New player here. Is Mesmer supposed to be this squishy?

[Averax.8617]

I had a few boosts from purchasing expansions

I used the first on my necromancer, and did all of the main personal story on that. Bulldozed that with my army of minions. Just barely unlocked reaper by the end. I switched to Mesmer for Living World S1+2 and HoT, and i noticed things started getting progressively more difficult to stay alive through that. It's now to the point where it's virtually guaranteed that i get downed several times in story instances. Mostly just dying to chip damage and sometimes randomly being 1-shot by something.

Now that i'm in maguuma i can't really seem to solo very much anymore. Am i doing something wrong or the class just a glass cannon until you can get more points into your elite specs? I'm a little way into Virtuoso and am really feeling the absence of my clones now. I thought it would be more useful to be able to bank those charges out of combat but now i'm not so sure.

[AliamRationem.5172]

You might consider Mirage if you want better sustain.  The ability to dodge even while stunned or performing other actions is incredibly powerful.  I also recommend condition builds using tanky stats like celestial.  Take staff for one of your weapons.  It's super easy mode.

[SeTect.5918]

Personal story is far easier than for example HoT.

I actually recently noticed that in HoT there is a heropoint that can crit 15k on a warrior with 2300+ armor points (without a oneshot mechanic). Warrior is heavy armor and has 300+ more armor points than a mesmer or necro. The damage you receive on these is a bit higher if you dont have damage reductions in your build. However necro has shroud and a higher hp Pool than mesmer so this heropoint can indeed oneshot a mesmer with no toughness. 

Mirage is by far the tankiest mesmer e spec so you should go for that one if you want to survive harder content.

Take celestial gear, use sigil of energy on both weapon sets and lets go. 

Mirage is mostly condi based so you should go for staff or dagger/pistol or dagger/torch in pve.

Axe/pistol + axe/torch also works but ranged combat is a safer way to go in solo play.

Edited January 6 by SeTect.5918

[evilcat.6817]

Yes, Mesmer is squishy. And HoT could be harder, maybe even more than PoF. On bright side you can blast core with Mesmer. Necro is suprisngly tanky, as you have big ealth pool, and second one which regenerates on its own. So it is tankiness on next level.

For mesmer, you can pump your Clone generations, so enemies will focus on your dudes. There are traits which regenerate health when you spawn clone, or shatter a clone, or when you use mantra. Celestial stats are another option. Or maruders statline. You can have double gear setup: Celestial and full Berserker.

Mirage could be good solo mesmer, but Chrono have some team utility, and you also have healing on chrono.

 

[Averax.8617]

Thank you all for the advice. I think i'll switch back to core mesmer and start working on mirage. I was actually torn between mirage and virtuoso when i  was chosing an elite spec, because both looked fun, i went with virtuoso because a bunch of videos said it was really good. I'm guessing that's more of a gear thing.g

[ShadowKatt.6740]

7 hours ago, Averax.8617 said:

I used the first on my necromancer, and did all of the main personal story on that. Bulldozed that with my army of minions.

Heeeeeeyyyyyyyy, I know that trap.

So, the answer to the title is yes. We are a Scholar profession, and yes, we are squishy. But you've unfortunately done yourself a disservice, and I know because I did the same thing. Minion Master is an incredibly easy build to play, doubly so thanks to Death's Carapace which makes a necromancer as tanky as any ranger out there, and with even more pets. It's very easy and as such it's easy for you to lull yourself into complacency because of it. I know I did.

But Mesmers are different. As a Necro, and especially as a Minion Master Death Necro, you could take a hit, which is good because as a necromancer you're inevitably gonna have to take a hit eventually. Mesmers on the other hand don't have to take a hit, and in fact our entire schtick is that we don't get hit at all. Other people are going to talk to you about Especs and sustain and things like that, but I'd like to boil things down even more simply and get to the heart of what it is to be a mesmer.

Mesmers are the masters of deception and we are very hard to kill. No one likes to fight a mesmer and everyone is jealous of our abilities. The key to being a mesmer is that whatever you're doing, whatever you're fighting, you cannot be touched. The core ability of mesmers is our clones. It's never a fair fight with a mesmer. Once we get things rolling fighting a mesmer becomes a guessing game, and the price for losing is death. We use clones both to confuse our opponents and to protect ourselves by taking the hits for us. Your clones will form a team with you unlike your minions which are used as an army for you. Maneuver to put your clones between your enemies and yourself, learn when to let off pressure to let your clones take aggro, and learn how to time when to shatter to take down a foe on their last leg.

The other thing that we have that other profession, especially necros, don't have is mobility. We have access to more teleports than anyone else. Blink lets you teleport in any direction you want, Phase Retreat is a fast-recharging instant teleport away from whatever you have targeted, and that's just a couple examples. We also have EXCLUSIVE access to Distortion which is like if Aegis and Stability had a baby because you are immune to EVERYTHING for a few seconds. And lastly we have access to a large number of Invisibility skills, because what they can't see, they can't hurt.

In summary, yes, we are very squishy. But that's because we unlike other professions can afford to be. We don't need armor when we have diversions, decoys, mobility, and invisibility. When you put all these things together we are an absolute nightmare in a fight because when fighting a mesmer you never know who we are or where we are, and even IF you manage to find us you cannot touch us if we don't want to be touched. The mesmer is a profession with a very low floor for entry but a very high ceiling for mastery. Keep at it. You will never stop improving.

[Fueki.4753]

You basically used the profession with the highest effect health (highest base health + shroud) and went easy mode with its meat zoo for the easiest part of this game's story.

It's a given that every other profession will feel squishy in comparison when playing harder bits of the story.

As for Mesmer, I personally prefer Chronomancer.

Using the Greatsword trait to summon two Phantasmal Berserkers and have that happen twice with Chronophantasma feels like a nice burst to me and quickly ends many PvE encounters.

Phantasmal Defender can also help you, if you feel too much pressure.

If you like any variant of Power Mesmer, it's a good idea to g a set of Marauder gear for the additional health. Once you get more confident with the profession, you can gradually switch out Marauder pieces for Berserker. I personally I like the HP buffer, so I keep my Mesmer at full Marauder gear.

Similarly, if you want to play a condition Mesmer, you may want to start with Trailblazer gear and gradually switch to Viper. But Trailblazer may be a bit expensive. Or at least it was expensive, when I made my set during early PoF.

Edited January 6 by Fueki.4753

[Mell.4873]

I had a similar experience but with Ranger going to Mesmer. 

To put it plainly which is one of the things I love about GW2 is every class plays very differently. 

Necromancer does its damage in shroud but it also serves as you damage mitigation. With it allowing to both wait out cooldown like the heal skill to come back. 

Mesmer is different the goal here is to generate clones and use them for mitigation and healing. Signet of Ether one of the popular healing options which heals you on clones generated. This is even true for Virtuoso where your condition damage can heal you a percentage of damage dealt. The best way to deal damage is to generate blades and shatter them.

Its a bit like a train with Mesmer, once it gets going you can't die. 

[Geronmy.3298]

8 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The ability to dodge even while stunned

That was removed on june. It also took our Mirage Cloak bar FX with it.

[Averax.8617]

Going back to core was the correct direction for my survivability. And from there, learning how to play mirage was pretty fun. Cloak is pretty amazing

[Micah.3789]

Most classes in GW2 are "squishy". Its action heavy combat rewards active defenses more than passive. While there are exceptions, most builds are designed around avoiding damage more than soaking and mitigating it. Positioning and dodging are available to all classes and are the primary way to improve survivability.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

100% of cases where someone says they feel squishy in this game are those who stand still in one spot and eat damage like there's no tomorrow. 

The truth is that this game doesn't have any armor differentiation, heavy/medium/light classification is purely just for cosmetics and all armor types provide the same stats regardless. Don't fall into the silly false myth that you're squishy because you're playing a scholar class; you'll feel squishy in any classes you play if you keep eating damage.

The only thing that's slightly different is the base HP of each class, which Necro famously claim the top spot for the highest base HP of any classes. Perhaps it's because of Necro's gigantic HP pool that you could afford to eat more damage before, so you feel other classes are squishier in comparison. But that's the wrong way to play this game. 

The game is designed around avoiding damage than trying to take any of it, that's why being mobile and learning the correct positioning so that attacks won't hit you is very important in this game. That's what you should be doing 99% of the time, save for the 1% when you couldn't for whatever reason then you have 2 dodges and 1 heal button as backup. You won't believe how much better your gaming experience will improve by just practicing this simple fact.

[Mevelios.4809]

If you're feeling squishy with a mesmer despite its clones and 16K base hp pool, don't try elementalist, it's the next light armor profession on the list with even less health and unlike the others, has no pets/illusions 😁 The two posts above mine essentially tell you what's important: you shouldn't just stand in the way of damage, thinking you can brush it off without effort. Very few abilities/profiles can do that!

Mirage has a bunch of dodges from vigor uptime and utilities generating Mirage mirrors, so you can avoid a lot of damage thanks to it. It's really strong on its own, although that means you need to pay attention to what your target is doing - if you don't dodge, you'll take the usual number of damages! The prime way of playing it is with a condi build, which will make the axe your prime candidate as mainhand weapon - Axes of symmetry adds another dodge frame to that, although not triggering the Mirage cloak mechanic.

Virtuoso can have a lot of self-healing from the Signet of the ether, since the blades replacing the clones can be generated in high numbers in a short time. Playing condi can largely reinforce that through the combination of Jagged mind with Bloodsong, but that doesn't mean you can facetank absolutely everything - you should still dodge when the opportunity arises, on the worst damaging attacks!

Core mesmer & chrono are different cases without the same level of survivability as the two others (although chrono has easier access to aegis pulses). Chrono has quite the bursting ability though, so when everything threatening you lays dead, who cares about survivability differences?

[Micah.3789]

18 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

The truth is that this game doesn't have any armor differentiation, heavy/medium/light classification is purely just for cosmetics and all armor types provide the same stats regardless. Don't fall into the silly false myth that you're squishy because you're playing a scholar class; you'll feel squishy in any classes you play if you keep eating damage.

This first bit isn't actually true, but the difference is small so I think your point still stands.

For education's sake: the formula for damage calculation divides the overall value by the armor value. The different armor weights have slightly different values to start, and then toughness is added to get the overall armor value. Assuming no toughness and ascended/legendary armor: light is 1967, medium is 2118, and heavy is 2271. If we use base light armor as the standard and therefore representing 100% damage taken, medium armor will take 92.87% damage and heavy armor will take 86.61% damage. Once you start adding toughness gear the difference gets even smaller. 

[Junkpile.7439]

Squishy build is squishy. Often squishy builds feels even more squishy if you haven't use build much. If you need to even think little bit what buttons push next you are dead.

[Jables.4659]

As a profession, Mesmer is in the lightest armor tier and a medium health tier, but Mesmer can be tanky or squishy depending on the choices you make with gear(stats), weapons, traits, and skills.  

If you just want to make yourself less squishy as quickly as possible, consider the following trait-lines and weapons: Chaos, Inspiration, Staff, Shield.

I would recommend starting with Chronomancer if you're mostly going to be doing solo open world stuff.  
The ideal your aiming for at level 80 is as much power and ferocity as possible while hitting 75% critical hit chance.  If you feel like you need some passive defenses, you can run some toughness and/or vitality, though you should try to rely more on active avoidance of damage via positioning, movement, dodging, blocking, stealth, etc. 

Chronomancer allows you to maintain permanent quickness (or alacrity) uptime on yourself (and allies).  If you learn how to play Chronomancer, you'll also have a much easier time adapting to other Mesmer specs and will be able to fill more roles if you decide to engage in endgame pve activities like fractals and raids. 
Dagger/Sword or Sword/Sword
Greatsword
Domination, Dueling, Chronomancer

 

[Buran.3796]

On 1/6/2024 at 2:13 PM, Averax.8617 said:

Now that i'm in maguuma i can't really seem to solo very much anymore. Am i doing something wrong or the class just a glass cannon until you can get more points into your elite specs? 

   You're not familiar with the profession and foes and probably not using a build which allows to forgive mistakes.

   Mesmer is arguably the easiest profession to level solo, and once you reach 80 goind Mirage asap makes things even easier. I really don't known how to play Mesmer yet leveling it with a condi build and staff + greatsword was really easy, and with celestial gear and Mirage soloing bounties and other hard bosses became really easy (again: without even knowing how to properly play the class).

   Core build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PigAEZlJwuYWsE2IO6L6neA-DSIUbUxDAA-e

  Fight vs Mandulis:

   Build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PigAYZlZwQYRsEmJWyP9PNA-DyIY1oi/MyUJ0rMQhPEAA-e

[Micah.3789]

8 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

Fight vs Mandulis:

That was painful to watch, but you did warn us lol. You'd be a lot better off just taking the inspiration line instead of dueling to face tank and heal. You lose so much damage just running around in circles.

[draxynnic.3719]

On the comment about videos describing virtuoso as being good:

It's not entirely wrong for solo - condi mirage can get a fair amount of self-sustain and if built appropriately mirage does have the ability to stop hits - but mirage is generally better. The videos praising virtuoso, however, generally have group PvE content in mind. Virtuoso does pretty well there, since it has strong ranged damage, can generally avoid big hits, brings mesmer utility to the table, and in those environments you generally have a healer to sustain you through chip damage, or people around you who can res and/or be additional targets to reduce the heat coming at you specifically. Channels that focus on solo content (Lord Hizen specialises heavily in this, but some others such as Nike and Vallun occasionally dip their toes in this area) generally focus more on mirage.

[Buran.3796]

19 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

That was painful to watch, but you did warn us lol. You'd be a lot better off just taking the inspiration line instead of dueling to face tank and heal. You lose so much damage just running around in circles.

  I have literaly no clue of what the F skills do on Mesmer, I rarely play light armor classes , and yet Mandulis (which is one of the bounties with more cc in the game) was really easy to kill just spamming evades and some bubbles. My point is just that is really easy to run a Mirage and just facetank/solo almost everything  while not knowing how to play the class, so I don't think Mesmer is just a glass canon or squishy. I'm not advocating for "hey just play bad the profession", I'm just saying that can be very good for newcomers just knowing some basics and then they could build knownledge and finesse on top of that and do much better.

   What I wouldn'r recomend for solo is starting as Virtuoso, which is very single target centred, or using a raid build designed to deliver high dps while a healer covers our backs, since that wouldn't work if you're starting with the class.

[draxynnic.3719]

I don't agree to the characterisation of virtuoso as single-target-focused, outside of the context of all mesmers being a bit single-target-focused. Virtuoso shatters are capable of hitting multiple targets apart from F3 (not to mention that you don't lose daggers when killing a target), virtuoso utilities are mostly AoEs, and while it's now available to all mesmers, dagger is one of the most multi-target-oriented weapons mesmer has. Obviously it doesn't match what some other professions can do in terms of AoE capacity, but in the mesmer context it's up there with greatsword mirage and wells-heavy chrono.

[Mike.7983]

Cele mirage open world is second to celestial vindicator for sheer ability to solo pretty much anything.  Look into the hizen builds for solo open world.  Anyone saying mesmer is squishy has never played a cele mirage.

[Zenith.7301]

15 hours ago, Mike.7983 said:

Cele mirage open world is second to celestial vindicator for sheer ability to solo pretty much anything.  Look into the hizen builds for solo open world.  Anyone saying mesmer is squishy has never played a cele mirage.

Recommending a cele build to a newcomer is ridiculous. They won't have the accessories, runes, and the gold to get the synergy of Hizen's builds. It's also a niche use of gold when most new players should be focusing on getting berzerkes/assassins and vipers gear sets first for endgame content.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

58 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Recommending a cele build to a newcomer is ridiculous. They won't have the accessories, runes, and the gold to get the synergy of Hizen's builds. It's also a niche use of gold when most new players should be focusing on getting berzerkes/assassins and vipers gear sets first for endgame content.

The hell are you talking about? There are multiple lists of where you can get celestial gear, for free, and on top of that you can pick up ascended accessories with laurels from the Laurel Vendors. And you would push them into Zerk/Assassin/Viper gear which is specifically tuned to a SINGLE build whereas Celestial is literally the all around generalist build. I have literally run celestial gear since I started BECAUSE it is a generalist build. I can DPS, I can condi, and I can support because I don't have any bad stats. Am I doing the same DPS as someone in Zerk, or the same condi as someone in Viper? Of course not. Not the point. Celestial is probably THE BEST beginner gear for any player being incredibly resiliant and rounded.. You throw a noob in Zerk or Viper and you've given a new player a high level glass cannon build. WHY would you do that?

[Zenith.7301]

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

The hell are you talking about? There are multiple lists of where you can get celestial gear, for free, and on top of that you can pick up ascended accessories with laurels from the Laurel Vendors. And you would push them into Zerk/Assassin/Viper gear which is specifically tuned to a SINGLE build whereas Celestial is literally the all around generalist build. I have literally run celestial gear since I started BECAUSE it is a generalist build. I can DPS, I can condi, and I can support because I don't have any bad stats. Am I doing the same DPS as someone in Zerk, or the same condi as someone in Viper? Of course not. Not the point. Celestial is probably THE BEST beginner gear for any player being incredibly resiliant and rounded.. You throw a noob in Zerk or Viper and you've given a new player a high level glass cannon build. WHY would you do that?

Because there is no room for improvement or learning mechanics when you give them a misleading crutch that has no place outside open world solo PVE. Good luck joining raids and fractals without being immediately kicked the moment their meters tell them your output. Beginners deserve to be given the clear expectations of the game's endgame content.

And those free acquisition and laurel methods are more time consuming than just farming the gold and buying the exotics off the TP.

Edited January 11 by Zenith.7301