Secrets of the Obscure Balance Follow-Ups

[SeTect.5918]

32 minutes ago, Creativity.3816 said:

how about instead of nerfing player damage, make the pve enemies deal more damage so gearing isnt just all celestial or full glass. the only reason people are talking about "45k benchmark dps" or whatever is because the pve is too easy so the endgame is hitting a golem

Huh? That would make some e specs even more op compared to others. 

There is a huuuge disbalance between classes/e specs in terms of sustain atm.

With mobs dealing more dmg ele (or harbinger or something like that) would probably be perma downed while scourge can simply continue to dps. 

If they would increase damage of mobs they would have to balance sustain between each e spec, what they should do anyway but will probably never happen because its years that some e specs have far more defense than other e specs while still dealing the same damage...or even more as we see with scourge. 

[anbujackson.9564]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

My post got deleted so i guess i have to repeat it.

Another 2 weeks of scourge? It was already busted before soto launch and is not funny anymore. Hotfix for akeem relic and scourge/specter was not possible?

Again a couple months into scourge fiesta in instanced content. Who cares just press 1. 

Only half of my squads in the past few days were scourges. There is still room for some more. And to be fair, you now have to weapon swap in your priority list!!

Anyway.. Like others mentioned, please give us some information what your goal for dps is. Im duoing t4 and CM fractals (besides sunqua) with a friend and we ask ourself how this is supposed to be fun anymore with 5 people. And we are already melting enemies and bosses with no quickness and alacrity.

Edited September 12, 2023 by anbujackson.9564

[itspomf.9523]

Imagine recognizing that multiple builds are (severely) over-performing, then not even addressing the entire problem.

[Echostorm.9143]

7 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Imagine recognizing that multiple builds are (severely) over-performing, then not even addressing the entire problem.

They are only over performing on the golem, only a handful of people can get anywhere close to 49k in raids and strikes and most of them are using macros to do it  A severe nerf will only hurt regular players.

[Echostorm.9143]

15 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

please just bring all damage back by 33% across the board in pve, as we're all tired of bosses dying when you look at them. we've gone from powercreep slowly increasing over time to just exploding in less than a few years, and earlier when doing shattered observatory challenge mode the first boss kept phasing in something like 10-15 seconds. this is supposed to be some of the hardest content in the game, and remain relevant!

 

please understand that making all content into health sponges like silent surf and the dagda strike isn't a solution! you need to treat pve balance as if it were a competitive mode; you wouldn't just keep increasing players' health to counter powercreep in pvp, now would you?

We don't want to go back to only macro using tryhards being able to do 10k at best either.  There is a ton of content out there and nobody wants to spend 5 min killing veteran mobs.  Powercreep lets us get through a good amount of content in the limited amount of time most people can play.  It has always brought raids into the realm of possibility for more people than ever.  Severe nerfs might please tryhards but they will harm and discourage the vast majority of the population of the game and frankly they are the people paying the bills.  We can't base it off a 30 step tight rapid weapon switching rotation on the golem either, in the real game people are lucky to get half of what Snowcrows benches.

[anbujackson.9564]

8 minutes ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

They are only over performing on the golem, only a handful of people can get anywhere close to 49k in raids and strikes and most of them are using macros to do it  A severe nerf will only hurt regular players.

You know I am getting REALLY tired of this.

Do you honestly believe for a single second that those casual, regular players would even notice the nerfs? All the time I read: OMG dont nerf, people still only do 10k dps!

Well guess what, after the nerfs they do maybe 9 or stay at 10 because they got practice with the build in the meantime.

Stop putting other people upfront as an excuse for unreasonable dps and support just so you can facewalk any meaningful content. Anyone can join open world metas and watch stuff die in seconds. You dont need golem benchmarks to see the inbalance. 

Also: If you honestly think powercreep is ok so people with less time can rush the game, then I have nothing else to say... maybe dont play a MMO expecting everything to be handed to you if you dont have the time to invest in it.

Edited September 12, 2023 by anbujackson.9564

[Echostorm.9143]

Just now, anbujackson.9564 said:

You know I am getting REALLY tired of this.

Do you honestly believe for a single second that those casual, regular would even notice the nerfs? All the time I read: OMG dont nerf, people still only do 10k dps!

Well guess what, after the nerfs they do maybe 9 or stay at 10 because they got practice with the build in the meantime.

Stop putting other people upfront as an excuse for unreasonable dps and support just so you can facewalk any meaningful content. Anyone can join open world metas and watch stuff die in seconds. You dont need golem benchmarks to see the inbalance. 

I'm tired too, tired of tryhards insisting that everyone play the game exactly the way that they do.  You are not the fun police.  The nerfs will and have knocked casuals down to mid single digits and it doesn't make the game fun for them.  It takes ages to kill anything and it will reverse all the progress we've been seeing to get more people into Raids, strikes and t4 fracals. 

[anbujackson.9564]

1 minute ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

I'm tired too, tired of tryhards insisting that everyone play the game exactly the way that they do.  You are not the fun police.  The nerfs will and have knocked casuals down to mid single digits and it doesn't make the game fun for them.  It takes ages to kill anything and it will reverse all the progress we've been seeing to get more people into Raids, strikes and t4 fracals. 

Maybe try to think how people used to play the game years ago. 

They surely must have had an awful time, especially at HoT release right? No op dps, no boons everywhere. Unnerfed content. I wonder how the people survived that and started to build the community for endgame content we have today.

[Echostorm.9143]

22 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Maybe try to think how people used to play the game years ago. 

They surely must have had an awful time, especially at HoT release right? No op dps, no boons everywhere. Unnerfed content. I wonder how the people survived that and started to build the community for endgame content we have today.

Yeah people got through it but that doesn't mean it was a great experience.  Should we never change anything because the past didn't kill us?  I'm not trying to be unreasonable here but there are a lot of people clutching their pearls and looking for fainting sofas and pointing at like 2 people doing high damage on a golem.  Yeah, OW metas and raids and fractals are easier now but it doesn't seem like it is driving people away.  They just finish faster, maybe it is a bit too fast but being able to get more done in the game during the limited time a lot of us have is pretty welcome.  Between work and kids and other obligations a lot of gamers feel like things are better now than they were after HoT.  I like finishing 1-4 in 2 hours because if it took 3 or 4 it wouldn't be possible to do on a weeknight at all.  I also like how many more people are around for pugs and how we don't have to vet them for LI because we can carry someone if their damage is a little low because they're not great at mechanics yet.  Again, I'm not saying we all have to be able to do 50k just with auto attacks but I don't think doing around 30k is unreasonable and I don't think it should require a 30 step weapon switching rotation to get that 30k, for 40k+ sure, but every class should have an LI that does good damage with some wiggle room to min/max and tight rotate your way to like 5-10k more if you're hardcore.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Echostorm.9143

[SeTect.5918]

39 minutes ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

every class should have an LI that does good damage with some wiggle room to min/max and tight rotate your way to like 5-10k more if you're hardcore.

Isnt that basically Pressing auto attack vs actually doing skills? 

There are lots of e specs that can do 20-30k dps with (almost) only Pressing auto attacks. I think almost every class has something like that, if not every class.

Tho 5-10k for only pressing auto attack vs playing piano on condi engi or ele is a kinda low difference, should be more like 12-18k difference. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[tanpopo.9102]

On 9/11/2023 at 3:24 PM, Cal Cohen.2358 said:

some overperforming builds in PvE

every build is overperforming in PvE

I get it, balance is difficult -- no sarcasm intended. Given that I doubt we'll ever go back to 20-30k dps being the norm, any chance we can just get a band-aid fix instead, and have old content BOSSES' health boosted? It's honestly pretty sad seeing Mordy-Mouth or Octovine dropping in one phase. I feel sorry for any new players trying to do the Shatterer achievements, considering it usually melts before any of those mechanics even show up. And in a way, isn't it a bit insulting to everyone who helped develop the game before, to have their work just trivialized like this?

And then there's the Gyala meta end boss, which is a painful slog even with a full squad.

Then again, I don't know -- maybe the new target model for the game is for Legendary Divas who just want to show up, randomly attack stuff, and get "rewarded". I honestly don't have anything against casual content and I hardly touch any "hardcore" content myself, but making a game too easy is just as bad as making it too difficult.

[Matoro.9708]

18 hours ago, GoldSilva.8950 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 Ty for the update, as well as the date for the larger balance patch!

Obligatory: Please bring Turret gameplay back in some way because it was fun and there were cool builds with it. 🙏🙏🙏

>> This was literally the most fun I've had with the game ever & I don't understand why it was just evaporated.

I would funnel all my gem purchases straight to hire more balance team members / give you a larger development budget if I could. ❤️

14 hours ago, shib.1369 said:

Buff turret engineer please. Hardest build in the game. Can only bench 3k with self-boons/condis rn.

 

[HotDelirium.7984]

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The people will still say that he end effect of introduced changes should have been obvious right away, without having to wait and see how they perform in the game. And they'd be right about that. The only difference will be that Anet will get information about what to fix several weeks later.

Now, of course, there is indeed no point in posting balance previews if Anet never intended to listen to the feedback in the first place. And from our side it's actlually better too - this way at least we can see things as they really are instead of mistakenly believing the seeming changes in communication meant anything.

"Feedback" on a live service game is a moving target on all fronts. (summon perspective)

They probly have limited game testers and the main test is live so WE become the game testers but that means all the bugs mainly manifest at this moment. (summon patience)

Some internal game logic for some feedback is irrelevant. (summon game design theory)

They have to SAY they listen to feedback or that's a PR disaster. (summon best business practices)

[Knamliss.9148]

On 9/11/2023 at 7:15 PM, Apfelkuchen.7143 said:

Is this going to be a more comprehensive adjustment, or just the obvious scourge/spectre culprits?

Specter is fine, it requires allies for dps, and can only have one per sub. Akeem is the real issue. Scourge I agree is reaching a bit too high

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

24 minutes ago, Knamliss.9148 said:

Specter is fine, it requires allies for dps, and can only have one per sub. Akeem is the real issue. Scourge I agree is reaching a bit too high

i think a near-60k benchmark is more than "a bit too high". that's double the damage anything in the game was meant for.

 

@ thread:

as for players saying it only happens on the golem--there are actual bosses with similar environments (like old tom in fractals), where you still hit benchmark damage, and even in encounters where there's movement and mechanics, you're still likely to hit something like 75% of the benchmark, which is still way too high. not to mention all the static encounters like world bosses, which is the majority of them in this game.

 

in fractal challenge mote runs with high ufe (a killproof), its not uncommon for every player to be at around 40k dps, or 45-50k depending on how well you utilise exposed windows after crowd controlling the bosses. even on ai, who moves quite frequently.

 

two boon dps players (one quick and one alac), currently have the equivalent power of an entire five-player party in 2014, and that's assuming that party was formed entirely of experienced players who knew what they were doing.

Edited September 13, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Knamliss.9148]

1 hour ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think a near-60k benchmark is more than "a bit too high". that's double the damage anything in the game was meant for.

49k isn't that close to 60, but I get what you're saying. Regardless, if we're going off what the "game was meant for" then that went out the window years ago when mirror comps stopped being a thing that was required. Takes 92k dps to no-updraft gorseval and skip the entire main mechanic of the encounter, for reference, and my team was able to do that like week 2 back in november  2015 of SV raid launch.

[Preppy.7046]

  

1 hour ago, Vandal.5621 said:

Is this also where you admit that the changes to Scrapper Quickness were a mistake that killed the spec, and revert them?

If virts can steal our ability to combo, I wouldn't mind having both gyros and combos as options to generate quickness.  Only being able to generate quickness via combos feels limiting and in certain fights problematic.  It's interesting not being stuck in gyro jail, but combo jail is kinda less fun since you're often using the dangerous hammer 3 and the important-for-other-things function gyro. 😞

[Zok.4956]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

This just doesn't make sense. It's literally not possible for Anet to implement a balanced class scheme by listening more to the disparate opinions of random players. The funny think is that never have I seen Anet ASK for feedback on patch notes. What ACTAULLY happens is that they provide the patch notes and we CAN provide feedback. That's not the same thing as Anet ASKING for it. 

"Welcome to the preview for the June 27 balance update! As always, the goal of previewing these changes is to gather your feedback before the live release. We'll be following the conversation and making further adjustments as needed."

They were clearly asking for feedback, because getting feedback was the goal of the preview.

 

 

[Daoyun.3157]

15 hours ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

PLEASE don't balance PVE based on golem benching.   Please don't balance PVE based on PVP.

Nothing is "Busted" in the real game.  Golem != real

Classes should be nerfed by benchtests AND skill level. If someone can do 40k dps with zero effort, and they’re just spamming buttons, then that deserves a nerf. Getting high dps should feel rewarding because of all the effort you put in to practicing your rotation. Imagine if someone worked on a class for months to reach 40k dps then suddenly it gets broken and now everyone can do it. It doesn’t sound fun or unique. Now I do agree with you that balances shouldn’t be based solely on golem benchmarking. Some fights are situational that the golem testing can’t do.

[Vandal.5621]

4 hours ago, Preppy.7046 said:

  

If virts can steal our ability to combo, I wouldn't mind having both gyros and combos as options to generate quickness.  Only being able to generate quickness via combos feels limiting and in certain fights problematic.  It's interesting not being stuck in gyro jail, but combo jail is kinda less fun since you're often using the dangerous hammer 3 and the important-for-other-things function gyro. 😞

100%. We went from "do your normal rotation to get quickness, but you don't always have Blast Gyro available for CC" to "do a worse rotation and also you have to run the clunky Throw Mine and also won't have Function Gyro available to rez people."

The first one isn't great, but I'll take it any day of the week over the second.

[SolarizedRed.9254]

Hey Skills & Balance team -

As an aside from the ongoing & endless Benchmark/Nerf discussion, I really hope you continue your work to revitalize core Profession skills, traits, and weapons. Is that something that is still planned?

Things like Thief's Sword and the Acrobatics trait line still struggle to find use in PvE, and I don't really subscribe to the "It's a PvP Weapon/Trait/Skill" notion that some in the community have put forward, especially when game mode functionality splits are an option. Elementalist's Conjures have a similar issue, and there are also some low-hanging QoL improvements that can still be addressed (I'm looking at you, Glyph of Elementals).

Edited September 13, 2023 by SolarizedRed.9254

[Echostorm.9143]

8 hours ago, Daoyun.3157 said:

Classes should be nerfed by benchtests AND skill level. If someone can do 40k dps with zero effort, and they’re just spamming buttons, then that deserves a nerf. Getting high dps should feel rewarding because of all the effort you put in to practicing your rotation. Imagine if someone worked on a class for months to reach 40k dps then suddenly it gets broken and now everyone can do it. It doesn’t sound fun or unique. Now I do agree with you that balances shouldn’t be based solely on golem benchmarking. Some fights are situational that the golem testing can’t do.

This is where I'd like for casuals and tryhards to meet in the middle.  I suspect that the vast majority of players don't want to work for months to reach the pinnacle of damage for a class, (partly because it'll get nerfed just when you get good at it) while I agree effort should be rewarded I don't think the difference between the two should be very large and that even someone rolling their face over the keyboard should be able to do enough damage to enjoy all non CM PVE game modes including raids from a damage perspective, a little over 30k sounds right to me.  Maybe someone following a crazy rotation and mix maxing could get around 40k? 

That said I do wish the combat in this game focused more on reacting to the fight than just hitting the buttons in a certain order no matter what is happening.  I think combat in DAoC, fighting, healing and buffing was much more engaging and fun, GW2 feels more like piano playing where I'm counting off beats in my head than really engaging with enemies and environment.

[xellink.7568]

 

6 hours ago, Echostorm.9143 said:

This is where I'd like for casuals and tryhards to meet in the middle.  I suspect that the vast majority of players don't want to work for months to reach the pinnacle of damage for a class, (partly because it'll get nerfed just when you get good at it) while I agree effort should be rewarded I don't think the difference between the two should be very large and that even someone rolling their face over the keyboard should be able to do enough damage to enjoy all non CM PVE game modes including raids from a damage perspective, a little over 30k sounds right to me.  Maybe someone following a crazy rotation and mix maxing could get around 40k? 

That said I do wish the combat in this game focused more on reacting to the fight than just hitting the buttons in a certain order no matter what is happening.  I think combat in DAoC, fighting, healing and buffing was much more engaging and fun, GW2 feels more like piano playing where I'm counting off beats in my head than really engaging with enemies and environment.

Autos at 20, LI at 30 and optimised at 40k. Optimised doesn't mean high intensity as not all classes are designed to be high intensity.

 

That was the state of the game pre-SotO and it was good. I don't see why anet would want to change that formula

[Nephalem.8921]

23 hours ago, Vandal.5621 said:

100%. We went from "do your normal rotation to get quickness, but you don't always have Blast Gyro available for CC" to "do a worse rotation and also you have to run the clunky Throw Mine and also won't have Function Gyro available to rez people."

The first one isn't great, but I'll take it any day of the week over the second.

?

Old scrapper also used function for quick. Mine is almost instant cast, why is it clunky? Now you do normal rotation for quick + hammer3. Blast gyro was never part of your normal dps rotation.

Hammer 3 is not dangerous. you can cancel it at any time and it does not leap through targets.

[VictorLeal.4102]

Please don't nerf the scourge, this spec is a source of pride for people who need accessibility in the game, I, who don't have both arms, can now be the top dps in the group, thank you ArenaNet 😀