28 November 2023 Hammer change discussion

[Yasai.3549]

I really like the new Field of the Mist. It feels really really nice but unfortunately imo it doesn't change Hammer's situation much for other content besides WvW zerging, situational sPVP and generic Open World. Appreciate Anet taking another look at Hammer but man I'm kinda disappointed in its performance still. 

Hammerbolt is still slow as ever, terrain still eats up your CoR even if it's just a slight elevation change (eg. steps) and well DTH is still DTH.

For the record, I managed to kill 1 roamer (I'm 100% sure he's roaming in zerg gear) in WvW with the Hammer changes, but it's mostly just dodging them and dropping 4 and 3 on his butt until he started running and I chased with Hammerbolt. Any skilled player is not gonna die to this. At all. 
 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Shao.7236]

I don't know how you play with it but even before the changes I could win any fights that didn't involve mega condition spam so arguably either you are missing the mark or playing with Jalis greatly improves Hammer relevancy to which nobody ever does unless it's Renegade Shortbow or something alike.

It's fine as it is and I don't want anymore changes that could power creep the thing, 4th skill sustain is instant cast which is a HUUUUUUUGE thing to have now, this is 100% extra sustain for what I already could manage because the following of the skill can be used to remove blinds.

The weapon is arguably on the side of mind games a lot but it hits hard and that compensates enough. Prior to the update I did mention that the complexity will deter people no matter what they do with it but that should not be an excuse to rework the weapon if by just a small stretch of big brain I can make it work, to me this is an apparent skill issue in the end because of it.

 

[Yasai.3549]

7 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

I don't know how you play with it but even before the changes I could win any fights that didn't involve mega condition spam so arguably either you are missing the mark or playing with Jalis greatly improves Hammer relevancy to which nobody ever does unless it's Renegade Shortbow or something alike.

It's fine as it is and I don't want anymore changes that could power creep the thing, 4th skill sustain is instant cast which is a HUUUUUUUGE thing to have now, this is 100% extra sustain for what I already could manage because the following of the skill can be used to remove blinds.

The weapon is arguably on the side of mind games a lot but it hits hard and that compensates enough. Prior to the update I did mention that the complexity will deter people no matter what they do with it but that should not be an excuse to rework the weapon if by just a small stretch of big brain I can make it work, to me this is an apparent skill issue in the end because of it.

 

It's one thing to talk skill and mastery of the weapon, it's another to talk about state of the weapon itself. I tend to not try to mix both because player skill levels vary greatly while the condition of the weapon is experienced by all. Hammer factoring all properties, still feel rather clunky. 

As I said, the new FotM is REALLY GOOD. Actually very good, and I like it.

I still feel Hammerbolt is way too slow. It doesn't even match the 1s casting animation so listed, it actually feels longer like 1.25 due to the aftercast. And yea, DTH is DTH. Realistically it's a dead skill in most duels.

I play Core Jalis/Shiro(swapped with Mallyx sometimes) and yea, Hammer still feels the massive clunk. It's just not that great of a ranged power option for Revenant yet, at least for roaming and dueling. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[arazoth.7290]

hammer is great now for openworld, WvW, spvp. People that still find it cluncky, need to practice little bit more till its gone. Once you begin to master it, it will stop feeling like that.

Hammer is an awesome weapon and shouldn't need more changes imo or else there will come indeed a power creep.

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

It's one thing to talk skill and mastery of the weapon, it's another to talk about state of the weapon itself. I tend to not try to mix both because player skill levels vary greatly while the condition of the weapon is experienced by all. Hammer factoring all properties, still feel rather clunky. 

As I said, the new FotM is REALLY GOOD. Actually very good, and I like it.

I still feel Hammerbolt is way too slow. It doesn't even match the 1s casting animation so listed, it actually feels longer like 1.25 due to the aftercast. And yea, DTH is DTH. Realistically it's a dead skill in most duels.

I play Core Jalis/Shiro(swapped with Mallyx sometimes) and yea, Hammer still feels the massive clunk. It's just not that great of a ranged power option for Revenant yet, at least for roaming and dueling. 

The best way I can put it is, Hammer is like that one snack that you just can't go without some form of dipping.

If you take the snack without it, the taste is really disappointing, but add anything and it turns into the best thing you ever had.

I call Hammer snack because all of the skills are so cheap energy wise, recently after coming someone actually complained about me using Jade Wind so much, Jade Wind being the dipping.

I'm sure you'll see where I'm coming from soon enough, however I think Hammer is great for any situations if you have what it takes to back it up, even in Duels.

Always use the hammer like you have a big smack down to go for, never any different. It feels less clunky once you always deliver everything in one big package which the Hammer really shines at for the cheap skills, keeping everything for a big smack down means lot of energy and lot of energy if things go wrong means lot of sustain.

 

[Yasai.3549]

2 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

The best way I can put it is, Hammer is like that one snack that you just can't go without some form of dipping.

If you take the snack without it, the taste is really disappointing, but add anything and it turns into the best thing you ever had.

I call Hammer snack because all of the skills are so cheap energy wise, recently after coming someone actually complained about me using Jade Wind so much, Jade Wind being the dipping.

I'm sure you'll see where I'm coming from soon enough, however I think Hammer is great for any situations if you have what it takes to back it up, even in Duels.

Always use the hammer like you have a big smack down to go for, never any different. It feels less clunky once you always deliver everything in one big package which the Hammer really shines at for the cheap skills, keeping everything for a big smack down means lot of energy and lot of energy if things go wrong means lot of sustain.

 

To that I can only say it can be better.

And I really do think even small changes can make it so much better. Who doesn't want a snack that's just better? 
I think I identified the culprit of Hammerbolt's slowness too: it's the windup that takes 1s, but the bolt itself doesn't leave the player after this 1s is up. This isn't the case for most other 1200 range weapons, which have the projectile leave the player immediately, but undergo the cooldown so that it can be used again. (which btw, most weapons are 0.75s) This makes the bolt still leave the player "late" even with things like Quickness affecting the player. 

I'm thinking now, will it make an immensely huge difference if the animation was changed so that Hammerbolt leaves the player faster, but still take the 1s to cooldown before the next bolt can be fired? 

[Shao.7236]

5 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

To that I can only say it can be better.

And I really do think even small changes can make it so much better. Who doesn't want a snack that's just better? 
I think I identified the culprit of Hammerbolt's slowness too: it's the windup that takes 1s, but the bolt itself doesn't leave the player after this 1s is up. This isn't the case for most other 1200 range weapons, which have the projectile leave the player immediately, but undergo the cooldown so that it can be used again. (which btw, most weapons are 0.75s) This makes the bolt still leave the player "late" even with things like Quickness affecting the player. 

I'm thinking now, will it make an immensely huge difference if the animation was changed so that Hammerbolt leaves the player faster, but still take the 1s to cooldown before the next bolt can be fired? 

I always and only use it if there's benefits that follows it. Such as Quickness or a field to combo with.

They gutted IO a while ago which made the skill way better and there's not many options to fix that now, however against anything that's glassy, with Quickness Hammer Bolt simply shreds so it's not something I'd change without thinking.

The permanent Piercing and 100% chance to proj finish is pretty unique as an AA skill.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Shao.7236

[Yasai.3549]

17 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

I always and only use it if there's benefits that follows it. Such as Quickness or a field to combo with.

They gutted IO a while ago which made the skill way better and there's not many options to fix that now, however against anything that's glassy, with Quickness Hammer Bolt simply shreds so it's not something I'd change without thinking.

The permanent Piercing and 100% chance to proj finish is pretty unique as an AA skill.

Putting Hammerbolt aside, I still think CoR could use some polish. Do you have any wishlists if allowed to do anything with it? I'm choosing to ignore balance worries here, so if there's anything you would do with CoR, what would you do with it? 

Personally, I'd just change it to a small AoE which rains hammers down with cripple. 

[arazoth.7290]

3 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Putting Hammerbolt aside, I still think CoR could use some polish. Do you have any wishlists if allowed to do anything with it? I'm choosing to ignore balance worries here, so if there's anything you would do with CoR, what would you do with it? 

Personally, I'd just change it to a small AoE which rains hammers down with cripple. 

nope, what it is doing is more then fine, heavy hit.

What could be changed is to unbug it now too on uneven terrain, that is the only inconvenience left.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I like using it to pick off mobs in open world now at least. 

[Esufer.8762]

12 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I really like the new Field of the Mist. It feels really really nice but unfortunately imo it doesn't change Hammer's situation much for other content besides WvW zerging, situational sPVP and generic Open World. Appreciate Anet taking another look at Hammer but man I'm kinda disappointed in its performance still. 

Hammerbolt is still slow as ever, terrain still eats up your CoR even if it's just a slight elevation change (eg. steps) and well DTH is still DTH.

For the record, I managed to kill 1 roamer (I'm 100% sure he's roaming in zerg gear) in WvW with the Hammer changes, but it's mostly just dodging them and dropping 4 and 3 on his butt until he started running and I chased with Hammerbolt. Any skilled player is not gonna die to this. At all. 
 

I was super surprised to see the new tighter-to-your-character hitbox on CoR, felt great - until I tried to use hammer to actually kill anything. Even the most gentle change in elevation wildly changed where it was aiming, and I found myself actually going OOC to change back to shortbow on my second fight.

[Yasai.3549]

15 minutes ago, Esufer.8762 said:

I was super surprised to see the new tighter-to-your-character hitbox on CoR, felt great - until I tried to use hammer to actually kill anything. Even the most gentle change in elevation wildly changed where it was aiming, and I found myself actually going OOC to change back to shortbow on my second fight.

The CoR really needs to be fixed, or failing that, just reworked. It's the only clink left to iron out if people are really okay with Hammerbolt being slower than grandma to come out. 

[Esufer.8762]

Just now, Yasai.3549 said:

The CoR really needs to be fixed, or failing that, just reworked. It's the only clink left to iron out if people are really okay with Hammerbolt being slower than grandma to come out. 

At this point I would prefer if it was just "target an enemy, do an attack, make a ground aoe between you and the target" because unless you're on the equivalent of a perfectly flat basketball court it's gonna target whatever it pleases anyway

As for Hammerbolt I can only assume that they're assuming that it's always going to be under quickness because of the primary environment that it's used (WvW zergs) that's keeping it the way it is?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

New field of mists actually hits quite hard and the life steal is an added bonus. Will try to zerg with vindi a bit more in the future. I'm just a zerker bow sucker since warr main.

[Yasai.3549]

45 minutes ago, Esufer.8762 said:

As for Hammerbolt I can only assume that they're assuming that it's always going to be under quickness because of the primary environment that it's used (WvW zergs) that's keeping it the way it is?

Yea, could be. But honestly Hammerbolt is the only weapon skill that functions the way it does (which is the projectile leaving the weapon after the animation plays out, and the animation essentially being the cast cooldown) really don't like how it is though. 

[Sereath.1428]

2 hours ago, Esufer.8762 said:

I was super surprised to see the new tighter-to-your-character hitbox on CoR, felt great - until I tried to use hammer to actually kill anything. Even the most gentle change in elevation wildly changed where it was aiming, and I found myself actually going OOC to change back to shortbow on my second fight.

Hahah, yeah exactly how I felt and how I expected it to be.

[Gazrul.3086]

19 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

WvW

It's only good for organized zergs, outside of that it sees zero play. And even in zergs it feels bad to use as the auto attacks are slow and pathetic and can be blocked/reflected and hammer 5 is utterly useless because the animation is so scripted and obvious that the enemy would have to be a complete moron to get stunned by it, and that's provided they don't already have stability provided by their support anyway. So only hammer 2, 3 and arguably 4 are useful, but once you've used those you are either useless until they're available again or you swap to greatsword for the push. 

Hammer 5 needs to be an instant stun, and its auto attacks either have to not count as projectiles or need a serious damage buff for how slow they are. 

[Buran.3796]

   I've tried the hammer in a beta character with marauder weapons + armor and dragon trinkets (one marauder to cap the crit chance), with force sigils and a pure dps PvE Vindi build (100% cc and ~230% cd). Tried the damage in the starting area (the shore near the waypoint) in Siren's landing. The attacks hit high and albeit not as high as my Deadeye with F1+kneeling + rifle #3 the autos pushed near 4k against the zombies. So maybe not as fast, but you can delete trash mobs in a couple of autos at no energy costor a single higher cooldown skill (#3, #5). So in PvE has some farming usage.

   Now what intrigues me is the WvW: obviously you need a power build since the hammer wastes any stat related to conditions, and that means no celestial, so you can get good HP with around 22k in marauder + dragon and still cap crit chance and have like 220% crit damage with ~2450 to ~2650 power in WvW depending on rune (Dragonhuner or Scholar; you can also run Surge for mobility at the cost of lower crit chance and crit damade but still cap cc swaping some infusions from power to precission). 

   But to reach high damage numbers you need to run Invocation for Roiling Mist and Devastation for the damage traits. That will mean no no Salvation for the defensive buffs and cleanses unless you take the PvP approach: since you can't max crit chance there some players run vision sigils for granted crits on swap (but only for 3 attacks). So that leaves me with some questions which I would to ask to some hammer enjoyers, as Shao, Azaroth or even Justine:

* Which mele weapon/s to run? I'm slanted towards greatsword due the mix of mobility, block and high burst...

* Which legends? For core Shiro + Jalis seems the natural choices; Herald opens Glint and Vindi the alliance.

* ...And that brings me to the final question: to the specs worth to be taken? I don't see much value in Renegade with hammer since its damage is hybrid in nature and is reflected in the traits, and alacrity has low impact and small duration in WvW (at least at roaming). Herald increases base HP (probably uneeded) and Glint would provide mobility, easy access to fury and good cc, but I'm not sure if will be enough even against the core (maybe stronger vs power builds, but core would have free car with either Salvation or Retribution). Of course I maybe wrong and Devastation or Invocation aren't needed...   Finally, Vindicator has some tradeoff, but it can absolutely deal vs condition based builds, specially paried with Salvation.

  I don't think that power hammer Rev would be as powerful at WvW roaming as cele Vindicator or even cele Renegade (and maybe condi Herald), since despite the range advantage those builds have more armor, more boon duration and better self sustain. But maybe after this changes could be in a better place, specially Vindi variants due the resilience vs enemy condi builds. Thoughs?

[Yasai.3549]

33 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I've tried the hammer in a beta character with marauder weapons + armor and dragon trinkets (one marauder to cap the crit chance), with force sigils and a pure dps PvE Vindi build (100% cc and ~230% cd). Tried the damage in the starting area (the shore near the waypoint) in Siren's landing. The attacks hit high and albeit not as high as my Deadeye with F1+kneeling + rifle #3 the autos pushed near 4k against the zombies. So maybe not as fast, but you can delete trash mobs in a couple of autos at no energy costor a single higher cooldown skill (#3, #5). So in PvE has some farming usage.

   Now what intrigues me is the WvW: obviously you need a power build since the hammer wastes any stat related to conditions, and that means no celestial, so you can get good HP with around 22k in marauder + dragon and still cap crit chance and have like 220% crit damage with ~2450 to ~2650 power in WvW depending on rune (Dragonhuner or Scholar; you can also run Surge for mobility at the cost of lower crit chance and crit damade but still cap cc swaping some infusions from power to precission). 

   But to reach high damage numbers you need to run Invocation for Roiling Mist and Devastation for the damage traits. That will mean no no Salvation for the defensive buffs and cleanses unless you take the PvP approach: since you can't max crit chance there some players run vision sigils for granted crits on swap (but only for 3 attacks). So that leaves me with some questions which I would to ask to some hammer enjoyers, as Shao, Azaroth or even Justine:

* Which mele weapon/s to run? I'm slanted towards greatsword due the mix of mobility, block and high burst...

* Which legends? For core Shiro + Jalis seems the natural choices; Herald opens Glint and Vindi the alliance.

* ...And that brings me to the final question: to the specs worth to be taken? I don't see much value in Renegade with hammer since its damage is hybrid in nature and is reflected in the traits, and alacrity has low impact and small duration in WvW (at least at roaming). Herald increases base HP (probably uneeded) and Glint would provide mobility, easy access to fury and good cc, but I'm not sure if will be enough even against the core (maybe stronger vs power builds, but core would have free car with either Salvation or Retribution). Of course I maybe wrong and Devastation or Invocation aren't needed...   Finally, Vindicator has some tradeoff, but it can absolutely deal vs condition based builds, specially paried with Salvation.

  I don't think that power hammer Rev would be as powerful at WvW roaming as cele Vindicator or even cele Renegade (and maybe condi Herald), since despite the range advantage those builds have more armor, more boon duration and better self sustain. But maybe after this changes could be in a better place, specially Vindi variants due the resilience vs enemy condi builds. Thoughs?

Try Mallyx/Jalis. It's actually quite strong for a defensive set up and you're playing Hammer more like a juggernaut who swings hard but not very fast or anything. 

Core Hammer/GS with Jalis Mallyx, Invocation 121 - Retribution 132 - Salvation 322. 

Jalis: Your defensive Legend, lets you tank alot of damage while whittling enemies down with 2 3 4 and autos, RotG for anti condi burst

Mallyx: Your offensive Legend. CTA for quick CC so you can lay down a burst with 2 3 4 and the magic here is a second bursty heal and Upkeep Darkfield for tasty, tasty Hammerbolt life siphons.

Try it out. It works in zergs and smallscale. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Phyb.6704]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I've tried the hammer in a beta character with marauder weapons + armor and dragon trinkets (one marauder to cap the crit chance), with force sigils and a pure dps PvE Vindi build (100% cc and ~230% cd). Tried the damage in the starting area (the shore near the waypoint) in Siren's landing. The attacks hit high and albeit not as high as my Deadeye with F1+kneeling + rifle #3 the autos pushed near 4k against the zombies. So maybe not as fast, but you can delete trash mobs in a couple of autos at no energy costor a single higher cooldown skill (#3, #5). So in PvE has some farming usage.

Herald got buffed. 
5% to 7% and 15% to 20% for the dmg from upkeep skills. 
That means with herald you can get 35% bonus dmg from upkeep. ---> But go for 28% and pop strength facet for 15% to you get 43% bonus dmg.
Add 20% from invocation and 25% from destruction. 
Add 5% from weapon buff.
You can basically get 2x dmg and then crit for 2x for 4x total dmg. Then hit hammer 4 for lifesteal combo field and hit auto attack. You throw lifesteal bolts and hammer bolts. You can easily hit auto attacks for 10k to 20k in pve. Have someone give you quickness and its a lot of dmg from ranged well you toss out boons.

PVP herald is still 5% and 15% tho. 
 

[nosleepdemon.1368]

14 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Hahah, yeah exactly how I felt and how I expected it to be.

I was basically unable to hit anything with it in WvW. Actually I found it hard to land hammer auto as well, but it did land occasionally. I'm not sure where Scepter fits in WvW either, it requires you to use your Legends for gap closing. I did have a laugh at the almighty skill descriptions. You know you might have complicated things when it fills your screen height...

[Kotori.3516]

Prior to update 2 skill had a portion of the line that would hit under and behind you, and testing on golem after patch this is still the case, it damages the golem behind you. What exactly is the offset they were talking about? Hammer 3 also looks weird, you do not even land in the circle (though damage is still applied).

Edited December 1, 2023 by Kotori.3516

[Jaykay.9641]

Awesome! Another Hammer thread. Time for my obligatory post I will keep posting until something is done with Hammer 2 to be changed to the underlined standard below!

On 7/8/2022 at 6:50 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Engineer

In Engineer, we've updated skills on their core Rifle weapon to modernize it to more recent gameplay standards and to better support power builds.

One of these standards is that your #2 skill should be damage-positive if possible- something you want to use whenever it is available as a regular part of your gameplay. For this reason, we've switched the location of Blunderbuss and Net Shot, so that Blunderbuss is now on #2, and Net Shot on #3. Blunderbuss has had its cooldown reduced, and now additionally applies Might to the Engineer and nearby allies, making this skill key for regular use in combat.

Look, Hammer 4 is great now; it's an excellent change. But until Hammer 2 is reworked to the above standards, the weapon is going to suffer. It's that simple. This is the biggest issue, so let's get it fixed.

On 11/30/2023 at 4:50 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

Putting Hammerbolt aside, I still think CoR could use some polish. Do you have any wishlists if allowed to do anything with it? I'm choosing to ignore balance worries here, so if there's anything you would do with CoR, what would you do with it? 

Personally, I'd just change it to a small AoE which rains hammers down with cripple. 

My dream scenario would be CoR to create an Ice Field to maximize the AA finishers and dual blasts from Hammer 3, 5. Very unlikely, but I can dream.

But your last part about a simple AoE with cripple is in the realm what I was thinking - All I really want is a Mesmer Greatsword Mind Stab (GS 3) variation for Rev Hammer 2. To put some Rev flavor on it, I picture a new Hammer 2 to have the current CoR Animation that does a small amount of PBAoE damage on cast finish and then has a 2nd eruption  at the skillshot circle AoE target for additional 1200 ranged damage. Why do I think this is better?

• The current cast time on CoR and the long travel time of the cascade is so slow and is unreliable at 1200 range. Needs to be more snappy. A quick PBAoE followed by a 240 radius target AoE damage would be faster.
• A circle AoE can be cast on walls for siege offense. It's so ironic that the only game mode where an AoE weapon like Rev Hammer is truly used in (WvW) cannot use it's 2 ability on wall siege. This blows my mind.
• Players have asked for Hammer to do some light melee damage for guaranteed damage as all its abilities are skillshots with long cast times. Again, makes the ability more reliable especially in melee. My version listed can also double hit enemies in close range if the get hit in the PBAoE and the delayed eruption.

Final thoughts:

• PvE damage on Hammer? - cool.
• Hammer 4 changes? - super cool!
• Hammer 3? - fine as is and I'm starting to appreciate it more. Don't fix what isn't broken.
• Hammer AA's? - eh, we make it work. Enjoy the 100% finishers
• Hammer 5? - give us damage back in competitive please? If not, let it inflict like 10-15 Vuln for hitting this to setup follow up.
• Hammer 2? - Fix Change this broken ability to something RELIABLE!

Change Hammer 2 and you change players' perception and usability of this weapon. Get to it Anet.

[Spudzie.5486]

The problem with hammer in competitive modes isn’t the hammer itself. It’s shortbow. Now I don’t want shortbow nerfed, but let’s be honest here. In a competitive environment, why would you take a slow ranged damage weapon like hammer when you could instead take a much faster weapon with power/condi that also features soft cc/hard cc? With weaponmaster added, every spec has an excuse now to not take hammer outside of Zerg.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Spudzie.5486

[Buran.3796]

4 hours ago, Spudzie.5486 said:

 In a competitive environment, why would you take a slow ranged damage weapon like hammer when you could instead take a much faster weapon with power/condi that also features soft cc/hard cc? With weaponmaster added, every spec has an excuse now to not take hammer outside of Zerg.

 In WvW short bow is overall stronger (specially at roaming) not by itself but because can take advantage of celestial stats, which are wasted in a hammmer build, so a celestial short bow build would have always advantage over a power hammer build given the same amount of skill. But in PvP where celestial stats are not available short bow Revenants usually run power stats anyway, and in that landscape hammer could be competitive. Hammer also has more defenses than short bow and in a teamfight Field of the Mist could provide more value (I mean, in a universe in which professions didn't spam anti-projectile skills kin a blink).

   Imo the solution to really improve hammer should be making CoR a volumetric effect: you cover a volume and if there's a wireframe/hitbox contat it should be detected. The same with short bow #4 and #5 (and most of AoE in the game: Spirit Crush sometimes doesn't allow you to place the AoE in the floor in some PvP maps just because there's a sligh slant or a small 3d object protuding in the topography). Is incredible that the game sometimes doesn't allow you to use fairly those skills but still you can use the downstate push to place people inside the walls and ruin a match...