Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[STIHL.2489]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Like it happens with fractals?...oh, wait.

I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

So you would need a reward that would be unique to the easy mode for example a stat swap armor that doesn’t use the perfected Envoy armor skin. That way you keep the integrity of the normal mode raid intact.

Which the WvW Armor offers, so, there would be no point to bother to put that into Raids. This whole thing is a waste.

Anyone that just wants the QoL and BiS armor, should move on to WvW or sPvP, and get it that way, forget about Raids.

Anyone that wants the Raid skin, should either Raid, or accept they will never get it any other way, and move on with their life.

If this is a deal breaker for you, as far as the game goes, I sincerely wish you good fortune in finding another game that will placate you, there are quite a few decent ones out there to chose from.

[Tyson.5160]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Like it happens with fractals?...oh, wait.

I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

So you would need a reward that would be unique to the easy mode for example a stat swap armor that doesn’t use the perfected Envoy armor skin. That way you keep the integrity of the normal mode raid intact.

Which the WvW Armor offers, so, there would be no point to bother to put that into Raids. This whole thing is a waste.

Anyone that just wants the QoL and BiS armor, should move on to WvW or sPvP, and get it that way, forget about Raids.

Anyone that wants the Raid skin, should either Raid, or accept they will never get it any other way, and move on with their life.

If this is a deal breaker for you, as far as the game goes, I sincerely wish you good fortune in finding another game that will placate you, there are quite a few decent ones out there to chose from.

I mean I already got my Legendary PvP armor, so it’s no skin off my back if they change it or not. I just think it’s a good idea to make the stat swap obtainable in multiple ways like the WvW and Pvp. The standard and the elite. I’ll be saving up some more ascended shards for the pvp 2.5 Armor as well.

[zealex.9410]

@nia.4725 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Like it happens with fractals?...oh, wait.

I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

I don't think many normal mode raiders will go play easy mode and forget about normal mode. Because easy mode could give the same rewards, yeah, but in less quantity. So, if I can do normal mode and get my shinies in 10 weeks, why would I go to easy mode if that one is going to give me mmy shinies in 20 weeks? It doesn't make sense. Some people who don't like raids at all could do that, ofc, because they would care more about not playing normal mode than they care about getting the shinies quickly, but those would be a tiny minority. Players are impatient, they want their things quick and fast.

And also, I think, easy mode would end up having a bad or at least inferior reputation so I don't think normal mode raiders would want to go into that "inferior", "braindead", "full of noobs" game mode. I'm not saying that easy mode would be full of noobs, inferior or braindead, I'm just saying how I think the raiding community would react about easy mode. Just predicting things.

Its still alot less effort both in group requirements and personal skill. Time soend doesnt necessarily balance it. If an easy mode should happen it should not have sfuff like the legendary armor available in it.

[STIHL.2489]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Like it happens with fractals?...oh, wait.

I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

So you would need a reward that would be unique to the easy mode for example a stat swap armor that doesn’t use the perfected Envoy armor skin. That way you keep the integrity of the normal mode raid intact.

Which the WvW Armor offers, so, there would be no point to bother to put that into Raids. This whole thing is a waste.

Anyone that just wants the QoL and BiS armor, should move on to WvW or sPvP, and get it that way, forget about Raids.

Anyone that wants the Raid skin, should either Raid, or accept they will never get it any other way, and move on with their life.

If this is a deal breaker for you, as far as the game goes, I sincerely wish you good fortune in finding another game that will placate you, there are quite a few decent ones out there to chose from.

I mean I already got my Legendary PvP armor, so it’s no skin off my back if they change it or not. I just think it’s a good idea to make the stat swap obtainable in multiple ways like the WvW and Pvp. The standard and the elite. I’ll be saving up some more ascended shards for the pvp 2.5 Armor as well.

If they ever become inclined to make some skin-less legendary Armor for PvE, they would be better served to make a OW journey as opposed to mucking with raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Hume.2876 said:It's not theoretical - i was around in WoW for the advent of LFR. Absolutely murdered the game.. Some of the worst content you have every experienced. People sign up - spam some buttons in a 'raid'. They got loot with the same skins as the raids. Established raiders quit - but here is the thing - the free loot got boring for the people that clamored for it. So the player base cratered. Lots of people were thrust into 'crappy raids' to go after the best PvE loot and it was not a fun experience for them.

And yet, WoW is still going extremely strong for a nearly fifteen year old computer game. Better than all of its competitors, certainly. It's tricky to argue that it would have had less player drop-off if only they'd done what you wanted instead.

Ask your self - how is a 'practice mode' fun without good loot. And if does have good loot - are people going to do the hard mode?

Whether easy mode is fun or not depends on the content, not the loot. Now players aren't likely to repeat any content, regardless of how fun, if it doesn't have loot worth the time and effort needed to complete it, but meeting that standard isn't difficult.

As for easy mode competing with hard, so long as hard offers better loot, and it probably should, there would be no conflict.

You have to think about the player experience not just the loot tables. Is it a good experience to roll through raids? Is it somehow different then they get with world bosses?Raiding is designed to bring a DIFFERENT experience for the raiders. High level - difficulty gated content.. Mission accomplished.

But not every player enjoys that experience, but still wants to experience the raid content.

If an easy mode would not interest you, that's ok. You can and probably should continue to play the normal mode. But what you enjoy is not what everyone else enjoys, and there are likely plenty of players to support a well executed easy mode.

[Tyson.5160]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Like it happens with fractals?...oh, wait.

I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

So you would need a reward that would be unique to the easy mode for example a stat swap armor that doesn’t use the perfected Envoy armor skin. That way you keep the integrity of the normal mode raid intact.

Which the WvW Armor offers, so, there would be no point to bother to put that into Raids. This whole thing is a waste.

Anyone that just wants the QoL and BiS armor, should move on to WvW or sPvP, and get it that way, forget about Raids.

Anyone that wants the Raid skin, should either Raid, or accept they will never get it any other way, and move on with their life.

If this is a deal breaker for you, as far as the game goes, I sincerely wish you good fortune in finding another game that will placate you, there are quite a few decent ones out there to chose from.

I mean I already got my Legendary PvP armor, so it’s no skin off my back if they change it or not. I just think it’s a good idea to make the stat swap obtainable in multiple ways like the WvW and Pvp. The standard and the elite. I’ll be saving up some more ascended shards for the pvp 2.5 Armor as well.

If they ever become inclined to make some skin-less legendary Armor for PvE, they would be better served to make a OW journey as opposed to mucking with raids.

You may have a point here.

The recipes are there. They would need some sort of achievement collection for the precursor. You could keep the gift of prosperity the same with the provisioner tokens that’s not raid related. Gift of Dedication could also remain the same as well. So really just a collection item to replace the Legendary Insights and you would be in business. Some sort of token system and some achievements to acquire the precursor pieces.

[nia.4725]

@zealex.9410 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Like it happens with fractals?...oh, wait.

I understand your idea but I find an issue here. The devs already said that their main concern about hard mode (repeatable) is splitting the playerbase between the difficulty tiers. If we got a fractal-like system, wouldn't it do that? Split the playerbase. Current raiders would never do easy mode, so new raiders would never get help from experienced people. Easy mode raiders would progress to normal mode just for the rewards, since normal mode would give more shinies -and no game designer wants rewards to be the only reason why people play certain content. Because that leads to the player stopping playing when they get the reward.

So, I think, easy mode would gradually lose players , those that move to normal mode. But will easy mode keep getting new players? I'm not quite sure. Are raids appealing to enough players for easy mode to never get depopulated? I'm not quite sure. Will those who just like easy mode and are not interested in normal mode be enough to keep easy mode alive? I'm not quite sure.

If the "Easy mode" provides access to the same rewards as normal mode then normal mode players WILL play the easy mode. If we don't want to affect the normal mode players at all, then the "Easy mode" needs to have separate rewards. The fantasy that an "easy mode" would bring more players to "normal mode" is just that, a fantasy, the opposite is what is bound to happen, normal mode losing players.

If the "Easy mode" doesn't provide access to the same rewards and the rewards it does provide are terrible then we go to Arah Story Mode problem. T1 Fractals are essential for all Legendary Weapon Precursor collections and I strongly believe that's the reason T1 Fractals even have people running them. In a sense they offer a unique reward that although it's also available in higher tiers, it IS much easier to get on T1.

I don't think many normal mode raiders will go play easy mode and forget about normal mode. Because easy mode could give the same rewards, yeah, but in less quantity. So, if I can do normal mode and get my shinies in 10 weeks, why would I go to easy mode if that one is going to give me mmy shinies in 20 weeks? It doesn't make sense. Some people who don't like raids at all could do that, ofc, because they would care more about not playing normal mode than they care about getting the shinies quickly, but those would be a tiny minority. Players are impatient, they want their things quick and fast.

And also, I think, easy mode would end up having a bad or at least inferior reputation so I don't think normal mode raiders would want to go into that "inferior", "braindead", "full of noobs" game mode. I'm not saying that easy mode would be full of noobs, inferior or braindead, I'm just saying how I think the raiding community would react about easy mode. Just predicting things.

Its still alot less effort both in group requirements and personal skill. Time soend doesnt necessarily balance it. If an easy mode should happen it should not have sfuff like the legendary armor available in it.

Ofc, it is a lot less effort. Almost no effort at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm against essy mode, my post was only trying to say that easy mode won't get normal mode players. And as I said previously, if it was going to be implemented it should not give a legendary armor. It should give something like the Envoy I, ascended quality, or even less.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Hume.2876 said:Ask your self - how is a 'practice mode' fun without good loot. And if does have good loot - are people going to do the hard mode?

Whether easy mode is fun or not depends on the

content,

not the loot. Now players aren't likely to

repeat

any content, regardless of how fun, if it doesn't have loot worth the time and effort needed to complete it, but meeting that standard isn't difficult.

As for easy mode competing with hard, so long as hard offers

better

loot, and it probably should, there would be no conflict.Hard content has a much higher replay value even without many rewards. It is a problem of easy content as people get bored quickly. There are many people that still play raids even if they have all rewards from them or play them multiple times a week even the real loot has as a weekly lockout.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Dreddo.9865" said:You quoted me a dev post in reddit dated November 2016 while we are on ...May 2018.

The daily recommended T3 is not advertised in the T3 LFG. People often create groups that advertise "t4+recs" or simply "recs" in T4 LFG. It's been like that for ages.

Then you don't see many people in T3 nowadays simply because they have advanced in T4. Only newcomers past briefly through first two tiers then having a short break in T3 to either adapt to the more complex mechanics or accumulate Agony Resistance (and an Ascended Armor Set / Trinkets). You will always have a number of people entering the game and advancing through fractal tiers. Some even prefer to do T3 to avoid the hassle in some cases, so every tier has available parties.

Frankly, If you are really into fractals you should already know all these.

...all the posts about T3 on the LFG is about daily recommended. I posted a developer post from the time they added a new reward (T3 daily recommended) which made T3 viable as a choice, as opposed to nobody running it. The only reason T3 is being run is the daily recommended and it's rather obvious by comparing how many were running it before and how many started running it after. It's not really rocket science.

Some even prefer to do T3 to avoid the hassle in some cases, so every tier has available parties.

To re-iterate one more time. That's the thing, T3 did NOT have available parties before an extra/unique reward was added to it. So all the arguments about players using it for training, or to avoid the hassle are a bit moot and void.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Hume.2876 said:Ask your self - how is a 'practice mode' fun without good loot. And if does have good loot - are people going to do the hard mode?

Whether easy mode is fun or not depends on the

content,

not the loot. Now players aren't likely to

repeat

any content, regardless of how fun, if it doesn't have loot worth the time and effort needed to complete it, but meeting that standard isn't difficult.

As for easy mode competing with hard, so long as hard offers

better

loot, and it probably should, there would be no conflict.Hard content has a much higher replay value even without many rewards. It is a problem of easy content as people get bored quickly. There are many people that still play raids even if they have all rewards from them or play them multiple times a week even the real loot has as a weekly lockout.

No, it doesn't. It has high replay value to you because you enjoy it, that's fine, but it has zero playability value to those who don't enjoy it. If the easy mode they make is pretty fun, it will have no less replayability to those that are suited to it than normal raids have to players like you.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:And as for t3, it was always a problematic tier. The people that have problem with difficulty keep sticking to t1/t2, and t3 is (and always was) filled only with those that can't do t4s yet. It's because the difficulty jump between t3 and t4 is much smaller than between t2 and t3, but the reward jump from t3 to t4 is really, really significant. Basically, if you can do t3 and feel ok there, there's no real reason not to move up to t4. At worst you'd just be skipping some of the most difficult fractals. But if you have problems with t4 difficulty, t3 willl likely be equally unfun to you.

And still there is zero evidence to point out that the lower difficulties are filled with those that can't do T4s yet and not players looking for the extra rewards. Rewards that are not available in T4 (daily recommended). Also a quick look on LFG shows that the vast majority of entries is about those dailies anyway. The only part that has more entries is T4

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Hume.2876 said:Ask your self - how is a 'practice mode' fun without good loot. And if does have good loot - are people going to do the hard mode?

Whether easy mode is fun or not depends on the

content,

not the loot. Now players aren't likely to

repeat

any content, regardless of how fun, if it doesn't have loot worth the time and effort needed to complete it, but meeting that standard isn't difficult.

As for easy mode competing with hard, so long as hard offers

better

loot, and it probably should, there would be no conflict.Hard content has a much higher replay value even without many rewards. It is a problem of easy content as people get bored quickly. There are many people that still play raids even if they have all rewards from them or play them multiple times a week even the real loot has as a weekly lockout.

No, it doesn't. It has high replay value

to you

because you

enjoy

it, that's fine, but it has zero playability value to those who don't enjoy it. If the easy mode they make is pretty fun, it will have no less replayability to those that are suited to it than normal raids have to players like you.

That's still a lie. You can play content you don't enjoy. You actively decide you don't want to play the content and exclude yourself from the rewards. It has the same playability for everyone. But the replayability on the other hand is much lower in an easy mode with appropriate rewards.

I don't enjoy WvW and still I do the dailies to collect some progress for Gifts of Battle because I enjoy some of the legendary weapons, especially those with collections.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:That's still a lie. You can play content you don't enjoy.

Yes, but I can't enjoy it, and if you aren't enjoying yourself in a game then you're doing something wrong.

You actively decide you don't want to play the content and exclude yourself from the rewards. It has the same playability for everyone. But the replayability on the other hand is much lower in an easy mode with appropriate rewards.

That's not true at all. By your same argument, easy modes are just as replayable as hard ones, all that would differ is how much you enjoy replaying them. You seem to enjoy replaying hard content more than easy. That's fine, that's you. I prefer replaying easy content rather than hard. I have different interests than you because we are different people.

That's ok though.

You would have your hard mode, and could replay it all you like. I would have my easy mode and could replay it all I like. We would each be happy with our choices. The only problem with the current state of things is that you have the version that would allow you to do that, and I, as of yet, do not.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:It's T3... not T4. I guess all those that wanted to train waited for that daily reward, and only train for the current daily, while those that find the difficulty of T3 the most comfortable also only play now that the daily exists. Your entire argument of using tiers for training is flawed. It's not really rocket science.

I'm not really sure what point you're making about Fractals, but, if people don't actually want to do T3 Fractals, then wouldn't the best solution be to not

have

T3 Fractals?

@"Feanor.2358" said:It's an entirely valid position. But it is hardly a reason to blame others, or the game itself, for their own choices.

Who is? Speaking for myself, I only blame the game for not offering me any of the choices that I would want to pick (much like I would blame McDonalds for only offering Coke, Sprite, and Dr. Pepper but no root beers), and I blame other players who choose to fight

against

them offering those options, rather than to

help

their fellow players achieve what they want to achieve.

My choices are my own, but when the only choices available are "bad," and "worse," it's only reasonable to ask for better options to choose from.

Or to move on. The better options you seek are highly unrealistic and extremely unfair. Hence the strong opposition. Forgive me for not willing to ruin my own experience just so you don't need to step 1 millimetre off your comfort zone.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:Forgive me for not willing to ruin my own experience just so you don't need to step 1 millimetre off your comfort zone.Then it's good that the easy mode suggestion doesn't ask you to do anything of that sort. Normal mode would be unaffected, after all.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I'm not really sure what point you're making about Fractals, but, if people don't actually want to do T3 Fractals, then wouldn't the best solution be to not have T3 Fractals?

An argument that was presented earlier in the thread, and I replied to, was that Fractal "multiple tiers" are used for training and by players who find it "comfortable" to play T3 instead of moving forward to T4. Yet, when there was no extra reward in T3, it was a barren wasteland, and after they added it, T3 became part of the game again. Meaning, it was the extra reward that revitalized it and not the fact that there was a difficulty tier. In a very similar way, T1 and T2 also have extra rewards (daily recommended) plus the legendary precursor achievements can be done solo in T1, not requiring the extra hassle by doing them on T4.Remove those extra rewards and we'd see how many would stay playing the lower tiers "for fun" and "for training". T3 is such an indicator, but T2 for example isn't exactly massively popular either.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:That's still a lie. You can play content you don't enjoy.

Yes, but I can't enjoy it, and if you aren't enjoying yourself in a game then you're doing something wrong.

You actively decide you don't want to play the content and exclude yourself from the rewards. It has the same playability for everyone. But the replayability on the other hand is much lower in an easy mode with appropriate rewards.

That's not true at all. By your same argument, easy modes are just as replayable as hard ones, all that would differ is how much you

enjoy

replaying them. You seem to enjoy replaying hard content more than easy. That's fine, that's you. I prefer replaying easy content rather than hard. I have different interests than you because we are different people.

That's ok though.

You would have your hard mode, and could replay it all you like. I would have my easy mode and could replay it all I like. We would each be happy with our choices. The only problem with the current state of things is that you have the version that would allow you to do that, and I, as of yet, do not.

Thats reduced playability, not zero.

I have my normal mode. It is not hard if you actually ever bothered to play it correctly.

Just look at the PoF meta events, eg Desolation and compare it to HoT metas and tell me with a straight face that the population difference is not rewards. Easy raids will be deserted fast with appropriate rewards.Legendary armor is better put into open world that your raid easy mode.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Forgive me for not willing to ruin my own experience just so you don't need to step 1 millimetre off your comfort zone.Then it's good that the easy mode suggestion doesn't ask you to do anything of that sort. Normal mode would be unaffected, after all.

The problem is, I don't believe that. You fail to convince me, and since I'm not the only one opposing, you fail to convince others, too.Note that I don't oppose every request. The one I actually think won't be affecting the normal mode I supported. So I'd suggest you look for the problem on your side. Mostly in the department of unrealistic expectations.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:Or to move on. The better options you seek are highly unrealistic and extremely unfair. Hence the strong opposition.

They're not at all unrealistic or unfair, they just trigger gatekeepers who want to keep the shinies to themselves. They declare "this is ours, you cannot have it unless you become like us!" I find that attitude "highly unrealistic and extremely unfair." Having a lot of opposition on the raid forum is not unexpected, but it in no way indicates that they are making valid points.

Forgive me for not willing to ruin my own experience just so you don't need to step 1 millimetre off your comfort zone.

Do you accept that I could never enjoy raids as you do, and are just content with me never enjoying them so long as you get to enjoy them unchallenged, or do you believe, despite the many times I've explained myself, that "if only I gave it a shot" I could come to love the existing raids just as much as you do?

This should not be a trick question, if you've been at all paying attention.

And the existing raids will be left 100% intact, so your enjoyment should not diminish by even a tiny fraction, yet it would add enjoyment to a great many players.

The problem is, I don't believe that. You fail to convince me, and since I'm not the only one opposing, you fail to convince others, too.

You're just overly suspicious. Don't be. It's easy. If I can come to love the normal mode raids as they are, then you should be able to be less suspicious, right?

@"maddoctor.2738" said:An argument that was presented earlier in the thread, and I replied to, was that Fractal "multiple tiers" are used for training and by players who find it "comfortable" to play T3 instead of moving forward to T4. Yet, when there was no extra reward in T3, it was a barren wasteland, and after they added it, T3 became part of the game again.

My belief is that Fractals has the opposite problem of raids. It has too many tiers of difficulty. There are six Volcanic Fractals. There's no need for that, that does fracture the community. But that in no way means that all difficulty levels are unnecessary, that just one tier on Fractals would be an improvement. I think that if you are going to make any sort of "very difficult" content, then you at minimum want to have at least one "anyone can manage it" version. And maybe something in between, that's more optional. But one size is never going to fit all, if you only have the easy version, it bores the hardcores. If you only have the hard version, then most won't even bother. It's important to have at least one version that, while it might not be perfectly aligned to everyone's tastes, is at least reasonably close enough.

@Miellyn.6847 said:I have my normal mode. It is not hard if you actually ever bothered to play it correctly.

It's not too hard for you, and it's not too hard for me if I really put in the effort, but I would not enjoy putting in the effort, so it is too hard for me to enjoy, and that means it is too hard for it to be an activity I will play for fun.

That is a fact, take it or leave it.

Just look at the PoF meta events, eg Desolation and compare it to HoT metas and tell me with a straight face that the population difference is not rewards. Easy raids will be deserted fast with appropriate rewards.

If it's deserted fast then the rewards would not be appropriate. Again, if you're using the existing raids as the max limit, and saying that easy mode would need to be a tiny fraction of that, remember that I'm in favor of raising the loot payouts of the normal raids too, wouldn't that be nice?

Legendary armor is better put into open world that your raid easy mode.

Maybe, and I've be fine with that, but I also want easy mode raids to play. I want both of the things, not just one.

[Auri.1365]

I think that with adding an easy mode anet can only loose. A way to implement it that most people would be satisfied is probably very hard.

If they add easy mode without the collection-parts for envoy armor and maybe just one legendary insight for a complete wing, it would be wasted ressources that could have been invested somewhere else. If there are not really good rewards hardly anyone would play it regularly. Maybe some to see it once like a story instance and maybe a few for practice.As it would neither offer enough rewards nor a challenge and it wouldn't offer a unique experience to be played regularly just for fun (as similar content with better rewards already exists) I personally think that it would be dead content (I could be wrong here, but I just don't see how it could be successful).And this thread would still be going on in circles as some will still ask for envoy armor in easy mode raids.

If the add an easy mode with the possibility to get envoy armor, there would be the next 50+ pages thread of people complaining that anet trivialized the effort they have put into raids. And this thread would be probably much more heated than this one.There could also be other threads like people wanting a compensation for the mystic coins they paid raid sellers, or threads that anet is creating a precedent and will trivialize other stuff as well and all the time and gold people invested would be lost for nothing, and people specualting if we can soon get a unlock of all skins in gemstore for 15.000 gems...I don't know what the reactions will look like, but if you read the forum and how it is going nuts from time to time, I think it could get really bad for anet.

It probably would be better to just add more legendary stuff in open world pve like Aurora, where for example a piece of armor (not envoy skin) can be acquired with a similar method like Aurora.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Or to move on. The better options you seek are highly unrealistic and extremely unfair. Hence the strong opposition.

They're not at all unrealistic or unfair, they just trigger gatekeepers who want to keep the shinies to themselves. They declare "this is ours, you cannot have it unless you become like us!" I find

that

attitude "highly unrealistic and extremely unfair." Having a lot of opposition on the raid forum is not unexpected, but it in no way indicates that they are making valid points.

Welcome to the real world, Neo.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Forgive me for not willing to ruin my own experience just so you don't need to step 1 millimetre off your comfort zone.

Do you accept that I could never enjoy raids as you do, and are just content with me never enjoying them so long as you get to enjoy them unchallenged, or do you believe, despite the many times I've explained myself, that "if only I gave it a shot" I could come to love the existing raids just as much as you do?

I don't know if you've tried raiding or not. If you haven't, then both are possible outcomes. If you have, and didn't like them, then the outcome speaks for itself. Of course, not liking raids is a possible and valid outcome in any case, and I have never refused to acknowledge that. The point is, if you find a specific content not suited to your liking, you simply don't play it. If you want its rewards, well, then you have a choice to make, dictated by weighing your dislike against your desire. In either case, you make that choice. By playing or not playing. Every single player does exactly the same choice, over and over again. Say, I actually would like to get The Ascension. But this requires me to play sPVP, a mode I don't enjoy. So I don't. I made my choice, and I accepted it. Judging by your position, you made your own choice, but you're refusing to accept it. Sorry mate, the problem here is you. Not the game, not me, not the raiders as a whole, you.

[Tyson.5160]

@Auri.1365 said:I think that with adding an easy mode anet can only loose. A way to implement it that most people would be satisfied is probably very hard.

If they add easy mode without the collection-parts for envoy armor and maybe just one legendary insight for a complete wing, it would be wasted ressources that could have been invested somewhere else. If there are not really good rewards hardly anyone would play it regularly. Maybe some to see it once like a story instance and maybe a few for practice.As it would neither offer enough rewards nor a challenge and it wouldn't offer a unique experience to be played regularly just for fun (as similar content with better rewards already exists) I personally think that it would be dead content (I could be wrong here, but I just don't see how it could be successful).And this thread would still be going on in circles as some will still ask for envoy armor in easy mode raids.

If the add an easy mode with the possibility to get envoy armor, there would be the next 50+ pages thread of people complaining that anet trivialized the effort they have put into raids. And this thread would be probably much more heated than this one.There could also be other threads like people wanting a compensation for the mystic coins they paid raid sellers, or threads that anet is creating a precedent and will trivialize other stuff as well and all the time and gold people invested would be lost for nothing, and people specualting if we can soon get a unlock of all skins in gemstore for 15.000 gems...I don't know what the reactions will look like, but if you read the forum and how it is going nuts from time to time, I think it could get really bad for anet.

It probably would be better to just add more legendary stuff in open world pve like Aurora, where for example a piece of armor (not envoy skin) can be acquired with a similar method like Aurora.

Yeah I’m thinking more and more that there should be an open world Legendary Armor not tied to raids. With its own unique skins, with a different acquisition requirement.

Once that is all said and done, people that have acquired that Legendary Armor could try raids do a full clear of all the wings and never go back if they need to.

[Dreddo.9865]

@maddoctor.2738 said:...all the posts about T3 on the LFG is about daily recommended. I posted a developer post from the time they added a new reward (T3 daily recommended) which made T3 viable as a choice, as opposed to nobody running it. The only reason T3 is being run is the daily recommended and it's rather obvious by comparing how many were running it before and how many started running it after. It's not really rocket science.I am not into a 'meaningless posts competition' so I stop it here.

@Dreddo.9865 said:Frankly, If you are really into fractals you should already know all these.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Forgive me for not willing to ruin my own experience just so you don't need to step 1 millimetre off your comfort zone.

Do you accept that I could never enjoy raids as you do, and are just content with me never enjoying them so long as you get to enjoy them unchallenged, or do you believe, despite the many times I've explained myself, that "if only I gave it a shot" I could come to love the existing raids just as much as you do?

I don't know if you've tried raiding or not. If you haven't, then both are possible outcomes.

I have, and can add on to that a few decades of prior gaming experience that at least let me know what I do and do not enjoy doing, perhaps even more accurately than you know what I do and do not enjoy doing.

Of course, not liking raids is a possible and valid outcome in any case, and I have never refused to acknowledge that. The point is, if you find a specific content not suited to your liking, you simply don't play it. If you want its rewards, well, then you have a choice to make, dictated by weighing your dislike against your desire.

But see, neither choice is good. They are both just two different varieties of bad. Adding an easy mode would provide an actual "good" option to the list, which is why that is what I will continue to pursue, rather than accepting one of the two flavors of "quit and go home" that you so generously offer to me. Thank you.

Say, I actually would like to get The Ascension. But this requires me to play sPVP, a mode I don't enjoy. So I don't. I made my choice, and I accepted it.

And that was your choice, but you could have made the choice to advocate that ANet improve their game, offer you an option that would allow you to acquire the Ascension, without having to participate in content that you know you would not enjoy. That choice I would have respected a lot more, because it wouldn't be quitting.

Judging by your position, you made your own choice, but you're refusing to accept it.

Oh, I'm accepting my choice just fine, it's just not the choice you wanted me to make.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Say, I actually would like to get The Ascension. But this requires me to play sPVP, a mode I don't enjoy. So I don't. I made my choice, and I accepted it.

And that was your choice, but you could have made the choice to advocate that ANet improve their game, offer you an option that would allow you to acquire the Ascension,

without

having to participate in content that you know you would not enjoy.

That

choice I would have respected a lot more, because it wouldn't be quitting.

It's not quitting, it's recognizing what's fair. It's recognizing there are people who enjoy something I don't, and the fact they need to have their own rewards for it. It is exactly what you fail to do. I find it quite amusing you were just accusing me of not accepting your own different preferences. But irony aside, it is still your own problem.

Oh, and let me get this very clear - I couldn't care less about your own choices. You're not my family, relative, friend, or even an acquaintance. Your choices are yours to make, and their consequences are yours to take. However don't mistake unrealistic requests that affect the experience of others for personal choices. These they are not. Yet another fact you fail to recognize.