More Build flexibility please. Weapon Swap, Toolkit Skill Picker

[Nero.7369]

Suggestion A: Enable Weapon Swap in Combat when no Kit is equipped.

Many build use 1-4 Kits.

Would really like to see more love and options for kitless builds. But I feel like the missing weapon swap is keeping engi behind.

SD Engi in Core times was really lovely imo. And even better with Holo, but got kinda nerfed to the ground years back. It kinda is okaish now in some matchups. But in others absolutely pain.

And ofc there shouldn't be a 3Kit + Weapon Swap DPS Rota in PvE. 

Suggestion B: Don't fixate Toolkit skills on Chosen Utility Skills, let us Pick our Toolbelt Skills.

There are many interesting utilities but often those come with Toolkit Skills we don't need. Specially when we have to use kit's the selection of utilities in a competitive environment is hard, because we need stun breaks, cleanse, stab, boons and already sacrificed a slot.

It would help a lot if we could pick those freely. At least F2-F4. Being able to pick Medkit Toolkit Skill with another Heal than Med Kit would mess the balance for sure.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Nero.7369

[Artemis.8034]

Im all for engi and ele getting weapon swaps. After all this time and every other proff having them esp revenant its like anet just discounts ele and engi altogether.

[DeanBB.4268]

16 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

Im all for engi and ele getting weapon swaps. After all this time and every other proff having them esp revenant its like anet just discounts ele and engi altogether.

Do you play Elementalist? You know they have 4 attunements and 5 skills, so 20 weapon skills. Weapon swap would add up to 20 more.

If Anet could figure out the Engi weapon swap when no kits are equipped, that'd be cool. But it would be confusing for new players.

[Artemis.8034]

3 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Do you play Elementalist? You know they have 4 attunements and 5 skills, so 20 weapon skills. Weapon swap would add up to 20 more.

If Anet could figure out the Engi weapon swap when no kits are equipped, that'd be cool. But it would be confusing for new players.

You do know that revenant didnt have weapon swap because people thought it would be too overwhelming. Well how times have changed , what was considered too much to play is suddenly reworked to be playable. They even said it wouldnt work because rev would be annoying unfun and clumsy...umm yeah no. I think people will adjust, besides not everyone plays their proffs to the fullest anyway should we just nerf everything to 3 buttons?

[Jerus.4350]

22 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

You do know that revenant didnt have weapon swap because people thought it would be too overwhelming. Well how times have changed , what was considered too much to play is suddenly reworked to be playable. They even said it wouldnt work because rev would be annoying unfun and clumsy...umm yeah no. I think people will adjust, besides not everyone plays their proffs to the fullest anyway should we just nerf everything to 3 buttons?

Not sure that’s the best example when Rev builds still largely camp one weapon set with a staff on the second just for skill 5.

[Sobx.1758]

Nonsense, classes that specifically have mechnics aimed at substituting weapon swap shouldn't now receive weapon swap back while keeping those mechanics. Want a weapon swap? Play one of the other 7 classes. 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

I am against this because I picked Engineer( and Ele) because they had no weapon swap. Yes, I know Engineer has the kits, but switching is not as bad in my opinion as the normal weapon swaps. Especially for condi mech which only uses grenade kit. I always thought the idea of weapon swaps is kitten, and I still do on the other classes that I play that have it. I just accepted it for them begrudgingly even though I hate it. I think weapon swapping looks stupid as hell in combat. It just looks janky. So, I am against this idea 100%. If you want to weapon swap, go play another profession that can do it. There is more than enough.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Doctor Hide.6345

[NotABandwagoner.9654]

Redacted

Edited February 15 by NotABandwagoner.9654

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, NotABandwagoner.9654 said:

Engineers do not have any such mechanic. Equipping a kit is merely an option and is not an intrinsic part of its design, unlike the Elementalist.

No benefit is gained from equipping a kit:

They do, kits act as weapon swap with no cooldowns and toolbelt makes each of the equipped heal/utility/elite skill into 2, which does include kits. All of this is rather clearly aimed at substituting the actual weapon swap.

[Obtena.7952]

The class having a mechanic someone doesn't use is not a compelling reason to change that mechanics just to make up for any disadvantage that exists for not using it.  That's the whole point of making choosing a class a meaningful exercise as a player. 

There isn't any way a claim can be made that the kits aren't a mechanic of the class, regardless of how anyone feels about them either. 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[EdwinLi.1284]

5 hours ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Do you play Elementalist? You know they have 4 attunements and 5 skills, so 20 weapon skills. Weapon swap would add up to 20 more.

If Anet could figure out the Engi weapon swap when no kits are equipped, that'd be cool. But it would be confusing for new players.

I honestly still feel since the base game release of GW2 that the Weapon Swap could have been simply the Kit button for Engineer.  The Kits are literally meant to be Engineer's alt weapons to their main weapon to begin with which is why Kits acts as our "weapon swap"

I know it will limit Engineer to 1 kit if they do but most of the time players are only using 1 kit unless they made a build where they literally play the Engineer like a Piano with multiple kits to switch around in.

Edited December 7, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284

[jason.1083]

From the beginning I was intrigued by the no weapon swap on Engineer. I doubt we really need one.

I've been playing kitless for almost 4 years now and even then it's not that bad, (take that with a pinch of salt cause I main Holo). 

For our inability to weapon-swap I'd rather our underpowered weapons get a bit of a buff and our weaker kits be brought up to standards.

[pbalint.1607]

Engineer *loses a utility slot* for skills of questionable usefulness...

Also, there's no thing for engies like the goodies eles get for attunement swapping like boons or healing...

[Yasai.3549]

20 hours ago, Nero.7369 said:

Suggestion A: Enable Weapon Swap in Combat when no Kit is equipped.

No. Use Toolkits which is literally the entire point of Engineer being its own Profession or suck it up. This is like an Ele going "I'm a fire main, now let me weapon swap because I imposed this restriction on myself".

Nonsensical, absolutely nonsensical. 

20 hours ago, Nero.7369 said:

Suggestion B: Don't fixate Toolkit skills on Chosen Utility Skills, let us Pick our Toolbelt Skills.

Wait behind Revenant. Been asking for customizable utility sets for years. Yea no, for very obvious reasons too. Your toobelt utility is there to supplement your utilities as a class mechanic, also directly relating to toolkits themselves. Don't get it twisted thinking it's just a 2nd utility set for you to customized. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Nero.7369]

On 12/7/2023 at 9:16 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

No. Use Toolkits which is literally the entire point of Engineer being its own Profession or suck it up. This is like an Ele going "I'm a fire main, now let me weapon swap because I imposed this restriction on myself".

Nonsensical, absolutely nonsensical. 

Wait behind Revenant. Been asking for customizable utility sets for years. Yea no, for very obvious reasons too. Your toobelt utility is there to supplement your utilities as a class mechanic, also directly relating to toolkits themselves. Don't get it twisted thinking it's just a 2nd utility set for you to customized. 

toolkits are not the only the point of the engineer. Cause there is stuff like necros shroud which also provides 5 skills for free. Or soulbeasts, dragonhunter,  willbenders which also got good 3 additional F-Skills. And if we want Sth like elexier u as a stun break, we get this incredible toolkit skills with 3 sec superspeed, which I don't need and want in that build.  And that's the case on many of those utility skill and toolkit dependencies.

It's the combination of tool belt skills and kits which were more specially to be engineer.  And I'm not talking about ele here at all that's a whole other topic. Could be interesting there as well yes. But much more complicated. For engineer.it.could be simply limited a check if you also have a kit with you.  

And no I am not restricting my self, but I'd guess sth like a hammer+rifle engi could be a lot of fun to play. 

"Wait behind rev" lol rev was released much after engineer. And yes I also asked for an utility skill pool per legend for the rev in beta. And there is no priority. 

Also rev beta without weapon swap was annoying for me.

Just making suggestions and provide ideas. The game changed a lot in those 10+ years. There is no reason why stuff like that can't change too. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Nero.7369

[Yasai.3549]

16 minutes ago, Nero.7369 said:

Oh yea toolkits are the point or engineer... Sure cause there seems stuff like necros who also get 5 skills for free.

You get 5 toolbelt utilities. So idk where you are finding the unfairness from when Necros also have a tradeoff for being unable to use any utilities while in Shroud. Oooo we gonna casually leave that out right, just to fit your argument. 

17 minutes ago, Nero.7369 said:

It's the combination of tool belt skills and kits which were more specially to be engineer.  And I'm not talking about ele here at all that's a whole other topic. Could be interesting there as well yes. But much more complicated. For engineer.it.could be simply limited a check if you also have a kit with you. 

Again back to the point: toolkits give you 5 skills, so how is that somehow discounting you of 1 utility when you get 6 skills in exchange. That's the trade off. Engineers can get more skills than any other class and you just want more. Not to mention every single one of these skills have individual cooldowns.

Like others said: if you find toolkits clunky the answer is to revisit and rework toolkits so that they are no longer clunky instead of begging for an intentional balance restriction to be changed just because you don't like using toolkits. Especially if you're throwing out flexibility as an excuse. Flexibility is one thing, actually disregarding balance restrictions is another. Last thing I want is see Engi being free to slot 5 stunbreaks into their Toolbelt while they have anything they want in utilities AND also be able to swap weapons, which by this thread goes, seems to be what everyone is hinting at. Absolute insanity. 
 

20 minutes ago, Nero.7369 said:

Just making suggestions and ideas. The game changed a lot in those 10+ years. There is no reason why stuff like that can't change too.

Change for change sake has never been a good excuse for breaking class identity and balance. You want an example? Anet lobotomizing Especs to fill Alac/Quick roles. 

 

 

[Nero.7369]

On 12/7/2023 at 8:50 AM, pbalint.1607 said:

Engineer *loses a utility slot* for skills of questionable usefulness...

Also, there's no thing for engies like the goodies eles get for attunement swapping like boons or healing...

Hey if you take tools and middle upper trait you also get goodies so it's fine 😉

Fun aside yea the depandancy is my biggest issue.

There are also other crazy ideas on my.minds, like  fixed toolkit slots. So we can always take two kits, and won't lose the utility slot anymore. But it wouldn't be that simple probably.

Imo the initial suggestions are simple wouldn't break the balance if only one is applies. Both changes without further adjustments might be a bit rough tho.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Nero.7369

[Nero.7369]

Quote

You get 5 toolbelt utilities. So idk where you are finding the unfairness from when Necros also have a tradeoff for being unable to use any utilities while in Shroud. Oooo we gonna casually leave that out right, just to fit your argument. 

I never said it's unfair. 

Also: harbinger can still use them, same for druid, both can weapon swap.

Yes we can't weapon swap but we have kits. So we can take those.  All fair.

Would be also fair if we can weapon swap when we don't use a kit. 

[MaLong.2079]

I don't want to craft another legendary weapon.  #engiesdontswap 😁

[Obtena.7952]

Weird ... one of the MOST flexible classes in the game, but needs more flex because some people don't want to use the mechanics that give that flex to the class. 

[Yasai.3549]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Weird ... one of the MOST flexible classes in the game, but needs more flex because some people don't want to use the mechanics that give that flex to the class. 

I'm all for QoL which Engi and Ele did receive one being able to hold onto a 2nd weapon set and swap them out of combat to save inventory space but give them an inch and they go for a mile. Imagine being a Warrior and refusing to use Burst and demand Anet give you a third weapon swap because you refuse to use Burst. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Perceptor.7189]

Short Answer: No

Long Answer: It wouln't fix a thing. Engie main problem it's the overstacked nature of kits and how every other skill outside them it's sub par because of it. Adding a weapons swap would be just another set of buttons in a already extence rotation, and, knowing anet, for just a even smaller increase of dps.

We need QoL changes?? Yes, but adding weapon swap it's not something that would benefit the class in a whole....

[Logos.3042]

Weapon swap would be fine if no use of utility kits.  But as said above, this would be confusing for new players, as would finding a way to put all kits in a weapon slot somehow.

no great answer, I’d love to have shield in an offset instead of a kit, personally, but I don’t see a clean way of doing this yet

[Sirvaleen.1379]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:59 AM, jason.1083 said:

For our inability to weapon-swap I'd rather our underpowered weapons get a bit of a buff and our weaker kits be brought up to standards.

This.

Engineer's current lack of flexibility in builds for some content won't be resolved by adding another weapon swap. You don't "fix" a class by changing its foundations. At best you'll homogenize, at worst you'll destroy the class.

We have a customized weapon swap, it's called "use kits". We don't need another one, we need the one we already have to be amended. It can be done with an upgrade work on some weapons and kits and/or giving us new non-support weapons so we're not pigeon-holed forever using the same weapon and grenade kit.

[Sindust.7059]

To people objecting to this, here is the issue... The game changed, but the kits have not. If we are not going to get a weapon swap, then ANet has to rework kits, so that they are actually strong enough and have enough utility to be a worthy substitute for a weapon. Or alternatively engi weapons have to be 2x as good in terms of utility compared to other classes, but if that happens, everyone will start crying "nerf engi" just like they did when mech got this treatment on release, because that would make engi easier to play than other classes.

And to give you an idea of how badly the kits need a revamp, and how little the devs care about them... You know how every direct CC skill in the game got a tooltip saying how much defiance break it does? Well, Tool Kit 5 is a pull, similar to axe 4 on ranger, and its tooltip says nothing about defiance break. That should tell you something about how badly it was forgotten. Also I don't know what Took Kit is supposed to be for. I guess tanking? But then it needs to have a hell of a lot more utility. I'm not even going to suggest anything, because the rework for this kit alone would take a page.

Also some of the other kits are very weird and don't really have a place in any build. For example Elixir Gun is only ever slotted for skill 5 which is a heal and condi cleanse. The other skills are a weird mix of condi and power skills that don't fit any build and are laughably weak to boot. This kit needs some purity of purpose. Either give it a lot more boons to make it a healer kit or buff its damage to be on par with pistols and add some damaging condis to skill 2 and 4 to make it a condi dps kit. The same is true for mortar kit. Literally just 1 useful skill.

Also Grenade Kit and Mortar Kit can't really be considered weapon substitutes since they don't have auto attack, even though it would make perfect sense to add it to skill 1 of both of these kits.

Med Kit: on mech you're giving up your big self-heal to only heal others. It functions ok for that, but no other spec gives up their healing skill. Med Kit skills 1-3 should also affect the engi himself to not be such a slap in the face. Or alternatively give mechs back the tool belt skills (one can dream).

Flamethrower: that's the only kit that actually feels like a complete weapon with a purpose, it just needs a small buff on skill 1 to be on par with pistol, and some additional effect(s) on skill 5, because the only effect being applying blind is so 2012 that it hurts. Maybe give it some CC or make it an explosion and a blast finisher.

And then there is bomb kit... Get rid of the delay between when the skill finishes casting and when the effect goes off, because if we let the bombs just explode at our feet, there is no point in having a fuse at all, and it would actually allow us to use it while moving. Also buff 1 to match hammer, otherwise it's pointless.