What if I told you there is an actual "I Win" combo in this game that makes it pointless for the target to have a keyboard? 🧪🐤💀

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

19 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

You should probably leave this discussion since you clearly have nothing useful to add at this point.

Okay then, let's talk.

20 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

The thief stigma is real.  I could have been on any other class I main that day and the outcome would almost certainly have been identical.  The only difference would be a lot less irrelevant noise in the responses.

Exactly, because it's a player issue and not an overperforming build issue. It just feels so much worse on thief because they are so fragile when denied their main source of damage mitigation, that being their mobility. I won't disagree that there is a lot of hate towards thieves, and stealth especially. But I assure you my comment was not born of a vendetta towards thief mechanics, but to highlight how this combo is particularly effective against the tools normally available to a thief, particularly when they prop up mediocre players.

20 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Everyone gets caught by surprise from time-to-time.  A stranger humbly shows two instances where they got caught and you and others make sweeping assumptions about their overall awareness and skill.  What if those were the only two times something like that has happened out of hundreds of hours?  For the record, this was the first time I've experienced the Magnet + Moa combo specifically--thousands of hours into WvW.  There's a first time for everyone, and it probably feels pretty similar: The only thing more stupefying than the total skill bar disable is the fact it can be done.  Until that day, I honestly did not know it was a thing.

You're literally posing the argument that the skill combination is so completely broken as to warrant a not so humble ranting on the forums, and yet we are to somehow infer this from it only happening to you one time in thousands of hours? Which is it? Could it be that the combo actually isn't that strong, and is incredibly difficult to land reliably, thereby justifying its potency when it actually does? As the loser in that encounter, you only see it when it works, you don't see the failed attempts and the practice going into pulling it off. As for the video, I don't know what else to say, both kills come from behind, off camera, on a distracted target, what else did you expect?

20 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

There are such things as dumb, degenerate, unhealthy, toxic skill interactions in complex game systems.  In my opinion, this is one of them.

Unfortunately for you, I and many others disagree with your opinion. I'm sure you knew this judging from your opening post as well, so I'm not sure why you got so indignant about the whole thing.

I stand by my original comment, sounds pretty salty to me.

[Ashen.2907]

Killing an opponent with a one-shot/instagib/whatever you want to call it from stealth disables their normal skill bar completely, and for longer than three seconds.

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 12/10/2023 at 5:56 AM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

✔️ Something, something, meme-build 

 ✔️ Something, something, day 1 elixir skill

✔️ Something, something, who plays core engi?

 ✔️ Something, something, just dodge

 ✔️ Something, something, glass build problems

✔️ Something, something, nerf teef

--

Now that that's out of the way...

I present to you the ultimate combo-wombo "I-win" button guaranteed not only to knock your opponent off their feet, but to literally give them an out-of-body experience as their keyboard dematerializes from beneath their fingers!

I present to you...

Toss Elixir X*

Still deleting even the cele-ist of opponents, without any ability to resist, like it's 2012!

*When used in combination with hard-CC.  Slotted separately.  Blindsiding engaged opponents and use of macros recommended for up to 99.99999% efficacy.  Please use responsibly.  These claims have not been evaluated by the ArenaNet Ministry of Balance and Fair Play.

 👉 In all seriousness, why is this a thing? 👈

Let's be real:

1. Realistically, Magnet is going to hit 99% of the time when used on an engaged/distracted opponent from out of view.  It's a 1,200-range, un-blockable pull.  One would almost have to try for it not to land.
2. Once Magnet hits, the target has literally a fraction of a second to react with a stun-break before getting Moa'd.  In the first case in the video, that window was a fleeting 0.5 seconds, determined by counting frames.  Anyone who thinks their reaction time would have been adequate when factoring in latency, render lag, and sheer surprise factor is deluding themselves.
3. Once Moa'd, the target's fate is sealed.  There is literally no button they can press for the duration of the Moa.  Their keyboard might as well be disconnected, and the player should feel free to get up and take a stretch.  Any build unable to tank the incoming burst is immediately downed.  Game over.

I can't think of any other "1-shot" combo that totally deprives the target use of their input device other than perhaps the Mesmer equivalent.  It's an unhealthy interaction between hard-CC + Moa resulting in degenerate gameplay.  Either skill alone is fine, but in combination, it's oppressive.

My suggestion would be that Moa skills remove any CC effect when landing.  A Moa'd player can be subsequently CC'd, but not initially have their skill bar replaced with bird skills AND have those bird skills locked out.  That's simply too much.

When you said core engineer and glass build I was worried it was gonna be a video of me...glad to see it wasn't.  The moa isn't why people are dying.  I do a magnet, crowbar, grenade combo all the time, rarely use moa with it, cause it isn't necessary.  On a side note, there is nothing wrong with moa, not on engineer, not on mesmer.  Every class has multiple builds that are just as oppressive.  Both times, the engi is off your screen with all cds available, the result would be the same with any other class' build built correctly for burst.  Your build is just as important as theirs.  I'm guessing berserker (maybe marauder) with all of 11-13k health.  Thief has access to perma-stealth, perma-blind, perma-superspeed, near perma-prot, if you daredevil you even get 3 dodges for free (cause why not), on top of the higest mobility in the game.  You just need to be more aware.  Regardless of class, if I instadown someone with a combo, I am going to pick them first in every encounter because I know I can instantly give my side an advantage.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 12/12/2023 at 8:20 AM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

From the update in the original post:

Once Magnet hits

I think you do need to play more Engi based on this statement alone.

[Sonork.2916]

Being able to instant kill an opponent while also locking them out of any reactions their class may have, is the sign of well-designed and balanced game, and isn't toxic at all.  -Anet?

Edited December 13, 2023 by Sonork.2916

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

Being able to instant kill an opponent while also locking them out of any reactions their class may have, is the sign of well-designed and balanced game, and isn't toxic at all.  -Anet?

Instant!? Oh boi. So what one shot ability instantly killed you. Damage output and numbers, what was your gear and armor? What did they use that you know?

[Sonork.2916]

8 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Instant!? Oh boi. So what one shot ability instantly killed you. Damage output and numbers, what was your gear and armor? What did they use that you know?

I mean, there is a video in the first post where the person dies in about 1.5 second after being pulled, did you miss it? or are you just being... ... you? XD

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

37 minutes ago, Sonork.2916 said:

I mean, there is a video in the first post where the person dies in about 1.5 second after being pulled, did you miss it? or are you just being... ... you? XD

As has been pointed out by several people now, there is a lot contributing to a quick kill here. By your reasoning fall damage is OP because it can kill you instantly.

1) The thief in the video is not looking at the Engineer before the pull.

2) The thief is using berserker stats, with at most marauder trinkets judging by their 16k HP with both borderlands bloodlust and the guild objective buff.

3) The thief makes no attempt to stun break the pull, granted they have a very short window here, but this is because they are caught completely by surprise.

4) The Engineer has got a really tight execution on their burst, my best guess would be:

• Get near the target and Throw Elixir S for stealth, use Elixir U for quickness.
• Cast Magnet Pull
• Precast Throw Elixir X so it lands at your feet right as the target arrives
• I'm not 100% here but I think the Engineer uses static shock or similar from the A.E.D toolbelt to initiate a 2s stun once they are in Moa and still recovering from the pull, otherwise Moa can evade.
• Swap off of Tool Kit back to Rifle likely triggering a Sigil of Vision to guarantee crits on the burst. (You can see this in the second clip)
• Use Rifle 5 at your feet. You'll notice the landing from this hit's for almost 11k in both clips. So it stands to reason this engineer is just as fragile as the thief, if not more so because it has less mobility and a single stun break with Elixir S.

I think the Engineer is using a build something like this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAQRlJw+YXMLmKO2LvrKA-DWRYBRVTM4DpJRRbKgGlKy8WQACY/8a0vTJA-w

[glass.3245]

Remus above is right that this is more than a 2 button instant-win combo, it's a well executed burst. There are plenty of other builds like this - explosive holo, shatter mirage - all roaming around looking for glassy players they can sneak up on. DE is fun to play but constant camera panning and cursing your own reaction speed comes with the territory

[Lipton Ice Tea.3580]

I see no issue here 🐓

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

As has been pointed out by several people now, there is a lot contributing to a quick kill here. By your reasoning fall damage is OP because it can kill you instantly.

1) The thief in the video is not looking at the Engineer before the pull.

2) The thief is using berserker stats, with at most marauder trinkets judging by their 16k HP with both borderlands bloodlust and the guild objective buff.

3) The thief makes no attempt to stun break the pull, granted they have a very short window here, but this is because they are caught completely by surprise.

4) The Engineer has got a really tight execution on their burst, my best guess would be:

• Get near the target and Throw Elixir S for stealth, use Elixir U for quickness.
• Cast Magnet Pull
• Precast Throw Elixir X so it lands at your feet right as the target arrives
• I'm not 100% here but I think the Engineer uses static shock or similar from the A.E.D toolbelt to initiate a 2s stun once they are in Moa and still recovering from the pull, otherwise Moa can evade.
• Swap off of Tool Kit back to Rifle likely triggering a Sigil of Vision to guarantee crits on the burst. (You can see this in the second clip)
• Use Rifle 5 at your feet. You'll notice the landing from this hit's for almost 11k in both clips. So it stands to reason this engineer is just as fragile as the thief, if not more so because it has less mobility and a single stun break with Elixir S.

I think the Engineer is using a build something like this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAQRlJw+YXMLmKO2LvrKA-DWRYBRVTM4DpJRRbKgGlKy8WQACY/8a0vTJA-w

You forgot that the engineer is dodge jumping, which must means he’s a super pro roamer and could probably beat a group 1v10 that’s what they say on the forums.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

9 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You forgot that the engineer is dodge jumping, which must means he’s a super pro roamer and could probably beat a group 1v10 that’s what they say on the forums.

They do be saying a lot on those forums.

[Sonork.2916]

7 hours ago, glass.3245 said:

Remus above is right that this is more than a 2 button instant-win combo, it's a well executed burst. There are plenty of other builds like this - explosive holo, shatter mirage - all roaming around looking for glassy players they can sneak up on. DE is fun to play but constant camera panning and cursing your own reaction speed comes with the territory

It's not about how many buttons they pushed for their combo, it's that once their yoinked/stunned opponent is moa'd and stunned again, there is nothing they can do to try and save themselves.  The counterplay is so limited I can see the frustration someone could have on the receiving end of this.  Similar to fighting thieves on some classes where you don't get to really fight, cause you don't get to hit them. XD 

I don't expect anything to change.  GW2 wvw/pvp has a very strong foundation of poor and toxic game design, stuff like this is simply par for the course.  

[TheGrimm.5624]

12 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

I mean, there is a video in the first post where the person dies in about 1.5 second after being pulled, did you miss it? or are you just being... ... you? XD

Fair ball and me being me. 🙂 Instant and one shot were coming up a bit much in the thread. No one likes to get downed when they don't have any options, nor does anyone like it when another player has a rotation and executes it till it's end. Definitely against a rotation and then having someone macro it and wish there were better ways for that to be detected. Glass on glass action though is usually pretty quick even without one player not having control due to something like moa or the other player having a rotation. 

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

It's not about how many buttons they pushed for their combo, it's that once their yoinked/stunned opponent is moa'd and stunned again, there is nothing they can do to try and save themselves. 

Last time I pulled a thief with magnet he teleported mid pull, teleported again and instantly went OOC to mount up.

Oh so limited the weaklings are. 

🥸

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:58 AM, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

it's a player issue and not an overperforming build issue.

Never said anything about entire builds. Very narrowly pointed out the interaction between only two skills: hard-CC + Moa.  This combination results in zero counterplay so long as it hits.  "Ah but landing it is the great gatekeeper justifying the payoff."  Not so much when chances of landing it can be dramatically increased by employing a few basic strategies like approaching distracted targets from behind and/or in stealth.  Yes, most "1-2-3 combos" are best executed this way, but name one that totally locks out the skill bar besides hard-cc + Moa.  Each skill is fine on its own, but in combination, it's too much, no matter how tricky to pull off.

On 12/13/2023 at 1:58 AM, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

It just feels so much worse on thief because they are so fragile when denied their main source of damage mitigation, that being their mobility. I won't disagree that there is a lot of hate towards thieves, and stealth especially. But I assure you my comment was not born of a vendetta towards thief mechanics, but to highlight how this combo is particularly effective against the tools normally available to a thief, particularly when they prop up mediocre players.

This combo is particularly effective on anything that doesn't passively spam stability or blocks (although Magnet is unblockable).  Thief is hardly the only class in that camp.  I don't see how any other class that gets hit by the Magnet and Moa'd in 0.5 seconds flat would fare any better unless they are built tanky enough to survive the follow-up burst and stand up for a few seconds longer only to see the Engi run away.

On 12/13/2023 at 1:58 AM, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

You're literally posing the argument that the skill combination is so completely broken as to warrant a not so humble ranting on the forums, and yet we are to somehow infer this from it only happening to you one time in thousands of hours? Which is it? Could it be that the combo actually isn't that strong, and is incredibly difficult to land reliably, thereby justifying its potency when it actually does? As the loser in that encounter, you only see it when it works, you don't see the failed attempts and the practice going into pulling it off.

I'm going to start copying from my prior replies:

On 12/12/2023 at 5:24 AM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

The only silver lining is that this meme combo is probably so uncommon it doesn't have much impact outside of niche situations like this, and probably why it remains to this day.

It is a fallacy to think that simply because something is uncommon, it's perfectly okay.

On 12/13/2023 at 1:58 AM, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

As for the video, I don't know what else to say, both kills come from behind, off camera, on a distracted target, what else did you expect?

More copying (emphasis in original):

On 12/10/2023 at 2:32 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

In both scenarios shown, and in WvW in general, it is not unusual to get CC'd.  It's not even unusual to get CC'd from off-screen.  It's not even unusual to be deleted in the blink of an eye by meme-combos if not built and reacted to properly.  These are to be expected.

What is not expected is the equivalent of opponents reaching through cyberspace and disconnecting one's keyboard for a few seconds.   What's the point of slotting stunbreaks and honing quick stunbreak+evade reflexes if all of that is taken off the table by an absurd interplay of two skills?

^ Hopefully that answers your question.

On 12/13/2023 at 1:58 AM, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Unfortunately for you, I and many others disagree with your opinion. I'm sure you knew this judging from your opening post as well, so I'm not sure why you got so indignant about the whole thing.

Is the majority always right?  It's easy for forum dwellers who've never been on the receiving end of the combo at issue (rare as it is) to click "confused" emotes and rattle off predictable victim-blames, and 20/20 hindsight.  Especially when they see a thief being abused.  I guarantee you many of the same cohort are also on here complaining about stealth, thief, mesmer, ranger, and other bursty combos, even though none of them completely lock out a properly slotted skill bar (minus mesmer Moa combo perhaps).  Bias and prejudice exist.

On 12/13/2023 at 1:58 AM, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

I stand by my original comment, sounds pretty salty to me.

And I stand by my point: It should not be possible to stun and simultaneously invalidate stun breaks.  It should not be possible to totally disable the skill bar.  It should not be possible to effectively disconnect another player's keyboard.  It should not be possible to totally negate player interaction.  These are the essence of unhealthy, degenerate, toxic gameplay.  You're welcome to feel otherwise.  We can agree to disagree.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 12/13/2023 at 2:03 AM, Ashen.2907 said:

Killing an opponent with a one-shot/instagib/whatever you want to call it from stealth disables their normal skill bar completely, and for longer than three seconds.

Good one.  Now imagine being able to do all that without even killing them. 🙂

12 hours ago, glass.3245 said:

Remus above is right that this is more than a 2 button instant-win combo, it's a well executed burst. There are plenty of other builds like this - explosive holo, shatter mirage - all roaming around looking for glassy players they can sneak up on. DE is fun to play but constant camera panning and cursing your own reaction speed comes with the territory

Yet none of them completely and totally lock out the skill bar and make it pointless to slot stunbreaks--or to have a keyboard.

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Last time I pulled a thief with magnet he teleported mid pull, teleported again and instantly went OOC to mount up.

Oh so limited the weaklings are. 

🥸

Bet they had more than 0.5 seconds to break the Magnet.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

8 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Never said anything about entire builds. Very narrowly pointed out the interaction between only two skills: hard-CC + Moa.  This combination results in zero counterplay so long as it hits.  "Ah but landing it is the great gatekeeper justifying the payoff."  Not so much when chances of landing it can be dramatically increased by employing a few basic strategies like approaching distracted targets from behind and/or in stealth.  Yes, most "1-2-3 combos" are best executed this way, but name one that totally locks out the skill bar besides hard-cc + Moa.  Each skill is fine on its own, but in combination, it's too much, no matter how tricky to pull off.

The sheer amount of supporting skills you need to put into the build to capitalize on the interaction justifies it, in my opinion. You may disagree and that's fine, but that build is good at one thing and one thing only, deleting other glass cannon builds that aren't paying attention. You get an opportunity to stun break, it's before the pull completes.

8 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

This combo is particularly effective on anything that doesn't passively spam stability or blocks (although Magnet is unblockable).  Thief is hardly the only class in that camp.  I don't see how any other class that gets hit by the Magnet and Moa'd in 0.5 seconds flat would fare any better unless they are built tanky enough to survive the follow-up burst and stand up for a few seconds longer only to see the Engi run away.

That's the point though, anything that doesn't get deleted by the burst is basically free to retaliate. You'd be surprised how easy it is to mess up the combo, or fall just shy of getting the kill, or If you're interrupted by another player joining in. The circumstances have to be just right to get this to work, as evidenced by how little this build is run with any great success. Elementalist is the only other class with as small a health pool and lower armour than the thief, and they often run celestial stats when roaming anyway. Some bursty mesmers or Rangers might also make good targets, but likely require further follow-up shots to down.

8 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

It is a fallacy to think that simply because something is uncommon, it's perfectly okay.

It means that it's not nearly as potent as you seem to believe it to be. By your own admission this has happened to you once in thousands of hours. Doesn't that tell you something about how difficult it is to make any use of this "dumb, degenerate, unhealthy, toxic skill interaction"? If your argument is that it sucks to be killed by it, then yes I agree. But it isn't problematic. Why isn't it problematic? Because it isn't causing problems.

8 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

^ Hopefully that answers your question.

Not really, I still don't think it justifies a salty whine post dripping in sarcasm about this terrible "I win" button skill interaction that has been demonstrated to you to be anything but an "I win" button.

8 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Is the majority always right?  It's easy for forum dwellers who've never been on the receiving end of the combo at issue (rare as it is) to click "confused" emotes and rattle off predictable victim-blames, and 20/20 hindsight.  Especially when they see a thief being abused.  I guarantee you many of the same cohort are also on here complaining about stealth, thief, mesmer, ranger, and other bursty combos, even though none of them completely lock out a properly slotted skill bar (minus mesmer Moa combo perhaps).  Bias and prejudice exist.

Oh bore off, being a thief main is not a protected characteristic. You're not a victim, this is a videogame discussion. No one has been abused.

You're probably right, given the nature of the forums, some of the posters probably do have an opinion on stealth and other bursty combos. Many such builds are easier to play and more effective than what is being discussed here too. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't have a personal issue with any of those either, because most of the time I am able to deal with them as well.

Bias and prejudice do exist yes, but you're aiming that at the wrong person here.

8 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

And I stand by my point: It should not be possible to stun and simultaneously invalidate stun breaks.  It should not be possible to totally disable the skill bar.  It should not be possible to effectively disconnect another player's keyboard.  It should not be possible to totally negate player interaction.  These are the essence of unhealthy, degenerate, toxic gameplay.  You're welcome to feel otherwise.  We can agree to disagree.

Maybe it shouldn't but until it becomes an actual issue there are many other skills I'd see given attention in terms of good balance before this. As it stands I do not have a problem with it given how difficult it is to make use of it in any meaningful way, if it was an easy "I win" button, I think you would see it far more frequently.

Ultimately I guess we do disagree, I am glad we were able to have such a lively discussion.

[Famine.7915]

The number of times people escape despite this tells me it's a skill issue.

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 12/14/2023 at 5:45 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Never said anything about entire builds. Very narrowly pointed out the interaction between only two skills: hard-CC + Moa.  This combination results in zero counterplay so long as it hits.  "Ah but landing it is the great gatekeeper justifying the payoff."  Not so much when chances of landing it can be dramatically increased by employing a few basic strategies like approaching distracted targets from behind and/or in stealth.  Yes, most "1-2-3 combos" are best executed this way, but name one that totally locks out the skill bar besides hard-cc + Moa.  Each skill is fine on its own, but in combination, it's too much, no matter how tricky to pull off.

 

Your statement implies thief should be removed from the game and that every wvw map should have a 1 person cap.  Because what you are describing is a handful of builds on other classes and EVERY build on thief.  It's literally what the class was designed to do.  But, this thread has some people upset that a non-thief did this to a thief.  The power creep is real, despite the blanket nerf a while back.  But, being burst down in a second because of lack of awareness is not "this skill is broken".  Being stunned and downed by a great setup is not the skills problem.  I've had every class do this to me, it's just more common coming from a thief.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

34 minutes ago, MedievalThings.5417 said:

Your statement implies thief should be removed from the game and that every wvw map should have a 1 person cap.  Because what you are describing is a handful of builds on other classes and EVERY build on thief.  It's literally what the class was designed to do.  But, this thread has some people upset that a non-thief did this to a thief.  The power creep is real, despite the blanket nerf a while back.  But, being burst down in a second because of lack of awareness is not "this skill is broken".  Being stunned and downed by a great setup is not the skills problem.  I've had every class do this to me, it's just more common coming from a thief.

Describe a thief combo that locks out your entire skill bar for three seconds, regardless whether you have stun breaks, if you get jumped from off screen and don’t react within half a second. I’ll wait.

[Leger.3724]

Not much sympathy for a thief dealing with an unfun game mechanic that takes 10x more skill than they have ever had or will ever have in any game.

[Zekent.3652]

Why is a SA thief complaining about core engi?

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:24 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Describe a thief combo that locks out your entire skill bar for three seconds, regardless whether you have stun breaks, if you get jumped from off screen and don’t react within half a second. I’ll wait.

You've described every build with more than one stun/daze but for thief it's basilisk venom, and while it's not 10 seconds, it wouldn't have to be since you are downed and dead in less than 5 hits, while every skill you use is interrupted.  And sure, it plays out mechanically different, but has the exact same result, unable to get skills off, despite having used a stun break, when played against a good thief.  The video that was linked isn't some amazing broken OP thing, it's a thief who got caught unaware, reacted slowly, and died because of it.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I take Moa in general as 'I can't kill you normally so going to take the easy route'.  Degen skill, and if I personally survive it and they don't, someone's getting sieged.

Thief hate is fun though when engis can burst nades from stealth (and throw nades backwards) and mes in general can do all kinds of broken things from stealth let alone the ports, immunity, distortion, clones...

Could say its one thing to die to thief on engi as after said nade burst you are a sitting duck unless have really good movement and are playing something like scrapper or holo--but dying to a thief on mesmer is so lol.