Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Giotto.2607]

I personal think they should make w1-w3 easier, and make w4 w5 w6 ect harder. Or, make them With Tiers, just like FOTMs. Raid seems like a replacement of dungeons but now people just refuse to play.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:No, it's not irrelevant only to me. Other players have more or less the same cognitive abilities. The novelty of the content wears out very quickly for everyone. Let's say it's not one time, let it be ten times. It is still irrelevant in the long run. These pieces of content are designed to be played many more times that that. You're only looking at yourself, imagining the one perfect gameplay experience you would get from playing this. Look at the bigger picture. Imagine playing your easy mode raid for 250th time over. Would the theme really matter? The behaviors? The characters or the scenery? At this point it is all routine. You go there, you do this, then that. You know it by heart, you've done it time and again, you can do it with your eyes closed, figuratively speaking. Do you really think the theme matters at this point? You might actually believe so, but you're wrong. It doesn't.

This folks is why "Challenging" content is a myth, at some point it will become routine, lose all it's challenge and be nothing but a mindless easy grind.

This is why any request for Challenging PvE content is just a veil by elitist and meta junkies to put in a means to stop players they feel are inferior to them from getting their precious prestige and best loots.

Quite petty really when you see it for what it is, and what I have always called it out to be.

The meta elitists did just as well excluding players they felt inferior before raids, in less challenging content. They do it in every single game, by the way. So again you're jumping to conclusions having absolutely zero reason for them.

And... Wrong Again.

They could not exclude people from the content itself

Kek. TIL I can exclude players from the content itself. Where's the button in the UI that lets me specify how much dps you must clock on the golem before you can make a raid squad? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[yann.1946]

@yann.1946 said:Wouldn't those people rather look at mmo's containing dungeons for example? I don't think these people would search for mmo's with raids to begin with.Ah, but many of them

did

search for MMO without raids. That was

GW2

.

So would those people have joined the game if easy mode raids where available?

I understand you dislike the addition of raids in this game but we have to work forward with what we have. Deleting them would do more harm then good.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

But should we adjust for people taking self-destructive choices? shouldn't we have higher expectations of people? We shouldn't necessarily change the external forces to accommodate somebody taking self-destructive choices.

I would say the same thing about raiding in general, I personally can't for a second understand why anyone would want to failfailfailfailfail a raid encounter until eventually they succeed, but whether I can understand that or not, I at least accept that it happens. People are weird.

But the people doing this failing are enjoying this. Which is quite the difference really. I'm talking why should people do things they don't enjoy.

I have a problem with the argument that we should cater to the people choosing a route to go for something and then complain about it and the argument that everything should be possible to get in their preferred game mode.

But again, if someone has a goal, a goal that they very much want, and the ONLY path toward that goal is one that they cannot possibly enjoy, then what future would

you

prescribe for such a person? Should he pursue that goal along a path that he does not enjoy? Should he abandon that goal entirely just because the path to reach it would be unpleasant? Would either of those solutions be the best solution for every person, or would different people value the goal and the path differently, and thus benefit from a different balance between the two?

I believe that if an actual solution to the dilemma is practical, if you can allow an outcome that involves

both

reaching the goal

and

enjoying the path, then it's worth pursuing that result, rather than abandoning all hope.

If the path actually erodes their enjoyment they should not pursue it period. What's the point having something if you would stop playing the game persueing it?

i'm not questioning this person would gain something from another path, but this doesn't mean giving that path is a good idea in general because one has to look at the population in general. This is where the fear of population imbalances and general design direction come in.

@STIHL.2489 Which doesn't necessarily mean keeping the loot away from people their are a lot more reasons explained in this tread explaining why.

[Blocki.4931]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.

You're right in that it IS their job to entertain you. You're missing the point however. I clearly said multiple times that not all content has to appeal to everybody and why that is perfectly fine. If something has a requirement you're not willing to commit to, your choice. Don't beg for them to remove that requirement for no reason other than you not wanting to put in any work. You can get things done with 30 minutes a day if said things are set up properly. Niche content that doesn't aim at the target audience is a massive failure, nothing else.

Casuals can stay in their own lane and not demand everything to be casual friendly, despite 95% of the content being aimed at them. Let that last 5% aim for its own specific audience. Easy.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them.

There's your problem. You're not the only one paying. It's their job to entertain all of their customers, not just you personally. And because these customers all have their own preferences, it is not possible to make every single feature in the game be entertaining, or appeal, to everyone equally. Hence the need for different content catering to the desires for particular groups of players. Of course not all of it will match your own preferences. It was never the intent, and it never will be. Because your wishes aren't any more special than those of any other customer.

[Grogba.6204]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.

Newsflash, I paid them too and I enjoy the current raids and would like more wings to be released in the future. What is this now, a dick measuring contest? Vote with your wallet?

Nobody forces you to play raids and if you only play for escapism sake then why would you even require legendary armor because let us be honest here, all youwant from raids is quick gratification and shinies, lot's of shinies, and the second you acquire said shinies you would just leave that part of the content behind you since it doesn't offer you anything beyond that. Why should you care about the enjoyment of others.

I can't obtain Warbringer without playing WvW nor can I obtain the Ascencion without playing PvP. Same goes for Ad Infinitum which requires one to play fractals and every single one of them is at the very least two months of work (less so nowadays for Ad Infinitum). Time to add an "redeem legendary backpack" vendor to all three modes?

[Assic.2746]

That's the thing @Grogba.6204. This thread is not about how to make raids more accessible for players. People here keep cultivating the idea that raid difficulty is the problem where in fact getting into the raid group is the problem.

From what I see no one here actually cares about how to improve the raid LFG which locks players out of raids even though they spent a lot of time in game, they have the experience, they have the gear, they know their profession etc.

Do you really believe that Raid Infantile Mode is a solution?I don't. And as a proof of that we have Super Adventure Box Infantile Mode.

Do people use it to learn normal mode?No. People play Infantile mode to get their daily rewards. It is not entertaining. I get that people watch players having fun while raiding, failing, laughing about it and trying again. And they believe that if ANet added an Infantile cloud over the boss, leading stright to the reward chest they would have the same amount of fun...

If you are going to quote anything from this posts then quote entirety of it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@yann.1946 said:I understand you dislike the addition of raids in this game but we have to work forward with what we have. Deleting them would do more harm then good.Adding easy mode would hardly be considered deleting raids from this game.

@yann.1946 said:But the people doing this failing are enjoying this.Some people, maybe. Most really don't. Just look at how toxic most groups get as soon as they wipe a few times. It's exactly because they don't like wiping over and over again.

@yann.1946 said:If the path actually erodes their enjoyment they should not pursue it period. What's the point having something if you would stop playing the game persueing it?Agreed. Which is exactly why Anet should offer alternatives at least for the most controversial paths.

@Grogba.6204 said:if you only play for escapism sake then why would you even require legendary armorWhy would raiders require it?

@Grogba.6204 said:I can't obtain Warbringer without playing WvW nor can I obtain the Ascencion without playing PvP. Same goes for Ad Infinitum which requires one to play fractals and every single one of them is at the very least two months of work (less so nowadays for Ad Infinitum). Time to add an "redeem legendary backpack" vendor to all three modes?At least there are three different legendary backpacks, each with unique skin, and Anet is likely to make even more in the future at some point. That saying, no, i wouldn't be adverse to offering more than one path for each of those. Or for seeing a core PvE backpack added.

By the way, you must have not been paying too much attention to the arguments if you think that it's the time invested that is the problem. Nobody asks for legendaries to be handed out, or available within days. No matter how strongly Raiders would like to claim otherwise.

[yann.1946]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@yann.1946 said:I understand you dislike the addition of raids in this game but we have to work forward with what we have. Deleting them would do more harm then good.Adding easy mode would hardly be considered deleting raids from this game.

Well not really talking about easy mode but more the sentiment "But raiders got their way this way" that get's thrown around sometimes.

@yann.1946 said:But the people doing this failing are enjoying this.Some people, maybe. Most really

don't

. Just look at how toxic most groups get as soon as they wipe a few times. It's exactly because they

don't

like wiping over and over again.

Let's rephrase people like the wiping in progression and the fact that this possibility exists

@yann.1946 said:If the path actually erodes their enjoyment they should not pursue it period. What's the point having something if you would stop playing the game persueing it?Agreed. Which is exactly why Anet should offer alternatives at least for the most controversial paths.

Why should a reward be open for everyone? Personally i have no problem with the ascension be PvP only etc.Shouldn't a game developer encourage people to master as much of their game as possible?

[Feanor.2358]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:At least there are three different legendary backpacks, each with unique skin, and Anet is likely to make even more in the future at some point. That saying, no, i wouldn't be adverse to offering more than one path for each of those. Or for seeing a core PvE backpack added.

By the way, you must have not been paying too much attention to the arguments if you think that it's the time invested that is the problem. Nobody asks for legendaries to be handed out, or available within days. No matter how strongly Raiders would like to claim otherwise.

With the exception of dungeon skins - which belong to abandoned piece of content - all the "high-end" skins you can earn through gameplay require specific content. There are the backpacks, there are the weapons, there's the Luminescent armor, the chak and auric collections, the stellar and astral ones, the fractal ones, Aurora and so forth, and so forth. You can see the same approach used again and again, everywhere. It is used, because it works. That's the better way. Because playing a piece of content isn't dictated by a binary "like/dislike". There are nuances to that. You like certain things more than others. And it can even depend on your current mood. And there are other factors, too, rewards being part of it.

Splitting the rewards in such a way encourages players to enjoy different content. It avoids reducing the game to a single farm. And by doing so, enables players to enjoy it for much, MUCH longer. Enabling all the rewards everywhere would only serve to make players burn out faster. That's why it isn't done. It doesn't matter if you make them require tons of time. If anything, it would only speed up the process, because the mere though of having to grind for months and years the same content you're already bored of will be off-putting.

You might say "well, if you're bored then switch". But it's not so simple, because you'll often fall in the trap of the routine. You'll keep doing it long after the content in question long after you've lost the original excitement you had about it, because it got worn off gradually, in small steps. So small that you never realized it. Literally, there are no upsides to what you are suggesting. Oh, it seems like there are. But it's just a pipe dream.

[Grogba.6204]

@Astralporing.1957 said:By the way, you must have not been paying too much attention to the arguments if you think that it's the time invested that is the problem. Nobody asks for legendaries to be handed out, or available within days. No matter how strongly Raiders would like to claim otherwise.

No, I have not. The time gate for the Legendary armor is months of farming WvW or multiple seasons of PvP or slaying 150/300 raidbosses. The last armor also requires two collections which you can complete before you are anywhere close to getting the 150 LI for the gifts to upgrade the precursor. At the very minimum you would have to clear every single currently available raidboss for nine weeks to acquire the necessary LI for the first set.

If we assume a player only wants to clear the easier bosses he still has to do Deimos, Sabetha, Slothasor, Matthias, Keep Construct and Xera at least once for the required achievements. This still leaves him with Cairn, Mursaat Overseer, Samarog, Bandit Trio and the Glenna Escort for lowest effort and Vale Guardian, Gorseval, Desmina Escort and Three Kings for a bit more effort.

Summary? Six of the harder bosses required, bringing you down to 144 LI.So either 144/5 = 28,8 ~ 29 weeksOr 144/7 = 20,57 ~ 21 weeksfor one full set of armor, around half a year worth of doing raids at which point you will know the fights and have an idea how they should be handled.Not fast enough? You have the option to put in more effort and learn the other bosses to increase LI gain.

What even is the arguement here? That not every content is equally suited for everyone so we should totally bring it down to the lowest common denominator so it becomes awful for everyone?

Edit:

@Assic.2746 said:

From what I see no one here actually cares about how to improve the raid LFG which locks come players out of raids even though they spent a lot of time in game, they have the experience, they have the gear, they know their profession etc.

This is a core problem of GW2. Effort required vs possibilities offered. You can play the whole game pressing three buttons and reach lvl 80. Do I have to remind you about the few times A-Net increased the difficulty of open world/story encounters and the huge backlash they received because the prior described strategy did not work for once?

Now add content that actually requires knowledge of the game mechanics (dodging, dealing dmg, avoiding dmg, trait building, gearing, movement, boss mechanics, break bars, mob behaviour, etc) and the vast majority of players hits a brickwall and refuses to move past their way to play GW2. This is one of the reasons threads like this one exist but it is also the reason why many raidleaders refuse to accept total randoms because you have absolutely no way to prove beforehand if this one player can carry his or her weight. This is where KP's (faked or real) come in.

We cannot inspect other players for their gear, this would be too toxicWe have no official way to monitor performance outside of one grayish third party tool, would be too toxicWe have no way to demonstrate our experience with the content outside of minis and a handful of titles, too toxic?

You can try this yourself: Hit the lfg, search for any boss and say all welcome and see how it goes. You might succeed but you might also fail horribly and because many players don't have much time either they rather not wipe for hours if they are looking for a clear.

This does not mean, however, that squadleaders aren't a problem too: From my pugging experience I can say without doubt that pug-leaders have for the most part no leadership skills, little or no actual clue about the ups and downs of specific classes, are inexperienced themselves and just look for an easy carry by searching for absurd LI requirements.

[belognom.3685]

@Grogba.6204 said:

What even is the arguement here? That not every content is equally suited for everyone so we should totally bring it down to the lowest common denominator so it becomes awful for everyone?

I don't get why every other topic gets to legendary armor. What makes you believe people wanna learn raids for legendary armor?

I personally would go to training raids event if it drops blue gear and have no achievements etc.

None was talking of high reward for low efforts. I'm gamer old school one, I believe in the rule high difficulty= high reward.But to get to finish The Witcher 2 Dark_Mode, I played. Normal and Hard mods

P.S While was typing this i realize nothing will change anyway. I better look for some other game to spend my free time there to have fun. Done most of the things here.

[Grogba.6204]

@belognom.3685 said:I don't get why every other topic gets to legendary armor. What makes you believe people wanna learn raids for legendary armor?

Because outside of the challenge the encounter pose and playing challenging PvE Content with up to 10 players the legendary armor is the only other thing raids offer.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Grogba.6204 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:By the way, you must have not been paying too much attention to the arguments if you think that it's the

time

invested that is the problem. Nobody asks for legendaries to be handed out, or available within days. No matter how strongly Raiders would like to claim otherwise.

No, I have not. The time gate for the Legendary armor is months of farming WvW or multiple seasons of PvP or slaying 150/300 raidbosses.And? If you read carefully, you'd see that noone actually says anything about possible alternate paths taking any shorter. In case of potential "easy mode" path, i'd definitely need to take longer than that. Nobody contents that. The only claim to that point come from raiders in the way of strawman arguments.

Thus, you telling me what exactly i need to do to get the set (which i have already know, seeing as i have already done that work) is pointless. You're not arguing against anything i have said so far.

@Grogba.6204 said:What even is the arguement here? That not every content is equally suited for everyone so we should totally bring it down to the lowest common denominator so it becomes awful for everyone?No. The argument is that not every content is suited for everyone, so players should have choices available - at the very least choices should be offered in case of the most controversial content paths.Again, it's not about bringing raids down to the open world level. It's about a new, alternate mode. The current one would remain unchanged.

@yann.1946 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@yann.1946 said:I understand you dislike the addition of raids in this game but we have to work forward with what we have. Deleting them would do more harm then good.Adding easy mode would hardly be considered deleting raids from this game.

Well not really talking about easy mode but more the sentiment "But raiders got their way this way" that get's thrown around sometimes.Again, i don't see where the "deleting" part comes from. And as for sentiments go, since raiders

did

manage to get what they wanted added to the game, i don't see why my using arguments that at the core are not so different to accomplish a similar goal should suddenly cause them to be so set against it.

@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:But the people doing this failing are enjoying this.Some people, maybe. Most really

don't

. Just look at how toxic most groups get as soon as they wipe a few times. It's exactly because they

don't

like wiping over and over again.

Let's rephrase people like the wiping in progression and the fact that this possibility existsAgain, most of the raiders

don't

really like that, and they do everything they can to minimize that possibility as much as possible. I mean, they may say they do like the possibility, but in truth it's only until it gets realized.The amount of those that really like the challenge, and the thrill of not being sure if they succeed or not, until the very last moment? It's very small. Way too small to sustain the mode.

@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:If the path actually erodes their enjoyment they should not pursue it period. What's the point having something if you would stop playing the game persueing it?Agreed. Which is exactly why Anet should offer alternatives at least for the most controversial paths.

Why should a reward be open for everyone? Personally i have no problem with the ascension be PvP only etc.Shouldn't a game developer encourage people to master as much of their game as possible?You have already answered that question: because there's no point in "encouraging" someone to play a certain mode if that person will stop playing the game as a result.The end goal for the developer is not to have people play as many types of content as possible. The end goal is to have as many players as possible play at least one of the types of content. Thus, you add to the game only if it gets you new players without losing old ones. You encourage players to play new types of content only if it would keep them in game longer. The moment you confuse the means with the end, your game will start to suffer.

[STIHL.2489]

@yann.1946 said:@STIHL.2489 Which doesn't necessarily mean keeping the loot away from people their are a lot more reasons explained in this tread explaining why.

No, if you read what the raid proponents say.. it all boils down to that single thing, they want their special loots to feel better then the peasant casuals.

@Blocki.4931 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.

You're right in that it IS their job to entertain you. You're missing the point however. I clearly said multiple times that not all content has to appeal to everybody and why that is perfectly fine. If something has a requirement you're not willing to commit to, your choice. Don't beg for them to remove that requirement for no reason other than you not wanting to put in any work. You can get things done with 30 minutes a day if said things are set up properly. Niche content that doesn't aim at the target audience is a massive failure, nothing else.

Casuals can stay in their own lane and not demand everything to be casual friendly, despite 95% of the content being aimed at them. Let that last 5% aim for its own specific audience. Easy.

Lets get things clear, 100% of this content is for people that can do Raids. That means, there is more content for you then anyone else. I don't see how that's fair.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them.

There's your problem. You're not the only one paying. It's their job to entertain

all

of their customers, not just you personally. And because these customers all have their own preferences, it is not possible to make every single feature in the game be entertaining, or appeal, to everyone equally. Hence the need for different content catering to the desires for particular groups of players. Of course not all of it will match your own preferences. It was never the intent, and it never will be. Because your wishes aren't any more special than those of any other customer.

And... wrong again.

100% of the content in this game is available and accessible to someone with the skills to do raids. That means, while we both may pay into the game, you directly get more content made for you. Now unless you spend directly more then I do to justify the additional content made just for you, that's just a bad customer service plan.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@yann.1946 said:@STIHL.2489 Which doesn't necessarily mean keeping the loot away from people their are a lot more reasons explained in this tread explaining why.

No, if you read what the raid proponents say.. it all boils down to that single thing, they want their special loots to feel better then the peasant casuals.

@Blocki.4931 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.

You're right in that it IS their job to entertain you. You're missing the point however. I clearly said multiple times that not all content has to appeal to everybody and why that is perfectly fine. If something has a requirement you're not willing to commit to, your choice. Don't beg for them to remove that requirement for no reason other than you not wanting to put in any work. You can get things done with 30 minutes a day if said things are set up properly. Niche content that doesn't aim at the target audience is a massive failure, nothing else.

Casuals can stay in their own lane and not demand everything to be casual friendly, despite 95% of the content being aimed at them. Let that last 5% aim for its own specific audience. Easy.

Lets get things clear, 100% of this content is for people that can do Raids. That means, there is more content for you then anyone else. I don't see how that's fair.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them.

There's your problem. You're not the only one paying. It's their job to entertain

all

of their customers, not just you personally. And because these customers all have their own preferences, it is not possible to make every single feature in the game be entertaining, or appeal, to everyone equally. Hence the need for different content catering to the desires for particular groups of players. Of course not all of it will match your own preferences. It was never the intent, and it never will be. Because your wishes aren't any more special than those of any other customer.

And... wrong again.

100% of the content in this game is available and accessible to someone with the skills to do raids. That means, while we both may pay into the game, you directly get more content made for you. Now unless you spend directly more then I do to justify the additional content made just for you, that's just a bad customer service plan.

Let me tell you a secret, we're not born with raiding superpowers. The skills you talk about? They're trained. By - surprise, surprise - raiding. So don't give me that load of dolyak crap. The game gives precisely the same options to each and every of its customers. It is our preferences, and ultimately our choices, which make our experiences different. You're not happy about something? Then change your choices. Simple. It's easier to complain on forums, I'll give you that. But you're not going to accomplish anything.

[ArchGenie.1063]

(Comment deleted)

[STIHL.2489]

@Grogba.6204 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.

Newsflash, I paid them too and I enjoy the current raids and would like more wings to be released in the future. What is this now, a kitten measuring contest? Vote with your wallet?

That's great advice, and given the trend of GW2's sales being in direct decline since HoT and Raids many are doing exactly that.

Nobody forces you to play raids and if you only play for escapism sake then why would you even require legendary armor because let us be honest here, all youwant from raids is quick gratification and shinies, lot's of shinies, and the second you acquire said shinies you would just leave that part of the content behind you since it doesn't offer you anything beyond that. Why should you care about the enjoyment of others.

Actually, I personally think it's a stupid bad plan to have Legendary Armor only being obtainable from niche content from an expansion, they should have at least a Core, and PoF method.

I can't obtain Warbringer without playing WvW nor can I obtain the Ascencion without playing PvP. Same goes for Ad Infinitum which requires one to play fractals and every single one of them is at the very least two months of work (less so nowadays for Ad Infinitum). Time to add an "redeem legendary backpack" vendor to all three modes?

And that is also a bad move on their part, they really should have a HoT and PoF legendary back item as well. Just because they did something one way, does not mean that was a smart move to begin with, nor does it mean they should keep making that same mistake.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@yann.1946 said:@STIHL.2489 Which doesn't necessarily mean keeping the loot away from people their are a lot more reasons explained in this tread explaining why.

No, if you read what the raid proponents say.. it all boils down to that single thing, they want their special loots to feel better then the peasant casuals.

@Blocki.4931 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.

You're right in that it IS their job to entertain you. You're missing the point however. I clearly said multiple times that not all content has to appeal to everybody and why that is perfectly fine. If something has a requirement you're not willing to commit to, your choice. Don't beg for them to remove that requirement for no reason other than you not wanting to put in any work. You can get things done with 30 minutes a day if said things are set up properly. Niche content that doesn't aim at the target audience is a massive failure, nothing else.

Casuals can stay in their own lane and not demand everything to be casual friendly, despite 95% of the content being aimed at them. Let that last 5% aim for its own specific audience. Easy.

Lets get things clear, 100% of this content is for people that can do Raids. That means, there is more content for you then anyone else. I don't see how that's fair.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them.

There's your problem. You're not the only one paying. It's their job to entertain

all

of their customers, not just you personally. And because these customers all have their own preferences, it is not possible to make every single feature in the game be entertaining, or appeal, to everyone equally. Hence the need for different content catering to the desires for particular groups of players. Of course not all of it will match your own preferences. It was never the intent, and it never will be. Because your wishes aren't any more special than those of any other customer.

And... wrong again.

100% of the content in this game is available and accessible to someone with the skills to do raids. That means, while we both may pay into the game, you directly get more content made for you. Now unless you spend directly more then I do to justify the additional content made just for you, that's just a bad customer service plan.

Let me tell you a secret, we're not born with raiding superpowers. The skills you talk about? They're

trained

. By - surprise, surprise - raiding. So don't give me that load of dolyak crap. The game gives precisely the same options to each and every of its customers. It is our preferences, and ultimately our choices, which make our experiences different. You're not happy about something? Then change your choices. Simple. It's easier to complain on forums, I'll give you that. But you're not going to accomplish anything.

Given they put this content in because people complained on the forums.. I'd say.. you're wrong again.

Seems to be an ongoing trend with you.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:But the people doing this failing are enjoying this.Some people, maybe. Most really

don't

. Just look at how toxic most groups get as soon as they wipe a few times. It's exactly because they

don't

like wiping over and over again.

Let's rephrase people like the wiping in progression and the fact that this possibility existsAgain, most of the raiders

don't

really like that, and they do everything they can to minimize that possibility as much as possible. I mean, they may say they do like the possibility, but in truth it's only until it gets realized.The amount of those that really like the challenge, and the thrill of not being sure if they succeed or not, until the very last moment? It's very small. Way too small to sustain the mode.

Mmm... there's something to this, but you're not giving the full picture. It is true that raiders (and gamers in general ) don't really want to fail. It's the most prominent reason for elitism and toxicity, after all. But they do like to get challenged. In a sense it's similar to track driving - you don't really want to crash. But you definitely do want to drive on the limit. Come to think of it, it also explains the way players focus on the meta. There's a certain strive for perfection, and the raids (or the racetracks) challenge you to perfect your performance under specific conditions. You could argue that's just me, but I don't think so. I see the same in my raider friends, and I see the same in my car enthusiast friends. And challenge is a huge, important part of it. There needs to be enough depth to it, enough intricacies to master, or it gets boring too fast. The devs recognize this, I think, and they're doing really well to provide fun and engaging fights for the people who seek just that. Of course, it's not for everyone. Just like not everyone goes to drive on a racetrack.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@yann.1946 said:@STIHL.2489 Which doesn't necessarily mean keeping the loot away from people their are a lot more reasons explained in this tread explaining why.

No, if you read what the raid proponents say.. it all boils down to that single thing, they want their special loots to feel better then the peasant casuals.

@Blocki.4931 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them. It is not, nor shall it ever be, my job in this relationship. I do this for fun, and escapism, not work, not a job, not a duty, but frivolous mindless escapism. No.. I don't plan to "git gud" as I don't have the time or the give a kitten to turn this game into a work.

You're right in that it IS their job to entertain you. You're missing the point however. I clearly said multiple times that not all content has to appeal to everybody and why that is perfectly fine. If something has a requirement you're not willing to commit to, your choice. Don't beg for them to remove that requirement for no reason other than you not wanting to put in any work. You can get things done with 30 minutes a day if said things are set up properly. Niche content that doesn't aim at the target audience is a massive failure, nothing else.

Casuals can stay in their own lane and not demand everything to be casual friendly, despite 95% of the content being aimed at them. Let that last 5% aim for its own specific audience. Easy.

Lets get things clear, 100% of this content is for people that can do Raids. That means, there is more content for you then anyone else. I don't see how that's fair.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Why would the game accomodate YOU when it's mostly your job, you are playing the game you shouldn't complain about having to do so.

Lets get one thing very clear here, it's their Job to entertain me, that is why I pay them.

There's your problem. You're not the only one paying. It's their job to entertain

all

of their customers, not just you personally. And because these customers all have their own preferences, it is not possible to make every single feature in the game be entertaining, or appeal, to everyone equally. Hence the need for different content catering to the desires for particular groups of players. Of course not all of it will match your own preferences. It was never the intent, and it never will be. Because your wishes aren't any more special than those of any other customer.

And... wrong again.

100% of the content in this game is available and accessible to someone with the skills to do raids. That means, while we both may pay into the game, you directly get more content made for you. Now unless you spend directly more then I do to justify the additional content made just for you, that's just a bad customer service plan.

Let me tell you a secret, we're not born with raiding superpowers. The skills you talk about? They're

trained

. By - surprise, surprise - raiding. So don't give me that load of dolyak crap. The game gives precisely the same options to each and every of its customers. It is our preferences, and ultimately our choices, which make our experiences different. You're not happy about something? Then change your choices. Simple. It's easier to complain on forums, I'll give you that. But you're not going to accomplish anything.

Given they put this content in because people complained on the forums.. I'd say.. you're wrong again.

Seems to be an ongoing trend with you.

Wanna bet? :)

[Grogba.6204]

I've spend multiple evenings just to finally kill my first VG back when raids were still new. Died dozens of times, in the end the enrage timer fucked us up, not the mechanics but ultimately we succeeded and that moment when the boss collapses is still one of the most amazing experiences I had in this game. Raid players are not some inhuman beings that play "better" (in terms of dealing with boss mechanics). Outside of a few gifted individuals - as with all things - everyone of them reached this point through sheer determination and dedication.

And even among the raiding community you'll find players that are content with being able to clear bosses and players that can finish Deimos or Dhuum CM with less than 10 players without breaking a sweat.

The solution is not adding an easymode but rather adding encounters of various difficulty in the future (like W4) and providing a reason to utilize the game's mechanics more because the main problem is still that the level of play (so to speak) necessary to clear raids may end up helping you in other parts of the PvE experience but is not required at any point which leads to players running fullspeed into a wall as soon as they step into this part of the content.

Discord, Training Squads, class mentors, statics and sharing information is great and dandy but all of this would not be as necessary if A-Net designed rewarding content between fractals and raids.

[Cerioth.7062]

Please no easy modes. I would prefer Anet to focus on actually maintaining the current raid quality and producing new wings than wasting resources on easy/hard modes. Current system with normal + challenge mote work well enough.

Raids are accessible. You just have to put in the effort to make them accessible to you. You dont even need meta comp or perfect rotations to accomplish kills. Just the will to learn and adapt to situations. I feel like a lot of people have misconceptions when it comes to raiding and accessing them. It's more about team work and co-operating together than anything else.

[Tyson.5160]

@Assic.2746 said:

Do you really believe that Raid Infantile Mode is a solution?I don't. And as a proof of that we have Super Adventure Box Infantile Mode.

Do people use it to learn normal mode?No

I did.

Perhaps they should remove T1-3 Fractals while they are at it.

[Anvil.9230]

I also play an other game you know perhaps: Eve Online.

It's a different kind of MMO of course, a sandbox...and it has not the reputation to be an easy game....In this other MMO, it is to the players to improve themselves....Never, they ask the team who develop the game to decrease its diffiulty...or nerf this or that.A big part of people satisfaction is the progress they made.As death is very punitive in that game, people has to prove their capacity before to be involved into risky business....They have to progress and to socialize to join people who do interesting things (so with a big reward but also a big risk).

The mantra is more Something like this:

By comparison, access to GW2 raid is not difficult.

;)