we need more Relics!!!! (old 6 piece bonuses should return!)

[Biziut.3594]

30 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I don't recall them ever mentioning that they intend to bring back all the old 6th rune effects in the form of relics. All they said was that there will be more relics.

 

24 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, I think what they said was something along the lines of "some of the relics will be inspired by old rune effects", which says nothing about bringing old effects into the game. If anything, it tells us they won't all be brought back. They also specifically said they want them to be more active than the old rune bonus effects.

Perhaps. I tried to find this blog post but to no avail. I might be wrong but I recall that they were saying something about bringing old rune effects with next big SotO updates. Hope my memory does not fail me tho.

Guess we will have to wait and see. With so many complains about the missing runes, especially "golem" one. It must've get to devs attencion at one point. And since playerbase won't let them live unless they make relics mostly to our satisfaction, I personally think that they will bring them. Probably not all of them and not necesserly in the same form, but they will. Time will tell. ^^

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

But what do you have to gain from other players no longer being allowed to have the enjoyment they had before? Unless you get a certain glee about people no longer having their enjoyment, you get literally nothing out of it.

What do you have to gain from people not oneshotting content or almost instantly unlocking anything that's to unlock in the game?
I care because despite you claiming "it doesn't influence me", it does have potential to influence how the game plays and if I wanted to just watch numbers go brrrr by themselves, I'd launch an idle game and watch the numbers go brrr. Active effects are a better design and in the end I think they're better for the game.

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Builds will always find are Relic, but that's not my point. What's the point of someone's build is numerically getting better, when said player doesn't care about numbers?

I could put a Relic of the Thief on all my character's builds and numerically perform higher, but what is the point for me? It's just adjusting a number. It doesn't give me a flock of crows, a Rock Dog or any effect I enjoy.

So no, what I said is not false. Not everything is about builds and numbers.

You wrote this: "There are players who do not gain any value out of how Relics currently are. This means, the only choices for them are to play with a relic they literally get no value from, to play with no Relic at all or to not play the game at all."  -so yes, that was and still is false. People get value from the relics and it's not all the same if they play without it. If you meant "but I don't like how it looks!" then that's not what you wrote.

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Why I wouldn't mind that, it's still more work than just doing the bare minimum of just adding the existing effects back into the game.

Ok, good. But are you seriously saying that locking/removing a cc skill and changing coefficient of an attack is somehow a meaningful amount of "having more work"? At this point if "it's more work" is something to go for you then the LEAST work is not adding those effects back, so there you go.

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Also, they game already is far beyond the point of worrying about more power creep, so adding more doesn't hurt the game anymore than it already has.

So you think "the game is beyond the point of worrying about more power creep" just because... some already happened? No, it is not beyond. Not only no more power creep has to be introduced, some of it could still be pulled back (as it actually occasionally was and is).
Claiming that "adding more doesn't hurt the game anymore" is just pure nonsense.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

People get value from the relics and it's not all the same if they play without it. If you meant "but I don't like how it looks!" then that's not what you wrote.

Then try to explain, how does a player who doesn't care about adjusting boons, conditions and numbers, get any value from Relics?

As far as I can tell, all current Relics are just about adjusting numbers, boons and conditions.

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

At this point if "it's more work" is something to go for you then the LEAST work is not adding those effects back, so there you go.

It's about the bare minimum that's required to add them back. Not adding them back doesn't fulfil said bare minimum.

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But are you seriously saying that locking/removing a cc skill and changing coefficient of an attack is somehow a meaningful amount of "having more work"?

If they simply copy-pasted the existing code onto Relics, it'd likely be a lot less than going through all the summoning effects and removing all the damage and other combat affecting bonuses.

Instead of removing all that, the same amount of work could probably be put into making one or two more of their expansion Relics.

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So you think "the game is beyond the point of worrying about more power creep" just because... some already happened. No, it is not beyond. Not only no more power creep has to be introduced, some of it could still be pulled back (as it actually occasionally was and is).
Claiming that "adding more doesn't hurt the game anymore" is just pure nonsense.

To me it's simply 'the number already are bloated beyond what's necessary, so piling more on top changes little to none'.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

But what do you have to gain from other players no longer being allowed to have the enjoyment they had before? Unless you get a certain glee about people no longer having their enjoyment, you get literally nothing out of it.

Builds will always find are Relic, but that's not my point. What's the point in someone's build numerically getting better, when said player doesn't care about numbers?

I could put a Relic of the Thief on all my characters' builds and numerically perform higher, but what is the point for me? It's just adjusting a number. It doesn't give me a flock of crows, a Rock Dog or any effect I enjoy.

So no, what I said is not false. Not everything is about builds and numbers. Someone who doesn't find value in number changes, will not find any value in a Relic that doesn't increase a number.

Them being potentially added back eventually doesn't help with people being miffed and having a worse experience now.

Why I wouldn't mind that, it's still more work than just doing the bare minimum of just adding the existing effects back into the game.

There is a very good chance that passive effects of this type were not reintroduced for performance reasons similar to the rework to druid spirits and other entities.

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Also, they game already is far beyond the point of worrying about more power creep, so adding more doesn't hurt the game anymore than it already has.

That's never a valid argument, sorry.

Simply piling on to an issue which is already crititcal is seldom the best decision. It's also seldom something done in other areas. Imagine going:"well my liver is already in bad shape, no reason to not drink even more now" or "my credit score is really low, might as well tank it to nirvana".

You are also contradicting yourself here because this would direcly affect other players and again: there might be other issues involved which guided the decision to remove ALL passive effects.

[Zzik.5873]

Just to put my 2 cents... everyone probably guess it... BRING BACK THE SUMMONABLE GOLEM! MY NAME AS GOLEMANER IN IT FOR A REASON. :3

Ps. Love you anet, and I will buy gem if you give me back my golem.

[Ashantara.8731]

1 hour ago, Biziut.3594 said:

I tried to find this blog post but to no avail. I might be wrong but I recall that they were saying something about bringing old rune effects with next big SotO updates.

Nope, no such thing - though I would welcome it. 😉 It was said that more core relics (i.e., relics which do not require the expansion) will be introduced.

[Fueki.4753]

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

There is a very good chance that passive effects of this type were not reintroduced for performance reasons similar to the rework to druid spirits and other entities.

At least in my experience, piling more and more particle effects onto one another affects performance far more than a few summoning entities could.

Also, if entities affecting performance was the issue, why can some Ranger pets and the wolves in the Shiverpeaks still summon more versions of themselves? Why can humans still summon Balthazar's dogs? If too many entities was an issue, these and more should have been on the chopping block, too.

Removing DX9 also was a major blow to the performance for players.

At least to me, performance feels like a weak excuse.

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

there might be other issues involved which guided the decision to remove ALL passive effects.

If there were, it'd be nice to at least tell people about that, rather than leaving an impression that says "we don't want you to have fun that way anymore."

Edited December 22, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

At least in my experience, piling more and more particle effects onto one another affects performance far more than a few summoning entities could.

Also, if entities affecting performance was the issue, why can some Ranger pets and the wolves in the Shiverpeaks still summon more versions of themselves? Why can humans still summon Balthazar's dogs? If too many entities was an issue, these and more should have been on the chopping block, too.

Removing DX9 also was a major blow to the performance for players.

At least to me, performance feels like a weak excuse.

I am with you on particle effects  but that is a client side issue. These changes were meant for server side optimization.

Some of that was also done in WvW.

Can't comment on dx9. My performance went up with dx11 and I believe it did for many other players too.

10 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If there were, it'd be nice to at least tell people about that, rather than leaving an impression that says "we don't want you to have fun that way anymore."

Sure more open communication or clarification would be welcome. I am also just guessing.

That said, imagine the developers came out and said: we changed xyz for better performance. Want to take a guess how that would have been spun by the negative crowd? 

I mean you are suggesting they removed certain effects because they wanted players to have less fun 🤷‍♂️

[Biziut.3594]

14 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Nope, no such thing - though I would welcome it. 😉 It was said that more core relics (i.e., relics which do not require the expansion) will be introduced.

Ahh, You might be right, I recall reading something like this, perhaps I've remembered it wrong. Thanks for straightening it up for me. ❤️

Hope that by this core relics and not only them, they will add some best old effects and add cool new ones. 

[Fueki.4753]

26 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Can't comment on dx9. My performance went up with dx11 and I believe it did for many other players too.

While that indeed happened, there also were people whose performance went down with the removal of DX9. On top of dropping in performance, the game also got uglier for some people.

In my case, it turned substantially darker, a lot more shiny and needlessly over-saturated. No amount of adjusting setting brought me any closer to how the game looked before.

In my opinion, the best solution would have been to just continue both.

26 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That said, imagine the developers came out and said: we changed xyz for better performance. Want to take a guess how that would have been spun by the negative crowd?

The negativity sprouts anyway, so they might as well have tried to simmer it down a bit.

Some people might even be less miffed, if they get a reason instead of losing their enjoyment without a single word.

26 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I mean you are suggesting they removed certain effects because they wanted players to have less fun

And without a proper explanation, it'll continue to feel that way to me.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I don't fancy any of the Relics that basically just interact with boons and conditions, or just adjust numbers, when I had the options to have a Rock Dog eating the face of my target before, or a flock of crows pecking at said face.

 

I take it you haven't seen the SotO relics yet..?

[Zzik.5873]

6 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

I take it you haven't seen the SotO relics yet..?

Ive seen all of the soto relic and none seem fun nor work well with my build. "Number go up" kinda of thing is just boring. The only one I kinda enjoy is the lyr one. The only one Im using on my engi is the citadel because its a big explosion but yeah and monk because I play healer in end game...

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Then try to explain, how does a player who doesn't care about adjusting boons, conditions and numbers, get any value from Relics?

Sooo "they don't get any value other than this, that or that"? Do you understand what "getting any value out of it" means? Because it's not what you reverted into now. They are getting value out of relics, any give build does. I'm not sure how there's even anything to explain here anymore, considering I already did explain it and you apparently refuse to accept that people get something out of relics because... they might dislike a theme? That doesn't make sense.

8 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

t's about the bare minimum that's required to add them back. Not adding them back doesn't fulfil said bare minimum.

No, it's about achieving a goal. Your goal is getting whatever. Anet's goal  -considering what they told us- is having more active effects and I agree with that goal. The bare minimum that's required to achieve that goal is not adding what you want here.

8 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Instead of removing all that, the same amount of work could probably be put into making one or two more of their expansion Relics.

Isntead of adding that passive relic back, they can use that time and effort to add new, more active effects which are in line with what they wanted relics to be.

8 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

To me it's simply 'the number already are bloated beyond what's necessary, so piling more on top changes little to none'.

And even that's nonsense, considering more powercreep inevitably means... more power creep and further trivialized content. Even if we don't account for those occasional nerfs and dmg dial-backs, you just basically said that "x boss should die in 7 minutes, but it dies in 6 minutes, so it might as well die in 30 seconds and it's all the same". Very obviously it's not the same and your claim of "there's already power creep so might as well add more" makes no sense. I don't know how you were able to convince yourself what you're writing here is anywhere near being correct.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Madam Pussycat.6153]

Agreed, give back rune bonuses, relics are very lackluster.

[Fueki.4753]

18 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

I take it you haven't seen the SotO relics yet..?

All but one just adjust numbers, boons and conditions.

And while I admit that I was a tiny bit off about all Relics doing just that, the one Relic that isn't doing that (Wizard's Tower) is of little value to me as well.

Having a short pull and a Projectile Reflect for four seconds isn't impacting anything, when you run an Elite ability with a cooldown of several minutes.

11 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sooo "they don't get any value other than this, that or that"? Do you understand what "getting any value out of it" means?

What do you think is value then? Some objective number change? Because at least to me, value is something subjective - something that's changes from person to person.

And if I don't care about a "number goes up" effect, then there is no value in it for me. The same goes for conditions and boons as well.

11 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

They are getting value out of relics, any give build does.

Maybe you should consider that it's not about builds. It's about players and what they enjoy playing with. For some players, numbers and being effective literally do not matter.

11 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, it's about achieving a goal. Your goal is getting whatever. Anet's goal  -considering what they told us- is having more active effects and I agree with that goal. The bare minimum that's required to achieve that goal is not adding what you want here.

Isntead of adding that passive relic back, they can use that time and effort to add new, more active effects which are in line with what they wanted relics to be.

Giving back the summons could be a one and done deal, spending on day (or maybe two). After that, they could focus on their goal. Meanwhile customers, who do not care for the types of Relics Arenanet made so far, have something different to choose from.

This is exclusively positive, except for people who get a glee of other people having a worse experience.

But, if it had to be an active effect no matter what, they could make something like the Rock Dog summon requirement being "Critically hitting an enemy from within 350 range summons a Rock Dog for 10 seconds, attacking your enemies." and give it a cooldown of 15 or maybe 20 seconds.

 I'd need to go out of my way to raise the Critical hit chance on my Spellbreaker, but it'd be at least be something I care about using. I wouldn't mind this as much as I hate being deprived of my Rock Dog.

I doubt others wouldn't mind too much having a simple active requirement that doesn't adjust how they play the game, as long as they get their summons back.

The raven from the Rune of the Mad King already had the same active requirement as some of the Relics, so they wouldn't even need to change anything there!

11 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And even that's nonsense, considering more powercreep inevitably means... more power creep and further trivialized content.

If they went back to pre-HoT levels of damage, condition and boon application, maybe I'd start to care about, but I doubt they'd ever do that. With the game already being beyond double those numbers, I'm far from caring about them adding another 5% or 10% on top.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Ashen.2907]

The supposed, "active effects," of relics that trigger without any special consideration on the part of the player just using his build as normal are not necessarily more, "active" to any impactful degree than much of the pre-relic rune list.

A relic that grants a damage buff for using my auto attack? 

A relic that heals when I use my autoattack?

A relic that grants a damage buff for using my normal attack rotation?

and so on.

Oh, and not every build benefits from a relic. My favorite build on my main character lost perfprmance with the addition of relics and no relic provides a benefit to the character.

[synk.6907]

2 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Oh, and not every build benefits from a relic. My favorite build on my main character lost perfprmance with the addition of relics and no relic provides a benefit to the character.

What? I'll take this as an opportunity to learn -- in what way does adding something reduce your performance? Or is this more about the change to whatever runes you were using?

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, synk.6907 said:

What? I'll take this as an opportunity to learn -- in what way does adding something reduce your performance? Or is this more about the change to whatever runes you were using?

Adding something that has no impact on my performance while subtracting something that did is a reduction in performance. Take the engine out of an automobile but add a softserve icecream machine and your driving performance has been reduced pretty dramatically despite the new addition.

[synk.6907]

10 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Adding something that has no impact on my performance while subtracting something that did is a reduction in performance. Take the engine out of an automobile but add a softserve icecream machine and your driving performance has been reduced pretty dramatically despite the new addition.

OK so it's not the addition of a relic but the removal of a 6th-slot bonus. The relic itself is still a benefit... but for a build like yours the relic system introduced a performance decrease due to the rune change.

 

Edit: I am not trying to be difficult -- in order to provide feedback there should be precision in what the issue is.

Edited December 23, 2023 by synk.6907

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, synk.6907 said:

OK so it's not the addition of a relic but the removal of a 6th-slot bonus. The relic itself is still a benefit... but for a build like yours the relic system introduced a performance decrease due to the rune change.

There is no relic that benefits that build. The build works as well with no relic as it does with one. Don't get me wrong, the reduction in performance is not particularly large, and I am fine ignoring the relic system for that build, or slotting a relic that is meaningless just to not have an empty slot.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

I cant believe the new feature of SoTo was relics and all they did was slightly buff/change the 6th stat on runes and swap it to the relic LMAO

Edited December 23, 2023 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Sobx.1758]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:02 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

Oh, and not every build benefits from a relic.

On 12/23/2023 at 5:23 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

There is no relic that benefits that build. The build works as well with no relic as it does with one.

What build? 

 

e: this silence is enough for an answer, thanks 😄  

Edited December 26, 2023 by Sobx.1758