Vindicator has far too much evades, blocks, defense to be doing the amount of damage, and aoe damage that it does, what's the philospophy?

[Saiyan.1704]

Sheesh, 7 pages 8 pages Let's be honest with ourselves though. I rather have a Vindi meta instead of a Herald meta.

Edited May 2 by Saiyan.1704

[hanabal lecter.2495]

On 4/21/2024 at 7:28 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

???? link the time stamps where it "dominates" because When I watch semi/finals I don't see them even "dominating" in this video

For real lmaoo all i see is sbreakers and chronos

[Flowki.7194]

All I can say is, when I duel a decent mace untamed, I struggle to see a way of beating it other than a spec that can out kite it, or with heavier sustain (druid). It is beyond me how it can run zerker with nion support level sustain, and high protection/stab/CC access. I don't get that feeling fighting vindi, I know when and where I kitten up. Last time I got that feeling of "nothing you can do in melee range" was against staff warrior, blade had that feel too, the "my stats trump yours, so leave your skill at the door" kind of specs.

 

Only saving grace is the untamed spec does not seem accessible to the avarage player.. thankfully.

 

Edited May 3 by Flowki.7194

[Unknown.6851]

On 5/1/2024 at 6:10 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

When your class is simple people think they can simply balance you, despite the nuance of simple mechanics being hard to make unpredictable.

When your class is complex the opposite happens, even if the resulting game loop that is causing problems/concern is simple. 

It's really funny. 

Dodging shouldn't do eviscerate level damage if your kit has several hard hitting, mandatory dodge skills already.  We went over this with vault thief and reckless dodge warrior. 

Hammer sucks outside of backlining. Vindi has found a way of mitigating the fact it can't do well up close to opponents by punishing anyone that gets close to it with 4.5 k evade chains.

If hammer is a backline weapon, see to it that it adheres to its role like other class weapons have been  made to do so when unexpected class synergies come up.  Its not like rev is starved for choice when it comes to usable damage options.

But that's just my opinion. 

Very solid opinion. Simply nerf the dodge damage, or put exhaustion as a debuff that can be triggered without too much complexity. They did it to classic thief and mes, they can do it to new rev. 

 

Endurance regen on the build is absolutely the problem, paired with a leap that gives you more I frames in the form of hammer 4. If you legend swap that's 25% regen, if you run relic of endurance that's another 25% on heal. Imma be honest, I can deal with tanks and bruisers because seeing damage being applied is nice. Iframes destroy the fun no matter what class. Had a similar problem with weaver on its release, and dag/dag thief about a year after hot. Iframe rev is just the newest iteration in iframe balance. 

[Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259]

Since mirage has two dodges again, maybe it is time to pass the one dodge man torch to vindicator given the unanimous complaint over the said mechanic.

Tldr: take away vindicator's second dodge. 

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 said:

Since mirage has two dodges again, maybe it is time to pass the one dodge man torch to vindicator given the unanimous complaint over the said mechanic.

Tldr: take away vindicator's second dodge. 

No 2 dodges is a lot more fluent playstyle then 1... 

It stays.

This is by far solving a problem, that's called creating a problem with another problem. Not even a plaster on a problem, so no on that.

[Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259]

16 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

No 2 dodges is a lot more fluent playstyle then 1... 

It stays.

This is by far solving a problem, that's called creating a problem with another problem. Not even a plaster on a problem, so no on that.

okay fine, exhaustion on dodge too

[arazoth.7290]

35 minutes ago, Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 said:

okay fine, exhaustion on dodge too

Yea it seems you haven't really tried the spec or not at all and then coming on here with a "solution", from back then compared to now

Edited May 19 by arazoth.7290

[Myror.7521]

@Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 the problem is not the evades per se. Its the dodges+ its dmg in comb making it OP when well Played xp. So nerf the dodges dmg and maybe 1 or 2 dmging skills of Hammer or Greatsword and you will have it kinda balanced ^~^

Edited May 19 by Myror.7521

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259 the problem is not the evades per se. Its the dodges+ its dmg in comb making it OP when well Played xp. So nerf the dodges dmg and maybe 1 or 2 dmging skills of Hammer or Greatsword and you will have it kinda balanced ^~^

Vindi elite spec part:

Vindi damage evade with that dps trait for it 33% less damage on the instant damage part.

And the outgoing damage by that trait => 15% to 10% outgoing. 

This way it's overall tuned and not making the trait useless or vindi at all for other power weapons.

Hammer part:

The only thing that on this could be some lower damage is Field of the mist, 4th skill on it.

33% less damage on it is fine.

Since the part why it used mostly is the frontal projectile denial/2second aegis duration after cast.

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

Didn't know they were so many vindicator players......waaaaait a minute!....aren't you lot spellbreakers?.....no?!....odd, wonder what you will be in a couple of months

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I was always wondering what's the philosophy behind dueling mesmer specs. They chain evades, then stealth and just oneshot you with either power or conditions after that.

Somebody got comfortable with revenant being +1 herald slave.

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

I was always wondering what's the philosophy behind dueling mesmer specs. They chain evades, then stealth and just oneshot you with either power or conditions after that.

Somebody got comfortable with revenant being +1 herald slave.

How it probably will go, others get buffs, this gets nerfed, because of the nerfs you will see "many" revenants in pvp.

Ohwell maybeeeee Renegade gets some more attention, that it becomes good 😂 in June (big if).

Few guys in top duo 2 vindi and farm in arena for snowballing others, there are also only a few in top 10 with this still.

To be fair I haven't had a single time till now that I found, wow they really do all the work for winning. They mostly just out rotate because better players. And at the same team ignores them too much, letting them go entire match free mode dummy dps. 

Edited May 20 by arazoth.7290

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The philosophy was rev needed a gimmick class. Give it a normal dodge and suddenly its actually somewhat balanced.

[Flowki.7194]

Dodge damage should be removed, but I just find it hilarious people complain about it +evades, in spite of a meta ram packed with block-invuln while attack, and easy access to cc/daze/stab spam. Take for example, if vindi complaints have 8 pages, untamed should be at 20+ by now. From the casual maces, free vigor? refresh of all abilitys for easy stab-barrier-cc and +dmg/healing (thats 2 seperate traits for vindi, and an elite skill for cata, in 1 weapon set), to stab stacked relentless, which is before pets that have CC/utility to rival entire specs, nothing to be said? But vindi dodge damge 😜 What a joke of a playerbase.

 

 

 

Edited May 20 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 i realy think the reason why vindi is more favorite broke called class over Ranger is simply..... cause you can actually hit the ranger while the vindi stays in dodge mode for idk how manys minuted while doing omega hard dmg at the same time ^^. So the diff is you can at least somehow counter play a ranger while on vindi its more kind of a thing between luck and class knowledge xD

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 i realy think the reason why vindi is more favorite broke called class over Ranger is simply..... cause you can actually hit the ranger while the vindi stays in dodge mode for idk how manys minuted while doing omega hard dmg at the same time ^^. So the diff is you can at least somehow counter play a ranger while on vindi its more kind of a thing between luck and class knowledge xD

The vindi can be outplayed and punished heavily with CC, its a very clear difference.  It is very difficult to outplay untamed, its stab uptime is huge, and and its CC uptime is huge. If you do CC it, the untamed then has enough mace barrier/healing to soak up the damage you did while it decided what stunbreak to use, superspeed or barrier break? Why not both, still have one left. Then it has decent projectile denial. Its just lucky that resistance uptime is so high, or else you'd be stuned, dazed, or pet immobed.

 

It is a massively bloated, and moderately easier to play virsion of hammer cata, its about the only way to put it. You cannot mechanically outplay it if the player is decent, it seems like all you can do is overwhelm it with stab/immune-attack burst. That is not enough counter.

Edited May 20 by Flowki.7194

[Buran.3796]

4 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

The philosophy was rev needed a gimmick class. 

   Which is the Renegade. A spec originally released with the breakstun in the heal skill and and AoE grounded atacks which couldn't be placed in most of the floor of PvP arenas. Took almost two years to fix that and when was done the nerfs in general damage across all professions turned it into a opportunistic tank. Which was nerfed and ditched since. 

   You have also Herald, which was a burst spec with bad condition clenases; conveniently nerfed before SotO and made outdated by Vindi, which has better mobility and cleanses...

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

22 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Didn't know they were so many vindicator players......waaaaait a minute!....aren't you lot spellbreakers?.....no?!....odd, wonder what you will be in a couple of months

Prescient. 

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 i realy think the reason why vindi is more favorite broke called class over Ranger is simply..... cause you can actually hit the ranger while the vindi stays in dodge mode for idk how manys minuted while doing omega hard dmg at the same time ^^. So the diff is you can at least somehow counter play a ranger while on vindi its more kind of a thing between luck and class knowledge xD

Okeee on this again about evading part. If they use their energy for defensive, which is dodging, they have a lot less energy for offense. 

And timed attacks when they're not in dodge ofcourse.

 

Whenever I see a vindicator I am like okay, take out this threat fast and we can go on. Untamed on the other hand, you can hit it but I have seen people soak full damage procs of relic of the sunless while I bursted them. That aint right imo either for ignoring damage in their face and surviving/pushing me back on defense. They also do surprisingly for that amount of passive soaking without dodges like revenant, quite a good amount of damage.

 

Give me a vindi anyday on whatever class I play then that untamed

 

[Myror.7521]

@arazoth.7290 i mean i personaly have by far more Problems against a decent vindicator than i have against a decent ranger ^^ simply cause of the said reason xp

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 i mean i personaly have by far more Problems against a decent vindicator than i have against a decent ranger ^^ simply cause of the said reason xp

Well my offer is still open for in private arena to do some practice and to show/test some things against such builds 😁. You have vindicator yes, but that's not really the same experience.

[arazoth.7290]

Revenant

• Coalescence of Ruin: Reduced the damage coefficient from 1.75 to 1.45 in PvP only. Increased the height of the damage hit box.
• Field of the Mists: Reduced the damage coefficient from 1.35 to 1.1 in PvP and WvW.
• Urn of Saint Viktor: Reduced the strike damage reduction and the condition damage reduction from 50% to 33% in PvP only. Increased the cooldown from 2 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only.

 

GOOD JOB ON ALL HATERS FOR GIVING IT AN OVERNERF 👏👏👏. You may all be proud on yourself, you now don't need to learn making builds that counter it and learning how to counter anymore.

 

[Sereath.1428]

Lmao deleted Urn just like that. You dared to play full melee or shortbow vindi? Well, tough luck for you as well.
Definitely balancing the whole spec around Death Drop being everything. Typical ANET moment. I was 80% certain they would never address Death Drop. Sad to be right. And people are going to continue to get annoyed by that gameplay forever.
Goodbye, have fun with your 23 player game mode.

Edited May 21 by Sereath.1428

[Flowki.7194]

12 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@arazoth.7290 i mean i personaly have by far more Problems against a decent vindicator than i have against a decent ranger ^^ simply cause of the said reason xp

Thats does not suprise me given warrior mechanics. I mean this in no offensive way, but warrior has some forgiving dueling mechanics, and untamed is a melee range spec. That is tilting your view of vindi, which can have more control over range, and evades which means you actually have to time attacks. In other words, the mechanics of warrior can give you an easier time vs untamed, but it will take more knowledge of vindi mechanics to vs it, which your mechanics cannot entirely save you from. This is the same downside I have playing slower ramp up damage with condi. I can avoid many power jumps, while they eat my cc/dmg application (cleanse), then I can die in 1 stun duration despite that. It is annoying true, but on the other hand I bring far more utility to group fights than the mechanically selfish nature of power roam specs. Back to hammer vindi, it offers nothing to a group fight other than dps, and if people focus it, it dies, or its damage screaches to a hault (as long as popele are not piled on 1 spot).

 

I honestly cannot think of a spec that should be focused more than a vindi, almost everything else from meta/good, can sustain some pressure. It is always the weakest link in a group fight from the current specs I often fight. The issue really, is what the other enemy specs are doing to fk with your ability to kill the vindi. Ive killed a vindi in a lost group fight 3v1, and ive killed multiple vindis in 1v2. Also, when I target them in group fight, if people follow up, it dies in under 10 seconds, or has to leave. They simply cannot afford mistakes in mitigation, and withought front loaded stab-block cover to do its dmg, it is limited in damage application, as I keep saying, it can be CC'd at any point between evades. Obviously I realise supports may put a spanner in that, but supports make any spec more difficult to kill, obviously, so you can't just apply that to vindi.

 

Edited May 21 by Flowki.7194