The Skyscale Epidemic in Open World

[Buzzbugs.1236]

33 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

So in conclusion it because not enough people both in the player base and more critically in the dev team had the foresight to see how this was going to affect the game and thus here we are. So to summarize what has been a long enough diatribe already I'll just paraphrase what someone else said above: We told you so.

All you needed to do was look at what flying mounts did to WoW. Anyone paying attention could see the problem coming like a runaway train without breaks, because MMO's have made this same mistake before.

The dev team likely saw it coming, too. But couldn't resist putting them in the game because they are big for the Gem store, not to mention it makes everything trivially easy (especially the older content) and makes grinding more convenient overall, which is what most PvE'ers want in the end.

So here we are as the after effects of adding flying mounts to the game continues to snowball.

Edited January 25 by Buzzbugs.1236

[kharmin.7683]

Good thing the flying mounts are optional for practically all OW content.

[Buzzbugs.1236]

Just now, kharmin.7683 said:

Good thing the flying mounts are optional for practically all OW content.

Yeah right.

Why do you think they streamlined their acquisition with SotO?  Expecting future content to require or at least heavily favor the Skyscale, maybe?

As the old saying goes, why Walk when you can Ride? Well now it's why Ride when you can Fly?

[kharmin.7683]

20 minutes ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Yeah right.

Why do you think they streamlined their acquisition with SotO?  Expecting future content to require or at least heavily favor the Skyscale, maybe?

As the old saying goes, why Walk when you can Ride? Well now it's why Ride when you can Fly?

I think it was streamlined because of all of the complaining.  Still, SoTo can be done without one, provided a player has Griffon and/or glider and can use updrafts and/or leylines.  Sure, I expect future content to favor the skyscale -- it is the signature flying mount for most players -- but they aren't required  to complete the content.

 

Edited January 25 by kharmin.7683

[Buzzbugs.1236]

13 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

but they aren't required  to complete the content.

Except it will probably take you 3x longer and you probably wont be able to keep up with the grind train, arrive late to events, feel like a noob, etc..

But you want to call it optional. Yeah, technically everything is optional if you want to put it that way.

With this mindset, how about let's call all mounts, including gliders optional? Do you think you will be having much fun limiting yourself? No, it will not be fun. At the very least you want to keep up with everyone else and not fall behind. That makes the Skyscale essential in the players mind. NOT optional.

If Skyscales were not in the game it would be a non-issue. Nobody would complain about there not being a flying mount. The fact is they DO exist, and you need one unless you have some weird conviction and won't use them. I don't like using the Skyscale either but I'm not going to pretend like I don't need it going forward.

Edited January 25 by Buzzbugs.1236

[ShadowKatt.6740]

34 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Good thing the flying mounts are optional for practically all OW content.

Are they though?

Since I'm already on a roll with the metaphor comparisons, here's another: Cell phones. You've got a cell phone, I assume. I have one. Most people in the first world which is probably where you're playing Guild Wars 2 have a cell phone. Did you know you don't actually need a phone to get through life? You won't die without one. But how do you get a job without a phone? If you don't have a phone, you can't get a job because they can't contact you. It's an optional part of life that is actually required if you want to get by.

Mounts are much the same way. Excluding Amnytas which I already mentioned you don't need a mount to do things. You can run from point A to point B, and while YOU aren't using one, everyone else is. So need to get to an event? Well the event's done already. Did you make it to the event but now you need credit? Good luck amidst all the jade cannons and siege fireballs. But no, you're not required to use a mount for any of the OW content, you're right, you're right. You just can't get it done without them.

7 minutes ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

 Except it will probably take you 3x longer and you probably wont be able to keep up with the grind train, arrive late to events, etc..

But you want to call it optional. Yeah, technically everything is optional if you want to put it that way.

With this mindset, how about let's call all mounts, including gliders optional? Do you think you will be having much fun limiting yourself? No, it will not be fun. At the very least you want to keep up with everyone else and not fall behind. That makes the Skyscale essential in the players mind. NOT optional.

If Skyscales were not in the game it would be a non-issue. Nobody would complain about there not being a flying mount. The fact is they DO exist, and you need one unless you have some weird conviction and won't use them. I don't like Skyscales being in the game but I'm not going to pretend like I don't need it going forward.

Or exactly what was just said above, but I'm going to echo it just to amplify it that much more. But if you're that bothered you can at least take solice in the fact that you won. It's not as if the mounts are going away, and skyscales will only continue to get more and more powerful. They'll probably add a second seat to it in the future to satisfy those people, and I'm sure the next mastery we get will give it faster charging fireballs so it can siege even more. Because the consequences be damned! This is the state of the game now.

[kharmin.7683]

19 minutes ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

If Skyscales were not in the game it would be a non-issue. Nobody would complain about there not being a flying mount.

Except prior to the implementation of mounts (and flying mounts) there were many complaints about there not being mounts (and flying mounts).

[Teknomancer.4895]

6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Just limit the Fireball attack to SotO - problem solved. I couldn't care less, as there is no fun in dealing damage from a flying mount. What's even the point to it, other than leeching?

IDK, I think it's fun to target the enemy with 2 on the dive approach and then punch 1 to dismount when dive-bombing into a fight. But of course that means I'm actually joining in on the ground. 😜

I do wonder about the point of doing it, however. If I try to fireball most enemies without being within X distance of them (whatever that range actually is) then they just regen to full in less than a second and then no amount of additional fireball damage will even make them break a sweat. If that's happening while someone on the ground is also trying to do melee-range damage, that might actually validate the OP's Warrior issue.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Except prior to the implementation of mounts (and flying mounts) there were many complaints about there not being mounts (and flying mounts).

Shocker. People don't know what they want, and if you give them what they want they will be unhappy.

See, this is one of those hard, nasty truths that you learn as you grow up and grow old: Just because it sounds good doesn't mean it is good. Chocolate cake for breakfast sounds awesome until you actually do it. Binging a new show all night long sounds awesome until you already do it. And even things that otherwise would sound good, like going for a 10 mile hike when you are not in shape sounds awesome until you do it. Experience and wisdom are not universal constants, and so it falls on those with the experience and wisdom to guide people who have not gained that yet.

As stated above, flying mounts SOUNDED great, and in fact we already had gryphons which did allow up flight but it was flight with a big caveat. You needed a place to take off from, so its use was situational. Of course, when you COULD take advantage of it it was amazing, but it had a time and a place. But that wasn't good enough. People wanted permanant flight. Unlimited flight. Six directional helicopter flight, and thus we got skyscales. And after we got skyscales....well, I'm not going to rehash everything I said, you can reread it above. But the point is that the players begged for it, and they should have been told no. That's not cruelty. That's not malice. Players in general do not take the larger picture. They want what they want but they do not generally consider the consequences outside how it will affect their individual experience. So someone else has to. The developer has to. The engineers have to. The creative team needs to. That's their responsibility and their duty. And they failed at that. So here we are.

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Except prior to the implementation of mounts (and flying mounts) there were many complaints about there not being mounts (and flying mounts).

A request for flying mounts is not really a complaint about the lack of flying mounts.

[Sobx.1758]

Yup, called it when we got the news about skyscale fireball being added with soto. Thought it will be a bad addition back then and still think so now. 

12 hours ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

I brought this up years ago on this forum back when Skyscales first got introduced and I got nothing but confused ratings as a response. Now it seems the honeymoon phase has worn off and the chickens have finally come home to roost. I hate to say I told you so..

No, you didn't, because skyscale didn't have that ability years ago and we had no information about it getting added at that time either. No need to make up this stuff just so you can claim "you told us so". You evidently didn't. 

Edited January 25 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, called it when we got the news about skyscale fireball being added with soto. Thought it will be a bad addition back then and still think so now. 

No, you didn't, because skyscale didn't have that ability years ago and we had no information about it getting added at that time either. No need to make up this stuff just so you can claim "you told us so". You evidently didn't. 

Agreed.

The only mitigating factor, IMO, is that some character contribute less to an event's success while dismounted than they do on their Skyscale. Not enough to offset the issues being raised though.

[Cuks.8241]

Its not wow lvl of detriment to the game but Skyscale definitely didnt improve it for me.

I dont even care about leeching, this game's ow is designed for leeching from grounds up. And I dont even mean it in a bad way because its still better than kill stealing.

But like in many games it removes the players from the world. Its also a shame because the pre mount maps have masterful designs that really reward map knowledge with easier traversal. And while all mounts have an impact, Skyscale is way worse. I really liked Hot hp trains, even just for fun. Because it was cool to follow coms that mastered the maps and learn their paths. Even raptor trains kept many interesting elements. Now during the train all you observe is a flock of ugly skyscales all over the screen (even if coms asks not to use so new players can actualy see the path). I never do hp trains anymore even if I need the hp.

Also it destroyed DS meta.

[Jedrik.3109]

Skyscale fireball is the ultimate expression and peak of gw2 combat design. Anyone that complains about this refuses to admit the defining principle of gw2. Play how you want. Imagine thinking that just because you do more damage, something you shouldn't have numbers for anyway arcdps cheaters, that others play style is inferior and to be publicly ridiculed in this way.

🙃

[Cuks.8241]

They actually already have a solution for Skyscale epidemic. Drizzlewood snipers. Spawn those in pre-Skyscale maps (we would need some variants like Mordrem Sniper, Forged Sniper). They wouldn't attack ground targets unless attacked but stalk players on "flying" mounts. It won't be a problem on Griffon where you can easily outpace them but if you flap your Skyscale too long you'll get sniped.

[kharmin.7683]

3 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

They actually already have a solution for Skyscale epidemic. Drizzlewood snipers. Spawn those in pre-Skyscale maps (we would need some variants like Mordrem Sniper, Forged Sniper). They wouldn't attack ground targets unless attacked but stalk players on "flying" mounts. It won't be a problem on Griffon where you can easily outpace them but if you flap your Skyscale too long you'll get sniped.

I'm guessing that this solution wasn't very popular which might be why something similar wasn't added to later maps.  I'd imagine that Anet's feedback is more heavily tilted toward players who enjoy flying around on skyscales over those who are annoyed by them.  /shrug

[ShadowKatt.6740]

6 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

They actually already have a solution for Skyscale epidemic. Drizzlewood snipers. Spawn those in pre-Skyscale maps (we would need some variants like Mordrem Sniper, Forged Sniper). They wouldn't attack ground targets unless attacked but stalk players on "flying" mounts. It won't be a problem on Griffon where you can easily outpace them but if you flap your Skyscale too long you'll get sniped.

The number of times I've been sniped out of the sky I could count on one hand. BUT I also don't sit there and wait for them to shoot me either. I'm actually on board with having more snipers or the like in the game. PoF had lots of mount traps on the ground to at least make you wary or observant if you wanted to rush by raptor. So absolutely add more snipers that target skyscales in particular, and make them lethal. They should be able to one-shot a skyscale that doesn't have Turtle Health Boost, afterall they do give you a warning you're being targetted. I think it would also encourage people to learn more of the layout of the maps, Fly low and fast, use the terrain for cover. It's a good idea, you have a good idea there.

[Kiki.9450]

I agree that something needs to be done about Fireball specifically. Is there a technical limitation in place that prevents it from being changed so that it can't tag mobs, but can still be used for siege damage? The siege damage bit is the whole reason it was given Fireball in the first place, else siege turtle riders will continue to see very limited use for their mount in the future, unless Anet wants to implement more post-EoD methods of obtaining them.

Re: some poor guy got obliterated by a bounty that they were "soloing" while a bunch of useless jibs were sitting on their Skyscales Fireball-spamming the enemy rather than actually assisting: tough... but if that were to happen to me, I'd just abandon the bounty (as in, run away, I'm not giving people a free pass on my bounty if I can help it) and try again later. Just because I can solo a thing doesn't mean that someone Fireball-leeching from my work is something that I'll put up with, if I can help it. It is very unfortunate for that warrior though, as they probably thought "surely these guys will dismount and actually help, so I'll jump on this now, knowing that I can't solo it. R-right?"

Re: "Skyscales are bad in general": I disagree. They were implemented much better into GW2 than ye olde flying mounts were in WoW, namely due to declining altitude, wall clinging, and being slower than the griffin (which has its own weaknesses), whereas in WoW, flying mounts were just "better" in all ways except immersion. (Thankfully dragonriding/"dynamic riding" is more immersive. Still not perfect. That's the GW2 griffin's spot.) The Skyscale in GW2 is mostly good for getting around awkward terrain and for that sudden need to AFK and not wanting to come back to a corpse. Sure, it's been abused, but the Fireball skill has made this abuse all the more noticeable and significant. Ultimately, the way the Skyscale has been designed, pre-Fireball, allows for players to decide that, if they don't like the Skyscale, they can choose not to use it, and they won't be "punished," unlike in WoW, where you're slower and having to go around the awkward terrain... and never have to interact with the ground ever. However, "just don't use the Skyscale if you don't like it" does nothing to solve other people using the Skyscale to Fireball-leech my bounty kill.

[Cuks.8241]

8 minutes ago, Kiki.9450 said:

Re: "Skyscales are bad in general": I disagree. They were implemented much better into GW2 than ye olde flying mounts were in WoW, namely due to declining altitude, wall clinging, and being slower than the griffin (which has its own weaknesses), whereas in WoW, flying mounts were just "better" in all ways except immersion. (Thankfully dragonriding/"dynamic riding" is more immersive. Still not perfect. That's the GW2 griffin's spot.) The Skyscale in GW2 is mostly good for getting around awkward terrain and for that sudden need to AFK and not wanting to come back to a corpse. Sure, it's been abused, but the Fireball skill has made this abuse all the more noticeable and significant. Ultimately, the way the Skyscale has been designed, pre-Fireball, allows for players to decide that, if they don't like the Skyscale, they can choose not to use it, and they won't be "punished," unlike in WoW, where you're slower and having to go around the awkward terrain... and never have to interact with the ground ever. However, "just don't use the Skyscale if you don't like it" does nothing to solve other people using the Skyscale to Fireball-leech my bounty kill.

With the new masteries we got very close to the never touch the ground type of mount (and you mostly just touch the top of a hill or a tree anyway, not really interacting with the map). I already though having 2 dashes is too much. One dash would be more balanced compared to other mounts. With bond of vigor, and since soto, if you're lucky, a second bond of vigor proc, you have up to 6 dashes which get you very far very fast. And if the map has leylines and updrafts you don't really need to touch the ground. Updrafts also replenish your resources for way too long after exiting it. It actually feels like a bug sometimes to me. It just keeps replenishing.

There is also invisibility mastery from LS4. Really the interaction with map on Skyscale is minimal if any at all on certain maps/parts of map. The only upside to wow is that you actually need to use abilities and think a bit about your route. 

[QueenKeriti.5176]

6 hours ago, Vavume.8065 said:

It's the new meta, Warrior tank, rest Hi-gh Dps.

This pun hurts me 😂

[frazazel.7501]

SotO zones feel challenging enough to navigate even with the super-charged skyscale. But what happens in the next expansion, when they can't assume that everyone has a skyscale, or any other mount?

[DeanBB.4268]

Next could be underground, with no space for mounts, so everyone is on foot, like "the good old days."

Rise of the Dredge! RotD!

[frazazel.7501]

Underground would be neat. They could do underwater, too. But both of those only delay the problem. Or are we never getting an expansion with a sky ever again?

[killforbeers.7534]

23 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Sounds like the warrior needed to "get gud" 😉

I mean it's Guild WARS after all. The Warrior should be leading by example....

*runs*

I think War is ANET's 2nd favorite class their 1st seems to be Guardian.

[Buzzbugs.1236]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, called it when we got the news about skyscale fireball being added with soto. Thought it will be a bad addition back then and still think so now. 

No, you didn't, because skyscale didn't have that ability years ago and we had no information about it getting added at that time either. No need to make up this stuff just so you can claim "you told us so". You evidently didn't. 

I claimed that Skyscales would be a bad thing for open maps. This thread is calling Skyscales an Epidemic. I'm pretty sure I was on point. The fireballs are just exacerbating the issue that was already present from the start.

You already knew that. But you couldn't resist coming into another thread just to single me out. This is getting ridiculous. You could have responded to anybody else..