Merica Madman.4695 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Most of the time my experiences in WVW are enjoyable as people normally respect one another's choice to not join a VOIP / Discord. However, during our recent server match-up I guess there's a known acceptable culture of kicking people for not being on VOIP, joining their guild, or just straight up running a private squad (but requesting people to ask to join)? These are all examples of how the game enables bullying and harassment over others, and fosters that culture. People use a position of power (commander) over others and abuse it because they can, which has negative effects on the other individuals as result of exclusion / harassment (Stanford Experiment). Yes, I have roamed and I have roamed outside of the squad but you don't get the same benefits from shared abilities or progress. Like bags / XP on shared boons. I have even tagged up but it's normally just me and maybe one or two other people that were also shunned from not conforming to control attempts. I don't have the time to commit to running a guild so I can have 20-30 people join my squad so that I can get PUG lemmings to join. This game mode in particular creates situations where an individual can get harassed by large groups of people for not doing what others want (really the commander). In the future, I recommend a game mode that doesn't elevate a single individual over a group so that everyone can share in the experience. Elevated permissions over individuals is too much power / control which is frequently abused. 6 1 4 38 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your attitude towards this whole ordeal? People insisting on squad members joining the voice chat has nothing to do with "wanting to control others" or "harassment". It's merely beneficial if everyone hears the Commander and is on the same page during a fight, which leads to a higher chance of success. It also takes a huge load off the Commander when they don't have to constantly type while roaming the map. Edited December 23, 2023 by Ashantara.8731 14 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFlopy.8197 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 The entire idea of them wanting people to come on voice (don't have to use a mic) is so the squad can hear the commander's commands, Commanding a squad is both mentally and physically tiring since you are responsible of the X people who are following you, the people that look up to you to command them and lead them to victory in the fights and to provide content for them, otherwise they wont see a reason joining the squad. Now, imagine the pressure and the mental state that commander has when his entire squad does not follow his commands, he needs to waste time typing stuff and not really focus on commanding, that is frustrating and bringing down motivation to command. At the end you will end up with almost no one tagging up or people are just running closed/private squads only for the people that actually willing to communicate which is mostly already happening right now. 14 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connor.2180 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Commanders can invite/kick whoever they please they are under no obligation to include you. Especially if you're unwilling to join voice or play a meta spec etc because these things really do matter in competitive play. For some people wvw is about winning, not inclusion. If you feel so strongly that you would compare world vs world to the Stanford prison experiment then you're taking this to heart way too much and you are better off finding a different game to play. 8 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) Sure, your choice to not enter a voicechat should be accepted. It’s your choice. please also accept the choice of other players, to not let you join into their party if you don’t meet their requirements. (Aka joining a voicechat). you both have the right to decide what you wanna do. That’s all there is. /e typos Edited December 23, 2023 by CafPow.1542 8 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilMasa.2546 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, LordMadman.5812 said: This game mode in particular creates situations where an individual can get harassed by large groups of people for not doing what others want (really the commander). In the future, I recommend a game mode that doesn't elevate a single individual over a group so that everyone can share in the experience. Elevated permissions over individuals is too much power / control which is frequently abused. I cant If I answered you in complete honesty I would be permanently banned from here. As far as I'm concerned, it's your head that transforms a very normal situation where you are asked to behave in a certain way/do something specific in order to join a group, into a personal offense/herassment towards you. Do you want the benefits of riding with that big group? Do as the person in charge of the group says ps: Not everything that happens to you in life is necessarily harassment. Edited December 23, 2023 by ilMasa.2546 16 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 1 hour ago, ilMasa.2546 said: As far as I'm concerned, it's your head that transforms a very normal situation where you are asked to behave in a certain way/do something specific in order to join a group, into a personal offense/herassment towards you. But that’s exactly the spirit of todays times.. 2 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodio.6134 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Commanders asking people to join voice is nothing new, and basically the result of experience. Squads that are organized with voice-only generally perform better than squads that aren't. This is only logical, as it is far easier to coordinate (movement, use of cooldowns, setting up baits etc. etc.). Coordination is alongside other factors like team-composition and individual player-skill one of the most impactful factors. This is a natural thing in any competetive setting and can observed in any competetive team-scenario. So it is only logical to try improving that factor by sorting out people that do not want to contribute in that way. You are also able to react a LOT faster to voice-commands, which makes a massive difference. Also, the argument of "getting harrassed by getting kicked for not joining voice" or similar, is a perception that is entirely made up by yourself (or rather, any person that thinks that way, not necessarily you specifically). Commanders stem a LOT of responsibility for the whole squad. People have massive expectations on their commander, and the commander will be the first that gets blamed if something doesn´t go as planned (no matter if it is actually their fault or not). heck, most players don´t even question themselves if something goes wrong, not realizing that they themselves may part of the "problem". So no, voice-only squads are NOT related to harassment or personal attacks in any way. People are free to pick who they want to play with. Commanders are free to pick only people in voice, just the same way as you are free to choose to not join their voice. Both sides ofc have to face the consequences of their decisions; the commander may end up with less people in their squad due to their requirement of people in voice, and the players end up not getting into the squad/getting kicked because of their decision to not follow what the commander asks for. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said: But that’s exactly the spirit of todays times.. You mean people suffering from depression and a low self-esteem thanks to the impact of social media? 4 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 People don't owe another a spot in their play group. It is not bullying for people to not play with you. It is not harrassment for people to not play with you. It is nether harrassment nor bullying for a group to have standards of behavior for those seeking to join. 5 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 This sounds like the digital version of going to a grocery store then getting upset that they get kicked out because of no shirt or shoes. It always amazes me how people engage in certain behaviors in a public space in a video game that they wouldn't really do in the real world. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said: You mean people suffering from depression and a low self-esteem thanks to the impact of social media? Or the impact of a culture of "safetyism" where cognitive distortions such as emotional thinking (i feel x so y is true) and catastrophizing (i can't join squad so now i can't play at all) are encouraged over critical thinking? Edited December 23, 2023 by Chaba.5410 5 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotmattylol.8457 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 The difference is that people aren't in prison. 5 hours ago, LordMadman.5812 said: Stanford Experiment 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirevey.5079 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Hi, are you new to life ? You want to join a group -> the group has rules -> don't wanna follow rules -> not allowed to run with group. How is this anybody's problem but your own. I wanna work for a company -> company asks for requirements to join -> don't want/don't have what is required -> can't get the job. Is this the company's problem ? 4 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Be sure to avoid pve cause there's mind controlling commanders there too. Also don't join guilds, cause they have elevated positions of guild leader and officers of power, and it has rules to abuse it's members too..... I would recommend you find a single player game, one that doesn't have an npc giving you orders. 🤔😏☕ 6 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said: I would recommend you find a single player game, one that doesn't have an npc giving you orders. Minesweeper and Solitaire come to mind. 😛 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) Analogy: You have a new job with a voice meeting every morning. You tell your boss that you won't participate, but it's fine when he sends you an email each day to inform you about the news of the meetings. You get fired because your boss does not have the time and energy for special treatments. You complain about your boss harassing/bullying you. Priceless! Side Note: I never join the voice chat, but for me it's also totally okay to not get invided into squads for that reason. It's trivial why a person would not want to command a squad without voice chat. Edited December 23, 2023 by KrHome.1920 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 5 hours ago, LordMadman.5812 said: Most of the time my experiences in WVW are enjoyable as people normally respect one another's choice to not join a VOIP / Discord. However, during our recent server match-up I guess there's a known acceptable culture of kicking people for not being on VOIP, joining their guild, or just straight up running a private squad (but requesting people to ask to join)? These are all examples of how the game enables bullying and harassment over others, and fosters that culture. People use a position of power (commander) over others and abuse it because they can, which has negative effects on the other individuals as result of exclusion / harassment (Stanford Experiment). Yes, I have roamed and I have roamed outside of the squad but you don't get the same benefits from shared abilities or progress. Like bags / XP on shared boons. I have even tagged up but it's normally just me and maybe one or two other people that were also shunned from not conforming to control attempts. I don't have the time to commit to running a guild so I can have 20-30 people join my squad so that I can get PUG lemmings to join. This game mode in particular creates situations where an individual can get harassed by large groups of people for not doing what others want (really the commander). In the future, I recommend a game mode that doesn't elevate a single individual over a group so that everyone can share in the experience. Elevated permissions over individuals is too much power / control which is frequently abused. Tags are not a requirement. Tags are optional. If you want to join a Tag but don't want to accept their lead and or requirements then you can: Follow along anyway - we have so much boon share you are still flooded with boons while just zerg surfing along Choose not to join Tag up yourself as an open Tag Join voice but just listen Go to another Tag that is open Switch maps Find a Havoc to team up with Flashmob it If you have a Tag as you said then you know those elevated permissions really only do like a handful of things and none of that is preventing a player from playing at the same time and place that squad is playing at. So will have to go with a -1 from me on that idea. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilMasa.2546 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said: But that’s exactly the spirit of todays times.. I don't know what you mean. In a discussion like this you can either generalize and extend any word to litterally everything, or you can get into the specifics of the situation being described. And the situation that is described is that of a person ( in an online game) that defines bullying and harassment as not being able to do what he wants in a group where certain things are requested in order to be part of it. From my point of view the situation is the classic one: "I want to be in your group/guild and enjoy all the benefits but I don't want to do anything that I'm asked to do" Edited December 23, 2023 by ilMasa.2546 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oatsnjuices.1698 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 Best thing is to just not follow the group if you dont like them. You could roam, or better yet log into your alt and tag snipe. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ilMasa.2546 said: From my point of view the situation is the classic one: "I want to be in your group/guild and enjoy all the benefits but I don't want to do anything that I'm asked to do" Also known as "leeching". This led me down a social sciences rabbit hole where it's called the "free rider problem" and explainable by a game theory experiment called the "prisoner's dilemma", which is ironic given the title of this post. Some fun "light reading" on the subject: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/ Thanks. I mean, if someone is going to bring up famous experiments from the social sciences to make accusations of harassment and bullying, why not go deeper on the philosophical level? xD Edited December 23, 2023 by Chaba.5410 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said: You mean people suffering from depression and a low self-esteem thanks to the impact of social media? No. Experiencing common Situations and instead of dealing with it and thinking about how the other person feels / why the other person does a thing, one plays the victim because every other person is not relevant. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CafPow.1542 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 1 hour ago, ilMasa.2546 said: I don't know what you mean. In a discussion like this you can either generalize and extend any word to litterally everything, or you can get into the specifics of the situation being described. And the situation that is described is that of a person ( in an online game) that defines bullying and harassment as not being able to do what he wants in a group where certain things are requested in order to be part of it. From my point of view the situation is the classic one: "I want to be in your group/guild and enjoy all the benefits but I don't want to do anything that I'm asked to do" I mean the attitude being entitled to things without the need to „do something for it“ (or work for it). a thing i frequently see in different situations. Not only jn a specific game situation like this. I know i might sound like an old, white man, idc. It’s just my observation. playing the victimcard in addition is just the cherry ontop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, LordMadman.5812 said: I don't have the time to commit to running a guild so I can have 20-30 people join my squad so that I can get PUG lemmings to join. Well, you know they are probably thinking the same thing. 10 hours ago, LordMadman.5812 said: In the future, I recommend a game mode that doesn't elevate a single individual over a group so that everyone can share in the experience. Elevated permissions over individuals is too much power / control which is frequently abused. In WvW, commanders have no real authority outside of squad and are just other players. This is not a raid where they can kick you from te map or make you do anything. Therefore a commander's power is directly proportional to the people that recognize it. Now I will say the game should allow you to block party/squad invites as it is annoying if people want to spam invite you, but I think your post seems to embellish on the hostile aspects a bit too much. Edited December 23, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilMasa.2546 Posted December 23, 2023 Share Posted December 23, 2023 54 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said: I mean the attitude being entitled to things without the need to „do something for it“ (or work for it). ohh i see. yea you totally right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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