Ranger and wvw

[anduriell.6280]

On 3/9/2024 at 9:27 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah I assumed he meant more about how one build rather than weapons and skills. Because it's quite noticable. I've seen rangers facetank pretty much anything with insane sustain. 

Then when I'm on my hunters call downright abusive condi puker even if it's in condi bunker gear... it's like wearing bloody berserkers. 3200+ armor is literally not doing anything, enemies cut through you like it's butter because your traits and skills are all aimed at that bomb. You make up for it with a slight smile when you see enemy hp bars drop like a rock (extra laughs for them approaching on mount) and I think the highest I've seen so far in terms of PvE damage is about 18000 poison tick and 10000 bleed tick on a tower lord, but still.

Well that sustain is coming from celestial set and still very far from sustain you can get  in other cele builds in other classes. Nothing to do with the ranger class i am afraid. Still those ranger builds hit like a wet noodle compared to other classes in similar cele builds. 

You are judging a class because of something external instead of the mechanics. This reminds me to the trapper ranger build wich worked because of the stealth on trapper runes. Now that effect is gone i wonder how many people still uses traps offensively. The issue with the ranger as a hole is the class mechanics which needs to be revisited in almost every single skill. 

The comment from @Dadnir.5038 just sounded like anet devs sure  think about the ranger. I won't go into details but every single point he brought is wrong as the skills, and i feel i am repeating myself a lot latelty with this point, may look decent or even good in the wiki description but everysingle one of them are simply broken in a bad way at some point which makes the skill or weapon clunky at best.   

As i have said many times: Ranger needs somebody who  plays with the class to take over the fixes. Ideally a main so that person understands what is actually going on with it because by reading the wiki descriptions you won't go anywhere. 

Edited March 12 by anduriell.6280

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:43 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I won't comment on everything because I do think this single quote most of the things you easily dismiss for other skills/weapon.

I'm confused--are you basing your argument around Hammer? Do you think hammer is a good defensive weapon? If so, where, and who is using it?

And then...

On 3/9/2024 at 3:43 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

So here we go: "Necromancer's whole defensive system revolve around those few things that you dismiss in this single weaponset and yet the playerbase tend to find them to meaty."

Are you saying hammer is equal to say Reaper? As Reaper is the most potent melee necro spec. 

In general, how does a ranger actually go on the defensive? I will tell you any top ones I've played do it two ways, either stealth, or a bunker build using healing spring like this:

On 3/9/2024 at 1:59 AM, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

Anyways thought I share this with you guys, I know some people have fought me previously in WvW or dueled me or came across me in Spvp, people who have fought me can tell you how much I abuse the crap of healing spring... its also because most of my builds are pure melee which tend to have a lot of leaps and blasts, so Ranged Rangers might not necessarily see the value of it. 

But they are nerfing healing spring (condi cleanse amount, water field duration, etc.), getting rid of the Druid trait that enables builds like this, and getting rid of any stability outside elites and Dolyak.  

So again, we're left with bursts from stealth and also using stealth as escape mechanism.  The problem with that is the hit and run nature--doing damage becomes very difficult against any competent team, as are finding openings.  

Literally fought against Rom this evening and let me tell you, the "defenses" of hammer are nothing compared to what can be pulled off with stealth and Sw/Wh + GS.  Besides Eura, Rom is probably the best ranger player on NA--I would think they would balance around that (or Boyce over on EU).  Fighting against them though, hammer was a strict liability--for the reasons I mention in the quote above, it's too easy to kite and then just get destroyed.   

Anyway, at present they seem to balance around the bunkers which can and do get outplayed at very high levels (via CC); problem is the class mechanics aren't meant to bunker.  We're like ele with a half working pet and no aura spam and slightly more HP if you actually want to kill anything.  It's pretty rough out there.  

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

The comment from @Dadnir.5038 just sounded like anet devs sure  think about the ranger. I won't go into details but every single point he brought is wrong as the skills, and i feel i am repeating myself a lot latelty with this point, may look decent or even good in the wiki description but everysingle one of them are simply broken in a bad way at some point which makes the skill or weapon clunky at best. 

My comment put into light the fact that the devs balance around budgets (something they clearly stated). The sustain budget is built around many active and passive effects that actually healp the character survive a fight. If one want to be unkillable as a ranger in WvW, all the tools are there to use. In fact it's been done by players many time since game release.

• Protection and weakness reduce incoming damage, you can't possibly deny this simple fact.
• Block, strike damage immunity and evade nullify incoming damage, again you can't deny such simple fact.
• Barrier and self-heal are sustain tools that do help you survive and ranger do have those in it's toolkit.
• Stealth is the main survival tool of the thief and yet you seem reject the idea that ranger can actually use it to survive as well.
• Hard CC prevent your foes from hitting you.
• Gap opener prevent a foes from spanking you at melee range.
• The pet can take damage for you either through shout or simply by body blocking.
• ... etc.

15 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I'm confused--are you basing your argument around Hammer? Do you think hammer is a good defensive weapon? If so, where, and who is using it?

Are you saying hammer is equal to say Reaper? As Reaper is the most potent melee necro spec. 

In general, how does a ranger actually go on the defensive? I will tell you any top ones I've played do it two ways, either stealth, or a bunker build using healing spring

I am no basing my argument around Hammer specifically.

Hammer is indeed a good defensive weapon when used with survivability in mind.

I'm not saying that hammer is equal to reaper. I'm saying that necromancer only rely on health points, weakness and protection to survive and that the majority of the playerbase still find them hard to kill. The ranger have access to all those tools and more.

As to "how ranger go on the defensive?", that actually requiert a conscious effort from the player that control the character. Something you seldom find nowaday, which might be why you haven't seen anyone doing it. Long time ago, we called people doing such a thing "skilled players".

Edited March 12 by Dadnir.5038

[Mell.4873]

Atleast my Reaver (Carrion poison build) and Untamed Arrow Cart are not being nerfed and are amazing in WvW. 

[Beddo.1907]

53 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Atleast my Reaver (Carrion poison build) and Untamed Arrow Cart are not being nerfed and are amazing in WvW. 

"Untamed Arrow Cart" and "amazing" are such a weird combo. Amazing at what? Tagging players as you do nothing of worth?

[Kazze.8405]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

My comment put into light the fact that the devs balance around budgets (something they clearly stated). The sustain budget is built around many active and passive effects that actually healp the character survive a fight. If one want to be unkillable as a ranger in WvW, all the tools are there to use. In fact it's been done by players many time since game release.

• Protection and weakness reduce incoming damage, you can't possibly deny this simple fact.
• Block, strike damage immunity and evade nullify incoming damage, again you can't deny such simple fact.
• Barrier and self-heal are sustain tools that do help you survive and ranger do have those in it's toolkit.
• Stealth is the main survival tool of the thief and yet you seem reject the idea that ranger can actually use it to survive as well.
• Hard CC prevent your foes from hitting you.
• Gap opener prevent a foes from spanking you at melee range.
• The pet can take damage for you either through shout or simply by body blocking.
• ... etc.

I am no basing my argument around Hammer specifically.

Hammer is indeed a good defensive weapon when used with survivability in mind.

I'm not saying that hammer is equal to reaper. I'm saying that necromancer only rely on health points, weakness and protection to survive and that the majority of the playerbase still find them hard to kill. The ranger have access to all those tools and more.

As to "how ranger go on the defensive?", that actually requiert a conscious effort from the player that control the character. Something you seldom find nowaday, which might be why you haven't seen anyone doing it. Long time ago, we called people doing such a thing "skilled players".

I understand, you say that the bow ranger is self-sufficient to survive in close combat against the rest of the classes? If you say this you have no idea. Take a revenant with a bow, shoot with a bow while you have hammers, tell me who is approaching you?take a thief with permanent stealth, as they said in another message. Prove what you say and record a video in world vs world of more than an hour without cuts and show that without groups, you fight alone against others, show that the ranger with a bow survives in combat when they attack you in melee. Don't read the wiki or what the skill says, it shows that the ranger with a bow survives.

It's a reality, ranger with a bow needs to get it checked

Edited March 12 by Kazze.8405

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

"Untamed Arrow Cart" and "amazing" are such a weird combo. Amazing at what? Tagging players as you do nothing of worth?

I chain Ambush with Signet of the Hunt to boon strip Zergs so I wouldnt call that tagging. 

[Oahkahmewolf.6210]

6 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

"Untamed Arrow Cart" and "amazing" are such a weird combo. Amazing at what? Tagging players as you do nothing of worth?

 

5 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I chain Ambush with Signet of the Hunt to boon strip Zergs so I wouldnt call that tagging. 

What mellz said, I litterally was about to post this. ^

Just to add Quickdraw on top of that and you can just barrage consistently.

[Mell.4873]

35 minutes ago, Oahkahmewolf.6210 said:

 

What mellz said, I litterally was about to post this. ^

Just to add Quickdraw on top of that and you can just barrage consistently.

Pretty much, seems to the better of the two types of arrow cart. Soulbeast might have more damage output but you are able to chain more things together with Untamed. You also have much better escapes on Untamed with super speed while Soulbeast has a one direction movement merge skill. 

[anduriell.6280]

10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

My comment put into light the fact that the devs balance around budgets (something they clearly stated)

Sure Dadnir I am convinced they use those. But my point is those budgets are usually defined in base of the wiki descriptions which do not match how the skills actually work in combat. 
So using the wiki descriptions to account for those budgets do not work at least for the ranger. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

As to "how ranger go on the defensive?", that actually requiert a conscious effort from the player that control the character. Something you seldom find nowaday, which might be why you haven't seen anyone doing it. Long time ago, we called people doing such a thing "skilled players".

Reaper requires you to have conscious effort? Are we playing the same game here? I'm unsure if you are aware, but the power creep for necro is through the roof atm.  

8 hours ago, Kazze.8405 said:

It's a reality, ranger with a bow needs to get it checked

Agreed, but in this very topic we have arrow cart ranger cope going on--need a united front against that frankly dumb idea the devs created.  

[Mell.4873]

On 3/13/2024 at 10:18 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Agreed, but in this very topic we have arrow cart ranger cope going on--need a united front against that frankly dumb idea the devs created.  

Hey what's wrong with the Arrow Cart build. I have even had a few successful Duels with it since you stealth and reposition like a Deadeye. 

Edited March 14 by Mell.4873

[Widebody.5071]

On 3/12/2024 at 4:00 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Atleast my Reaver (Carrion poison build) and Untamed Arrow Cart are not being nerfed and are amazing in WvW. 

Make them standup and notice you right? 😉

[jahaan.1405]

I'm just extremely disappointed at how slow the longbow is to take down an opponent. Yes I know longbow is not effective in close and I switch to close in weapons like mace and horn. What I don't like is it takes so long to reduce an enemies health with a longbow compared to say a Revenant with a short bow. Stacked guild boons negate the effectiveness of a longbow. I've actually fired at enemies and not reduced their health at all. I thought a longbow was supposed to be a deadly long distance weapon, not in WvW. I haven't had the chance to see how well longbows work in a group of them because teamwork is always lacking on my server. (That's another subject.) I guess I'm making the mistake of wishing longbow was based off the historic longbow. I have seen some good suggestions in this thread and I will try them out.

[Bastrii.3047]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:43 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The point is that ranger is packed full with defensive tools

"Packed full of defensive tools"

Oh no, please, go on. Compare our defensive tools to any other profession. I'm waiting.

[Dadnir.5038]

Just now, Bastrii.3047 said:

"Packed full of defensive tools"

Oh no, please, go on. Compare our defensive tools to any other profession. I'm waiting.

I already did, you just had to read a few more lines.

[CETheLucid.3964]

You either build ranger to be incredibly offensive or incredibly defensive and they'll do well enough in that niche. Building between is just being a free bag for other classes that build one way or the other (or a never ending stalemate until the lesser offense guy screws up; IE you) and do it easier and with more nonsense than ranger ever has.

This is an issue of extremes in general however and what a learned population does. People that (still) play these game modes are veterans of the game, meta maxed, no fun allowed, and the new guy dipping his toe in the water is just going to get shredded. That's how competitive game modes are. Before you can get good, you will be bad.

No one gets a curated competitive experience.

No amount of balancing will fix a skill issue. WvW still has a decent population so maybe the server end will work out well enough to match guilds of similar skill levels since worlds are being done away with. And even within that framework players will be looking for a way to influence and abuse the system to get it to match them with weaker players.

As they did before with the world system. As they will always do. People like winning and hate losing.

Anyway, if you want to 'fix' PvP, just add copious amounts of boon hate to everyone except for guardian and rev. Grab some popcorn. Wait. Forever. Because it won't happen, but it would be hilarious.

'guise this game is so bad now its just boon apply and boon rip i hate it so boring pls bring back boon ball that was the best ;(((('

😏

[Trejgon.9367]

16 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I already did, you just had to read a few more lines.

"few more lines" that did no comparision, just more of broad statements on how you feel the class is like. Nothing to fit criteria of what Bastrii was specifically asking about.

[Dadnir.5038]

59 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

"few more lines" that did no comparision, just more of broad statements on how you feel the class is like. Nothing to fit criteria of what Bastrii was specifically asking about.

Ah! A white knight... The thread is 4 months old mister white knight. In 4 month a lot of thing can change, some profession rise in the meta, other fall and surprisingly ranger both rose for a time and then fell not so long ago. Still something didn't change, the truth of the statement that Bastrii deny.

In this thread, my very first post list a very long list of defensive tools that the ranger have access to. A list so long that it put to shame most other professions. The second post, to which they answer I point out to necromancer. My 3rd post have a comparison between reaper shroud and ranger's Hammer. My 4th post is the post you're answering to. Like I said they just had to read before "taunting", I'll extend this invitation to you as well.

[Trejgon.9367]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Ah! A white knight..

It is always a good sign, when the post starts with name-calling :)

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

In this thread, my very first post list a very long list of defensive tools that the ranger have access to.

I have specifically looked up the post you were referring to, and frankly? no that list is not at all long, and definitely not "very long". And what it also is not, is a comparison to any other class. What it is tho, is a definite response to why claim of Mel that ranger has no defences on skills was false.

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

A list so long that it put to shame most other professions.

Except when it doesn't? Again your list is quite short. And does not even delve into what exact kind of defences are in chunk of the entries.

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

My 3rd post have a comparison between reaper shroud and ranger's Hammer.

Class mechanic vs single weapon, is no class to class comparision.

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Like I said they just had to read before "taunting", I'll extend this invitation to you as well.

Your "invitation" would be more accurate if your statement invited to read couple more posts, not couple more sentences, and even then it would fall short to respond to inquiry for comparison, in direct response to your claim that ranger is "packed full of defences". Considering your later claims that somehow the amount of defensive tools ranger has is supposed to shame most of other classes, a request for direct fair class-to-class comparison (not just arbitrary class mechanic vs arbitrary weapon choice) to support your claims seems to be warranted, and hardly a "taunt".

That is pretty much all I had to say on this subject, if you decide to continue behaving like this to avoid propping up your claims properly, do not expect me to answer that.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I had to lol that this thread got necro'd (pun semi-intended).

On this page we have some ranger players celebrating arrow cart ranger didn't get nerfed (but buffed!), and also a debate about how many defenses ranger has from a presumed necro main.  

Protip, again, if ranger had a lot of defenses, arrow cart ranger wouldn't be celebrated as if it's a good thing.  Arrow cart ranger is only a thing as rangers defenses are, kiting.  Yes, ranger is really good at kiting.  So are thief, and willbender.  What's missing? Oh yeah, the infinite initiative gain and stealth access on good thief builds, and the perma boons and 'oops' buttons cele WB currently has.

But, back to necro.  Like, bro...fear alone is doing 3-4k damage in WvW rn, not including what chilled to the bone can do to you if they get close and if not, the pew pew spam from pistol.  With a literal second life bar to play around.  Oh, and the incoming sword buffs because what necro needs is more mobility.  Seriously, I'm having reaper's aggressively attempt to chase me down like willbenders now, something is very wrong.  

Edited June 3 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Sansar.1302]

I dont play guild wars 2  any more as ranger (the class i used to play)  is the weakest class now in the mode i used to play ( wvw )

[Bastrii.3047]

Alright, time to tear into you, since you're going to be this way.

The defensives of ranger are abysmal outright; to put this into perspective, let's note every single potential defensive ability that a Ranger has. We're assuming the player is playing a Core Ranger build, and thus does not have access to Elite Specializations. To note: Anything that inflicts a condition that can potentially prevent an attack does NOT count as a defensive tool; CCs are not reliable as a way to prevent or reduce damage, as the enemy player can have sources of Stability readily available to counter this, a stun-break, or the attack can outright fail to land due to Blindness. Because of this, defensives must have one or more of the following conditionals:

1. Applies damage negation through boons.

2. Not require the target to be afflicted with a conditional effect (any form of control of condition that hinders the enemy's ability to deal damage)

3. Avoid, Absorb, or Block an attack outright, preventing all damage.

Barrier and Reaper Shroud, for example, counts as an Absorb - as this negates all damage to the player health bar (prevents down state). Aegis counts as a block. Dodging/evading is avoidance. Protection and Resolution counts as Negation.

Because of this, let's break down exactly what Defensives Ranger has.

1. Signet of Renewal - Condi Cleanse, Resistance, Resolution. 35 second cooldown. Requires your pet to be within range to activate. Requires your pet to be alive to activate.

2. Signet of Stone - Absorbs all Power Damage from attacks for 3 seconds. 40 second cooldown.

3. Lightning Reflexes - Evades for 0.75 seconds, breaks stun, and removes Immobilized. 24 Second Cooldown. Additionally grants vigor.

4. Stone Spirit - Grants 1 Aegis and 4 stacks of 1 second of Protection. 30 second cooldown. Additionally cripples and Weakens, but these can be negated.

5. Water Spirit - Possibly the only "good" Condi Cleanse that isn't Healing Spring. Gives Resistance for 4 seconds, 4 stacks of Resolution for 1.5 seconds, Area of Effect wherever you place it, 0.25 second activation time, and pulses Condi Cleanse on Slam removing 3 Condis. 30 Second Cooldown.

6. Protect Me! - Grants a minimum of around 4k Barrier that scales off of Healing Power and breaks stun in a Radius around you. Grants Protection for 4 seconds. 30 Second cooldown.

7. Guard! - Reduces damage taken by 33% for 6 seconds. Damage is instead taken by your Pet. Will effectively kill your Pet. Requires your Pet to be alive (unlikely to last in WvW). Requires your Pet to be in Range. Additionally soaks damage from allies, further killing your Pet even faster. 30 Second Cooldown (it's actually 60 seconds because your Pet is now dead).

Weapon Skills:

8. Whirling Defense: Grants Resolution for 4 Seconds. Renders you immobile. Reflects projectiles. 25 Second Cooldown. Deals significant damage, but requires the target to be thoroughly locked in place to inflict this damage. Requires offhand Axe, a Condi weapon.

9. Stalker's Strike: 1.25 Second evade. Deals moderate poison damage, more so if target is crippled (if it even lands). 10 Second Cooldown. Requires offhand dagger, a Condi weapon.

10. Counterattack: Blocks all attacks for 3 seconds. This is the only block Ranger has to prevent damage outright, both condi and power. Greatsword only (a 2h Power weapon). 15 Second Cooldown. Additionally gives you a very short range kick if you block an attack, that can knockback and evade for 0.75 seconds.

11. Swoop: Technically has an evade on the "swing" animation for 0.5 seconds. 12 second cooldown. Mobility.

12. Quick Shot: Evade backwards for 0.5 seconds, gain Swiftness, 8 second cooldown. Requires Shortbow.

So let's review!
We have: A weak condi cleanse that is conditional on your Pet being in range and alive to activate, a Signet that blocks all power damage for 3 seconds (thank God Power Damage is super meta, right guys?), An evade that gives you no backup stability or anything to prevent being instantly rooted again, two Spirits with decent effects but long cooldowns and boon reliant (thus can be stripped), the one good Stun Break which grants protection (one of the VERY FEW sources of protection), a suicide your Pet button, and on weapons we have off-hand Axe, off-hand Dagger, Shortbow, and Greatsword.

Some of the biggest problems are that Condi Rangers have 0 Blocks without taking Greatsword, Power builds had a lot of choice, the overall toolkit for defensives is super weak or conditional, some are outright useless, others are good in theory but horrible in practice.

Now, tell me. Is there any core class in the game that has it worse than Ranger when it comes to defensives? Be honest, and ask yourself this, because I'm going to give you the answer.

No. Even if we turn to Pets, and look at Pet abilities, these are still conditional on your Pet being alive. To top this off, they require your Pet to be in Range. A taunt will do nothing to AoE abilities that strike multiple targets. Condis can be handwaved on any cleanse. Ranger has no ability to bunker at all, while several of the meta classes have either soft bunker (massive evasion, reduction, or outright removing themselves from combat) tactics or hard bunker tactics (absorption, negation, tactics which involve soaking damage or preventing it outright).

Ranger has none of these abilities when stressed, unless if they have their one block available - but this can be countered with unblockable attacks (nor does this prevent condis from ticking away at them). Rangers can not reliably generate defensives. Rangers can not reliably drop combat as easily as several other classes, like Thief or Necromancer. Rangers can not reliably remove conditions anymore (this was recently nerfed) without taking extremely valuable Utility slots. Rangers can not use half of their kit because it relies on their Pets, which dies often and fast in PvP situations, and when their pet is alive, it can easily be out of range entirely.

Insufficient research is often attributed to ignorance. And your inability to provide reasonable doubt or evidence that "Ranger's defensives are strong" indicates a weak understanding of the core issue. If a Ranger's only recourse to a threat is to run from the threat, and not engage with the threat, then they are not viable to play.

Understanding the niche of every weapon, you see a trend. Ranger weapons can put out damage numbers - but these numbers are simply similar to other high ranking DPS. Ranger weapons can have a small defensive utility - but these defensive utilities are very weak or easily counterable. Ranger Utilities can provide defensive power, but they are highly conditional, or simply do not achieve the purpose of a defensive to a broader extent.

To be a good "defensive", a skill or utility must be:

1. Reliable

2. Easily accessible

3. Not readily countered by common tactics

4. Easy to use.

Most of these abilities, just in the core tree, do NOT meet most of this criteria. Protect Me and Counter Attack are perhaps the only skills that can meet at least 3 of these. They're both reliable and easy to use, but Protect Me is countered by several strategies (stacking CC, roots, slows), and Counter Attack is not easily accessible because it requires a weapon slot to use.

To summarize: Ranger's only defensive tactic is to run away because their kit is bad.

[Zyreva.1078]

So much nonsense ...

1. It doesn't make much sense to talk about core only, because the game is very clearly balanced arround elite specs and viable core builds aren't really a thing for any class and in any game mode (if a "meta" core build pops up from time to time it's basically just that one exception that confirms the rule).

2. Just because some defenses won't work 100% of the time and in every single situation imaginable (which applies to pretty much all of them btw) doesn't mean they are weak. Stealth for example can be countered, yet is still a very strong defensive mechanic - and ranger has access to it, unlike some other classes. Blocks and evades on ranger are just as good as on any other class. Cleanses and defensive boons are plenty aviable, so is decent healing, even on core.

What ranger lacks is instant teleport, instant stealth and true invuln. But similar applies to most classes (in fact only one has all 3, and that one has other weaknesses). Ranger might not be the most elusive class and not the biggest meatshield, but it has access to a strong combination of both active defense and passive sustain that is hard to shut down completely. If you can't make good use of those defenses because they are not "easy enough to use" that's on you, but doesn't mean the class has bad defense.

[frazazel.7501]

I think that ranger utility skills in general are fairly weak, compared to what other classes get. And most of our traits that interact with our skills do not make them significantly stronger.