Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:It's not quitting, it's recognizing what's fair. It's recognizing there are people who enjoy something I don't, and the fact they need to have their own rewards for it.

That's not a fact, it's an opinion. It's a fact that they like that mode, it's not a fact that they need unique rewards for that mode. Players who enjoy PvP should enjoy it just as much without a unique reward specific to it. There should be things that they can chase after through PvP, but PvP doesn't need to be the only way to get that thing. You believe a situation is fair, that does not make it a fact that the situation is fair, it's still just your opinion. You are not "recognizing," you are "expressing a belief."

I find it quite amusing you were just accusing me of not accepting your own different preferences

I fully respect your preferences, so long as you don't seek to impose them onto others.

However don't mistake unrealistic requests that affect the experience of others for personal choices.

Now that is how irony works.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:It's not quitting, it's recognizing what's fair. It's recognizing there are people who enjoy something I don't, and the fact they need to have their own rewards for it.

That's not a fact, it's an opinion. It's a fact that they like that mode, it's not a fact that they need unique rewards for that mode. Players who enjoy PvP should enjoy it just as much without a unique reward specific to it. There should be things that they can chase after

through

PvP, but PvP doesn't need to be the

only

way to get that thing. You

believe

a situation is fair, that does not make it a

fact

that the situation is fair, it's still just your opinion. You are not "recognizing," you are "expressing a belief."

A "belief" that does not contradict the observed reality. Unlike your own strong opinions on what "should" be the motivation and drive of others. The mere fact you used the word "should" as many times as you did in just one paragraph indicates that contradiction, doesn't it?

And what was the word for something that matches the observed reality? Oh, right - fact.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It's not quitting, it's recognizing what's fair. It's recognizing there are people who enjoy something I don't, and the fact they need to have their own rewards for it.

That's not a fact, it's an opinion. It's a fact that they like that mode, it's not a fact that they need unique rewards for that mode. Players who enjoy PvP should enjoy it just as much without a unique reward specific to it. There should be things that they can chase after

through

PvP, but PvP doesn't need to be the

only

way to get that thing. You

believe

a situation is fair, that does not make it a

fact

that the situation is fair, it's still just your opinion. You are not "recognizing," you are "expressing a belief."

A "belief" that does not contradict the observed reality.

No, but neither is it the only valid explanation of that reality, it's one way of looking at things, not the only way.

Unlike your own strong opinions on what "should" be the motivation and drive of others.

Look, if someone can only become motivated by having a reward unique to that situation, then fine, that can be his position, but that does not negate the desire for other players to be able to get that reward someplace else. One of them is going to end up disappointed, and if the two possible outcomes are "only one of the players can get the item through a mode that he enjoys and the other player cannot, " OR "both players can get the item in a mode they enjoy, but one will have to live with his disappointment that the other player gets to be happy too," then I think the latter should be the correct choice every single time. I'm sorry that you don't agree.

And what was the word for something that matches the observed reality? Oh, right - fact.

Again, no, that is not how "facts" work. When multiple explanations can exist for an outcome based on observable data, it does not mean that any one of them gets to be a fact, it just means that more data is needed (or in some cases that there can be no "factual" outcome, and everyone just needs to agree on an opinion).

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:It's not quitting, it's recognizing what's fair. It's recognizing there are people who enjoy something I don't, and the fact they need to have their own rewards for it.

That's not a fact, it's an opinion. It's a fact that they like that mode, it's not a fact that they need unique rewards for that mode. Players who enjoy PvP should enjoy it just as much without a unique reward specific to it. There should be things that they can chase after

through

PvP, but PvP doesn't need to be the

only

way to get that thing. You

believe

a situation is fair, that does not make it a

fact

that the situation is fair, it's still just your opinion. You are not "recognizing," you are "expressing a belief."

A "belief" that does not contradict the observed reality.

No, but neither is it the

only

valid explanation of that reality, it's one way of looking at things, not the

only

way.

At the very least it is a more valid explanation than another who does contradict the observed reality.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Unlike your own strong opinions on what "should" be the motivation and drive of others.

Look, if someone can

only

become motivated by having a reward unique to that situation, then fine, that can be his position, but that does not negate the desire for other players to be able to get that reward someplace else. One of them is going to end up disappointed, and if the two possible outcomes are "only one of the players can get the item through a mode that he enjoys and the other player cannot, " OR "both players can get the item in a mode they enjoy, but one will have to live with his disappointment that the other player gets to be happy too," then I think the latter should be the correct choice every single time. I'm sorry that you don't agree.

I don't agree because the point you making is ridiculously black-or-white. This isn't how the world is, or how people are. Enjoying the gameplay, rewards, competitiveness, these are all factors which all influence everyone. Their influences will vary from player to player obviously, but they are still present nonetheless. It's a fact, regardless if you accept it or not. And you're only ignoring it because it doesn't help your selfish point.

[Teamkiller.4315]

Ohoni do you genuinely enjoy arguing in the forums more than raiding?

I have a confession to make. I very recently started pugging raids. It's fun and enjoyable for me, I still have no plans to make legendary armor ever, and this paragraph has no bearing on the debate whatsoever (except maybe a slight change to my motivations to keep raids mostly the way they are). So don't take the bait.

[STIHL.2489]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Like it happens with fractals?...oh, wait.

I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

So you would need a reward that would be unique to the easy mode for example a stat swap armor that doesn’t use the perfected Envoy armor skin. That way you keep the integrity of the normal mode raid intact.

Which the WvW Armor offers, so, there would be no point to bother to put that into Raids. This whole thing is a waste.

Anyone that just wants the QoL and BiS armor, should move on to WvW or sPvP, and get it that way, forget about Raids.

Anyone that wants the Raid skin, should either Raid, or accept they will never get it any other way, and move on with their life.

If this is a deal breaker for you, as far as the game goes, I sincerely wish you good fortune in finding another game that will placate you, there are quite a few decent ones out there to chose from.

I mean I already got my Legendary PvP armor, so it’s no skin off my back if they change it or not. I just think it’s a good idea to make the stat swap obtainable in multiple ways like the WvW and Pvp. The standard and the elite. I’ll be saving up some more ascended shards for the pvp 2.5 Armor as well.

If they ever become inclined to make some skin-less legendary Armor for PvE, they would be better served to make a OW journey as opposed to mucking with raids.

You may have a point here.

The recipes are there. They would need some sort of achievement collection for the precursor. You could keep the gift of prosperity the same with the provisioner tokens that’s not raid related. Gift of Dedication could also remain the same as well. So really just a collection item to replace the Legendary Insights and you would be in business. Some sort of token system and some achievements to acquire the precursor pieces.

As I see it, its' been long enough for anyone still holding out hope to get a clue that Aney does not care enough about them to do anything at this point. If it a deal breaker, or poisons the game for them, they are better served looking for another game to call home, there is no shortage of other fun games out there.

I mean lets be honest. I know personally this has pissed off enough people to swear never to spend another cent on this game again, if they hold to that. I have no clue. but to be real, if that is how much it bothered someone, it's really time to look at other options then play a game that feels compromised.

If by some train-wreck decision making (which I don't think will happen, but who knows what brilliance my spawn in the account dept) they decided to make some kind of Legendary Armor available by other means, it will most likely do more harm then good anyway, if it is an OW means, the Raiders will feel their special armor has been taken from them, if it's some stupid T4 fractal run, the casuals will feel like it is just yet another slap in the face.

It's better to just let the people that want the stats, deal with WvW or sPvP, to get their skin-less legendary armor, if they are so inclined to have the features associated with it.

For anyone that wants the skin, they can either deal with doing raids, or Anet could put in some reward track system for it, so that it can be earned either through sPvP or WvW, and call this mess done, but, to be honest, the reward track option would just generate massive butthurt by the raiding community.

Some idea are just.. better left alone.. Raids are one of those ideas, they can work really well in games built and designed for them like WoW, but GW2 is not WoW.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Ohoni do you genuinely enjoy arguing in the forums more than raiding?Well, it's not a high bar to pass.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:At the very least it is a more valid explanation than another who does contradict the observed reality.

Agreed, but not relevant to the situation at hand.

I don't agree because the point you making is ridiculously black-or-white. This isn't how the world is, or how people are.

Perhaps, but it is the example you set up. You claimed that the player could not be happy if an alternate method existed which would allow other players to get the item. I see no way to make him happy without it coming at the expense of others, so it's just too bad for that guy.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:Ohoni do you genuinely enjoy arguing in the forums more than raiding?

Yes. Also it's far more convenient, since I can do it while paying attention to other things. I would prefer easy mode raiding though, and find it more productive. Now, if only someone would add that option to the game, we could avoid all this arguing. . .

@STIHL.2489 said:As I see it, its' been long enough for anyone still holding out hope to get a clue that Aney does not care enough about them to do anything at this point. If it a deal breaker, or poisons the game for them, they are better served looking for another game to call home, there is no shortage of other fun games out there.

It took them three years to put raiding in the game, I don't expect them to fix it overnight. If you aren't interested in the discussion, nobody is forcing you to participate.

If by some train-wreck decision making (which I don't think will happen, but who knows what brilliance my spawn in the account dept) they decided to make some kind of Legendary Armor available by other means, it will most likely do more harm then good anyway, if it is an OW means, the Raiders will feel their special armor has been taken from them, if it's some stupid T4 fractal run, the casuals will feel like it is just yet another slap in the face.

If people get upset because other people are allowed to have things, then that's just too bad. ANet can stand to lose their support because there just aren't enough of them to care about. You can't please everyone.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:As I see it, its' been long enough for anyone still holding out hope to get a clue that Aney does not care enough about them to do anything at this point. If it a deal breaker, or poisons the game for them, they are better served looking for another game to call home, there is no shortage of other fun games out there.

It took them three years to put raiding in the game, I don't expect them to

fix

it overnight. If you aren't interested in the discussion, nobody is forcing you to participate.

If by some train-wreck decision making (which I don't think will happen, but who knows what brilliance my spawn in the account dept) they decided to make some kind of Legendary Armor available by other means, it will most likely do more harm then good anyway, if it is an OW means, the Raiders will feel their special armor has been taken from them, if it's some stupid T4 fractal run, the casuals will feel like it is just yet another slap in the face.

If people get upset because other people are allowed to have things, then that's just too bad. ANet can stand to lose their support because there just aren't enough of them to care about. You can't please everyone.

You're right, they can't please everyone, and you know, I am always on your side with this, but maybe it's time to accept that us Casuals, are the ones they have chosen not to please.

[Ohoni.6057]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:As I see it, its' been long enough for anyone still holding out hope to get a clue that Aney does not care enough about them to do anything at this point. If it a deal breaker, or poisons the game for them, they are better served looking for another game to call home, there is no shortage of other fun games out there.

It took them three years to put raiding in the game, I don't expect them to

fix

it overnight. If you aren't interested in the discussion, nobody is forcing you to participate.

If by some train-wreck decision making (which I don't think will happen, but who knows what brilliance my spawn in the account dept) they decided to make some kind of Legendary Armor available by other means, it will most likely do more harm then good anyway, if it is an OW means, the Raiders will feel their special armor has been taken from them, if it's some stupid T4 fractal run, the casuals will feel like it is just yet another slap in the face.

If people get upset because other people are allowed to have things, then that's just too bad. ANet can stand to lose their support because there just aren't enough of them to care about. You can't please everyone.

You're right, they can't please everyone, and you know, I am always on your side with this, but maybe it's time to accept that us Casuals, are the ones they have chosen not to please.

That wouldn't make sense though, since they can please more of us at once than they can the people who only want to keep shinies away from others.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:As I see it, its' been long enough for anyone still holding out hope to get a clue that Aney does not care enough about them to do anything at this point. If it a deal breaker, or poisons the game for them, they are better served looking for another game to call home, there is no shortage of other fun games out there.

It took them three years to put raiding in the game, I don't expect them to

fix

it overnight. If you aren't interested in the discussion, nobody is forcing you to participate.

If by some train-wreck decision making (which I don't think will happen, but who knows what brilliance my spawn in the account dept) they decided to make some kind of Legendary Armor available by other means, it will most likely do more harm then good anyway, if it is an OW means, the Raiders will feel their special armor has been taken from them, if it's some stupid T4 fractal run, the casuals will feel like it is just yet another slap in the face.

If people get upset because other people are allowed to have things, then that's just too bad. ANet can stand to lose their support because there just aren't enough of them to care about. You can't please everyone.

You're right, they can't please everyone, and you know, I am always on your side with this, but maybe it's time to accept that us Casuals, are the ones they have chosen not to please.

That wouldn't make sense though, since they can please more of us at once than they can the people who only want to keep shinies away from others.

I totally agree with you man, I am on your side, it does not make sense they would not do this, in fact, it's downright a shame they did not do something like this from the start, not like they didn't have 100 levels of Fractals to build from to get ideas how to make this work, but things are what they are, the dev's themselves have even come forward and said they have no plans to do something like this.

Raids are going to be the way they are, and Anet is OK with the fact this will upset some of their players, I have always been on your side, and this time is no different, but, maybe it's time to realize that.. well.. we are the ones that they don't feel are important enough to please.

Truth Hurts, man. I can't say I will ever be happy about it.

[Turin.6921]

@STIHL.2489 said:You're right, they can't please everyone, and you know, I am always on your side with this, but maybe it's time to accept that us Casuals, are the ones they have chosen not to please.@Ohoni.6057 said:That wouldn't make sense though, since they can please more of us at once than they can the people who only want to keep shinies away from others.

They way you are going Umpa Lumpas will appear and unleash the squirrels at you.

[Ohoni.6057]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:As I see it, its' been long enough for anyone still holding out hope to get a clue that Aney does not care enough about them to do anything at this point. If it a deal breaker, or poisons the game for them, they are better served looking for another game to call home, there is no shortage of other fun games out there.

It took them three years to put raiding in the game, I don't expect them to

fix

it overnight. If you aren't interested in the discussion, nobody is forcing you to participate.

If by some train-wreck decision making (which I don't think will happen, but who knows what brilliance my spawn in the account dept) they decided to make some kind of Legendary Armor available by other means, it will most likely do more harm then good anyway, if it is an OW means, the Raiders will feel their special armor has been taken from them, if it's some stupid T4 fractal run, the casuals will feel like it is just yet another slap in the face.

If people get upset because other people are allowed to have things, then that's just too bad. ANet can stand to lose their support because there just aren't enough of them to care about. You can't please everyone.

You're right, they can't please everyone, and you know, I am always on your side with this, but maybe it's time to accept that us Casuals, are the ones they have chosen not to please.

That wouldn't make sense though, since they can please more of us at once than they can the people who only want to keep shinies away from others.

I totally agree with you man, I am on your side, it does not make sense they would not do this, in fact, it's downright a shame they did not do something like this from the start, not like they didn't have 100 levels of Fractals to build from to get ideas how to make this work, but things are what they are, the dev's themselves have even come forward and said they have no plans to do something like this.

Raids are going to be the way they are, and Anet is OK with the fact this will upset some of their players, I have always been on your side, and this time is no different, but, maybe it's time to realize that.. well.. we are the ones that they don't feel are important enough to please.

Truth Hurts, man. I can't say I will ever be happy about it.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't quit, even when all hope seems lost.

@Turin.6921 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You're right, they can't please everyone, and you know, I am always on your side with this, but maybe it's time to accept that us Casuals, are the ones they have chosen not to please.@Ohoni.6057 said:That wouldn't make sense though, since they can please more of us at once than they can the people who only want to keep shinies away from others.

They way you are going Umpa Lumpas will appear and unleash the squirrels at you.

They use Quaggans here.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:I understand where you're coming from, but I don't quit, even when all hope seems lost.

Should apply this line of thinking to Vale Guardian :thinking:

[Ohoni.6057]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I understand where you're coming from, but I don't quit, even when all hope seems lost.

Should apply this line of thinking to Vale Guardian :thinking:

Like I said, I don't enjoy the existing raids, they are too stressful. I still play them until the end of the attempt, succeed or fail, but I've decided that going back would not be a productive use of my time. When they make a version I would enjoy, a less stressful version, then I will play that until I clear out the stuff I want.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I understand where you're coming from, but I don't quit, even when all hope seems lost.

Should apply this line of thinking to Vale Guardian :thinking:

Like I said, I don't

enjoy

the existing raids, they are too stressful. I still play them until the end of the attempt, succeed or fail, but I've decided that going

back

would not be a productive use of my time. When they make a version I

would

enjoy, a less stressful version, then I will play that until I clear out the stuff I want.

Don't quit until you find it fun. I'd wager it's less futile a goal than easy mode raids with envoy armor xD.

[Brynioch.1873]

@STIHL.2489 said:As I see it, its' been long enough for anyone still holding out hope to get a clue that Aney does not care enough about them to do anything at this point. If it a deal breaker, or poisons the game for them, they are better served looking for another game to call home, there is no shortage of other fun games out there.

I mean lets be honest. I know personally this has pissed off enough people to swear never to spend another cent on this game again, if they hold to that. I have no clue. but to be real, if that is how much it bothered someone, it's really time to look at other options then play a game that feels compromised.

If by some train-wreck decision making (which I don't think will happen, but who knows what brilliance my spawn in the account dept) they decided to make some kind of Legendary Armor available by other means, it will most likely do more harm then good anyway, if it is an OW means, the Raiders will feel their special armor has been taken from them, if it's some stupid T4 fractal run, the casuals will feel like it is just yet another slap in the face.

It's better to just let the people that want the stats, deal with WvW or sPvP, to get their skin-less legendary armor, if they are so inclined to have the features associated with it.

For anyone that wants the skin, they can either deal with doing raids, or Anet could put in some reward track system for it, so that it can be earned either through sPvP or WvW, and call this mess done, but, to be honest, the reward track option would just generate massive kitten by the raiding community.

Some idea are just.. better left alone.. Raids are one of those ideas, they can work really well in games built and designed for them like WoW, but GW2 is not WoW.

So it's ok for WvW and sPvP to have their special skins but raids are not because PvE 'casuals' are a special kind of people that needs everything handed on a silver plate that has PvE tagged on something?It is about the skin (like everything in GW2 is about skins, Fashion Wars doesn't come without reasons), not the item color. There was not a single raider complaining about the addition of legendary armor to WvW and sPvP. And there won't be anyone complaining about an legendary armor in open world unless it has the perfected envoy skin. The 'train-wreck decision making' already happend and they added legendary armor to WvW and sPvP. Yet no complains.

Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. But raiders are special and evil.

Raids work well in GW2. Just not for everyone.But even in WoW where you are forced into raids with gear and story progression only available through raids at a certain point and the most easy and effortless raid mode they barely reach above 70% raid participation. That tells a lot about the disturbed world view of some of those 'casuals'.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:I have my normal mode. It is not hard if you actually ever bothered to play it correctly.

It's not too hard for you, and it's not too hard for me if I really put in the effort, but I would not enjoy putting in the effort, so it

is

too hard for me to enjoy, and that means it

is

too hard for it to be an activity I will play

for fun.

That is a fact, take it or leave it.

It is still normal mode. Stop trying to imply something to readers that only exists in your mind and not in reality.

Just look at the PoF meta events, eg Desolation and compare it to HoT metas and tell me with a straight face that the population difference is not rewards. Easy raids will be deserted fast with appropriate rewards.

If it's deserted fast then the rewards would not be appropriate. Again, if you're using the existing raids as the max limit, and saying that easy mode would need to be a tiny fraction of that, remember that I'm in favor of raising the loot payouts of the normal raids too, wouldn't that be nice?

Appropriate for the difficulty in comparision of the rest of the game. Yes they will be deserted fast. Just like T1 fractals. You can't just increase the rewards everywhere and hope the game economy doesn't crash. Casuals are hit the most by reward increases as they don't profit from them 100% while the normal materials are going down lowering their income.

Legendary armor is better put into open world that your raid easy mode.

Maybe, and I've be fine with that, but I also want easy mode raids to play. I want both of the things, not just one.

But raiders are selfish and greedy for not wanting to share their loot. Maybe some self-reflection would help.

@STIHL.2489 said:

I totally agree with you man, I am on your side, it does not make sense they would not do this, in fact, it's downright a shame they did not do something like this from the start, not like they didn't have 100 levels of Fractals to build from to get ideas how to make this work, but things are what they are, the dev's themselves have even come forward and said they have no plans to do something like this.

Raids are going to be the way they are, and Anet is OK with the fact this will upset some of their players, I have always been on your side, and this time is no different, but, maybe it's time to realize that.. well.. we are the ones that they don't feel are important enough to please.

Truth Hurts, man. I can't say I will ever be happy about it.

Maybe it's time to accept that you are in fact part of a small minority and the majority just doesn't care about instanced content in general in this game.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I understand where you're coming from, but I don't quit, even when all hope seems lost.

Should apply this line of thinking to Vale Guardian :thinking:

Like I said, I don't

enjoy

the existing raids, they are too stressful. I still play them until the end of the attempt, succeed or fail, but I've decided that going

back

would not be a productive use of my time. When they make a version I

would

enjoy, a less stressful version, then I will play that until I clear out the stuff I want.

Don't

quit

until you find it fun. I'd wager it's less futile a goal than easy mode raids with envoy armor xD.

You would be wrong. There is no goal more futile than "play the current raids until I enjoy it." As unlikely as you may think an easy mode may be, I guarantee you that enjoying the current version is even more so.

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil.

Anyone trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone.

It is still normal mode. Stop trying to imply something to readers that only exists in your mind and not in reality.

All difficulty is subjective. The name is irrelevant to what it is, and while raiders seem to vacillate between "too easy" and "the most hardcore content in the game deserving of special hardcore rewards that plebs can't have," The consensus does seem to be that raids are mostly very hard relative to the rest of the game.

Appropriate for the difficulty in comparision of the rest of the game. Yes they will be deserted fast. Just like T1 fractals. You can't just increase the rewards everywhere and hope the game economy doesn't crash.

The economy didn't crash for Auric Basin or Istan that can be farmed every few hours, so why would it crash if easy mode raids rewarded comparably once a week?

But raiders are selfish and greedy for not wanting to share their loot. Maybe some self-reflection would help.

Agreed.

Maybe it's time to accept that you are in fact part of a small minority and the majority just doesn't care about instanced content in general in this game.

Source?

[STIHL.2489]

Raid are and will remain a pitiful addition to this game.. with that said.. there is no point in trying to make something decent out of the shit storm they are.

[Vinceman.4572]

Not having raids added to the game would have been the worse decision.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Vinceman.4572 said:Not having raids added to the game would have been the worse decision.

How so?

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:Of course it will create an uproar in the raiding community. Make the WvW and sPvP exclusive skins available through other content and you will see the same reaction. >But raiders are special and evil.

Anyone

trying to gatekeep their own special shineys from others who would enjoy them is "special" and "evil." It's just not a good look, on anyone.

They can play the content which rewards them and enjoy them afterwards.

It is still normal mode. Stop trying to imply something to readers that only exists in your mind and not in reality.

All difficulty is subjective. The name is irrelevant to what it is, and while raiders seem to vacillate between "too easy" and "the most hardcore content in the game deserving of special hardcore rewards that plebs can't have," The consensus does seem to be that raids are

mostly

very hard relative to the rest of the game.

Nope. We already have a hardmode in form of challenge motes. It's normal mode. There is nothing subjective about given facts.There is no consenus about the difficulty.

Appropriate for the difficulty in comparision of the rest of the game. Yes they will be deserted fast. Just like T1 fractals. You can't just increase the rewards everywhere and hope the game economy doesn't crash.

The economy didn't crash for Auric Basin or Istan that can be farmed every few hours, so why would it crash if easy mode raids rewarded comparably once a week?

It did. Ectoplasm and T6 mats prices went down about 66%. And it mostly affects casuals.

But raiders are selfish and greedy for not wanting to share their loot. Maybe some self-reflection would help.

Agreed.

Maybe it's time to accept that you are in fact part of a small minority and the majority just doesn't care about instanced content in general in this game.

Source?

We already had dungeon completion rates in one of those threads. GW2efficiency completion raids don't even reach 50% for dungeons and fractals in the 3000h+ brackets and it tends to attract the more hardcore players. The real numbers will be worse.

Also again LFR on other games works because of the automated system which we won't get here. And even than a dungeon and raid focused game with this very system AND forced story progression through raids barely reach over 70% raid participation and you think the majority in this game will play your easy mode. Sure.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:They can play the content which rewards them and enjoy them afterwards.

I have no idea what your point is trying to be here.

Nope. We already have a hardmode in form of challenge motes. It's normal mode. There is nothing subjective about given facts.There is no consenus about the difficulty.

The consensus is that they are harder than most other content in the game. Don't be disingenuous, it does you no favors.

It did. Ectoplasm and T6 mats prices went down about 66%. And it mostly affects casuals.

That sounds good, falling material prices is always a good thing.

We already had dungeon completion rates in one of those threads. GW2efficiency completion raids don't even reach 50% for dungeons and fractals in the 3000h+ brackets and it tends to attract the more hardcore players. The real numbers will be worse.

Efficiency dungeon completion rates are irrelevant to the situation at hand.

Also again LFR on other games works because of the automated system which we won't get here. And even than a dungeon and raid focused game with this very system AND forced story progression through raids barely reach over 70% raid participation and you think the majority in this game will play your easy mode. Sure.

I've never claimed that everyone would play them, at least not regularly. That's not my goalpost. I believe that they can expand it so that most could play it, and if that's the case, I believe that many more would, more than play it currently. If the current raid populations justify supporting raids at all, then the expected easy mode populations would more than justify supporting that mode.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vinceman.4572 said:Not having raids added to the game would have been the worse decision.I wouldn't be so sure. I seriously doubt they had a net positive impact on the game.

@"Miellyn.6847" said:We already had dungeon completion rates in one of those threads. GW2efficiency completion raids don't even reach 50% for dungeons and fractals in the 3000h+ brackets and it tends to attract the more hardcore players. The real numbers will be worse.As it has been pointed out already, no, we don't have those numbers. We only have numbers for doing all the paths, which is not the same. For example, i'm pretty sure completion rates for CoF p1 were much higher than for all 3. And completion rates for AC were around 60% even in the "all players" bracket.If you want to compare those numbers, compare dungeon completions to doing whole wings.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:They can play the content which rewards them and enjoy them afterwards.

I have no idea what your point is trying to be here.

Exclusive rewards are good for the game and if you want them play the corresponding content. We had this like 2000 times already.

Nope. We already have a hardmode in form of challenge motes. It's normal mode. There is nothing subjective about given facts.There is no consenus about the difficulty.

The consensus is that they are harder than most other content in the game. Don't be disingenuous, it does you no favors.

For players that never tried it. Most players that actually started raiding saw that they aren't as hard as many players claim them to be. There is no consenus.

It did. Ectoplasm and T6 mats prices went down about 66%. And it mostly affects casuals.

That sounds good, falling material prices is always a good thing.

For hardcore players yes. For casuals no, selling materials is a huge part of their ingame income. Most liquid gold rewards are placed in harder content. Fractals, raids, sPvP ATs.

We already had dungeon completion rates in one of those threads. GW2efficiency completion raids don't even reach 50% for dungeons and fractals in the 3000h+ brackets and it tends to attract the more hardcore players. The real numbers will be worse.

Efficiency dungeon completion rates are irrelevant to the situation at hand.

Yes they are relevant. GW2efficiency shows the interest of manual instanced group content. And it is not that good to begin with.

Also again LFR on other games works because of the automated system which we won't get here. And even than a dungeon and raid focused game with this very system AND forced story progression through raids barely reach over 70% raid participation and you think the majority in this game will play your easy mode. Sure.

I've never claimed that

everyone

would play them, at least not regularly. That's not my goalpost. I believe that they can expand it so that most

could

play it, and if that's the case, I believe that many more would, more than play it currently. If the current raid populations justify supporting raids at all, then the expected easy mode populations would

more than

justify supporting that mode.

You claim the majority will play it. When a game with a focus on your very goal and extra incentive (gear/story progress) doesn't even reach 3/4 of it's playerbase how will a game with an open world focus and no real incentive for most players (legendaries are still niche even if you try to deny it) ever achieve 50% or a real replay value? And you have to substract the players that already play raids. It seems way more likely that your group is even smaller than the current raid population.It's pretty easy to justify challenging group content. It didn't exist before and your group has the rest of the game to play with.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:We already had dungeon completion rates in one of those threads. GW2efficiency completion raids don't even reach 50% for dungeons and fractals in the 3000h+ brackets and it tends to attract the more hardcore players. The real numbers will be worse.As it has been pointed out already, no, we don't have those numbers. We only have numbers for doing

all

the paths, which is not the same. For example, i'm pretty sure completion rates for CoF p1 were much higher than for all 3. And completion rates for AC were around 60% even in the "all players" bracket.If you want to compare those numbers, compare dungeon completions to doing whole wings.

AC is different as it is the only dungeon that is still relevant for current content. If you want to play a healer you are forced to play AC as it is the only place in the game where you can aquire the monk rune unless you count mystic forge gamble as a source but getting 6 monk runes could take a while.