Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

[Lumberjack.8546]

@Rhyse.8179 said:So much this. Conditions are not a choice, or a move to be countered by a particular defense. They are dropped, en masse, by every skill a condition build has. People complain about condition spam, but there's no other choice for a condi weapon user. Some autoattack chains drop 2 or 3 different conditions, even without player input. How do you build balance/countermove system around that? Either you drop enough conditions to be effective, or all your damage is negated by a universal counter (condi cleanse). The middle ground is razor thin.

Condi builds are fundamentally the same as power builds - you attack until the target dies. It's a part of the class design. I'm not sure how they can fix it without a major overhaul. The only idea I have is to split every cleanse into dps/control cleanses, instead of every cleanse being a universal counter to everything.

I don't think condi builds are going to be mitigated to that extent, because if you remember Irenio mentioning that they are 'Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay'. Nothing in his post mentions anything about dropping the amount of condition stacks or condition types, merely pacing them out and putting condition damage at a more even pace in accordance to the damage over time philosophy.

To reiterate, right now we have:

• Condition builds that output too many stacks of condi in a near instantaneous/instant amount of time. Exp: (Scourge's Profession skills/Shades, Mirage) Now they're pacing them out to avoid them reaching their full potiential in a instant, and even increasing their damage/amount of stacks to reward prolonged exposure to damage sources.

• Condition damage can be divided into parts, the activation (think, actually hitting the target) and the ticking condis tha arise from the condi. Right now imho we have too many condition setting spells that have too much impact while being hard to avoid/dodge as a large number of them don't have a good telegraph, elongating the damage allows more leeway for classes with less condi clears to clear it without it being too much of a death sentence. (Revs)

[Draygorn.7012]

I am grateful that Anet is listening to us. I have mixed feelings about this upcoming update though. I know condi builds were kinda trivializing power builds in most cases, but I hope it doesn't tip the balance too much. I'm worried that condi builds may take a hit to their survivability as a result of taking longer to kill enemies. Classes such as Renegade already have some survivability issues with a condi setup and I'm sure the same could be said for other classes too. I hope this is taken into account :)

[Lyrebon.9715]

@Jinks.2057 said:Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

Or just split the two like other MMOs.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Draygorn.7012 said:I am grateful that Anet is listening to us. I have mixed feelings about this upcoming update though. I know condi builds were kinda trivializing power builds in most cases, but I hope it doesn't tip the balance too much. I'm worried that condi builds may take a hit to their survivability as a result of taking longer to kill enemies. Classes such as Renegade already have some survivability issues with a condi setup and I'm sure the same could be said for other classes too. I hope this is taken into account :)

i dont feel this will change much the condi gameplay. probably will take 2 or 3 ticks more to target to die, on WvW we can instant basicly a down a zerg, light and heavies, doubt ANet fully realizes and understands how awfull their skill deisgn is and how easy is to (over-)stack since everything is the same condi stack and boon stack, with "poor" diferent mechanics between classes.

But it might be a good start tho... it is late...and some builds will probably continue to just use condi to easilly kills targets and overwhelm condi cleanses at ease.

Ive achieved 12k burn ticks on spvp guardian core, and ive seen some FB burn ticks arround 18k-20k... and some classes are far easy to reach fast that condi momentum and continue..

[K THEN.5162]

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

We've heard your frustrations with the burstiness of conditions invalidating power builds across game modes (though for differing reasons in each). Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage once it has ramped up.

This small update has primary two foci:

• Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage.

[enigma.4873]

Interested to see how this will work out in the long run. As a reaper main, I recently went back to power and am curious about returning to condi.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Accelerator.3598 said:Please for the love of god, split this "Balance Update" into PvE and PvP. I know the condi burst is just ridiculous in PvP but don't balance PvE around PvP again. For the part that's targeted at PvE content, the main issue here is not condi builds being overwhelmingly strong, but power builds being underwhelmingly weak and this should be where you start to balance, by adding power to weak builds and not by nerfing the in comparison stronger builds to the ground.

^This. I managed to get over you guys nerfing the heck out of my favorite PoF build (Mirage, axe clone ambush). Now you're telling me you're going to kill my burst with it, too? Seriously, what is your next trick going to be?

[censord.8679]

thoughts on condi cleanse priority? highest damaging tick gets cleansed first

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

So, seriously, how many months are mirage players going to have to wait after you completely destroy whatever was left of this spec? Ambush is a pathetic joke. Clones still don't deal power damage on AA. But now we can't burst with condi either? What are the strong points of this spec exactly?

[Carighan.6758]

I like the idea of conditions lasting longer but being less bursty.

Frankly, I'd go even further, in your example the burning stack should be single, 16-20 seconds. Even more damage total, even longer, even less burst potential.

Differentiates the game further between the "I bring the damage output" condi specs and the "I kill stuff" power specs.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

Just wondering.So um... is my Scourge screwed in this?My head say no, but I'm a condi facemelting build and really liking it. I've always been a condi Necro as there's nothing good in power in Necro for me. (I don't play Reaper. Never played Reaper. Never liked Reaper).

[Crossaber.8934]

I wish the patch actually works...Right now condition skill are doing multiple things at once, damage, soft control, hard control etc...If a skill is going to add 1+ types of conditions, each damage type condition should be 1 stack.Well we will see hows the patch roll out.

[Miles Smiles.8951]

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

• e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

No no no, stop butchering revenant, for the love of god! It's even a minor so you cannot deselect it. It's similar to ranger's Opening Strike and this mechanic never was healthy unless you pick Remorseless grandmaster trait. Players have been asking to rework it for so long, and now you add more of this mechanic to the game.

[ori.5829]

Then condi users dont have the need for expertise stats anymore and go full dire build again. Is that what you want?

[Anonymouse.4760]

Please be careful with how you balance spvp, the competitive meta right now is not overwhelmingly condition or power based. Look at what rank 55 won with in the UGO ( holosmith , thief , mirage scourge ) thats two condi and two power classes. Nerfing condition in spvp will lead to a bunker meta. I don't expect pvp to be balanced around the top players anymore since the scene is tiny but do keep in mind that things like druid or firebrand will be exponentially harder to kill without condi in the meta
Thnx for reading

[Miles Smiles.8951]

@Rengaru.4730 said:Of course I don't know the full balance changes so I could be mistaken, but wouldn't the proposed chage to Mutilate Defenses destroy the synergy it already has with the other Devastation traits (namely Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning) especially in AoE situations?

ofc it would, now you probably will have to run sigil of fallibility in spvp for reliable vuln upkeep.

[Cynz.9437]

Will there be any change to EM from mirage? Seeing reasoning given thieves from dev team for UC change i don't understand how EM is left untouched.

[Miles Smiles.8951]

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

• Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.
  • i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.
  • e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.So now you can facetank more? I think if you eat a condi bomb or two then it's fair you go take a seat for a while. Especially if it's a burn guard with mentioned Purging Flames. I really think it's an incorrect approach to balancing condi specs, which are currently represented by Scourge and Mirage, not burn guardians.

You say you wanna "create more opportunities for counterplay" so give it some counterplay (e.g. rework insta casted corrupts with no tells) instead of creating an opportunity to tank more.

[Sereath.1428]

Yeah now that I think about it... so far the "new" Mutilate Defenses trait is a straight nerf to Revenant......... Having to blow the elite skill just to get 5 vulnerability stacks.That's not an option for Jalis nor Shiro.It's even a bigger nerf to Hammer and Staff (which already struggle with DPS), since they wont be able to apply "reliable" vulnerability anymore. So no more Targeted Destruction (bonus damage on targets with vulnerability ) or Focused Siphoning (siphon life on targets with vulnerability).

So please, I beg you to reconsider your decisions.

[katniss.6735]

A bush in California does more fire damage than Staff Elementalist. Please help.

[TerminalMontage.5693]

I like the sound of this.

[kiranslee.4829]

How about that change to 100b on war, maybe transform it into something , useful ? Would be nice to check war GS and make it not be just additional dodge, just sayin. Not like we ask for this for years now :).

PS.I really hope tthis becomes awesome condi nerf , but u have to sell your hot/pof stats , right :) ?

[Tiborb.1453]

Is this PvE/WvWvW only?

[Seffen.2875]

@ Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

This small update has primary two foci:

• Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.
  • i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.
  • e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

See you in the lands!

Till then, when i acknowledge my GF i will think of you.

If this is actually working, i will proceed after this is online.

Kudos for telling us earlier this time. Also is Purging Flames a really weird example.

[Coronit.9432]

"Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits"

While the idea is good, especially the example of your skillchange is bad. First, changing skill to activate when engaging combat isn´t good. You already did that mistake with warriors "Brave Stride", making it a skill so utterly useless its unbelievable. In competitive enviroment I have NEVER seen anyone using it. Its just bad. It could maybe be usefull for running around in open pve. But even there its not great because mobs often either have non CC in the case of trashmobs, or a shit-ton of it.Making it to refresh somehow in a fight is better, but still. you either mostly don´t use the elite (mallyx) or in special cases (shiro) where you are sure it will land.And why reducing the amount of vulnerabilty und rev when there is much more important stuff to consider (btw the vulnerability is important for the 7% bonus. in a raid this is ez to mantain, in a 1vs1 in pvp it just gets more difficult. The access to it is limited to sword AA in most cases). For example how easy it is to mantain perma weakness as a nec when investing into one trait alone? Which gets us to the general problem. It is now to easy for condi speccs to access ALL conditions for extreme uptimes. Its far more difficult to mantein poison stacks on an enemy as a power thief for example, but ridiculously easy for condi thief. Its better in pvp because the condition duration for all condis is harder to achieve (thanks pvp team). But in a world where trailblazer exists, its far to easy. Heavy access to conditions like immob, chill, cripple, weakness etc were meant to make condition builds more able to kite enemies while they are letting conditions finish him off. There were even plays involved that you needed them as cover-conditions so the important ones are more difficult to cleanse. But now its to easy to achieve that. You don´t have to think what you do with your conditions, you just throw them in the face as much as possible.

Tbh, I think it would be necessary to nerf all the 4stats in the amount of numbers to bring them more in line with 3 stats variant. Many wouldn´t like that, but especially minstrel, trailblazer (dire is weaker but still strong), viper (far better than sinister, making it obsolete) and even stuff like marauder (better damage/sustain ratio than berserker) are simply better than the 3stats variant. Make it a harder choice what stats to take.