Expanded Weapon Proficiencies Beta Feedback: Ranger

[Riot Inducer.8964]

I didn't really know what to expect with ranger maces but these are actually pretty solid, possibly the best of the whole beta. It actually has reasonable damage and support capabilities. 

The Nature's Strength mechanic is interesting, it feels cool to hulk out periodically and I'm sure there'll be a skill to matching the hulk out to line up with your most impactful skills. I'm not sure how I feel about it tbh. If you're only using off-hand mace it's very awkward to make use of as you have to stagger the use of your skills to maintain the stacks and then it takes a good 30+ seconds to achieve 6 and hulk out.

Overall the weapon set is very solid but if I could offer one critique it would be to remove the Nature's Strength mechanic from the off-hand and reduce the number of stacks needed to hulk out on the main-hand. This will let the off-hand skills be buffed up with either more damage or other effects that are more useful when not paired with main-hand mace. 

[Maekrix Waere.2087]

26 minutes ago, Riot Inducer.8964 said:

I didn't really know what to expect with ranger maces but these are actually pretty solid, possibly the best of the whole beta. It actually has reasonable damage and support capabilities. 

The Nature's Strength mechanic is interesting, it feels cool to hulk out periodically and I'm sure there'll be a skill to matching the hulk out to line up with your most impactful skills. I'm not sure how I feel about it tbh. If you're only using off-hand mace it's very awkward to make use of as you have to stagger the use of your skills to maintain the stacks and then it takes a good 30+ seconds to achieve 6 and hulk out.

Overall the weapon set is very solid but if I could offer one critique it would be to remove the Nature's Strength mechanic from the off-hand and reduce the number of stacks needed to hulk out on the main-hand. This will let the off-hand skills be buffed up with either more damage or other effects that are more useful when not paired with main-hand mace. 

I do really want to like Nature's Strength, but the cooldown where you're not allowed to gain stacks just sours the whole thing for me.  I just can't work it into a smooth weapon swap on cooldown rotation.  It takes time to build the stacks, then you have the effect for 5 seconds and then 15 seconds where you can't build stacks at all.  I wish it was that the cooldown was 15 seconds where you could still build stacks, but you couldn't get more than 5 stacks.  That way you can't grow and skill reset more than once every 20 seconds, but you could still build up to 5 stacks during that time, letting you cleanly fit the mechanic into a 20s rotation.

Totally agree with removing the mechanic from the offhand, too.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

I misunderstand nothing. You post a video with npcs and your side doing the work while claiming maces are "viable", then try to play it off like people just didn't get it or don't wvw. We all clearly see what you did in the video evidence you posted, and it was anything but "viable". The problem is that gives the devs the false impression that these weapons are good, when in fact, they aren't. 

Maybe reassess your own video in a more objective manner?  

 

One day I'll make a roaming video with them where I actually try.  You can PM your server and I'll try to get you in it if you want.  

[draxynnic.3719]

20 hours ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

Yo Anet,

You do know that mace does not have damaging conditions, right?
At least give us the cooldown reduction.
https://imgur.com/a/jZxlhrE

They've possibly included it because it is technically a weapon for which ambidexterity would play a factor, and someone might come up with a build that uses conditions and offhand mace even if it isn't intuitively the optimal choice.

13 hours ago, Maekrix Waere.2087 said:

I do really want to like Nature's Strength, but the cooldown where you're not allowed to gain stacks just sours the whole thing for me.  I just can't work it into a smooth weapon swap on cooldown rotation.  It takes time to build the stacks, then you have the effect for 5 seconds and then 15 seconds where you can't build stacks at all.  I wish it was that the cooldown was 15 seconds where you could still build stacks, but you couldn't get more than 5 stacks.  That way you can't grow and skill reset more than once every 20 seconds, but you could still build up to 5 stacks during that time, letting you cleanly fit the mechanic into a 20s rotation.

Totally agree with removing the mechanic from the offhand, too.

I think the intended cadence is:

1. Switch to mace
2. Build stacks
3. Hulk out
4. Go through the mace skills that just refreshed
5. Switch to your other weapon set until the timeout period expires

If it takes roughly 5 seconds to go through step 4, then the timeout should expire roughly when you're able to swap back.

Basically, they're encouraging weaponswapping.

I'm not sure if that's the right call, though. Might be better if you could start building stacks again as soon as you shrink. This would mean that there's a clear visual representation of when you can build up stacks again without having to look at your bar, and would also mean that you don't feel like your melee weaponset is pushing you to swap even if your other set is ranged.

[aymnad.9023]

I played double maces slb in Open world and in PvP. The reset +the buffs are super strong and a ton of fun. However after a few games I noticed that landing  all skills and the last auto can be.. hard? I struggled getting stacks, knowing how many I had without looking at my buffs and knowing when I can start getting stacks again.

To be honest I have a hard time making a suggestion. Adding visual indicators without overloading the screen could be tricky. Something like deadeye is my best bet but I do not know how other people will feel about it. The buff is really strong so if it becomes easier to get it should be lowered.

Main hand will be definitely be used on druids. Off hand while fun will probably be situational, something for solo content or to be a duelist.

Edited December 4, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Orion Templar.4589]

On 12/1/2023 at 10:25 PM, Aamu.3952 said:

Bug: Mace #5 doesn't work with quick draw.

I was just noticing the same thing. I observed that other mace skills worked with Quick Draw, but mace skill #5 did not work with Quick Draw, even though the skill finished before the Quick Draw timer had expired.

[Maekrix Waere.2087]

17 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

1. Switch to mace
2. Build stacks
3. Hulk out
4. Go through the mace skills that just refreshed
5. Switch to your other weapon set until the timeout period expires

If it takes roughly 5 seconds to go through step 4, then the timeout should expire roughly when you're able to swap back.

Basically, they're encouraging weaponswapping.

I'm not sure if that's the right call, though. Might be better if you could start building stacks again as soon as you shrink. This would mean that there's a clear visual representation of when you can build up stacks again without having to look at your bar, and would also mean that you don't feel like your melee weaponset is pushing you to swap even if your other set is ranged.

I mean that's probably the intention, but if you have quickness on and you're not using both maces at the same time then going through the refreshed skills probably only takes a couple seconds.  You swap to other weapon set with multiple seconds left on Big Mode and go through that weapon's skills as normal and then swap back to mace with ~7 seconds left on the timeout.  You go through mace skills while timed out, and you can finally build up stacks again with ~3 seconds left before swapping again and now you have the reset and Big Mode offset by several stacks every time it happens.  It's just a mess to manage in a rotation unless you're deliberately delaying your weapon swaps by a massive margin, planning a rotation around minutes long rotation periods where you take that reset offset into account, or if your weapon swap is Celestial avatar and you ride out the whole 15 seconds, in which case it's... definitely less messy but still probably offsetting you a little bit.

To me this all results in a setup which discourages quick weapon swapping, and which is why I'd rather the timeout still let you build stacks but be unable to reach 6 to activate the mechanic.  At that point it fits cleanly into a weapon swap on cooldown rotation.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Maekrix Waere.2087

[Throfin.5932]

Loved this new "bruiser" playstyle! I like that the main hand and off hand have different characteristics that work well together, but still add that same value to other weapon combinations.

I do wish the Nature's Fury (sorry, I forget the name) buff could be consumed actively instead of passively, but I get the ranger is a low-difficulty class. I just enjoyed that type of functionality in the new ele and necro weapons.

[Raven.8156]

After playing around with the maces:

1. Ambush skill on Mace 1 should be an AOE heal. 

2. The healing flow isn't very consistent outside of the Druid spec. The auto-attack chain could have some additional healing incorporated into one of the chain skills, perhaps on Burgeon. 

3. Force of Nature: The sudden enlargement of the character is kind of distracting/jarring, considering the duration isn't very long. might be better to forego that effect or replace it with a simpler visual cue.

[Sieghart.8745]

This is from a PvP Standpoint. Ranger mace was amazing this will be my only positive post about the beta. 1 comment i wanna make though to make it better is make it 5 stacks of natures strength instead of 6 cause its so hard to even get it in pvp or atleast lower some CD's and keep it 6 cause i could barley get it at times when i had 5 stacks it would disappear. 

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

I don't know if anyone has commented on this bug or issue, but Mace Ambush has a weird interaction where it blasts off where your character is facing and doesn't readjust your character position. Regardless of that issue the mace fundamentally fill in multiple roles and build which is what I like.

[draxynnic.3719]

19 hours ago, Maekrix Waere.2087 said:

I mean that's probably the intention, but if you have quickness on and you're not using both maces at the same time then going through the refreshed skills probably only takes a couple seconds.  You swap to other weapon set with multiple seconds left on Big Mode and go through that weapon's skills as normal and then swap back to mace with ~7 seconds left on the timeout.  You go through mace skills while timed out, and you can finally build up stacks again with ~3 seconds left before swapping again and now you have the reset and Big Mode offset by several stacks every time it happens.  It's just a mess to manage in a rotation unless you're deliberately delaying your weapon swaps by a massive margin, planning a rotation around minutes long rotation periods where you take that reset offset into account, or if your weapon swap is Celestial avatar and you ride out the whole 15 seconds, in which case it's... definitely less messy but still probably offsetting you a little bit.

To me this all results in a setup which discourages quick weapon swapping, and which is why I'd rather the timeout still let you build stacks but be unable to reach 6 to activate the mechanic.  At that point it fits cleanly into a weapon swap on cooldown rotation.

I don't think it'd be practical to allow stacks to build up while empowered. The play then would be to trigger the buff, reset your skills, save one of them while building up stacks, and then trigger it immediately after the timeout expires. Or if the timeout is long enough, use all the skills, weaponswap, go through the other set, come back, and immediately go empowered because in that time skill 2 at least has recharged. I suspect they want the ranger to still take some time to build up when swapping to maces.

Calibrating the cooldown accordingly would probably be a suitable approach. Make it more like 10 seconds, and even with quickness and alacrity, the stacks should be ready to start building again when swapping back to maces.

[Maekrix Waere.2087]

On 12/4/2023 at 8:26 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think it'd be practical to allow stacks to build up while empowered. The play then would be to trigger the buff, reset your skills, save one of them while building up stacks, and then trigger it immediately after the timeout expires. Or if the timeout is long enough, use all the skills, weaponswap, go through the other set, come back, and immediately go empowered because in that time skill 2 at least has recharged. I suspect they want the ranger to still take some time to build up when swapping to maces.

Calibrating the cooldown accordingly would probably be a suitable approach. Make it more like 10 seconds, and even with quickness and alacrity, the stacks should be ready to start building again when swapping back to maces.

But even that wouldn't really work because the timeout starts when Big Mode ends, not when the reset happens.  If you swap over to the other weapon set with a couple seconds left on Big Mode, then if you swap back on cooldown you'll still have a couple second left on the timeout when you get back to mace.  Maybe you could make the timeout start when the reset triggers (extend it to 20s) and then it gets removed if you swap weapons?  That way you keep the current timeout duration if you're camping mace(s), but now you're allowed to work the reset seamlessly into a standard rotation.

Edit:  Thinking back on it, I don't think the weapon swap thing would actually work.  If you just swapped from, say, M/M to M/A then it would still be activatable more often than intended.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Maekrix Waere.2087

[draxynnic.3719]

22 hours ago, Maekrix Waere.2087 said:

But even that wouldn't really work because the timeout starts when Big Mode ends, not when the reset happens.  If you swap over to the other weapon set with a couple seconds left on Big Mode, then if you swap back on cooldown you'll still have a couple second left on the timeout when you get back to mace.  Maybe you could make the timeout start when the reset triggers (extend it to 20s) and then it gets removed if you swap weapons?  That way you keep the current timeout duration if you're camping mace(s), but now you're allowed to work the reset seamlessly into a standard rotation.

Edit:  Thinking back on it, I don't think the weapon swap thing would actually work.  If you just swapped from, say, M/M to M/A then it would still be activatable more often than intended.

I was probably thinking in terms of 10s of total timeout, included the enlarged period. Hopefully the gist is there, though - the timeout can be calibrated so that if you use most or all of the recharged skills and then weaponswap, you should be ready to build stacks again by the time you swap back.

[Maekrix Waere.2087]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I was probably thinking in terms of 10s of total timeout, included the enlarged period. Hopefully the gist is there, though - the timeout can be calibrated so that if you use most or all of the recharged skills and then weaponswap, you should be ready to build stacks again by the time you swap back.

Okay, yeah, I'd agree with that.

[Josif.2015]

Ranger using maces isn't a bad weapon choice, however the main-hand mace could be better. Here are my thoughts on the weapons:

Germinate, Burgeon, Cultivate (mace 1): no changes needed.
Flourish (mace 2): either reduce the healing and regeneration duration or increase the cooldown on this skill from 6 to 8.
Oaken Cudgel (mace 3): replace the stun with a daze.
Thistleguard (mace 4): reduce the number of conditions removed from 2 to 1.
Wild Strikes (mace 5): no changes needed.

[DarkFlopy.8197]

19 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

Germinate, Burgeon, Cultivate (mace 1): no changes needed.

Since you didn't say to what game mode you are referring to then I will assume you mean changes to the weapon across all modes.

I say reduce cast time of the 3rd hit by 0.25sec (1/4) since it is very slow and that's the only attack in the chain that gives you stacks.

19 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

Flourish (mace 2): either reduce the healing and regeneration duration or increase the cooldown on this skill from 6 to 8.

In competitive mode the heal and regen are berly noticable so if so increase it a bit more than reduce it, about the cooldown I would say keep as is since it has 2 parts and there is a delay between them.

19 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

Oaken Cudgel (mace 3): replace the stun with a daze.

Why? Maybe in PVE but why in competitive?

19 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

Thistleguard (mace 4): reduce the number of conditions removed from 2 to 1.

Who hurt you? 

19 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

Wild Strikes (mace 5): no changes needed.

I think they should keep an eye on this, the only change I would want on this is that every hit will grant a stack BUT it cannot grant more than 2 in total.

Edited December 7, 2023 by DarkFlopy.8197

[Tru Reptile.6058]

IMHO, it takes too long to build up 6 stacks for a 5 second buff on a 15 second CD, and it's even worse when using just a single mace. Perhaps reduce the number of stacks needed or remove the mechanic entirely. I'm fairly happy with the maces otherwise.

[Erik.5236]

Looking at these skills (main hand mace) from the point of view as a healtank in raids.
how often are you in a 180 radius of your entire subgroup? even 240 radius is very, very small...

mace 1: vigor, 240 radius
mace 2: regen, 180 radius
mace 3: protecion, 180 radius

Try tanking Dhuum cm (400 radius hitbox), while being in 180 radius of your subgroup and dodging the echo all the while... It is simply not going to happen, you probably won't even hit a single member of your party other than yourself most of the time 😉

Compared to a mechanist mace, there mace 2 gives both regen, vigor and barrier (and thus alacity) in a 360 radius. mace 2 on ranger will give some healing and only regen as boon, and that in a 180 radius.

I was hoping main hand mace would be a nice complement on warhorn, finally a usefull main hand weapon for healdruids. But with these radiuses, best not count on them to actually cover your parties boons... so what use are they then?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Some bugs or tweaks needed, but I love them !

[conquistator.6549]

Overall the mace, design wise, is a major departure from the fiasco that is the untamed. This is mostly welcome. From only WvW perspective, I think overall the mace are pretty good with only minor adjustment if possible being:

a) increase the radius of skill2 and 5 from 180 to around 220-240 with maybe 300 for final strike of skill 5.

b) skill 3 reduce cast time from 3/4 to 1/2 of a second due to short travel distance to make this a smoother gap closer.

c) skill 5, damage wise, can use a damage bump. maybe 20%?