XenesisII.1540 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Shouldn't anet be making "content" "harder"/"challenging" for organized groups? Not easier? I heard we had a dev say a zerg farming 5 people was fun for both sides.... how? how could they possibly come up with that reasoning. Don't pve players get bored of beating same easy raids over and over again? Doesn't the same idea apply for organized fight groups in wvw? Why do most of these guilds or groups fall apart in mere months? barely getting into years of service? They got numbers. They got voice. They're organized. They run meta classes. The game has been nerfed down to cater to them. Don't those organized groups get bored when their content gets too easy for them? when people run away from them? Shouldn't we try to find ways to get more players to face those groups? instead of chasing them out of wvw? They always proclaim they're in it for "competition", but anet seem to continue making content easier for them, making it less challenging..... Leading down the path of chase away the small groups, the roamers, making it easier to get boring for the big groups... eventually turning wvw into an actual ghost town. Pretty laughable to see a squad of 50 trying to farm 5-10 people. You may think you're producing content, but you're also killing it... I just don't get it..... 🤷♂️ 11 6 3 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 32 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said: Shouldn't anet be making "content" "harder"/"challenging" for organized groups? Not easier? I heard we had a dev say a zerg farming 5 people was fun for both sides.... how? how could they possibly come up with that reasoning. Don't pve players get bored of beating same easy raids over and over again? Doesn't the same idea apply for organized fight groups in wvw? Why do most of these guilds or groups fall apart in mere months? barely getting into years of service? They got numbers. They got voice. They're organized. They run meta classes. The game has been nerfed down to cater to them. Don't those organized groups get bored when their content gets too easy for them? when people run away from them? Shouldn't we try to find ways to get more players to face those groups? instead of chasing them out of wvw? They always proclaim they're in it for "competition", but anet seem to continue making content easier for them, making it less challenging..... Leading down the path of chase away the small groups, the roamers, making it easier to get boring for the big groups... eventually turning wvw into an actual ghost town. Pretty laughable to see a squad of 50 trying to farm 5-10 people. You may think you're producing content, but you're also killing it... I just don't get it..... 🤷♂️ Good points in bold. The carrot on a stick is a little different from PvE to WvW. When I'd raid in other games it was something like World First - then fastest run - then routine clears for more baseline groups - then speed up those routine clears to gear everyone up. I agree, gaining total dominance of an encounter should require the tightest ship and the degree of difficulty to recover should require conditioning more than just filling squad slots. A lot of squads do run a tight ship and work to improve team movement and all that, but what gets thrown at them in no way compares to say a Raid boss who can wreck everyone (unless they get a mirror of themselves thrown at them or savvy pugs can get like 30 min to an hour to dismantle) for weeks to months and still remain challenging over time during mishaps or laziness. I get it that squads should be encouraged to squad up like in raids and stuff, but the longer adds snowball and response has more time to filter in, it should press them more instead of letting them farm. The blob itself is fun to fight but not against the clock and not when defenses keep getting jankier. Edited May 2 by kash.9213 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cael.3960 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Difficulty is a reflection of what your groups priority is. Is it player kills or PPT? Is it engaging in fights against other large groups or some form of community-wide achievement hunting? Is it a training run for new commanders? Is it about getting the warclaw for new members who just got the expansion? How 'big' is 'big' for your group? How sweaty are your players and what content is challenging enough to satisfy them? Are you testing a new group build or bringing members up to speed with an existing one? Once again you're making assumptions about group play from the perspective of someone who doesn't play it, doesn't understand it, and ultimately doesn't want it in the game at all. Why ask questions when all you really want to do is whinge about content that's too tough for your self-made handicap? Honestly, I don't get it. If you hate the game mode so much why not play Helldivers or something instead? 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said: Don't pve players get bored of beating same easy raids over and over again? A lot don't because they only care about rewards. In fact, there's often a lot of pushback anytime they release anything remotely challenging, like in EoD. And a lot of CMs get played only once so they can get the achievements and never come back again because it's not suitable for farming. The game's reward systems also don't really reward anyone for challenging themselves, mainly because people start whining about some things being exclusive or elitism or some kitten. A lot of MMOs just run on easy mode farming. Even when stuff is harder, people try to find ways to put it on farm mode. But with that premise in mind, I think a lot of this makes more sense.... 1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said: I heard we had a dev say a zerg farming 5 people was fun for both sides.... how? how could they possibly come up with that reasoning. I don't really get it either. But then again the 5 people keep coming back and nothing's explicitly forcing them to come back, at least not to the exact same spot. Like let's be fair here-- if people want to be treated better than NPCs, they should stop acting like them. Edited May 2 by ArchonWing.9480 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Yeah, then they chase you accross the field for whole minute and throw siege at you for denying them right to just farm you on your server that never has numbers. Horde of homunculi. 😕 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaReborn.1567 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said: Ooooh someone mad he can't farm pve blobs with 5 "good" players. Try running celestial harbs if you aren't already. 🤡🤡🤡🤡 As an experiment I wonder how many good cele harbs it would take to wipe an unorganized 50 man Zerg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted May 2 Author Share Posted May 2 34 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said: A lot don't because they only care about rewards. In fact, there's often a lot of pushback anytime they release anything remotely challenging, like in EoD. And a lot of CMs get played only once so they can get the achievements and never come back again because it's not suitable for farming. The game's reward systems also don't really reward anyone for challenging themselves, mainly because people start whining about some things being exclusive or elitism or some kitten. A lot of MMOs just run on easy mode farming. Even when stuff is harder, people try to find ways to put it on farm mode. But with that premise in mind, I think a lot of this makes more sense.... I don't really get it either. But then again the 5 people keep coming back and nothing's explicitly forcing them to come back, at least not to the exact same spot. Like let's be fair here-- if people want to be treated better than NPCs, they should stop acting like them. I dunno I guess different crowds. Gw2 is loaded with casuals, compared to say WoW. I think the mentality is different for say running mythic dungeons/raids in wow than running cm's here. But we always hear wvw fight people get bored and quit, commanders or guilds quit, I can't imagine it's because it got harder, but it got too easy and it's boring. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 41 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said: But we always hear wvw fight people get bored and quit, commanders or guilds quit, I can't imagine it's because it got harder, but it got too easy and it's boring. It's just PR for the most part. Of course they would blame it on something else. Most of the time they fall apart because they acutally hate each other and got together because they wanted to stack a team. This has been true for a long time. A little less than a decade ago some people tried to recruit some fight guilds to create a so called fight tier but it ended up lot an utter joke because like every concoction of that manner, it just ended up with a bunch of guilds stacking on the same server.... and being unable to fight each other. Then they all left and all the gold was wasted (thankfully I never took part in this pyramid scheme) because these things aren't binding. It's just a long list of dumb things that happened on these servers, though certainly not the last. But you don't have to take my word for it. There's just some delusional people out there. How many times have you heard from a guild "we are only 20" (excluding 40 green dots) or "I'm quitting the game" (still here after years of quitting) "They're hiding from us" (even though they probably just logged off) And it's not just them. The word of most outspoken players in the competitive Gw2 community isn't even worth the value of the toilet paper it's written on. And I'm not even talking the consumer brand.. More like the crappy thin commercial type. Edited May 2 by ArchonWing.9480 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widebody.5071 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 4 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said: Shouldn't anet be making "content" "harder"/"challenging" for organized groups? Not easier? I heard we had a dev say a zerg farming 5 people was fun for both sides.... how? how could they possibly come up with that reasoning. Don't pve players get bored of beating same easy raids over and over again? Doesn't the same idea apply for organized fight groups in wvw? Why do most of these guilds or groups fall apart in mere months? barely getting into years of service? They got numbers. They got voice. They're organized. They run meta classes. The game has been nerfed down to cater to them. Don't those organized groups get bored when their content gets too easy for them? when people run away from them? Shouldn't we try to find ways to get more players to face those groups? instead of chasing them out of wvw? They always proclaim they're in it for "competition", but anet seem to continue making content easier for them, making it less challenging..... Leading down the path of chase away the small groups, the roamers, making it easier to get boring for the big groups... eventually turning wvw into an actual ghost town. Pretty laughable to see a squad of 50 trying to farm 5-10 people. You may think you're producing content, but you're also killing it... I just don't get it..... 🤷♂️ 🔥🔥🔥👍👍👍Totally agree 100%, 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) 6 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said: I heard we had a dev say a zerg farming 5 people was fun for both sides.... how? how could they possibly come up with that reasoning. Yea? Who? Who told you this? Did you verify if it were really true? Did you hear this from your best friend's cousin's girlfriend's mother? What was the context in which this comment was supposedly said and how do you know it wasn't a misquote or sarcasm? How could they possibly come up with that reasoning? Well first we'd have to all accept that it's true before anyone could begin to wonder. It might be true and it might not be. You've given no way for anyone to verify and decide for themselves. Edited May 3 by Chaba.5410 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pukish.5784 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) Dude It's correct way of WvW. You need to enjoy chasing zerging solo with 50😄 Edited May 3 by pukish.5784 abcde 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pukish.5784 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Btw celestial/minstrel gear or nothing, blobbing, boon balling, always on strong server/community, transfer if you are not on, waiting for 50+ queue, that's the correct way of WvW. If you refuse correct way then you will be punished by perma que'd servers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrimm.5624 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 22 minutes ago, pukish.5784 said: Btw celestial/minstrel gear or nothing, blobbing, boon balling, always on strong server/community, transfer if you are not on, waiting for 50+ queue, that's the correct way of WvW. If you refuse correct way then you will be punished by perma que'd servers. lol. Let me tell you a tale of EotM. EotM being an overflow drew peeps when maps were full. Players played it versus wait in PvE. Players sought to game it when not full queues which drew players to hunt them on EoTM. The same will happen in WvW. Even with the nerfs to Outnumbered, there will be some to hunt larger sides. Should there be more reason to do so, yes. Will they still not face stubborn peeps without out it, yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urd.8306 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 My impression from playing mmorpg is that there is a lot of players that have fun running over a smaller number / weaker (noob) of players. It's pretty similar in WoW for example where you often meet full 40 man groups farming randoms in Alterac Valley for an hour without playing the objectives. I don't know where the fun is in that because I'd rather lose a match and improve instead of never improving and winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 2 hours ago, pukish.5784 said: Btw celestial/minstrel gear or nothing, blobbing, boon balling, always on strong server/community, transfer if you are not on, waiting for 50+ queue, that's the correct way of WvW. This perfectly sums up where the problem is and where development should focus to solve it. Behind the ironic tone often lies the truth. It happens a lot in real life as well. When you have to communicate something uncomfortable, it's better to do it in the form of irony. In a game mode based on competing teams we should worry/consider that the player's motivation to participate is right in there. That's why I remain of my opinion that WR is the perfect/indispensable tool to take a huge and innovative step forward in this game mode. But it needs to be contextualized, or you'll do more harm than good. The opportunities are: 1-Finally getting out of a perpetual format and into a seasoned format. 1 year season ends, you hand out the awards, you launch WR, and you start the season again. 2-As a result, winning or losing finally takes on meaning. 3-more credible competition, players will not be able to manipulate matches through transfers, we can divide all those stacked fighting guilds (for convenience because woe betide you playing against other well-organized guilds) But we have to worry about reducing the WVW guild limit. If we want small fragments, we have to make sure that they are really small. 500 is too many. 4-We move away from those conditions that Xen is indicating, too easy to win, loss of interest, guilds disbanding, commanders disappearing. Because every year you will get different conditions, different teammates, you will have to shape your strategy, readjust your style, regroup, even your enemies will change, suddenly it could become more challenging, more difficult for your group so renew your interest, your '' test yourself''. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bq pd.2148 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said: 3-more credible competition, players will not be able to manipulate matches through transfers, we can divide all those stacked fighting guilds (for convenience because woe betide you playing against other well-organized guilds) But we have to worry about reducing the WVW guild limit. If we want small fragments, we have to make sure that they are really small. 500 is too many. and yet with 2-3 alt accounts each it would still be trivial to break the balance of the matchups. say you collectively as guild set 3 different guilds as WvW guild for your primary guild for main + 2 alt accounts. first teams your main accounts might be rated as 'very active WvW player', but your alt accounts as practically inactive. so you then play which ever alt account has the better overall team to overstack that team while massively dragging down the team of your main account. then switch the acccount used each time teams are build. anet cannot predict where/how much you are going to play and thus will always under/overestimate your participation wildly. doing this as 1-2 players wont do much but as highly active 50-100+ player guild, especially coordinating the alt accounts WvW guilds will have an effect. Edited May 3 by bq pd.2148 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabi black.1824 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) 20 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said: and yet with 2-3 alt accounts each it would still be trivial to break the balance of the matchups. say you collectively as guild set 3 different guilds as WvW guild for your primary guild for main + 2 alt accounts. first teams your main accounts might be rated as 'very active WvW player', but your alt accounts as practically inactive. so you then play which ever alt account has the better overall team to overstack that team while massively dragging down the team of your main account. then switch the acccount used each time teams are build. anet cannot predict where/how much you are going to play and thus will always under/overestimate your participation wildly. doing this as 1-2 players wont do much but as highly active 50-100+ player guild, especially coordination the alt account WvW guild will have an effect. This is also true, I say to move towards WR (if it is contextualized and not left to itself, because launching it automatically every 4 weeks is absurd, then I prefer the drama we see today) after which the development team is still there. and slowly, with respect to the difficulties/unforeseen events that will arise, they will face them. I think that a communication from ANET on all this is particularly important. if you want to keep this community of players close to you. or better yet, strengthen it. Because there's a huge difference if you let me know what good you want to move ; to WR with a clear idea of how to keep this team-based mode competing with each other. Rather than just telling me or making me think ( even worse ) that we're going to WR because then it's all automatic and everything is solved. This is not something that Anet should underestimate. Edited May 3 by Mabi black.1824 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) 16 hours ago, Cael.3960 said: Once again you're making assumptions about group play from the perspective of someone who doesn't play it, doesn't understand it, and ultimately doesn't want it in the game at all. I don't know if that's true but it sure sounds that way with the questions being asked. Maybe the truth is that Anet is in fact making content more challenging for those who have had it too easy? I recall the days when defenders had to have defenses set up proactively, not rely upon tactivators that delay attackers so defenders have time to build siege or "set up a defense". Look around this forum at how many posts complain about the reductions to delay. Edited May 3 by Chaba.5410 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 6 hours ago, urd.8306 said: My impression from playing mmorpg is that there is a lot of players that have fun running over a smaller number / weaker (noob) of players. It's pretty similar in WoW for example where you often meet full 40 man groups farming randoms in Alterac Valley for an hour without playing the objectives. I don't know where the fun is in that because I'd rather lose a match and improve instead of never improving and winning. That's true. There's also an element of people being familiar with map indicators and how things normally roll out and people like to get to the action quick. Sometimes even when there's only hidden tags on, I can scope out the radar and how people are leaving Keep, and I'll know we have numbers attacking a Keep or making a quick SMC attempt. I'm probably not joining squads or groups but I'm definitely getting some of that and I better hurry before it wraps up. I don't get a huge amount of time to play. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 (edited) 5 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said: I don't know if that's true but it sure sounds that way with the questions being asked. Maybe the truth is that Anet is in fact making content more challenging for those who have had it too easy? I recall the days when defenders had to have defenses set up proactively, not rely upon tactivators that delay attackers so defenders have time to build siege or "set up a defense". Look around this forum at how many posts complain about the reductions to delay. Hmm, I would have a hard time believing that. And I wouldn't even shed a tear if every tactivator (especially watchtower) was deleted. That alone has probably been a -30 IQ to the average scout. I literally had someone on my recently ex-server (and thank God) tell us that NWT was lost because the EWP was wasted from a previous attack. Not because anyone was attacking it. I told them we didn't because we still had watchtower (you know the one that shines all the way down there and can see any approach into the tower) but then they were like it's useless because they can cata from outside of its range. It's like no kitten? You need to have a scout there sometimes. But then they tell me our scouts suck. Well duh. What are you doing? I have an idea. Why do you chill in the tower for the next 15 min? Of course we lose the tower in like 10m because people were defending Bay and they cry about the EWP even though nobody was even there to pull it-- and certainly they weren't scouting a tower right outside of spawn, nor were they at Bay. Most of them are horribly designed and/or balanced. Though granted a lot of them have been rendered obsolete by game balance changes. Chilling Fog does has pretty ineffective against groups for the longest time , the Banners are ok but have been nerfed quite a bit, and Invul walls/gates is no longer. As for the EWP, I've always been a proponent of deleting the damned thing and just returning us to being able to WP during defense events, which also nixes complaints about 1 person perma tapping a keep. Also didn't they also intend to buff defense by buffing the lord? I think the joke that was really paints the picture of their general cluelessness more than anything else. Edited May 3 by ArchonWing.9480 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted May 3 Author Share Posted May 3 1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said: As for the EWP, I've always been a proponent of deleting the damned thing and just returning us to being able to WP during defense events, which also nixes complaints about 1 person perma tapping a keep. I wouldn't care either way, but I'm mindful of whether or not that would break the last fine line of giving a kitten to come defend something cause it's convenient, no need to pre map hop or run there, otherwise y'all can just recap it in 5mins while we enjoy our merrygoround fights somewhere else. Cause no one gives a kitten about defending anymore. This tends to be a positive mechanic for an attacking fight group anyways, bags to farm cause like 75% of the time people wait until they already broke inner before pulling, so doubt anet would touch it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 (edited) 10 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said: This tends to be a positive mechanic for an attacking fight group anyways, bags to farm cause like 75% of the time people wait until they already broke inner before pulling, so doubt anet would touch it. Another thing we can't really use because too much incompetence. Then again I screwed up an ewp pull because it went to repair the wall instead. Yea, about that tactivator placement..... And of course the UI sucks sometimes too. I tried to build siege and couldn't because it was trying to res another dead person. That shouldn't even be an option when you're in combat. Then again, I probably shouldn't be throwing siege on dead allies lol. All this crap that could be improved but we get this nonsense. Edited May 4 by ArchonWing.9480 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 (edited) On 5/3/2024 at 12:11 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said: Hmm, I would have a hard time believing that. So would I. I was being facetious about Anet making more challenging content. But also I was serious about having defenses set up proactively. If you're trying to do it as a zerg is attacking already, it's already too late. Git gud. Edited May 4 by Chaba.5410 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchonWing.9480 Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 51 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: So would I. I was being facetious about Anet making more challenging content. But also I was serious about having defenses set up proactively. If you're trying to do it as a zerg is attacking already, it's already too late. Git gud. Yea I know. A good tactic is just to sit on one side a bit so they waste all their supply and then you go to another side. I used to setup stuff but then nobody would refresh the siege or siege cap the place with useless paper ACs. So then I gitted gud by just letting the stuff flip, saved my tokens! Though to be fair some learned eventually. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepwalker.1398 Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 On 5/3/2024 at 6:37 AM, XenesisII.1540 said: Don't pve players get bored of beating same easy raids over and over again? When PVE players get bored, they just setup afk minion master Reapers in Domain of Kourna to farm Choyas. Once in a while i visit those areas to play lure the Champ Shark. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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