Condition Build- Balance

[Alternatex.5734]

I've plaything decent amount hours and condition need get toned down. I will make points to why. Unlike power builds they don't need 2-3 stats to make the build really effective giving option to go more tranky with sustain. Unlike power builds where you have put more stat and have greater counter play. I understand the need for it but it's to effective combined with celestial for wvw mode. We can argue power builds need work on damage output to (which they do need work), but power skills are more telegraphed there a lot fewer telegraphed/noticeable condition application skills. Boon application really helps boost every build but it really puts condition way up there. Just off boons condition builds can do good damage from conditions and power damage off might.

1. only really requires condition damage/duration for effectiveness

2. ticks still hit you in evade frames/block frames even some application like fire aura (evade/damage skills)

3. condition ticks ignores toughness/boons (protection), skills that negate power damage (endure pain) few others.

4. condition application/stacks application is problem because they can apply it so consistently you can't remove it fast enough or condition like confusion punishes you on condition clear skill

Edited February 3 by Alternatex.5734

[Deadmoose.6594]

The counters that they built in for mitigating cond are just kitten poor. Swap to weapon and remove a cond??? Thats it??? I don’t know about you but usually if I’m fighting against cond, I’ll have 8+ cond types on me at one time. One doesn’t cut it. There’s some other defensive things and shouts that some specs have but thats really it.

[Deadmoose.6594]

The other issue I think is some circles seem reasonable to get out of, whereas some specs kitten out circles like they ate at taco bell and couldn’t find the bathroom in time. Scourge just craps them out, rev, ele, scrapper, its a little overboard. Put some of these specs together in a match where you are competing over a node and gg.

 

edit: don’t let me forget DH

Edited February 3 by Deadmoose.6594

[Alternatex.5734]

it would be nice to see if condition removal, applied to damaging condition/stacks (higher stacks) instead of all the non-damaging cover conditions you can deal with. we have counter play like resistance for non-damaging conditions. amount times i try remove burning or condition before die is not damage over time.

Edited February 3 by Alternatex.5734

[Flowki.7194]

The condition builds that are a real problem are firstly Czerker/mesmer. They spew out too many condi and confusion compounds the issue. Confusion is the real problem with those builds, if you don't have, or your clense did not remove it, then you have to wait it out or take massive damage, which is the same effect as an "immune" for the zerker/mesmer (or you just take massive additional damge). Mesmer is worse than zerker, simply becuase of its other mechanics of block/target drop/invuln and stealth. Both specs though, it is WAY easier for them apply the condi bombs+confusion than it is to outplay it, which is aweful game design.

 

The other problematic builds are ranger/thief. They spew out far too much poison too easily. Poison is way too powreful to be spammed like that. Rev is a better example of balance, you can only apply it on legend swap (short range), on 3rd mace auto hit (interrupted if you use other abilitys) and CC, through relic (obvious counter play of stability). Applying poison, just like confusion, needs to be harder.

 

Many condi builds are fine on a mechanical balance level (effectivenesss aside), like ele, rev, and all the above would be fine if not spamming confusion/poison so easily.

 

Condi builds in general tend to have more natural sustain, but some take that too far, like scourge. Thats not good game design. However, overall.. if condi builds are correctly balanced, power still has quite the advantege, skill provided. It is more punishing to miss a vital dodge vs a power build, than it is to miss a dodge vs a "balanced" condi build. That is EXACTLY why the likes of DH is so good, high damage single hits, which can punish other specs far more for missing a dodge, than a lot of those specs can punish the DH for missing a dodge.

 

I dueled a friend on this forum who is good with power vindi, he beats my core build becuase I end up missing a key dodge/block on something and take massive damage. However, when he is on his condi build it was a stale mate, becuase you can recover from some smaller mistakes when fighting a medium damage or sustained condi build. The forgiving nature works both ways.

 

Equally though, on core rev, I dueld a player that is more skilled than me. As WB is so front loaded, it is a locomotive train holding W, always rushing at you, smashing dps keys. I lost those duels in <20 seconds. He then went to power vindi, which is not front loaded, meaning I could actually CC and pressure back, he had to los abuse in those duels but still won (this is not about me, but the comparison of how he had to alter playstlye based on power spec). Its not all just about "skill".. fron't loaded power (WB, mesmer etc) has a huge advantedge over many specs, becuase they rely less on dodges, due to having block while attack, putting the other player massively on the back foot/punishment for mistakes. He then went to condi herald, and lost in <20 seconds, becuase you cannot punish a missed dodge on condi near as much.. and now I have the chance to punish him for mistakes.

 

I should add. I don't expect my condi build to be beating power builds in a 1v1 all skill equal, as this is a group fighting build. However, WB/DH is too front loaded, herald and hollo are far better balanced in that way of skill input along with punishment for mistakes or lack of dodge. Czeker and mesmer are basically the condi virsions of WB/DH, front loaded mitigation with high condi bomb damage. Both styles are broken game design.. and are oppressing spec diversity becuase of their "fool proof" front loaded mechanics. Goto a ranked game with anything less than 3+blocks/immunes and you are at a huge dissadvantege, unless scourge. That eliminates so many potential spec/playstyles across classes, and why ranked has now essentailly devolved into necro/warrior/gaurdian +mirage/SB across avarage players. Pros seem to be gravitating to hollo, the new cata.

 

Edited February 3 by Flowki.7194

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

just nerf condi already holy kitten

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Core guard alone pretty much makes condis irrelevant unless you have someone CC them (usually on a power build).  

Not sure how anet balances around people fighting in the aisles and actively running away from supports? 

Will say the cover condi deal is problematic though--would be nice if cleanses targeted different things or could trait to target different things first.  

Edited February 3 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Arheundel.6451]

12 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

The other issue I think is some circles seem reasonable to get out of, whereas some specs kitten out circles like they ate at taco bell and couldn’t find the bathroom in time. Scourge just craps them out, rev, ele, scrapper, its a little overboard. Put some of these specs together in a match where you are competing over a node and gg.

 

edit: don’t let me forget DH

You forget chronomancer and reaper with procmancer and similar....ha wait..you play those 2 specs, reason they miss from your list

[Deadmoose.6594]

11 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

You forget chronomancer and reaper with procmancer and similar....ha wait..you play those 2 specs, reason they miss from your list

I don’t see a lot of cond chronos, I play power personally depending on the situation. Really just giving people stacks of vulnerability, which alone doesn’t kill them. Reaper aoe doesn’t seem that overpowered, its just chill and fear with staff and some elites but they aren’t bringing opponents down. In the aoe cond conversation I think the ones that do burning or other damage types are more to blame.

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

I don’t see a lot of cond chronos, I play power personally depending on the situation. Really just giving people stacks of vulnerability, which alone doesn’t kill them. Reaper aoe doesn’t seem that overpowered, its just chill and fear with staff and some elites but they aren’t bringing opponents down. In the aoe cond conversation I think the ones that do burning or other damage types are more to blame.

What specs that apply burning specifically? becuase im almost certain that isn't the problem, compared to confusion/poison spam.

Edited February 4 by Flowki.7194

[vilesoldier.9826]

41 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

What specs that apply burning specifically? becuase im almost certain that isn't the problem, compared to confusion/poison spam.

 

@Azure The Heartless.3261 It's happening.🍿🍿

[Saiyan.1704]

35 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

@Azure The Heartless.3261 It's happening.🍿🍿

The cage match we wanted. I'm betting a Legendary Bolt on Flowki.

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

What specs that apply burning specifically? becuase im almost certain that isn't the problem, compared to confusion/poison spam.

Go Flowki !

[Eddbopkins.2630]

If there is a condition that shuts down power damage like weakness does, why isn't there a condition that shuts down condi damage. Why can condi users put out the same condition over and over again without a cool down? Power users cant use the same power damage skill cuz it goes on cool down. But condi users have 3+ ways to put out the same condi damage without rest.  

You can't dodge a condi tick. Why? Cuz the devs favor condi. All the new weapons are going to be condi based. I fuuuuuuucken hate the way gw2 is developed.

[Eddie.9143]

just give herald condi removal on rising momentum - remove 1 condi every 2 seconds while using upkeep skills

or give herald condi removal on the first or second press of facets.

then we good. 

[arazoth.7290]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:57 PM, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

If there is a condition that shuts down power damage like weakness does, why isn't there a condition that shuts down condi damage. Why can condi users put out the same condition over and over again without a cool down? Power users cant use the same power damage skill cuz it goes on cool down. But condi users have 3+ ways to put out the same condi damage without rest.  

You can't dodge a condi tick. Why? Cuz the devs favor condi. All the new weapons are going to be condi based. I fuuuuuuucken hate the way gw2 is developed.

Because cleansing exists I think. cleansing condis off, reduces the damage output a lot too. You can get supports that help this even more. 

So that's another way to mitigate that.

Condi damage gets overtime and more time to mitigate it by cleansing it off.

Power damage isn't overtime and instant hard damage.

So the initial attack can on both be dodged to avoid it, but if hit power damage is all and condi can be avoid through cleansing.

Yea their are aoes and all that put up a lot, but so are there for power. And you better don't stand in these aoes if they do hard power damage or condis. 

 

 

What is a problem about some condi, is the amount of stacks some get put up in pvp. At that point it's instant high damage and harder to cleanse the really high damage. For example A mirrage did put up on me 35 stacks of confusion in 1 second with some other conditions covered. Such ridiculous amount in such short time is a problem indeed. And I think in this part are the most complains.

Imo A solution for condition builds in general for pvp=> hard cap amount of condition stacks that can be gained as "burst". It should still be able to enough pressure/damage to be a threat like power builds. So they should try to find the soft spot for that. 

 

[Sahne.6950]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:57 PM, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

If there is a condition that shuts down power damage like weakness does, why isn't there a condition that shuts down condi damage.

adding a condition..... to battle condition spam..... 

This is flawless. /s

 

coupled with the "you cant dodge conditicks"-argument....  oh boy....    10/10 Forum.

Edited February 6 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

The thing is.....

Condidamage is way to high....

power damage is way to high.....

the devs are.....     you get it.

 

The whole thing needs a major overhaul! the way it is right now is just bland and soulless...       it forces you to look at your boon/condibar wayyyy to much.

This is cool and all... for veterans,.... cuz they have developed musclememory against pretty much every build and can react to the burst basically with their eyes closed, while typing a whatsapp....  So they have free "mental capacity" to actually look at that condibar.

But for any newcomer its wayyyyyy to overwhelming..... and one of the many reasons why this gamemode is barely gaining any new players.

Edited February 6 by Sahne.6950

[Arheundel.6451]

52 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The thing is.....

Condidamage is way to high....

power damage is way to high.....

the devs are.....     you get it.

 

The whole thing needs a major overhaul! the way it is right now is just bland and soulless...       it forces you to look at your boon/condibar wayyyy to much.

This is cool and all... for veterans,.... cuz they have developed musclememory against pretty much every build and can react to the burst basically with their eyes closed, while typing a whatsapp....  So they have free "mental capacity" to actually look at that condibar.

But for any newcomer its wayyyyyy to overwhelming..... and one of the many reasons why this gamemode is barely gaining any new players.

This is where the balance should go..and this is what the devs should strive for now...

 

[Alternatex.5734]

I just want to be able to play the game, I understand there's condition clear but as soon as another condition player comes into the mix with amount stacks they are able to stack on you. Its pretty much like fighting power and don't have time to clear it fast enough. There is more way more counter play vs power then the condition builds. The condition damage now days is pretty much like power, resistance is helpful but with amount of conditions that cover damaging conditions makes condition clear really hard without support.  There are some classes that have better condition clearing abilities I understand. I agree power/condition damage both need get looked at because one shots are real but harder to pull off.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Let me throw you a curveball here.

In pvp I main core warrior support. Yup, you heard it right.
And it works quite well when paired with another support or some sneaky tactics (not telling them I'm supp, making them more afraid for personal safety).

The reason? Because i bring tools many have but refuse to use.
Like resistance, resolution and healing allies for each damaging condi I cleanse (Shrug it Off).
Don't even get me started on Banner of Tactics. It has "Anti scourge" written all over it.
Fears? Nope. Blinds? Nope. Weakness? Nope. CC? Nope. Boon corrupt? Nope (Fear from stab gets cancelled by resistance and the latter pulses so it'll be right back).

There is an ample toolbox for dealing with condi buidls.
As far as the issues I agree with, I would propose doing one of these two things:
 

• make resistance deny poison's healing reduction
• or make cleanses target damaging conditions first if target has resistance

[Hotride.2187]

I don't remember fighting a serious/functional condi build in conquest recently (aside from condi zerker which honestly is more like a power burst zerker disguised as a condi build, but also functional). But just on principle, sure, nerf condi. Feels like garbage to fight most of the time, per definition it has to be tanky to have a chance to kill you (or bursty, in which case just use a power build, its redundant).

Edited February 6 by Hotride.2187

[Dadnir.5038]

Here we are again with the "condi hate" in sPvP. Can't we get once in a while a thread that mirror this one on strike damage with similarly ridiculous arguments like:

• Resolution, condition duration reduction mods and condition damage reduction mods don't reduce strike damage.
• Cleanse don't remove strike damage.
• cleanse skills/effects have a shorter average CD and are more widespread than strike damage nullification skills.
• Traits that procs on removing condition don't proc when you just take strike damage... etc.

I mean, that would be novelty not some kind of overused biased arguments that we've seen over and over again since 2012.

[Grimjack.8130]

maybe u can dodge the skills that apply the conditions instead of trying to dodge the condition ticks! hope this helps 💖

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

maybe u can dodge the skills that apply the conditions instead of trying to dodge the condition ticks! hope this helps 💖

Sure...please count my dodges...2 should be enough against condi reaper, condi thief, condi druid, grenade engi and some other random condi build...all in the same team....all spamming AoE condis in 360 radius area...thank you for the kind suggestion