The Skyscale Epidemic in Open World

[Vayne.8563]

On 1/25/2024 at 5:50 PM, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

I brought this up years ago on this forum back when Skyscales first got introduced and I got nothing but confused ratings as a response. Now it seems the honeymoon phase has worn off and the chickens have finally come home to roost. I hate to say I told you so..

2 likes, 1 laugh, 21 confused, and a sad face.  Look at all those roosting chickens. lol

[Buzzbugs.1236]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

2 likes, 1 laugh, 21 confused, and a sad face.  Look at all those roosting chickens. lol

Oh no!! The GW2 Forums doesn't agree with me! How will I ever be able to have my own opinion ever again?? How will I sleep at night???

[Buzzbugs.1236]

Instead of allowing another thread to turn into a popularity contest, here are just a few of the problems with Skyscale from the top of my head (EXCLUDING FIREBALLS)

- They Trivialize older maps that were once interesting and unique to traverse. Take tangled depths for instance. You now traverse every single map in the game by the exact same method (Skyscale).

- The Skyscale undermines the original design of events, such as bosses. Look at how it fundamentally changes how Mordremoth plays compared with how it was originally intended to be experienced.

- They made the other mounts pointless. You can pretend like that the other mounts are still relevant, but 9 times out of 10 you're going to pick the Skyscale.

- They made gliders and their accompanied masteries completely irrelevant. But gliders are just more old content. So who cares, right?

- It is the only ESSENTIAL mount. If you wish to keep up with the commander or the event chain and not fall behind, you need the mount. Nobody wants to feel like they are falling behind in a game about community open world events. It is the reason Anet made Skyscales easier to acquire in SotO and advertised it as a main feature of the expansion. READ THE WRITING ON THE WALL! Anet knows what the players are thinking. Those who don't have a Skyscale yet are thinking to themselves "kitten, I really need a Skyscale!".

- They are and will kill most of the sense of the adventure now and going forward. A good analogy that I saw another forum user make; Imagine if in Lord of the Rings Frodo just jumped on a Skyscale and flew to mount doom and dropped the ring? Movie over? Guild Wars 2 used to be a game about the Journey and not the destination. Flying mounts change this fundamental entirely. It is now all about jumping on the Skyscale and beelining directly to where you need to go. You can ignore most of the ground mobs and environments now...

World of Warcraft added flying mounts to their game over a decade ago and they were renown for being a bad addition to the game in the longer term. Arena Net completely ignored this for some reason. I am very glad we got mounts in the game, but I really wished they'd resisted the temptation to add in the terrible idea that is the flying mount. It's a great idea on paper, but it changes the game too much by trivializing content or simply making it obsolete.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

they ought to give siege turtle a laser, its only fair

[Randulf.7614]

16 minutes ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Instead of allowing another thread to turn into a popularity contest, here are just a few of the problems with Skyscale from the top of my head (EXCLUDING FIREBALLS)

- They Trivialize older maps that were once interesting and unique to traverse. Take tangled depths for instance. You now traverse every single map in the game by the exact same method (Skyscale).

- The Skyscale undermines the original design of events, such as bosses. Look at how it fundamentally changes how Mordremoth plays compared with how it was originally intended to be experienced.

- They made the other mounts pointless. You can pretend like that the other mounts are still relevant, but 9 times out of 10 you're going to pick the Skyscale.

- They made gliders and their accompanied masteries completely irrelevant. But gliders are just more old content. So who cares, right?

- It is the only ESSENTIAL mount. If you wish to keep up with the commander or the event chain and not fall behind, you need the mount. Nobody wants to feel like they are falling behind in a game about community open world events. It is the reason Anet made Skyscales easier to acquire in SotO and advertised it as a main feature of the expansion. READ THE WRITING ON THE WALL! Anet knows what the players are thinking. Those who don't have a Skyscale yet are thinking to themselves "kitten, I really need a Skyscale!".

- They are and will kill most of the sense of the adventure now and going forward. A good analogy that I saw another forum user make; Imagine if in Lord of the Rings Frodo just jumped on a Skyscale and flew to mount doom and dropped the ring? Movie over? Guild Wars 2 used to be a game about the Journey and not the destination. Flying mounts change this fundamental entirely. It is now all about jumping on the Skyscale and beelining directly to where you need to go. You can ignore most of the ground mobs and environments now...

World of Warcraft added flying mounts to their game over a decade ago and they were renown for being a bad addition to the game in the longer term. Arena Net completely ignored this for some reason. I am very glad we got mounts in the game, but I really wished they'd resisted the temptation to add in the terrible idea that is the flying mount. It's a great idea on paper, but it changes the game too much by trivializing content or simply making it obsolete.

I don't disagree with most of this, but the flip side are the positives and these appear to outweigh the negaitves listed where it counts. They attracts new players, they are incredibly popular, they increase engagement by reducing staleness over time and ultimately they bring more people and life to the game.

Do they make gliders, grapples and half the mounts redundant? Sure, I can't really argue against that. But is their inclusion hurting the game? No quite the opposite. And the fireball complaint is hugely over -exaggerated from the OP anyway.

Unfortunately the price of revitalisation has cost the integrity of some other features. The answer to this is not to reduce the impact of the skyscale, but to make the other things more attractive

- Glive gliders combat skills everywhere

- Give more skills to other mounts - eg jackals to get more portals or the ability to create their own portals

- Adjust any affected meta events accordingly which are being cheesed (Claw of Jormag)

Sure there is extra work involved, but nerfing the skyscale is not the answer. It's a flagship feature now and is a key selling point. And frankly I find the fireball fun. I don't susbtitute proper combat for it - neither  do most players - but bringing something new and fresh and minimal in impact should not be shunned due to a few bad eggs.

And was GW2 really about the journey prior? That I do disagree with. GW1 certainly was, but not GW2. When you could waypoint from maguuma to Ascalon in a second, that killed off the journeying aspect. Mounts certainly made things a bit smaller, but the benefits of the conveneicne and fun seemed to be more popular and important

Edited January 28 by Randulf.7614

[Buzzbugs.1236]

19 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I don't disagree with most of this, but the flip side are the positives and these appear to outweigh the negaitves listed where it counts. They attracts new players, they are incredibly popular, they increase engagement by reducing staleness over time and ultimately they bring more people and life to the game.

Do they make gliders, grapples and half the mounts redundant? Sure, I can't really argue against that. But is their inclusion hurting the game? No quite the opposite. And the fireball complaint is hugely over -exaggerated from the OP anyway.

Unfortunately the price of revitalisation has cost the integrity of some other features. The answer to this is not to reduce the impact of the skyscale, but to make the other things more attractive

- Glive gliders combat skills everywhere

- Give more skills to other mounts - eg jackals to get more portals or the ability to create their own portals

- Adjust any affected meta events accordingly which are being cheesed (Claw of Jormag)

Sure there is extra work involved, but nerfing the skyscale is not the answer. It's a flagship feature now and is a key selling point. And frankly I find the fireball fun. I don't susbtitute proper combat for it - neither  do most players - but bringing something new and fresh and minimal in impact should not be shunned due to a few bad eggs.

And was GW2 really about the journey prior? That I do disagree with. GW1 certainly was, but not GW2. When you could waypoint from maguuma to Ascalon in a second, that killed off the journeying aspect. Mounts certainly made things a bit smaller, but the benefits of the conveneicne and fun seemed to be more popular and important

Thank you for the decency of writing a well thought out response.

I never argued that Skyscales wouldn't be attractive. They are quite the opposite, really, like all convenience items are. And who doesn't want to fly a Dragon??! So they are definitely a selling point and are why they are so prominent in the SotO marketing (besides the actual fact you need a Skyscale if you are at all serious about playing GW2).

My main point was if Skyscales never existed in the first place would the community be begging for them every day? Very unlikely. They'd probably fall into the same category as features like Housing. A nice idea, but they were not needed. Other MMO's already did flying mounts, and I believe GW2 was already being creative enough with it's other mounts to make mounting in GW2 feel special and unique. Coming  from that perspective, the Skyscale just feels cheap.

Edited January 28 by Buzzbugs.1236

[Linken.6345]

13 minutes ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Thank you for the decency of writing a well thought out response.

I never argued that Skyscales wouldn't be attractive. They are quite the opposite, really, like all convenience items are. And who doesn't want to fly a Dragon??! So they are definitely a selling point and are why they are so prominent in the SotO marketing (besides the actual fact you need a Skyscale if you are at all serious about playing GW2).

My main point was if Skyscales never existed in the first place would the community be begging for them every day? Very unlikely. They'd probably fall into the same category as features like Housing. A nice idea, but they were not needed. Other MMO's already did flying mounts, and I believe GW2 was already being creative enough with it's other mounts to make mounting in GW2 feel special and unique. Coming  from that perspective, the Skyscale just feels cheap.

To bad gw2 have a better flying mount before the skyscale

 

Edited January 28 by Linken.6345

[Manpag.6421]

On 1/26/2024 at 11:02 PM, Mell.4873 said:

You want to know other mount is OP, the Skimmer.

The Skimmer hover makes you immune to all damage, letting you skip alot of open world mechanics like traps or pulls. It's dismounting is also not an aoe (its some sort of line) so it is very easy to use to harvest resources while not triggering combat to re-mount after. 

Not to mention its the only mount that can go underwater. 

Skimmer is neither OP, nor the only mount that can go underwater. Its dodge is useful, but it’s still frail enough that you can mistime it and end up dismounted anyway. And I think that was intentional, because it’s literally the mount whose primary purpose is crossing map hazards like quicksand and sulphurous haze.

Anyway, on topic: I do think fireball should at least use some of your flight meter, as if you’d moved. That way, you couldn’t just fly in place and spam fireballs while taking no damage, because you’d eventually be forced to land, but it wouldn’t adversely affect content designed around the skyscale fireball like target shooting and the Amnytas meta because you they already have enough orbs/updrafts to mitigate altitude loss.

[Vayne.8563]

6 hours ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Oh no!! The GW2 Forums doesn't agree with me! How will I ever be able to have my own opinion ever again?? How will I sleep at night???

 

6 hours ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Oh no!! The GW2 Forums doesn't agree with me! How will I ever be able to have my own opinion ever again?? How will I sleep at night???

You claim about all the chickens coming home to roost, but there's not a lot of evidence of that. There's a couple of complaints.  It's not even a storm in a teacup. If you brag about having some sort of numbers backing you up, and someone points out you don't, then what you said is incorrect. It's pretty simple.

[Buzzbugs.1236]

12 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You claim about all the chickens coming home to roost, but there's not a lot of evidence of that. There's a couple of complaints.  It's not even a storm in a teacup. If you brag about having some sort of numbers backing you up, and someone points out you don't, then what you said is incorrect. It's pretty simple.

That's not how it works. Just because a majority think a certain way, that doesn't make it the correct thing. Maybe you just failed at history? It is filled with your kind of logic that ultimately leads to disaster.

I couldn't care less if 100 people agree with me or only 1 person. It has no sway over me. So please go try your bullying tactics elsewhere.

 

Edited January 28 by Buzzbugs.1236

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

That's not how it works. Just because a majority think a certain way, that doesn't make it the correct thing. Maybe you just failed at history? It is filled with your kind of logic that ultimately leads to disaster.

I couldn't care less if 100 people agree with me or only 1 person. It has no sway over me. So please go try your bullying tactics elsewhere.

 

Okay, I'll explain it to you differently.

The expressions you used, the chickens came home to roost, implies you did something wrong and now you have to pay for it.  We didn't do anything, since Anet were the ones that put skyscales in the game.  I seriously doubt Anet is thinking they are paying for putting them in now. This is some fringe probably for a tiny group of players, and if that's the case, of most people don't see these problems, and most people enjoy the game more with skyscales, then the chickens indeed did not come home to roost. 

Most people aren't sitting around going, man I really regret the fact that skycales were added to the game, nor do I believe Anet is. This your use of that term is at very least a bad choice of words, if not completely wrong.  Shrugs.

Edited January 28 by Vayne.8563

[Ashen.2907]

I dont have a skyscale, and dont want one, and generally dont have a problem keeping up. I often, when I bother with OW PvE, outpace those on skyscales.

[Manpag.6421]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I dont have a skyscale, and dont want one, and generally dont have a problem keeping up. I often, when I bother with OW PvE, outpace those on skyscales.

I would agree with this, actually. I do have the skyscale, but I don’t find it that fun to ride, so I tend not to unless something explicitly requires it. I think people do get so used to the convenience of their skyscale that they think nothing else can keep up with it, but it very much depends on the map. Skyscale is good at going over terrain that you’d need to go around on a non-flying mount, but it isn’t fast. Outside of maps like Dragonfall and Amnytas which were explicitly designed with flight in mind, it should be possible to match or beat skyscale depending on what mounts you have access to and what masteries you have trained.

With that said, I definitely wouldn’t oppose buffs to other mounts to make them more useful, because almost all of them feel better to use than the skyscale to me.

[Teknomancer.4895]

There seems to be at least some agreement on the "aerial fireball not doing much if any damage" thing, but it also seems inconsistent.

On 1/25/2024 at 10:55 AM, Teknomancer.4895 said:

If I try to fireball most enemies without being within X distance of them (whatever that range actually is) then they just regen to full in less than a second and then no amount of additional fireball damage will even make them break a sweat.

 

On 1/25/2024 at 7:05 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

In my personal experience, Skyscales don't do that much damage to begin with

 

On 1/25/2024 at 7:40 PM, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

skyscales  plinking away at the bounty aren't helping and that's the point. They're doing just enough damage to get credit, but not enough to really contribute. It wasn't going down with their "help" in the air

 

On 1/26/2024 at 5:22 PM, idpersona.3810 said:

I wonder if shooting fireballs from outside the room will contribute damage

 

20 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

fireball allowing players to easly leech events from the air while in reality not even realistically contributing anything

Is there anything published anywhere that would explain the discrepancies in what people are observing? Have DPS tests been done somewhere (not sure if the golem would even work for this)? If nothing else, it might clarify how close you have to be and/or which maps it works with vs not. 🤷‍♂️

[Yaki.9563]

I think the skyscale was a mistake. The brilliance of the GW2 mount system was that each mount had it's niche and none overlapped the other (except perhaps Raptor and Jackal). Then along came the Skyscale. It's too good at everything. People will argue that the raptor or jackal will be slightly faster along the ground but one uphill and you're a lot slower. Or you're only going short distances, like between chests in Silverwastes, then the double dash is superior.

The thing is, most people like being lazy. To be able to sit on one mount that does everything is just more fun for them than having to use 5 different mounts. Oh well.

[costepj.5120]

So your argument is that it was a mistake to allow people to have more fun in game?

[Manpag.6421]

1 hour ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Is there anything published anywhere that would explain the discrepancies in what people are observing? Have DPS tests been done somewhere (not sure if the golem would even work for this)? If nothing else, it might clarify how close you have to be and/or which maps it works with vs not. 🤷‍♂️

It’s not just about proximity, though that is a factor. The main discrepancy is whether people are solo or not. All mobs in the game will lose aggro and start regenerating if they can’t reach any targets to attack back; if you’re solo, that means just being on your skyscale in the air will make them regenerate, especially if they’re melee. It’s basically a safeguard against exactly this sniping-from-safety behaviour, but it doesn’t work if even a single target remains on the ground, within range of their attacks.

Even on the ground, the range of fireball is so high that you can hit things that will decide you’re out of their aggro range because they won’t run 4,000 feet out of range to attack.

1 minute ago, Yaki.9563 said:

The thing is, most people like being lazy. To be able to sit on one mount that does everything is just more fun for them than having to use 5 different mounts. Oh well.

I don’t disagree, but I’d be a hypocrite if I said that “being lazy” and staying on one mount all the time is inherently bad. Imo, the issue here isn’t necessarily that people can remain almost constantly mounted, because that can be a really fun and chill way to play; it’s that there’s no challenge/skill involved to using skyscale like this, and their contribution is correspondingly low. The lack of challenge is one of the reasons I rarely use it.

I think the ideal solution would be to change it to somehow have both a higher skill floor and a higher skill ceiling. If the base damage was basically 0 but there were things you could actively do to charge them up and make the damage viable, you couldn’t passively leech, but if you wanted to do things using your skyscale, you could pull your weight more.

[kharmin.7683]

16 minutes ago, Yaki.9563 said:

I think the skyscale was a mistake. The brilliance of the GW2 mount system was that each mount had it's niche and none overlapped the other (except perhaps Raptor and Jackal). Then along came the Skyscale. It's too good at everything. People will argue that the raptor or jackal will be slightly faster along the ground but one uphill and you're a lot slower. Or you're only going short distances, like between chests in Silverwastes, then the double dash is superior.

The thing is, most people like being lazy. To be able to sit on one mount that does everything is just more fun for them than having to use 5 different mounts. Oh well.

It's a good thing that the skyscale is completely optional.  Any/All content can be completed with the other mounts/glider/leyline/updrafts, etc...   One can choose to not be lazy and use all of the other tools at one's disposal.

[Cuks.8241]

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

It's a good thing that the skyscale is completely optional.  Any/All content can be completed with the other mounts/glider/leyline/updrafts, etc...   One can choose to not be lazy and use all of the other tools at one's disposal.

Its a mmo, not a single player game. Its not only about completing content, its about playing with other players on equal terms.

And with Skyscale many open world group  gameplay patterns have devolved to a big flock of Skyscales skipping everything, from traversal obstacles to event mechanics. Dragon Stand last phase is probably the best example, where new players will never experience the epic fight. And if they dont have Skyscale yet, they will probably not even manage to participate before its over.

[Albadaran.1283]

This is a useless discussion. Skyscales ar a fact. Removing them or nerving them won't happen. And the example the opp is giving is not a fair one: Why go on such quests if you can't even kill the oponent yourself?? You would die anyway, skyscales or not!

 

[Linken.6345]

11 hours ago, Manpag.6421 said:

Skimmer is neither OP, nor the only mount that can go underwater.

What other mount can go underwater because  I for sure missed that memo.

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

What other mount can go underwater because  I for sure missed that memo.

🐢

[jason.1083]

19 hours ago, Liewec.2896 said:

call me crazy if you want but i want MORE mounted combat options!

and yep those players not helping are being foolish, the fireball is nice, but its not really for fighting bosses...

don't blame the tool because some players are using it poorly!

It's not like they do much anyway, if said players want to finish with whatever they want to kill in this century Fireballing it doesn't help. 

Also to get back to your first point, with all the things Skyscales can do already we could easily have some kind of PvP Skyscale Arena, would love to see that. 

[starlinvf.1358]

17 hours ago, Buzzbugs.1236 said:

Instead of allowing another thread to turn into a popularity contest, here are just a few of the problems with Skyscale from the top of my head (EXCLUDING FIREBALLS)

- They Trivialize older maps that were once interesting and unique to traverse. Take tangled depths for instance. You now traverse every single map in the game by the exact same method (Skyscale).

- The Skyscale undermines the original design of events, such as bosses. Look at how it fundamentally changes how Mordremoth plays compared with how it was originally intended to be experienced.

- They made the other mounts pointless. You can pretend like that the other mounts are still relevant, but 9 times out of 10 you're going to pick the Skyscale.

- They made gliders and their accompanied masteries completely irrelevant. But gliders are just more old content. So who cares, right?

- It is the only ESSENTIAL mount. If you wish to keep up with the commander or the event chain and not fall behind, you need the mount. Nobody wants to feel like they are falling behind in a game about community open world events. It is the reason Anet made Skyscales easier to acquire in SotO and advertised it as a main feature of the expansion. READ THE WRITING ON THE WALL! Anet knows what the players are thinking. Those who don't have a Skyscale yet are thinking to themselves "kitten, I really need a Skyscale!".

- They are and will kill most of the sense of the adventure now and going forward. A good analogy that I saw another forum user make; Imagine if in Lord of the Rings Frodo just jumped on a Skyscale and flew to mount doom and dropped the ring? Movie over? Guild Wars 2 used to be a game about the Journey and not the destination. Flying mounts change this fundamental entirely. It is now all about jumping on the Skyscale and beelining directly to where you need to go. You can ignore most of the ground mobs and environments now...

World of Warcraft added flying mounts to their game over a decade ago and they were renown for being a bad addition to the game in the longer term. Arena Net completely ignored this for some reason. I am very glad we got mounts in the game, but I really wished they'd resisted the temptation to add in the terrible idea that is the flying mount. It's a great idea on paper, but it changes the game too much by trivializing content or simply making it obsolete.

You mean Griffon, right?

[Linken.6345]

46 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

🐢

Right hardly use that thing 😁

Its good to taxi alts around waypoints and to vistas tho.

Edited January 28 by Linken.6345