Can we get challenge yet not dps check content please

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Epsilon Indi.2031 said:

I wonder if you would have said the same thing about Tequatl back when that meta event was first changed and started getting regular kills. 🤔

Oh, original Tequatl was in that same spot Soo Won is now. The difference is that encounter did get nerfed way, way more than DE. The effect of megalaser "fix" alone were visible practically immediately, and there were other changes as well.

If you don't remember that megalaser change i am talking about made laser blast after each battery defence phase not only bring Tequatl down for burn phase, but also deal actual damage (it now shaves full 5% of its max hp, which means players need to deal 20% damage instead of 25% to trigger the next phase). This allowed for near back-to back battery defence/burn phase transitions with Teq turning into a pinata past initial 25% damage done. (i say "near" because initially not every group was able to deal enough dps per burst to trigger initial transition - but all of them were able to deal enough to force that transition anyway after Teq woke up before bonewall happened).

The second impactful change was the condi damage rework. Even if Anet tried to balance it by buffing boss HPs to compensate, it still helped - and large part of that HP buff was rolled back very soon anyway.

DE did receive some nerfs, and it did make the fight easier, but it's nowhere close to what happened to Teq. Most ad-hoc unorganized pug squads still wiped on Soo Won even after those nerfs. Success rate on DE changed only with time, due to less and less players attempting it. This was not the case on Teq, where nerfs caused an immediate change in completion rate with completely random maps suddenly winning where they'd have no chance before.

[uberkingkong.8041]

I'm not a fan of DPS check, sure I can study up on snowcrows and the meta rotation and get it. But I'm not really looking forward to dps check challenges.

I want more other stuff, and have it be challenging and rewarding.

Instead it

includes, racing, having to race to the next event.

Includes jumping puzzle, like halloween one

Includes bell choir

Includes a dancing event.

 

Ex. Say Soo-Wong, if you had to have like people doing jumping puzzle on the boss fight. People doing bell choir during the boss fight. People racing during the boss fight.

Why is it gotta be DPS check and thats it? I want more challenge outside of DPS checks.

Edited February 5 by uberkingkong.8041

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

12 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not much for the top few percenters. It is however, at the same time, a lot in a game where most players do not even come close to that 50% (hovering more in the 10 to 20% range).

Considering doing the bare minimum is already 15-20k DPS on most builds doing 10-20% damage is a joke.

[Jianyu.7065]

I agree with this big time. I'm over going into Strikes having to list my role. Especially when you're not doing anything except slow-burning one damage-sponge boss.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

Man, can you imagine having to do a jumping puzzle in the middle of a boss fight, especially Soo-won? (We can't even get people to stand in the greens and do the stupid memory thing to get back up to the platform, which feels like a jumping puzzle.) I feel like we've had a fractal recently that involved a jumping puzzle to get to the boss, and there were some impressive screeches of incoherent rage about it. 😂

[ArchonWing.9480]

Random mini-games in a boss fight? Well, maybe if you really hate your players.

Here is one of the more despised raids in Lost Ark:

So at various points during the fight (you can see this at 1:16), the game turns into a side scroller for no reason,  and it's implemented in the most annoying way possible. (you must use  arrow keys). There are also random pits which you can die instantly. Also if you die, you just don't screw yourself. You must break some things that will release a curse on a random player outside and they will die if you fail to break the curse. Oh, and each side scroller is harder than the next, so usually you grab the weakest players to do the first ones (well 3 is harder than 4, but who's keeping track). The player in the video did the first and easiest, but you can find the rest elsewhere.

Now all and all, all 4 players (it's a 4 player raid) must complete the side scroller at least once. What happens if someone dies before they do it? Well, unless you can nuke the boss before the minigame pops up, you're screwed. However, you generally have to be somewhat overgeared to skip the last minigame, and extremely to skip the 3rd. I hope you memorized your rotation, because you'll need it.

Oh and that's not it. Also facing you are gauntlets that feature instant death saws (5:21)  that also interrupt the fight oh and btw all these minigames also count towards the enrage timer. This game likes to simply run it down no matter what. And there's also a random mechanic that shows up that will flip your health (eg, if you have 90% health, you become 10%) and you resolve that by getting very low health which runs the risk of you dying. How do you get around this? You just do more dps so he doesn't have time to do it.

If you managed all that, the game then makes you do another puzzle, which if you fail a few times, well... you're doing that all over again.

So what was the solution to this? Well, the frequent advice was to not do the raid and gear up by doing the next one. Technically this is not required, but it gives you a certain damage boost that if you don't have, you will be gatekept from later raids. Talk about a catch-22.

Incidentally, this is also the only raid without a normal/hard mode. It would seem hard was the default? I see people that are ilvl 1540+ failing it. And yes while those aren't good players, it's ridiclous considering raid progression went like:

Clown (This raid): 1475

Brelshaza: 1490 (unskippable)

Brekshaza last gate: 1520

Kayangel: 1540 (also can get the damage boost from this one)

So people that could beat the content 2 raids up were failing this...

This raid was so bad, the the population started a freefall that it never recovered from (well, until an even worse raid came out).

I mean, this fight is actually pretty fun if you play with friends and know the fight. But without doing it ridiculously over geared and with strangers? Horrible. Doing this on a weekly basis? Yeesh.

Eventually this raid became obsolete because you can get the bonus (a better one) from a later raid. Which isn't nearly as annoying, but is still annoying. Regardless, this is basically how to kill all your casual players 101.

Edited February 5 by ArchonWing.9480

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Considering doing the bare minimum is already 15-20k DPS on most builds doing 10-20% damage is a joke.

No. Not on most builds. On the relatively small number of good builds most of the population happens to not be running, because they aren't even aware they are there.

[uberkingkong.8041]

57 minutes ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

Man, can you imagine having to do a jumping puzzle in the middle of a boss fight, especially Soo-won? (We can't even get people to stand in the greens and do the stupid memory thing to get back up to the platform, which feels like a jumping puzzle.) I feel like we've had a fractal recently that involved a jumping puzzle to get to the boss, and there were some impressive screeches of incoherent rage about it. 😂

There is actually, sort of, the wisps jumping back up to the platform is some form of jumping puzzle.

If I recall right rockband had you do emotes to win.

Don't think there is any major boss fight where you gotta do some racing too. Think of Starfox after andross dies, you have to fly outta there safely. GW2 could do a roller beetle thing, maybe a phase the boss turns into that thing mario kart where it eats people if you go into it. Could have it where you gotta race outta there, race to the next phase.

Bell Choir, I don't think is any major boss fight where you have to do a bell choir emsemble.

 

I just would variety, even other things like fishing, instead of dps check boss fights, how about a more fun boss fight then a sweaty dps check.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. Not on most builds. On the relatively small number of good builds most of the population happens to not be running, because they aren't even aware they are there.

Yes, on most builds. If you go to do a Strike or a Raid you're bringing builds that are designed to work there, the same way you bring gear and build for PvP or WvW that works and not some random thrown together thing one made after unlocking the third spec slot.

You can't complain about a set DPS being too high for people, because said people can't be bothered to spend abou 30 seconds looking up a simple build. "It's high damage, because people run kitten builds" makes no sense.

[Leger.3724]

18 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Lol yup. Those 2 strikes and 1 fractal per expac are really overwhelming the amount of casual content available (the other 99% of the game). Better race to the bottom chasing the absolute lowest-common-denominator imbecile demographic and remove all buttons from the game before some casual tries to read a skill tooltip and has a brain aneurysm. This is the absolute dumbest thread.

I get it, sort of. I personally haven't experienced it but I can understand the fear, the idea that you'd have to compete amongst a larger playerbase. I'd have feelings of inadequacy too. I'd be playing the game throwing up artificial barriers at players too.

Arena Net has their internal numbers. They can continue to lose money catering to people like you and maybe justify it with "well 95% of people will buy it and not touch the strikes but I think we need the strikes in there as a selling point to those people" or they can face down reality and stop catering to a tiny, whiny group of people with fragile little egos who think more buttons = more skill when the games that are popular prove this to be wrong. An entry barrier is not an indication of skill. It's just an entry barrier.

[Cyninja.2954]

6 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

I get it, sort of. I personally haven't experienced it but I can understand the fear, the idea that you'd have to compete amongst a larger playerbase. I'd have feelings of inadequacy too. I'd be playing the game throwing up artificial barriers at players too.

Arena Net has their internal numbers. They can continue to lose money catering to people like you and maybe justify it with "well 95% of people will buy it and not touch the strikes but I think we need the strikes in there as a selling point to those people" or they can face down reality and stop catering to a tiny, whiny group of people with fragile little egos who think more buttons = more skill when the games that are popular prove this to be wrong. An entry barrier is not an indication of skill. It's just an entry barrier.

You seem far more concerned about how others enjoy this game than yourself.

Is everything alright in your personal "real life" world? All that projecting seems like a cry for help tbh.

[zeyeti.8347]

On 2/4/2024 at 8:27 PM, Leger.3724 said:

That MMOs are designed around DPS checks and there's no changing that until you fundamentally change combat in MMOs. Of course that's not the only problem in MMOs but it's a big one.

Ain't a problem to me , if there wasn't sort of some dps check (and with the powercreep 95% of the content are no more a dps check) , what will be the role of dps then ? do a bit better than healers ... , i mean many encounters require only 2-3 ppl knowing the encounter , the rest can just go ouba bouga dps with healers carrying their a... i mean health . so at least those ppl should have decent dps minimum x4 the healer dps (and that's very forgiving as a healer mainly does 2-4k) or else that means they are a dead weight , ofc you can have some ppl who are beginners and will focus on mechanics , and that's the way i encourage everybody to do as beginner , knowing the fight before doing your perfect rotation.

Just look at the fights who are considered the most difficult by the community : Sabetha (everybody can have a green or red bomb if not a very cautious kiter) , Sloth is about randomness , matthias can have anybody have vomit or puddle , Largos , Desmina , Dhuum .... not counting the cm and the strikes , those fight are designed for everybody to do a mechanic , on the other hand you have Vg who require dps to do one single thing is dodge the blue aoe , Gorseval require nothing for dps to do , that's why for me the most fun fight are Olc and Ko in challenge mode , everybody must be carrefull and Olc is kind of a dps check.

If no dps check let's just run full hscg and do the fight in 45 minutes with nobody having the slightest chance to die and facetanking every mechanic...

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Ain't a problem to me , if there wasn't sort of some dps check (and with the powercreep 95% of the content are no more a dps check) , what will be the role of dps then ?

Make the encounter finish faster. I mean, just look at KO normal. There's no dps check whatsoever, but you really want to do it with people that do decent dps, or it takes forever. And trust me, noone likes that. Even the people getting carried.

[zeyeti.8347]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Make the encounter finish faster. I mean, just look at KO normal. There's no dps check whatsoever, but you really want to do it with people that do decent dps, or it takes forever. And trust me, noone likes that. Even the people getting carried.

Well ppl who want to be carried are not usually big numbers on dps and are doing abysmal damage , so your argument is really contradictory.

It add a bit of spice to have a timer , knowing your reach the last minute and the boss has 5% hp less , why you think all last strike added are such damage sponge , because the powercreep is insane , another real clear example is the 2 last added fractals tend to favorise condi build , while challenge 98 and 97 are all about burst raw power damage, new content vs old content.

And Ko is a bad example of a none dps check , i have sometimes finish this strike in cm with 6-7 ppl cause nobody knows how to avoid getting sniped with the ricochet mechanic during mech sniper phase , and we deal with the minister last 33% who is a real fun clusterf*** with 6 ppl and there was still 2 minutes left on the timer when we finished , so some fights are already not designed as dps checks and some are , good proportions to me.

Edited February 6 by zeyeti.8347

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Even the people getting carried.

The last people who should be upset about an encounter taking longer are the ones who are getting carried. Just saying.

[kharmin.7683]

15 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The last people who should be upset about an encounter taking longer are the ones who are getting carried. Just saying.

These are the same players who are downed at Frozen Maw or Golem Mark II and don't go to the very near waypoint, rather they just lay there and complain about not being rezzed.

Edited February 7 by kharmin.7683

[ArchonWing.9480]

But then again, someone that entitled would probably want to be carried harder than they already are. It's like if you give me a free pizza, and then I complain there's not enough toppings. And where's the extra cheese?

Some tend to be a black hole of take and no give.

The whole not respawning when dead is pretty bad because one also makes it harder to res downed (but not defeated) players. If only the UI would prioritize that first.

Edited February 7 by ArchonWing.9480

[Cuks.8241]

Well gw2 actually does incorporate some platforming and puzzles in raids and fractals. More than most games. And many players hate it. The games I played that did that usually abandoned the concept quite fast because some players just hated it so much. 

I think it's better if dungeon like content stays without it and platforming and racing and puzzles stay separate. 

I wouldn't mind another Chalice of Tears like JP. Yeah it can be a nightmare but on the other hand it's really fun in a group where people help each other with all means available to overcome it. I consider that a JP raid.

[Astralporing.1957]

19 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I wouldn't mind another Chalice of Tears like JP. Yeah it can be a nightmare but on the other hand it's really fun in a group where people help each other with all means available to overcome it. I consider that a JP raid.

Chalice of Tears would not have been an issue if anet didn't try so much to put it into quite a number of collections. That was not fun.

[Sobx.1758]

Nah, chalice in collections was fun. They could make a new one.

[uberkingkong.8041]

Soo-Wong was kinda close to what I am thinking about. Boss fight and some people have to do a jumping puzzle (simple one) with the orb phase.

Think if they added another simple wakeup check phase, like floor is AE damage so you gotta get on skyscale, and you gotta avoid meteors raining down you.

Then another phase on the mini bosses defeating them, after you defeat them someone has to play the music on that island until everyone is done and playing music then you go back. Only 1 of the 10-20 people have to do it. Just some fun interaction.

Obviously I would like a racing phase, but can't really do on floating islands.

Maybe another world boss, a phase where you have to inform your allies the dragons are coming the dragons are coming, if 10 people don't race there quick enough, its very bad for the players.

Edited February 12 by uberkingkong.8041

[kharmin.7683]

All of that sounds best to be in an instanced content like SM or raid, IMO.

[enigmatic.3576]

On 2/4/2024 at 1:52 AM, Loctar.3987 said:

what you write here is of course not true, when I tried raiding a long time ago I was questioned about my experience and since I didn't have LI to prove I was playing I had to pass a dps check. who didn't want to was kicked out, who didn't reach the minimum dps was kicked out. it's a long time ago but when I remember what happened recently when I got the urge to try again I know nothing has changed. The raid community is the worst kind of elitists I've ever known in any game. Luckily I'm not interested in raiding anymore, I got my legit gear through other modes. And just a final note, as too many people complain about wvw and people who won't let anyone in without a voice etc. kitten, I have to say it's a totally sunny community compared to raiders

So people wanting you to pull your weight in groups that they created are elitists?

[Loctar.3987]

19 hours ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

So people wanting you to pull your weight in groups that they created are elitists?

you didn't get it, it doesn't matter. however, if you consider what I described here as my experience to be normal and that forming groups gives someone the right to allow such behaviour, you are exactly the person this is all about.  Finally, to set you straight, such behavior has no business in the game or anywhere else.

[Linken.6345]

2 minutes ago, Loctar.3987 said:

you didn't get it, it doesn't matter. however, if you consider what I described here as my experience to be normal and that forming groups gives someone the right to allow such behaviour, you are exactly the person this is all about.  Finally, to set you straight, such behavior has no business in the game or anywhere else.

Step up get a tag and do your own squads then mate.