They are selling hero points in the gem store now

[Assolador.3598]

Just now, Batel.9206 said:

...huh? Pretty sure I never mentioned other games.

No, I'm asking what there is in GW2, specifically GW2, that is pay-to-win. How do you win in this game? What constitutes "wining"? (Aside from fashion wars. 😜)

I just want to know why people are having conniptions over P2W in this game when it seems like there's nothing that fits that definition.

winning comes from any objective achieved, u won't beat the game since it's a online live service mmo tho
my actual objective is getting legendary aurene dagger, can I pay for it? yes. then that's a p2w aspect

[Cernoch.8524]

1 minute ago, Batel.9206 said:

I just want to know why people are having conniptions over P2W in this game when it seems like there's nothing that fits that definition.

Because there is not, they just want to believe there is 😉.

Pay to win conversation aside, I do not like any content skips, be it for real money or in game money, while it does not affect my gameplay if they pay for it or it does not make them stronger, it just feels weird. Just like lvl 80 boosts.

[Tiamat.8254]

It's difficult for a game like gw2. New players will never be able to catch up to veterans. This gives them the option to. I don't see the point in it personally but the reasoning is sound if you want new players and to make money. They need to make money to keep the game going.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Tiamat.8254
Typo.

[Cuks.8241]

3 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

No, they are saying that swiping and buying gemstore junk won't give you an advantage. This is not APB where you could pay 10€ or more per month to gain access to weapons that are better than what people not paying have access to.

Well thank you, you're the first one that actually gave an example. I'm not familiar with APB. Are those weapons not available outside of "gemstore", with additional time investment? Are we talking about buying DLC/expansions to get those weapons (like buying HOT for extra stat sets and elite specs) or are we talking additional transactions for paying customers? Basically are we talking the difference between b2p and f2p or additional investments specific to those weapons.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 minute ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Well thank you, you're the first one that actually gave an example. I'm not familiar with APB. Are those weapons not available outside of "gemstore", with additional time investment? Are we talking about buying DLC/expansions to get those weapons (like buying HOT for extra stat sets and elite specs) or are we talking additional transactions for paying customers? Basically are we talking the difference between b2p and f2p or additional investments specific to those weapons.

Essentially, you have a selection of guns you can buy, they're.. junk, but if you spend real money you have the fancy shop where you can get weapons, grenades and other fun stuff for a certain time at a stupid price, more damage and special attributes and visuals. 1-2-4 weeks if I remember right and like ~10€ per weapon, atleast that was the price almost 10 years ago.

So, it's like I have Twilight, but for 10€ you could buy ExtraTwilight for a month, which is let's say 25% stronger, allows you to change stats in combat and looks even fancier. I played some pretty stupid P2W games many years ago, 2010-2015 seemed to be the time of junk like that, but this is the one that's stuck with me.

[Freya.9075]

It doesn’t bother me. I will not buy these and it does not affect me in any way. So if someone wants to skip these hero points by paying for them, by all means do so. More money for anet to focus on the future of the game.

I would however pay to see the persons face when they buy these and it gives them only the commute ones though.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Freya.9075

[Assolador.3598]

5 minutes ago, Tiamat.8254 said:

It's difficult for a game like gw2. New players will never be able to catch up to veterans. This gives them the option to. I don't see the point in it personally but the reasoning is sound if you want new players and to make money. They need to make money to keep the game going.

isn't the wizard vault there for that? 2 legendaries already, along with lots of xp and gold

[Tiamat.8254]

2 minutes ago, Assolador.3598 said:

isn't the wizard vault there for that? 2 legendaries already, along with lots of xp and gold

There Wizards vault is there to provide more value to players than the daily rewards we got previously.  

[Thornbury.4179]

If someone buys the gems with gold and then buys the HPs, is that P2W?

Seems the lines are very blurred already given that gems can be bought with in game gold (earned through time spent in game) or cash (earned through time spent IRL). 

This is just an option for people to choose what content to skip to unlock a gated aspect on a character (like L80 boost or WP unlock). Swapping time spent in one activity for the time it would take to do another.

[Cuks.8241]

Just now, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Essentially, you have a selection of guns you can buy, they're.. junk, but if you spend real money you have the fancy shop where you can get weapons, grenades and other fun stuff for a certain time at a stupid price, more damage and special attributes and visuals. 1-2-4 weeks if I remember right and like ~10€ per weapon, atleast that was the price almost 10 years ago.

So, it's like I have Twilight, but for 10€ you could buy ExtraTwilight for a month, which is let's say 25% stronger, allows you to change stats in combat and looks even fancier. I played some pretty stupid P2W games many years ago, 2010-2015 seemed to be the time of junk like that, but this is the one that's stuck with me.

Yeah this is definitely the purest form of p2w and way beyond gw2.

I still think many players regard any ability to swipe for power (directly or indirectly) p2w. The difference between gw2 and for example Diablo Immortal is that in gw2 you're skipping maybe 100 hours and in other games you're skipping time that is unrealistic to achieve for most players. Although that is somewhat relative for each player and their playing habits. 

Anyway I don't hold it against gw2 because of it's power acquisition model and mostly horizontal progression. Still don't know why I would need to embellish it. In the end first legendary is a big goal for many and it's not a fast goal for a completely new player. The fact that you can swipe for it is not insignificant for some of them. Gw2 has mostly innocent options you can swipe for but in the end there are also a lot of options to improve your character and account that you can swipe for. 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I wish there was less disingenuity in the appropriation of terms.  The term, Pay-to-Win, has very negative associations in the gaming community.  When first coined, it was in reference to the selling of combat power in games with PvP elements when that power was either not available in game at all, or available in game only via  massive grind.  Essentially, it referred to people winning in competitive combat with other players not through skill, but by virtue of having splashed cash.

What happens in threads like these is that people use the term because: the game has done something that they don't like; the new thing can involve spending cash; and they want a term with the heaviest negative connotations to make their point.  Thus, the selling of HP unlocks is labelled pay-to-win when it meets none of the criteria from which the original meaning came.  This is disingenuous.

Don't like something?  Fine.  Post about it.  Just stop misappropriating a term because you can't be bothered to come up with some new term to label the behavior you dislike.

As for me?  There's a lot about GW2, particularly more recent GW2, that I dislike.  Selling HP unlocks, though?  Not even on my radar.  Obtaining HP in game is so trivial as to be inconsequential.  Could.  Not.  Care.  Less. 

[Hsanrb.1570]

I'm about to login, but this sounds very similar to something you can earn by just playing WvW or PvP... and I even think a system like this (not cash shop) was available for PvP characters in the original Guild Wars. You play these modes, earn currency, and can buy the skills you had to unlock for PvP characters without playing the PvE portion of the game. My biggest issue is that "Random hero challenge" Could be some stupid Core challenge and someone who paid 50 gems only gets 1 point while someone getting an expansion grants 10 HP. Considering people who have completed everything have enough for the next elite specialization without needing extra points this seems to be pointed directly towards alts or people who have no interest and doing map completion (which already has its rewards)

Is it a trap for someone who thinks they need the points? Sure, but considering I have currency to do the same from the 2-3 nights I played WvW or PvP makes me wonder if they are just providing a second method for something players could already do.

[DeanBB.4268]

6 minutes ago, Hsanrb.1570 said:

... My biggest issue is that "Random hero challenge" Could be some stupid Core challenge and someone who paid 50 gems only gets 1 point while someone getting an expansion grants 10 HP. ...

It states that it unlocks an expansion HP, so a random 10-pointer. But, it could still be one you just walk up to and push F.

[Dopamine.6324]

1 hour ago, Assolador.3598 said:

ok, I got your point, but with that said, black desert is not p2w right? everything is grindable there

person says hello in ghillie suit

unobtainable by person who dont swipe and gives clear advantage on pvp oh sheet

[Cuks.8241]

2 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

I wish there was less disingenuity in the appropriation of terms.  The term, Pay-to-Win, has very negative associations in the gaming community.  When first coined, it was in reference to the selling of combat power in games with PvP elements when that power was either not available in game at all, or available in game only via  massive grind.  Essentially, it referred to people winning in competitive combat with other players not through skill, but by virtue of having splashed cash.

What happens in threads like these is that people use the term because: the game has done something that they don't like; the new thing can involve spending cash; and they want a term with the heaviest negative connotations to make their point.  Thus, the selling of HP unlocks is labelled pay-to-win when it meets none of the criteria from which the original meaning came.  This is disingenuous.

Don't like something?  Fine.  Post about it.  Just stop misappropriating a term because you can't be bothered to come up with some new term to label the behavior you dislike.

As for me?  There's a lot about GW2, particularly more recent GW2, that I dislike.  Selling HP unlocks, though?  Not even on my radar.  Obtaining HP in game is so trivial as to be inconsequential.  Could.  Not.  Care.  Less. 

First of all I couldn't care less about HP unlocks. In truth I don't care what they put in gem stores at all as long as it doesn't give advantage in pvp. That is the only thing I would care in any game. Pve I couldnt care less if someone get ahead of me in pve.

I agree with your post. But you can also look at it from another pov (my pov). You even mentioned "only available via massive grind". You can skip a lot of grind in gw2 by paying for it. And I don't mean cosmetics. Why should Anet and NCsoft get away with it just because it comes in small doses? We came through small doses to this situation in today's games with loot boxes and pay for power and pay 2 skip everywhere. There is no advantage for gamer customers to try to downplay these practices. Digging our own holes as they just become more and more natural. 

[draconicrose.6213]

I'm just adding my voice to those who don't like this change. I've seen many games which are P2W and the most common type lets free players get the same gear and bonuses, but through more gameplay time and effort. Hero Points might be a soft example, but they are still very much P2W, same as the waypoint unlocker. I was hoping the WP unlocker would be the last of its type, but clearly that's not the case. I fear that they are trying to slowly boil the frog, starting with softball stuff like this and then ramping it up. After they sold us the wizard's vault as a way to get better rewards from gameplay (and gave us 1 mount skin) and then decided to just give us copy-paste items I have completely lost faith in their monetization. I am firmly in the doomer camp with this now.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

18 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I agree with your post. But you can also look at it from another pov (my pov). You even mentioned "only available via massive grind". You can skip a lot of grind in gw2 by paying for it. And I don't mean cosmetics. Why should Anet and NCsoft get away with it just because it comes in small doses? We came through small doses to this situation in today's games with loot boxes and pay for power and pay 2 skip everywhere. There is no advantage for gamer customers to try to downplay these practices. Digging our own holes as they just become more and more natural. 

There's grind in GW2?  OK.  I guess the "Return to" achievements for the Lege Amulet would qualify.  Are you talking farming gold as the grind?  Maybe we just see the game differently.  FWIW, though, my main point was the misappropriation of the term P2W.  No issues with people not liking this turn of events, just for dog's sake call it something else.

Are you suggesting I should care about this because of precedent?  I guess I should have started by caring about L80 boosts and WP unlocks.  Truth, though, after caring about things like declining story quality, copy-pasta meta events, boon-ball and less value for money with each XPac, I am all out of cares.

[Greymantle.9168]

Play enough WvW, and it's the same thing. I've unlocked plenty of elite specs via the heroics currency that seems to update for each expansion. So what if people want to pay, to do the exact same thing? If it doesn't affect you, don't worry about/don't do it.

[SpyderArachnid.5619]

2 hours ago, Biziut.3594 said:

(Whisperimg mode enabled) oy! WvW players out there. Just keep quiet about your Hero Points skip. If op finds out he will make another topic, and belive me, this dude speaks for the whole COMMUNITY. So his word is your word and if he will want your skip to not exist, you will want it too. So ANet will have to bend the knee and delete it.

First rule of the WvW club, there is no testomonies currency. xd

I'm the OP, and I already know about the WvW stuff. I've always known about it. I never said anything needed to be removed.

I don't speak for everyone, I never did. I just made a post about it giving my own opinion on this. Please don't put words in my mouth and act like you know me.

I just brought up this discussion to see what others felt about it, and it derailed into P2W drama and then I think it got merged with another thread.

[Ashen.2907]

I could see someone with many alts finding value in this. My wife, for example, has half a dozen guardians. Most of them only have at most one or two elite specs unlocked. Different specs for each. Having Dragonhunter unlocked on six characters instead of three doesn't much seem like a gamebreaking issue to me. It isnt pay to win. It has no impact on other players. It generates revenue for the company without being at all necessary (Ive lost track of how many thousands of the WvW heroics currency I have).

[Zebulous.2934]

Hmm how does this compare to Diablo Immortal's monetization?

[Ashen.2907]

Just now, Zebulous.2934 said:

Hmm how does this compare to Diablo Immortal's monetization?

A completely optional store item that provides nothing that you cannot get, easily at that, by playing the game casually?

[bossdonut.1938]

ESO has been selling "map completes" for years already

 

same for FF14 actually you can pay to skip all previous expax and boost a job to max level

Edited November 29, 2023 by bossdonut.1938

[Randulf.7614]

Its certainly not a new trend and not one exclusive to Anet who has resisted the worst excesses so far. And on the plus side it does keep money flowing in to keep the last few years of the game going, but it is sad to see the games industry over the last decade or so sink to selling content skips. As big as gaming has become, it hasn't done so without tarnishing its integrity along the way what with this and lootboxes etc.

Right, let me get down off the old soapbox (takes longer these days mind you...)

[Zebulous.2934]

Hmm, slippery slope fallacy. 

Now, if they start selling enhancements that double loot drops or that double chest loot.  That would be alarming.