s simple: open storybeatsh do not feel good. And again, stop putting words in my mouth.

Braham: You can put that hater stamp on haters. But don't engage into a discussion with the pre-conceived notion that everyone speaking badly of this character is a hater, this discrediting them. Thats intellectually dishonest. Also, you argument is weird: Is it not allowed to talk about character, if they are not part of the story anymore? Also, he lost the bow because he got drunk. Despite the commander telling him to be carefl and stop drinking. All in all, he is not a likeable character. Therapy or not. Because having problems is not an excuse to be a jerk.