Expanded Weapon Proficiencies Beta Feedback: Ranger

[Swagger.1459]

I want to help make these weapons enjoyable and usable in every mode.

All #1 Skills magically blast out “verdant” (nature, grass, rocks, and stuff) energy 900 range.

#2 Slam the ground causing a conical cascading quake in front of your character. 900 Range. 

#3 “Ammo” type Skill. 2 uses. Manual/reticle targeting for tactical use. 900 range. 240 blast radius… Or 3 “ammo” for 600 range with manual targeting. 240 blast radius. 

#4 Summon thorns to pull in enemies, then damage them, and all the other stuff. 360 radius.

#5  Slamming the ground causes a “verdant” quake that lingers for 5 seconds. Damage pulse each second. Daze 2 seconds. 360 radius.

 

…So now these skills become fun to use and more viable throughout the various game modes. 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Swagger.1459

[Iustitian.9176]

- Skill 1: Toolbox is too big (heigh) for the screen. We need tooltips with 2 columns to see all information.
- Skill 3: 2.5 stun time is a bit too much. 1.5 stun time would be enough.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

In PvE, there are 2 major criticisms I have for maces as a whole, and one for Untamed specifically.

1. Force of Nature (or whatever the actual buff is called, there's so many of the same icon I do not remember lul) takes too long to recharge. This makes it a bit hard to use for burst builds (like power soulbeast) but also a bit awkward for sustained builds (like power untamed). I can understand to some degree (as the buff gives you a lot of benefits), but it feels a little hard to work with offensively.

2. Not so much with the damage or functionality itself, but mace 5 when moving's animation feels a little awkward or stiff (standing straight and swinging downwards), especially with the offhand weapon. Might be worth polishing up for the release, although it is a cool new animation.

For Untamed specifically, the ambush does not blend well with main hand mace's more supportive aspect. Main hand mace should either have more power tuning for DPS builds (if that is what the ambush should be "mimicking" like on other weapons), or it should get some boons for quickness untamed (a bit of might and fury, which power quick untamed lacks group support for unlike most other quickness builds, and it would give some oomph for heal untamed. Maybe even group stability, although that might need mh mace to be relegated to heal builds only at that point, which I am not entirely keen on).

[Dredsh.2360]

Most bugs i have noticed are related to the untamed ambush.

- The Untamed ambush is not giving the [Let Loose] trait boon, Quickness in Pve, Might Wvw/Pvp.

- There appears to be a priority issue with the autoattacks and the ambush.

- The character isnt turning correctly to use the ambush, only shoots directly in front of character

 

A ranger related bug that also devalues the proctetion given by mace:

- The hidden effect "Rugged Growth" is not being applied to the player character while considering the "Protection" boon full duration (concentration), only the base duration, also, the hidden effect "Rugged Growth" does not seem to be stacking with itself, these two factors brought toguether leave the actual uptime of the "Rugged Growth" effect to be between 20-50% of what is intended, only effectively happening at the first moments where the ranger recieves the "Protection" boon.

- More info on the matter

 

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

OK, sure. You kill some lone guardian fighting a tower lord and 2 guards, while you swipe a couple times with mace then use CA. You go down ramp and swipe at outnumbered enemies with your mace then use CA again. You run outside swipe some baddies getting pelted by your team, use CA again, then swap to GS. 

Your maces accomplished next to nothing, it was the NPCs and your team doing all the work. That's exactly what the video shows, yet here you are claiming "viable zerging weapon".   

 

10 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I never thought i'd ever say this but for once swagger is right - you do absolutely nothing in that vidoe. The dh would have died to guards even without your tickeling and the remaining few players just get zerged. But it gives a good impression on what sort of gameplay to expect from those that think maces are good in WvW i guess.

At least I can always count on you two coming at me to inflate a post count---thanks for the feedback, it was a fun read 😂.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[philvaneyck.1932]

mace/mace is the only new weapon set I like here in this update. 

[Swagger.1459]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

At least I can always count on you two coming at me to inflate a post count---thanks for the feedback, it was a fun read 😂.

 

Well, thanks for posting your gameplay video showing why maces aren't viable outside of pve and reinforcing my argument!

[Gotejjeken.1267]

3 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Well, thanks for posting your gameplay video showing why maces aren't viable outside of pve and reinforcing my argument!

It's a 2 min vid on a beta char, how hard do you think I was trying when getting zero rewards? 

Since you are holding on to 'viable', the reason I said it is viable is because you definitely can theorycraft a zerg build around these.  Just screwing around and testing it with CA/Entangle was able to put it to pretty good effect--the whole point of the video was to show support/group build not one-shot montages you seem used to.  One shot montages by and large are useless--they are all meme builds that catch bad players unaware; I don't like them and don't make them.  

Anyway, if I was on my actual character, with actual gear, and actually trying--it would be a different video, and maybe down the line I'll do a roaming or group one with them.  But for now, the whole point was to show you can stay in the thick of things.

Saying 'maces are useless' is facetious at best--the offhand alone has some really good utility.  The problem with maces is building up force of nature--even in that video you can see it was tough and didn't quite get there even when basically just running forward into enemies.  It's also BG, and BG never has been a fighting server, so any defense is basically chasing them down if they don't overwhelm.  The point being can't build force of nature on something running from you.

In sPvP I see them probably being most used to bunker sidenode, much to chargrin of some on here.  The barrier and stab puts them leagues above Hammer in this regard.

Anyway, I've said my peace, showed the basic vid--no use going in circles really.  

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Feedback on Ranger Mace:

Mainhand

I was a bit concerned about a possibly confused identity on Maces after the skills got revealed. But especially mainhand mace seems to be a winner. It flows well, it has leap, CC, protection, a heal, it feels like everything that especially support druid could want. I am unsure if vigor on the auto-attack makes sense, but at the same time I cannot really think of something to replace it. With druid having enough heals anyway a heal would be overkill. What could use a heal however, is the Untamed Mace Ambush skill. That would mean that not just support Druid but Support/Heal Untamed can also take the mace, improving its versatility among builds. I would gladly trade away damage on the ambush if it can get healing. But that is probably the only possible gripe I have with mainhand mace, it feels like the weapon is 90% where it should be.

Offhand

I have no idea what we are going to do with the off-hand here. Thistleguard I suppose is a defense weapon of sorts, but that 1s of stability is a joke. But that clashes with what Mace 5 is trying to do. It tries to be a DPS skill, but you are never going to challenge Axe 5 in PvE. And in PvP I don't think you are going to catch anyone with it, not to mention it damage potential gets neutered due to the stun, and we all know how CC behaves in PvP damagewise.

Force of Nature/Nature's Strength

The mini mechanic feels like an afterthought to me. I don't really think you are going to build around this. If it happens it's great, but I am not really convinced. Maybe on the mainhand sometimes, but I feel like you will often swap away before reaching the threshold. That bring it to another issue: You are never going to build up into Force of Nature if you only run off-hand mace. Never. Off-hand Mace feels extremely tied to the mainhand for this, but in especially PvE you are not taking off-hand Mace over staff mace/warhorn (support) or something like hammer sword/axe (DPS). If you want Force of Nature and Nature's Strength to become a real thing, you will need to make it easier to achieve and also make it that off-hand Mace can trigger the effect on its own. Maybe let Mace 5 build up stacks of Nature's Strength with each hit it does (4) and let Thistleguard always generate 1 stack and a bonus stack if it also hits an enemy? That way you get off-hand mace a way to reliably build up the stacks on its own AND maybe make it an option for PvE DPS players for a high-risk burst in an ultra short phase like for example fractals ( Thistleguard into Wild Strikes for Force of Nature and the CC bonus from Soulbeast, then Sick-em switch into Axe 5 for ultra burst window but nothing else if you mess it up)?

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Force of Nature/Nature's Strength

The mini mechanic feels like an afterthought to me. I don't really think you are going to build around this. If it happens it's great, but I am not really convinced. Maybe on the mainhand sometimes, but I feel like you will often swap away before reaching the threshold.

This goes along with what I mentioned before.  I forcibly worked to generate enough to get Force of Nature to kick off, and once it did I was quite underwhelmed with the result for all of the effort.  I don't see building around this mechanic either, as it stands now.  I'd rather be doing something else than putting so much effort into getting FoN to fire because pretty much anything else would be more beneficial.

[Nero.7369]

General feedback
+++ I really welcome the Main hand for a Healing Build
-- Force of Nature Stacks last to short, when you only play one of those weapons
-- Force of Nature Stacks take ages to stack when you are only play one of those weapons, specially with the mace in offhand. Plus I dont see any point in using both in a build right now.

Skill 5
++ Good that we can move while using it
++ Good DPS, could even a tiny bit more

Skill 4
+ Condi Cleanse on a Weapon Skill? Nice!
--- Feels really wired to use, I dont get this facetank the hits with some barrier thing, often the barrier is not enough and you'd prefere to dodge, i'd prefere a block or an evade here. 
- Damage is also really low

Skill 3
++ Good skill over all with stun and prot
- Leap range is a bit to Short: Could really need an increased leap range of 600!

Skill 2
++ Good  Support Utility overall
- DPS is a bit low if Mace/Mace Bruisher shall become an option this has to be higher

Skill 1
~ It's an autoattack after all 🤷‍♂️

Skill 1 Ambush
+ Nice to see some ranged aoe stuff on it
- A Bit Weak Damage wise
- No Support effect. Would really like to see some AoE healing and Boon/support effect on this, so support untamed become more of a thing

Edited December 1, 2023 by Nero.7369

[Swagger.1459]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It's a 2 min vid on a beta char, how hard do you think I was trying when getting zero rewards? 

Since you are holding on to 'viable', the reason I said it is viable is because you definitely can theorycraft a zerg build around these.  Just screwing around and testing it with CA/Entangle was able to put it to pretty good effect--the whole point of the video was to show support/group build not one-shot montages you seem used to.  One shot montages by and large are useless--they are all meme builds that catch bad players unaware; I don't like them and don't make them.  

Anyway, if I was on my actual character, with actual gear, and actually trying--it would be a different video, and maybe down the line I'll do a roaming or group one with them.  But for now, the whole point was to show you can stay in the thick of things.

Saying 'maces are useless' is facetious at best--the offhand alone has some really good utility.  The problem with maces is building up force of nature--even in that video you can see it was tough and didn't quite get there even when basically just running forward into enemies.  It's also BG, and BG never has been a fighting server, so any defense is basically chasing them down if they don't overwhelm.  The point being can't build force of nature on something running from you.

In sPvP I see them probably being most used to bunker sidenode, much to chargrin of some on here.  The barrier and stab puts them leagues above Hammer in this regard.

Anyway, I've said my peace, showed the basic vid--no use going in circles really.  

Ok, but your video clearly shows how subpar maces are for wvw so thanks for hi-lighting my point.

You post a video with 3 npcs + you killing a lone guard and your side doing all the work, yet you use that as some feedback to the devs as to why maces are "viable". You presented the video, then accuse someone of not reading it correctly when challenged, when you should have reflected on how poor maces performed instead.

Maces are not currently viable outside of pve period. They were not designed for wvw or spvp in mind, and that's clear to see.  

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Ok, but your video clearly shows how subpar maces are for wvw so thanks for hi-lighting my point.

You post a video with 3 npcs + you killing a lone guard and your side doing all the work, yet you use that as some feedback to the devs as to why maces are "viable". You presented the video, then accuse someone of not reading it correctly when challenged, when you should have reflected on how poor maces performed instead.

Maces are not currently viable outside of pve period. They were not designed for wvw or spvp in mind, and that's clear to see.  

You're misunderstanding the point--I really don't care how they performed, as I wasn't giving much effort because it's literally BG, only so much you can do with a server based on running if not vastly outnumbered. 

If you want to highlight a point, make a fail montage of you using maces or something? 

Not sure what to tell you here and sick of going in circles about your perception of my video lol.  If they fix force of nature generation then maces have potential, full stop.  

[Kaliwenda.3428]

I really like the mace for ranger, I can see myself using this when it goes live.

[Stx.4857]

Out of the three weapons I have tested, these ranger maces are by far my favorite.  I am looking forward to making bruiser / offensive support type builds with them.  
 

1) I wish the force of nature buff was a little different.  I didn’t really enjoy needing to track it and how short the buff is once obtained.  I would prefer if it was simply a buff that boosted your damage by 10% or so after using a certain number of mace skills, and the buff fell off after not using any for a time.  
 

2) I wish the weapon set buffed your pet in some way.  Either have force of nature boost your pets damage too, or one of the skills could cause your pets next attack to do something, I don’t know.  

[Matt H.6142]

My only concern is how easily/likely is it to get the nature's strength buff when only using one mace.  Ambush Skill seems to just one shot some stuff (but hadn't left Gendarren yet on ranger.)  But gameplay felt solid, and is the most fun mace user in game now.  So much so, I hope you might revisit warrior and guardian.

[Draeyon.4392]

How would swapping Mace 3 and Mace 4 around turn out?

Seems like Main Hand Mace could be a really good main hand support weapon and you could complement it with offhand mace to fully invest in the Nature's Strength effect or you could pair it with off hand warhorn for full support.

 

Same with offhand mace. Becomes a decent offhand damage/cc weapon that can be paired with all of rangers other main hands.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Draeyon.4392

[Arheundel.6451]

Overall mace/mace is so good from now ...that we all should be expecting nerfs to come at release, otherwise this petty community would flood the forum with tears. I can only hope the overall idea behind it doesn't change much...yeah mace 5 dmg will be nerfed at 200% just because is actually good..as good as sword was after the rework and that got nerfed so.....

[Aamu.3952]

Bug: Mace #5 doesn't work with quick draw.

[Maekrix Waere.2087]

5 hours ago, Draeyon.4392 said:

How would swapping Mace 3 and Mace 4 around turn out?

Seems like Main Hand Mace could be a really good main hand support weapon and you could complement it with offhand mace to fully invest in the Nature's Strength effect or you could pair it with off hand warhorn for full support.

 

Same with offhand mace. Becomes a decent offhand damage/cc weapon that can be paired with all of rangers other main hands.

That would be terrible for mainhand and would make the offhand completely one-dimensional.  The defensive support mainhand loses ~80% protection uptime on their subgroup and a blast finisher for Karakosa procs in exchange for a barrier and condi cleanse that only affects themselves (at odds with the rest of the weapon), and the more bruiser-y off-hand would lose all of it's personal defensive utility and be reduced to just having two "Damage and CC" moves.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Maekrix Waere.2087

[Skib.3875]

Force of Nature knocks you out of combat tonics. using Embiggening or Kodan tonic once you enter Force of Nature you revert to your normal character model then back to your tonic once it wears off.

I would like to play max height Norn with embiggening and get EVEN bigger with with Force of Nature.

[DarkFlopy.8197]

Yo Anet,

You do know that mace does not have damaging conditions, right?
At least give us the cooldown reduction.
https://imgur.com/a/jZxlhrE

[Hydrolysis.6810]

Mace Ambush: Rampant Growth (MTG)

It's hard to hit with the skill as it travels towards where you are facing and not in the direction of your target. Change it to a ground target skill or make it as wide as Searing Fissure from rev mace.

Skill 3: Oaken Cudgel

The range is too short for a proper engage skill. Increase the range to 600 or reduce the travel time. Especially if we are going to give up sword, great sword, or hammer.

Other thoughts

It is difficult to stack nature’s strength on the offhand as it requires you to cast the skills in a particular order and time to get 6 stacks.  Increase nature’s strength duration to 20 sec or make it so you don’t lose stacks while in combat or just make each skill give 2 stacks if hit.

Give some value for having individual stacks of Nature’s strength (or name change since you are not gaining any strength. Nature’s Charge) just to alleviate the anxiety of having to get the perfect rotation for force of nature which only have a 5 second window.

I was getting a small inconsistent healing from Wave of Healing on every 3 complete cycles of the auto attack, not seeing anything on the tool tip.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Swagger.1459]

On 12/1/2023 at 2:02 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You're misunderstanding the point--I really don't care how they performed, as I wasn't giving much effort because it's literally BG, only so much you can do with a server based on running if not vastly outnumbered. 

If you want to highlight a point, make a fail montage of you using maces or something? 

Not sure what to tell you here and sick of going in circles about your perception of my video lol.  If they fix force of nature generation then maces have potential, full stop.  

I misunderstand nothing. You post a video with npcs and your side doing the work while claiming maces are "viable", then try to play it off like people just didn't get it or don't wvw. We all clearly see what you did in the video evidence you posted, and it was anything but "viable". The problem is that gives the devs the false impression that these weapons are good, when in fact, they aren't. 

Maybe reassess your own video in a more objective manner?  

 

[Ehecatl.9172]

Did some more testing in Unranked.

Dual maces seem pretty decent. When paired with staff I rarely felt like I just didn't have any options when engaging in big fights.

Axe/Mace also felt really good. Playstyle is mostly as a skirmisher with the ranged axe skills, but you have a defensive skill in 4 and an AoE melee attack in 5 for when the enemy tries to get in close. Coupled with Splitblade on 3 you can do a surprising amount of close-range burst damage, and more importantly, you don't lose all your mobility like with offhand axe.

Mace/Axe I didn't like as much. The pull on Path of Scars is nice when it lands but it is fairly hard to land, and losing mobility for Whirling Defense feels very bad when I could've just kept auto-attacking with mace without getting stuck.