Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Lonami.2987]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:You are a legend in my book if you bought 150 kills. I wouldnt even dreamed of farming all that gold wether its irl orin game.

Sad.

I didnt say its a good thing but i prefer it over farming faceroll modes and getting the most prestigious gear in the game.

I find the idea that there are people who would consider gear "prestigious" to be sad on the face of it. There is no "prestige" in having anything in the game.

What I find sad, is that these people would rather drive away other players and kill their game, then share their gear.

Let that process for a while, because that is what is really being said here.

And games have died with this mentality before.

See WildStar for a prime example of what happens when you only listen to the elitists.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:It can also mean that its not easy to aquire. "just buy your way" u must not be aware of the money that ud need to spend to 100% buy the aquisition of the armor. The actual number of ppl that bought it entirely is VERY small compaired to ppl that bought a couple of runs and then farmed the rest legit or did it all legit.

The amount is irrelevant. If you can buy your way, you can buy your way, which completely negates any value in having "earned" it. That you seem to prefer players buy their way to the goal than that they earn it through hard work in a manner they actually enjoy, speaks volumes.

I wonder how many of these "easy mode haters" are actual raid sellers that exploit other players for money.

Would explain why they are so toxic against easy mode.

In fact, it makes a hell lot of sense.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:I mean daily gw2 reaches 1k tops during prime time. So yes a single streamer having a raid speccific event pulling 4 times that amount alone says alot.The numbers are really that low? Remember, we're talking about the game that once had 400k+ concurrent logins. I knew the population dropped, but i really didn't think the game is so dead right now...

(but more seriously: i think your numbers are... suspicious. I mean, 1k is the number of concurrent players that WvW alone can pull off on good days. And we know how well populated that mode is. And for all we know, those 4k players watching the stream may be most of the raid community in this game)

[zealex.9410]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But, that aside. Truth is, no matter what, what they are doing right now is not working.

That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that. Raiding with its current difficulty is attracting people. You couldn't be more wrong tbh. Deny it or accept it. This event is a big success compared to any other stuff we have seen from GW2 over the last months. ^^It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

Last months

?

Oh sure.. I'd give you that, absolutely, currently Raids are the only thing not hemorrhaging player activity in the game currently.

But Raids and HoT were launched over 2 years ago, and the game has been losing players and funds in a direct downward slope since then. no doubt due to their addition to the game. I mean, what else can happen, when they made direct efforts to kill everything else.. it's no surprise that a few years later all they are left with is.. what they are left with.

What could have happened? We might never know, but, what they did, was bad.

Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request.

If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it.

But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable.

Sure.

Lets use one of the examples you have put out, the

new Fractals

which after slogging though them a few times myself, for the story and because I used to enjoy fractals, it's clear they are designed for people who like twitch combat and are looking for a mini-raid type of environment. They even went so far as to revise some of the older fractals to make them more drawn out and boring slogs. So they are just another move to push the game away from the casual player and more into the direction of catering to Raiders.

Kudos.

If the latest fractal to be raid like i must question how much u raided. If anything this fractal is the cosest thing to dungeons we got since forever.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I mean daily gw2 reaches 1k tops during prime time. So yes a single streamer having a raid speccific event pulling 4 times that amount alone says alot.The numbers are really that low? Remember, we're talking about the game that once had 400k+ concurrent logins. I knew the population dropped, but i really didn't think the game is so dead right now...

(but more seriously: i think your numbers are... suspicious. I mean, 1k is the number of concurrent players that

WvW alone

can pull off on good days. And we know how well populated that mode is. And for all we know, those 4k players watching the stream may be most of the raid community in this game)

Pre hot the game didnt have these kinds of viewership. I premember pre hot gw2 averaged out around 600 viewers on twitch.

It must also be noted that not everyone watches gw2 on twitch because the game isnt really fun to watch as woth every mmo really.

Also im sure theres a number of ppl that didnt watch the raid tourney because you know alot of ppl that raid are ppl with families and jobs.

[zealex.9410]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I mean daily gw2 reaches 1k tops during prime time. So yes a single streamer having a raid speccific event pulling 4 times that amount alone says alot.The numbers are really that low? Remember, we're talking about the game that once had 400k+ concurrent logins. I knew the population dropped, but i really didn't think the game is so dead right now...

(but more seriously: i think your numbers are... suspicious. I mean, 1k is the number of concurrent players that

WvW alone

can pull off on good days. And we know how well populated that mode is. And for all we know, those 4k players watching the stream may be most of the raid community in this game)

Pre hot the game didnt have these kinds of viewership. I premember pre hot gw2 averaged out around 600 viewers on twitch.

It must also be noted that not everyone watches gw2 on twitch because the game isnt really fun to watch as woth every mmo really.

Furthermore im sure theres a number of ppl that didnt watch the raid tourney because you know alot of ppl that raid are ppl with families and jobs.

Also, where did you get with the wvw numbers? Im curious because id assume between all the servers as well as ppl watching wvw stream the number must be really alot closer to tens of thousands

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it

internal

to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that

they

have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to

not

have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

So, let's not engage in semantics, but engage in extremities instead? :) We're social beings, the kind of abstraction you're imposing here is neither practical, nor realistic.

[zealex.9410]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it

internal

to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that

they

have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to

not

have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

So, let's not engage in semantics, but engage in extremities instead? :) We're social beings, the kind of abstraction you're imposing here is neither practical, nor realistic.

XD

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Lonami.2987 said:And games have died with this mentality before.

See WildStar for a prime example of what happens when you only listen to the elitists.Wrong. See Wildstar for a prime example of fucking up very basics of game design that occur long before you even enter the first raid.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Since when 4k is a lot? This game supposedly still has 7 digits of active players, remember?

Funny how you folks still deny that this isn't significant. Ohoni already gave it's own reason: GW2 isn't a streaming game and therefore it usually has little viewer counts. Insofar it is absolutely astonishing and outstanding to have 4k viewers on a pve tournament. With content in it that is referred to the most challenging one.Raids are keeping this game alive too. It would be way emptier without them.

@"Lonami.2987" said:I wonder how many of these "easy mode haters" are actual raid sellers that exploit other players for money.Would explain why they are so toxic against easy mode.In fact, it makes a hell lot of sense.

I have over 1k raid boss kills in GW2 and not a single one was sold to any other player. The biggest reward I got from others was "Thank you!" from people that were inexperienced and had no clue about raids at all and I/we was/were helping them to achieve their goals - and I'm totally fine with it! Around 100 of those kills were repeatable kills so I also got no reward for them myself (besides 3 bags of trash items).Still I'm against easy modes, the reasons were were explained multiple times now. It's not our mistake if you haven't read them although you have quoted posts that were made weeks ago!

[Grogba.6204]

Nearing my 750th kill and started raiding rather late (shortly before the release of W3) joined a static and from failing Gorseval repeatedly we reached a level where we can easily clear the majority of encounters in one evening. Since we can only raid for 2-3 hours per evening due to work, jobs, study and rl our progress is ultimately slower. For similar reasons we are not always full, relying on PUGs, usually for DPS. But yes, keep spreading lies on how we are all selling raids and ostracize players.

[zealex.9410]

@Grogba.6204 said:Nearing my 750th kill and started raiding rather late (shortly before the release of W3) joined a static and from failing Gorseval repeatedly we reached a level where we can easily clear the majority of encounters in one evening. Since we can only raid for 2-3 hours per evening due to work, jobs, study and rl our progress is ultimately slower. For similar reasons we are not always full, relying on PUGs, usually for DPS. But yes, keep spreading lies on how we are all selling raids and ostracize players.

Lies. I heard to raid you need to play the game like its your job.

[Ohoni.6057]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Frustration comes from the dificulty. You are frustrated when something doesnt go your way and judging by your vote thats the dificulty.

But the way raids are structured, I could perform horribly and the raid could still succeed, if others carry me. Or I could perform flawlessly and the raid could fail, if some other players drop the ball. Personal success would reduce the odds of failure, but far from eliminate it. And again, even if by chance I reach some zen state where raids I'm a part of succeed 100% of the time, that does not negate the annoyance of the period in between.

Thats the case with every bit of content in gw2.

Yes, but other content in the game has a much higher chance of success, and a much lower risk of bad players disrupting the outcome. That's the point of the easy mode, it would have a chance of success more in line with other content in the game. Again, if you don't enjoy the other content in the game, then you likely wouldn't enjoy easy mode either, but if you do enjoy the rest of the game, then you would have a much higher chance of enjoying easy mode than you would the current option.

The reward is satisfaction. Its not something physical, unlike legendary armor which is and you can see it but you cant identify who got it easier than the other which makes it a slap to the face to those who made it legit.

Again, no. If you can't be satisfied in knowing that you accomplished something, then there's nothing the game can, or should do about that.

Actually twitch is a great tool to tell a game's health and interest. Gw2 everages around 1k at prime time. Having a single streamer pull off 3-4k on 1 specific content is very indicative of that contents health wether you like it or not.

Again, no it's not. It means that this content is interesting to watch, but means nothing about whether it's interesting to play. Meanwhile, Fortnite averages around 190K viewers, so again, Twitch viewership should not be worth considering for this game. The total numbers are insignificantly small. It's like judging a football lineman by how many touchdowns he makes.

Wether it takes low effort or not you arent qualified to answer unless you have a plan with numbers and all.

Untill then ill assume that no it wouldnt

That's a foolish position to take. You know that.

Theres very much one group of devs that make raids as there are 3 teams that make living world. They do work work with artists ans sound designers but they arent part of the raid team and they dont work on the actual raid encounters.

But again, the raid team does not operate in a vacuum. There are multiple LW teams because they work on a rotating pattern, where each team is focused on their map. It remains an absolute, incontrovertible fact that the work put in to making the raid could have been applied to other projects instead, the raids are not just some minor hobby in the grand scheme of things that take no resources away from the rest of the game, and it's getting rather pathetic that people keep trying to portray it as such.

@"Lonami.2987" said:I wonder how many of these "easy mode haters" are actual raid sellers that exploit other players for money.

Would explain why they are so toxic against easy mode.

In fact, it makes a hell lot of sense.

I assume at least half of them, maybe more. It's the only thing that would make sense.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it

internal

to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that

they

have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to

not

have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

So, let's not engage in semantics, but engage in extremities instead? :) We're social beings, the kind of abstraction you're imposing here is neither practical, nor realistic.

I'm not saying that the intrinsic value is the only thing that can matter, I'm just saying that it should override extrinsic values like showing off. A player who is happy because he has a item should matter more than a player who can only be happy because he believes others are jealous of him for having the item.

@"Grogba.6204" said:Nearing my 750th kill and started raiding rather late (shortly before the release of W3) joined a static and from failing Gorseval repeatedly we reached a level where we can easily clear the majority of encounters in one evening. Since we can only raid for 2-3 hours per evening due to work, jobs, study and rl our progress is ultimately slower. For similar reasons we are not always full, relying on PUGs, usually for DPS. But yes, keep spreading lies on how we are all selling raids and ostracize players.

"Only" 2-3 hours per evening? Geeze.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I mean daily gw2 reaches 1k tops during prime time. So yes a single streamer having a raid speccific event pulling 4 times that amount alone says alot.The numbers are really that low? Remember, we're talking about the game that once had 400k+ concurrent logins. I knew the population dropped, but i really didn't think the game is so dead right now...

(but more seriously: i think your numbers are... suspicious. I mean, 1k is the number of concurrent players that

WvW alone

can pull off on good days. And we know how well populated that mode is. And for all we know, those 4k players watching the stream may be most of the raid community in this game)

Pre hot the game didnt have these kinds of viewership. I premember pre hot gw2 averaged out around 600 viewers on twitch.Of course. It was a game mostly for casuals, and casuals generally neither watch twitch, nor stream.

So, comparing twitch numbers can tell you only something about the changes in sizes of hardcore parts of the population (like raiders and spvp players), but it tells you absolutely nothing about what's going on in the rest of the game.

On the other hand, seeing that the raid tournament whole raiding community was so excited about got around 4k viewership does tell us that the vast majority of the players didn't care about it in the slightest.

That doesn't tell us anything good about raid popularity.

@zealex.9410 said:Also, where did you get with the wvw numbers? Im curious because id assume between all the servers as well as ppl watching wvw stream the number must be really alot closer to tens of thousandsMaybe. I was only trying to estimate the floor numbers, and was extremely conservative.By the way, it seems that when you said about "1k tops during prime time" you were talking about twitch numbers, not concurrent logins as i thought, right?In that case, see above - it just means this stream was more interesting among people that watch streams. It also means that streamers are completely unimportant when viewed in the context of the whole game. I mean, seriously, the likes and dislikes of 4k players aren't going to influence the game in the slightest - if that many people stopped playing today, the game would not even notice.

[STIHL.2489]

@zealex.9410 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But, that aside. Truth is, no matter what, what they are doing right now is not working.

That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that. Raiding with its current difficulty is attracting people. You couldn't be more wrong tbh. Deny it or accept it. This event is a big success compared to any other stuff we have seen from GW2 over the last months. ^^It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

Last months

?

Oh sure.. I'd give you that, absolutely, currently Raids are the only thing not hemorrhaging player activity in the game currently.

But Raids and HoT were launched over 2 years ago, and the game has been losing players and funds in a direct downward slope since then. no doubt due to their addition to the game. I mean, what else can happen, when they made direct efforts to kill everything else.. it's no surprise that a few years later all they are left with is.. what they are left with.

What could have happened? We might never know, but, what they did, was bad.

Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request.

If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it.

But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable.

Sure.

Lets use one of the examples you have put out, the

new Fractals

which after slogging though them a few times myself, for the story and because I used to enjoy fractals, it's clear they are designed for people who like twitch combat and are looking for a mini-raid type of environment. They even went so far as to revise some of the older fractals to make them more drawn out and boring slogs. So they are just another move to push the game away from the casual player and more into the direction of catering to Raiders.

Kudos.

If the latest fractal to be raid like i must question how much u raided. If anything this fractal is the cosest thing to dungeons we got since forever.

Ark was an ugly bag of over inflated HP that turned into a DPS slog dependent on running a meta build to get it done in a reasonable time frame, coupled with a tacky twitch mechanic.

Felt like being stuck doing VG again, with a lot of unnecessary build up.

[Brynioch.1873]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But, that aside. Truth is, no matter what, what they are doing right now is not working.

That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that. Raiding with its current difficulty is attracting people. You couldn't be more wrong tbh. Deny it or accept it. This event is a big success compared to any other stuff we have seen from GW2 over the last months. ^^It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

Last months

?

Oh sure.. I'd give you that, absolutely, currently Raids are the only thing not hemorrhaging player activity in the game currently.

But Raids and HoT were launched over 2 years ago, and the game has been losing players and funds in a direct downward slope since then. no doubt due to their addition to the game. I mean, what else can happen, when they made direct efforts to kill everything else.. it's no surprise that a few years later all they are left with is.. what they are left with.

What could have happened? We might never know, but, what they did, was bad.

Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request.

If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it.

But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable.

Sure.

Lets use one of the examples you have put out, the

new Fractals

which after slogging though them a few times myself, for the story and because I used to enjoy fractals, it's clear they are designed for people who like twitch combat and are looking for a mini-raid type of environment. They even went so far as to revise some of the older fractals to make them more drawn out and boring slogs. So they are just another move to push the game away from the casual player and more into the direction of catering to Raiders.

Kudos.

If the latest fractal to be raid like i must question how much u raided. If anything this fractal is the cosest thing to dungeons we got since forever.

Ark was an ugly bag of over inflated HP that turned into a DPS slog dependent on running a meta build to get it done in a reasonable time frame, coupled with a tacky twitch mechanic.

Felt like being stuck doing VG again, with a lot of unnecessary build up.

The lastest fractal was Twilight Oasis, not Shattered Observatory.High level fractals need to be balanced for optimal groups or they get boring really quickly. Everything on Ark has large tells and has more than enough time to react to. 2-3 Seconds to react has nothing to do with twitch.

[Voltekka.2375]

I dunno, raids shouldnt be made easier. You want to raid? Learn how to do it. Raids arent fractals, they were not meant to be fractals. Challenging content, thats what it is. But give leggy armor an alternate pve path. No unique skin, ofc, time gated it at 35 weeks minimum, make it cost more.Edit: my voting was a misclick

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it

internal

to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that

they

have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to

not

have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

So, let's not engage in semantics, but engage in extremities instead? :) We're social beings, the kind of abstraction you're imposing here is neither practical, nor realistic.

I'm not saying that the intrinsic value is the only thing that can matter, I'm just saying that it should override extrinsic values like showing off. A player who is happy because

he

has a item should matter more than a player who can only be happy because he believes others are jealous of him for having the item.

And like I said, you can't just randomly decide to exclude the external factors. This isn't some spherical body in a vacuum, happiness is influenced by great many things. And also you don't get to decide how and why other people feel. Telling what "should" matter for someone else is pointless.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it

internal

to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that

they

have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to

not

have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

So, let's not engage in semantics, but engage in extremities instead? :) We're social beings, the kind of abstraction you're imposing here is neither practical, nor realistic.

I'm not saying that the intrinsic value is the only thing that can matter, I'm just saying that it should override extrinsic values like showing off. A player who is happy because

he

has a item should matter more than a player who can only be happy because he believes others are jealous of him for having the item.

And like I said, you can't just randomly decide to exclude the external factors. This isn't some spherical body in a vacuum, happiness is influenced by great many things. And also you don't get to decide how and why other people feel. Telling what "should" matter for someone else is pointless.

And again, I recognize that, I just don't believe it should be as valuable as the intrinsic value. Think of it like this.

Person A: Wants to have a thing, does not care who else has it.

Person B: Wants a thing, but only if Person A doesn't have it.

There are tour possible states, 1. Only A has it, 2. Only B has it, 3. both have it, and 4. neither have it.

Person A can be happy in states 1 and 3, Person B can only be happy in state 2, at least one of them will be sad in every state, but both of them would be sad in state 4.

So if a developer has to choose, I really think that they should choose to go with option 3, because while that may not make Person B happy, I don't believe it's justifiable to support his happiness if it must come at the expense of Person A's, whereas Person A is happy to share, as any child is taught to do. If you can't make everyone happy, be satisfied with making the players happy who aren't being entitled, greedy jerks about it.

[Eramonster.2718]

While this been going for weeks. A guildie in one of the guild I'm in told us he did raid for the first time yesterday. How excited he was, got 5 bosses down and guildmates(including me) that were online congratulated him :smile: . The brave lad ventured alone with PuGs (strangers :scream:) after enquiring about raids sometime ago. He made the first step :bawling: so proud of him.

I also recalled "Fractal is progressive, to prepare/train players in game by introducing more mechanics as they go higher levels. And if the players want more challenging contents, they have raids." Or something along those lines :sweat_smile:.

Will open a can of worms when players start requesting alternate ways to get shinnies out from WvW, SPvP etc. And ultimately, I don't want to deny those who made effort.

[zealex.9410]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Frustration comes from the dificulty. You are frustrated when something doesnt go your way and judging by your vote thats the dificulty.

But the way raids are structured, I could perform horribly and the raid could still succeed, if others carry me. Or I could perform flawlessly and the raid could fail, if some other players drop the ball. Personal success would reduce the odds of failure, but far from eliminate it. And again, even if by chance I reach some zen state where raids I'm a part of succeed 100% of the time, that does not negate the annoyance of the period in between.

Thats the case with every bit of content in gw2.

Yes, but other content in the game has a much higher chance of success, and a much lower risk of bad players disrupting the outcome. That's the point of the easy mode, it would have a chance of success more in line with other content in the game. Again, if you don't enjoy the

other

content in the game, then you likely wouldn't enjoy easy mode either, but if you

do

enjoy the rest of the game, then you would have a much higher chance of enjoying easy mode than you would the current option.

In other bit of content namely fractals each player matter more compaired to raids. In raids 3 or 4 good players can sort of carry the mediocre ones and of 1 or 2 die its not a big issue.In fractals each one of the 4 ppl is importand and him/her dying mid fractal will up yyour chances of failure sagnificantly.

The reward is satisfaction. Its not something physical, unlike legendary armor which is and you can see it but you cant identify who got it easier than the other which makes it a slap to the face to those who made it legit.

Again, no. If you can't be satisfied in

knowing

that you accomplished something, then there's nothing the game can, or

should

do about that.

The game can and sort of does it rn with the armor. If you arent satisfied with your option to not go after the armor then why should the game do something about it?

Actually twitch is a great tool to tell a game's health and interest. Gw2 everages around 1k at prime time. Having a single streamer pull off 3-4k on 1 specific content is very indicative of that contents health wether you like it or not.

Again, no it's not. It means that this content is interesting to

watch,

but means nothing about whether it's interesting to

play.

Meanwhile, Fortnite averages around 190K viewers, so again, Twitch viewership should not be worth considering for this game. The total numbers are insignificantly small. It's like judging a football lineman by how many touchdowns he makes.

Nah fortnight has 190k ppl watching but it also has 4 or so mill concurent players playing. The numbers on twitch translate in a game's health and population very easily you can denny it all you want but it doesnt make it false.Sure some might find it interesting to watch but much like with everything that you stream for gw2 if the viewer doesnt understand the action he will get bored and leave (esp since the action in gw2 is so messy).Consistent 3.5-4k viewers suggest otherwise.

Wether it takes low effort or not you arent qualified to answer unless you have a plan with numbers and all.

Untill then ill assume that no it wouldnt

That's a foolish position to take. You know that.

As is yours /shrug

Theres very much one group of devs that make raids as there are 3 teams that make living world. They do work work with artists ans sound designers but they arent part of the raid team and they dont work on the actual raid encounters.

But again, the raid team does not operate in a vacuum. There are multiple LW teams because they work on a rotating pattern, where each team is focused on their map. It remains an absolute, incontrovertible

fact

that the work put in to making the raid

could

have been applied to other projects instead, the raids are not just some minor hobby in the grand scheme of things that take no resources away from the rest of the game, and it's getting rather pathetic that people keep trying to portray it as such.

They very much are. Unlike the lw team ra8ds have

only

1 team thats 2 less teams than lw. Aditionally expansions provide opem world style content, and thats 100 ppl usually working on the expac meanwhile iirc the raid team are like 10 or so ppl thats 1/10th. Compaired to other parts of the game, the man power working on raids is small as to be expected.

And vice versa, lw has 3 teams worth of resources given to them to make a weeks worth of content at best. The eat te bulk of the resources in anet but you dont see me commplain about it. Yes raids require resources, who ever told u otherwise... but the bottom line is they require much less than lw due to their size.

@"Lonami.2987" said:I wonder how many of these "easy mode haters" are actual raid sellers that exploit other players for money.

Would explain why they are so toxic against easy mode.

In fact, it makes a hell lot of sense.

I assume at least half of them, maybe more. It's the only thing that would make sense.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it

internal

to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that

they

have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to

not

have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

So, let's not engage in semantics, but engage in extremities instead? :) We're social beings, the kind of abstraction you're imposing here is neither practical, nor realistic.

I'm not saying that the intrinsic value is the only thing that can matter, I'm just saying that it should override extrinsic values like showing off. A player who is happy because

he

has a item should matter more than a player who can only be happy because he believes others are jealous of him for having the item.

This is not a single player game, arena net's focus should be at player satisfaction at large and at large it lies with ppl liki g the fact that a cool reward is tied to raids.

@"Grogba.6204" said:Nearing my 750th kill and started raiding rather late (shortly before the release of W3) joined a static and from failing Gorseval repeatedly we reached a level where we can easily clear the majority of encounters in one evening. Since we can only raid for 2-3 hours per evening due to work, jobs, study and rl our progress is ultimately slower. For similar reasons we are not always full, relying on PUGs, usually for DPS. But yes, keep spreading lies on how we are all selling raids and ostracize players.

"Only"

2-3 hours per evening? Geeze.

Yeah everages around 17-25 mins per week.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:I mean daily gw2 reaches 1k tops during prime time. So yes a single streamer having a raid speccific event pulling 4 times that amount alone says alot.The numbers are really that low? Remember, we're talking about the game that once had 400k+ concurrent logins. I knew the population dropped, but i really didn't think the game is so dead right now...

(but more seriously: i think your numbers are... suspicious. I mean, 1k is the number of concurrent players that

WvW alone

can pull off on good days. And we know how well populated that mode is. And for all we know, those 4k players watching the stream may be most of the raid community in this game)

Pre hot the game didnt have these kinds of viewership. I premember pre hot gw2 averaged out around 600 viewers on twitch.Of course. It was a game mostly for casuals, and casuals generally neither watch twitch, nor stream.

Explains why there are more ppl on twitch showing interest in the game and asling if they should buy the expansion now compaired to pre hot.

So, comparing twitch numbers can tell you only something about the changes in sizes of hardcore parts of the population (like raiders and spvp players), but it tells you absolutely nothing about what's going on in the rest of the game.

On the other hand, seeing that the raid tournament whole raiding community was so excited about got around 4k viewership does tell us that the vast majority of the players didn't care about it in the slightest.

That doesn't tell us anything good about raid popularity.

On the other hand, seeing that the pof expansion launch the whole game was so excited about got around 8k viewership... oops wrong meme.

@zealex.9410 said:Also, where did you get with the wvw numbers? Im curious because id assume between all the servers as well as ppl watching wvw stream the number must be really alot closer to tens of thousandsMaybe. I was only trying to estimate the floor numbers, and was extremely conservative.By the way, it seems that when you said about "1k tops during prime time" you were talking about twitch numbers, not concurrent logins as i thought, right?In that case, see above - it just means this stream was more interesting among people that watch streams. It also means that streamers are completely unimportant when viewed in the context of the whole game. I mean, seriously, the likes and dislikes of 4k players aren't going to influence the game in the slightest - if that many people stopped playing today, the game would not even notice.

Its your choice to make the blind eye and say infuencers are not importand and i guess that could be the case if it only aplied to gw2 but every mmo has viewership balanced for its population +- how comfortably viewable the content is.

[zealex.9410]

@Voltekka.2375 said:I dunno, raids shouldnt be made easier. You want to raid? Learn how to do it. Raids arent fractals, they were not meant to be fractals. Challenging content, thats what it is. But give leggy armor an alternate pve path. No unique skin, ofc, time gated it at 35 weeks minimum, make it cost more.Edit: my voting was a misclick

When you say no unique skin u mean? Because im very much against pve thats not as hard as raids getting the envoy skin.

[zealex.9410]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it

internal

to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that

they

have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to

not

have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

So, let's not engage in semantics, but engage in extremities instead? :) We're social beings, the kind of abstraction you're imposing here is neither practical, nor realistic.

I'm not saying that the intrinsic value is the only thing that can matter, I'm just saying that it should override extrinsic values like showing off. A player who is happy because

he

has a item should matter more than a player who can only be happy because he believes others are jealous of him for having the item.

And like I said, you can't just randomly decide to exclude the external factors. This isn't some spherical body in a vacuum, happiness is influenced by great many things. And also you don't get to decide how and why other people feel. Telling what "should" matter for someone else is pointless.

And again, I recognize that, I just don't believe it should be as valuable as the intrinsic value. Think of it like this.

Person A: Wants to have a thing, does not care who else has it.

Person B: Wants a thing, but

only

if Person A doesn't have it.

There are tour possible states, 1. Only A has it, 2. Only B has it, 3. both have it, and 4. neither have it.

Person A can be happy in states 1 and 3, Person B can only be happy in state 2, at least one of them will be sad in every state, but both of them would be sad in state 4.

So if a developer has to choose, I really think that they should choose to go with option 3, because while that may not make Person B happy, I don't believe it's justifiable to support his happiness if it

must

come at the expense of Person A's, whereas Person A is happy to share, as any child is taught to do. If you can't make everyone happy, be satisfied with making the players happy who

aren't

being entitled, greedy jerks about it.

Again theres nothing player A cant have in this game theres also no players (at large) that want something because someone else cant have it.

Everyone can have anything in this game(sadly) so wantimg something because someome wont have it is unrealistic. Furthermore player B wants it because harder to get hence more rare hence less ppl have it, if player A also aquired it in his own merrit player b wouldnt mind.

[zealex.9410]

@"Eramonster.2718" said:While this been going for weeks. A guildie in one of the guild I'm in told us he did raid for the first time yesterday. How excited he was, got 5 bosses down and guildmates(including me) that were online congratulated him :smile: . The brave lad ventured alone with PuGs (strangers :scream:) after enquiring about raids sometime ago. He made the first step :bawling: so proud of him.

I also recalled "Fractal is progressive, to prepare/train players in game by introducing more mechanics as they go higher levels. And if the players want more challenging contents, they have raids." Or something along those lines :sweat_smile:.

Will open a can of worms when players start requesting alternate ways to get shinnies out from WvW, SPvP etc. And ultimately, I don't want to deny those who made effort.

Gratz on your friend ^^

[Grogba.6204]

If two or three hours dedicated to a single activity within an MMO once or twice a week are too much to ask then it's time to look for another game or to get gud. That's too long? Do as the top guilds and clear all wings in under two hours.

Edit: plox nerf LW updates, take to long to play. Let me log in and just get all the rewards instantly.