The community becomes less demanding

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Well Pong does have a better story, characterization, and general writing.

Fair, except Pong doesn't have giant-sized Frodo. 😉

[Gaiawolf.8261]

15 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Once a class has a way to fill each niche, there is no point adding other ways to fill that niche. Capisce?

Fair. So don't add a niche or even a role. Add a fun, new playstyle like they did with all the previous especs and their twists on profession mechanics and new skills. Classes are not judged on what they can do, since there are only 3 roles in the game; they are judged on how they play. Sure both druid and willbender can play alachealer, but would anyone really confuse the two or play them similarly in any way? Kitten no!

[Ashen.2907]

9 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Well, you just ruined any credibility you had.

If you took a tongue in cheek comment about Pong having any story at all, let alone characterization, seriously then I am not the one without credibility.

In case you have never played it, Pong is just a couple of paddles and a ball. No story, no characters. Then again it is not meant to have either so it's lack of story is a neutral measurement.

That said, SotO had a bad story and bad characters (and yes I know that this is subjective), net negatives on both counts. Some of the worst storytelling and characters I've seen. 

[Ashen.2907]

47 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Fair, except Pong doesn't have giant-sized Frodo. 😉

I must concede that point. You win this time Gadget.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I must concede that point. You win this time Gadget.

Next time... NEXT TIIIIIME.....

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

38 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Fair. So don't add a niche or even a role. Add a fun, new playstyle like they did with all the previous especs and their twists on profession mechanics and new skills. Classes are not judged on what they can do, since there are only 3 roles in the game; they are judged on how they play. Sure both druid and willbender can play alachealer, but would anyone really confuse the two or play them similarly in any way? Kitten no!

That playstyle being useful is only based on the niche it fills.

Is there a point to adding another fun way to play alachealer to Ranger or Guard? What about another fun way to play Ranged DPS to thief or Ele? What about a super fun new way to play melee power DPS to Necro?

It doesn't matter what the fun new playstyle is if it's the same niche as something else the class has.

Because, it will either be worse than a current build, in which case it's not going to be used, or it'll be better, in which case the old one will not be used.

It's literally pointless.

So, once there is a way to play each niche (Ranged/Melee/Power/Condi DPS & Support or hybrids thereof) there is no point adding other ways to do those same things. But, you can add different weapons that fill gaps within those niches.

[Ashen.2907]

Paying customers finding fun in playing the same, or similar, niches in different ways isn't pointless particularly as most content in the game doesn't really need or even benefit all that much from character builds dedicated to a specific role.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

12 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

That playstyle being useful is only based on the niche it fills.

Is there a point to adding another fun way to play alachealer to Ranger or Guard? What about another fun way to play Ranged DPS to thief or Ele? What about a super fun new way to play melee power DPS to Necro?

It doesn't matter what the fun new playstyle is if it's the same niche as something else the class has.

Because, it will either be worse than a current build, in which case it's not going to be used, or it'll be better, in which case the old one will not be used.

It's literally pointless.

So, once there is a way to play each niche (Ranged/Melee/Power/Condi DPS & Support or hybrids thereof) there is no point adding other ways to do those same things. But, you can add different weapons that fill gaps within those niches.

That is not how most players choose their builds or classes. They choose their class/build/espec based on what archetype fantasy they prefer or how fun it is to play the class or playstyle. The only players that care about what niche or role a class can fulfill are instance PVE players, and those are a vast minority of the playerbase.

Even among them, different playstyle serve a purpose and gain preference, or else the meta would determine the best class for each role, and nothing else would ever get played. That's not the reality. There are several DPS builds played in all game modes, not just the BIS class. This is a lesser issues compared to the first point tho, since open world builds are far more popular and varied, there is demand for more of them.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

14 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Paying customers finding fun in playing the same, or similar, niches in different ways isn't pointless particularly as most content in the game doesn't really need or even benefit all that much from character builds dedicated to a specific role.

Yes, this. Players desire more playstyles and ways to play the game (and more class fantasy concepts), not just the objectively best way to play a particular niche.

[Knighthonor.4061]

On 6/5/2024 at 5:14 AM, PixeLpics.8017 said:

To recap, we went from: 

- Hot, Pof, eod : a lot of elite spe with new gameplay, new weapon for all classes. 

- Soto : just one new different weapon for all classes (most of which are currently useless)

- Jw : a new similar (recycled) weapon for all classes.

And now I see everyone says Arena are geniuses. Is it me or has the community become less demanding over the years?

 

We have. But many of us see the game on maintenance mode. So we lowered our standards. 

[Jski.6180]

Seeing how there not as much getting added for this expansion could we ask for core utility skill sets to be completed. We are missing heal skills and elite skills on nearly every class. It got go a long way to complete these sets with this coming expansion.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

3 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

That is not how most players choose their builds or classes. They choose their class/build/espec based on what archetype fantasy they prefer or how fun it is to play the class or playstyle. The only players that care about what niche or role a class can fulfill are instance PVE players, and those are a vast minority of the playerbase.

Even among them, different playstyle serve a purpose and gain preference, or else the meta would determine the best class for each role, and nothing else would ever get played. That's not the reality. There are several DPS builds played in all game modes, not just the BIS class. This is a lesser issues compared to the first point tho, since open world builds are far more popular and varied, there is demand for more of them.

Like I asked previously, what's the point in having another playstyle that is the same as the ones you already have? If a class already has a way to do all the actual possibilities, what else is there? There is only going to be different animations with different skill icons that have the same effect and result as what already exists. 

That's not a good use of development time.

[Omega.6801]

10 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Once a class has a way to fill each niche, there is no point adding other ways to fill that niche. Capisce?

Well, there are more things in GW2 than pure effectiveness in (I assume) instanced group content.
1) There's fun. People play for fun in the open world, they play what feels good to them and what fullfills their "class fantasy". Here a new Elite Spec will be used if it fullfills a new role to play in this roleplaying game.
2) There are different game modes. The split of Power, Condi, Boons and Healers is a very Raid/Fracs/Strikes centric view of things. WvW and PvP sees things a bit differenty. So a new Elite Spec can be a sub-par Condi-Supporter in Raids etc. but a best-in-slot Roaming build in WvW.
3) There's situational usefulness, even in instanced group content. A new Elite Spec can, due to access to new utility skills, bring something to an encounter that helps the team, a portal, a block, a stability source etc. That alone may not make it best-in-slot but it can make it still good enough to play in certain encounters.
4) There's fun, even in instanced group content. Maybe not in your static, maybe you all exclusively play what has the highest benchmark and switch as soon as something is 1k higher. But in my group,people like to switch classes/builds every now and then ecause things get boring after a while and it doesn't really matter if you play the top benching build or the tenth best benching build. Raids (we'll see about w8) are balanced around like 25-30k golem dps and powercreep made this number a joke for every build available. So when something new comes along, even if it's not atomatically best-in-slot, it will still be played, just for the variety of it. Again, maybe not in your static, and that's fair, that's your decision. But stating that "No one will play it" is just not true.

[Trejgon.9367]

15 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

We have. But many of us see the game on maintenance mode. So we lowered our standards. 

People are overusing the term "maintenance mode" to silly degree here.

Wanna see actual maintenance mode? Go take a look at Anthem. Or in even closer genre proximity - GW1. That is maintenance mode. GW2 is nowhere remotely near to that.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

12 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Like I asked previously, what's the point in having another playstyle that is the same as the ones you already have? If a class already has a way to do all the actual possibilities, what else is there? There is only going to be different animations with different skill icons that have the same effect and result as what already exists. 

That's not a good use of development time.

I never said anything about reusing playstyles that already exist. There are plenty of playstyles not in the game yet that can be leveraged for new players experiences. 

[Knighthonor.4061]

6 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

People are overusing the term "maintenance mode" to silly degree here.

Wanna see actual maintenance mode? Go take a look at Anthem. Or in even closer genre proximity - GW1. That is maintenance mode. GW2 is nowhere remotely near to that.

what state would you consider Everquest 1 to be in? You consider it still in its prime? I need to know to understand your comparison of what Maintenance mode means.

[Trejgon.9367]

4 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

what state would you consider Everquest 1 to be in? You consider it still in its prime? I need to know to understand your comparison of what Maintenance mode means.

I have no knowledge on state of Everquest 1 development state to answer that question. But to understand my meaning all you need to do is to take a look at patch history of the two games I named.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

17 hours ago, Omega.6801 said:

Well, there are more things in GW2 than pure effectiveness in (I assume) instanced group content.
1) There's fun. People play for fun in the open world, they play what feels good to them and what fullfills their "class fantasy". Here a new Elite Spec will be used if it fullfills a new role to play in this roleplaying game.
2) There are different game modes. The split of Power, Condi, Boons and Healers is a very Raid/Fracs/Strikes centric view of things. WvW and PvP sees things a bit differenty. So a new Elite Spec can be a sub-par Condi-Supporter in Raids etc. but a best-in-slot Roaming build in WvW.
3) There's situational usefulness, even in instanced group content. A new Elite Spec can, due to access to new utility skills, bring something to an encounter that helps the team, a portal, a block, a stability source etc. That alone may not make it best-in-slot but it can make it still good enough to play in certain encounters.
4) There's fun, even in instanced group content. Maybe not in your static, maybe you all exclusively play what has the highest benchmark and switch as soon as something is 1k higher. But in my group,people like to switch classes/builds every now and then ecause things get boring after a while and it doesn't really matter if you play the top benching build or the tenth best benching build. Raids (we'll see about w8) are balanced around like 25-30k golem dps and powercreep made this number a joke for every build available. So when something new comes along, even if it's not atomatically best-in-slot, it will still be played, just for the variety of it. Again, maybe not in your static, and that's fair, that's your decision. But stating that "No one will play it" is just not true.

That's not the point I was making. I'm not even referring to effectiveness at all, I don't play like that. People will play different things, IF they are different. And, that's my point. From a development point of view, there are better things to spend time on than making an eSpec for a class that already has that function covered. That's why there doesn't need to be any more eSpecs, the bases are covered, within the limits of each classes core mechanics. They can now just add weapons without adding more mechanics. Think of them as seasoning and garnish to an already full & completed menu.

 

9 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I never said anything about reusing playstyles that already exist. There are plenty of playstyles not in the game yet that can be leveraged for new players experiences. 

Ok, give us an example.

[kiroho.4738]

On 6/9/2024 at 2:49 AM, Ashen.2907 said:

Reading comprehension. Nowhere in my post does it say that I spend $1000 every month on GW2. In fact it states that I do not spend $1000 every month.

*Cough*

 

On 6/8/2024 at 4:34 AM, Ashen.2907 said:

I am not demanding anything but I am also no longer spending $600 - $1,000 per month across multiple accounts either.

Reading comprehension *Cough*

 

Edited June 10 by kiroho.4738

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Ok, give us an example.

Well there several threads of players offering suggestions for new class themes and playstyles. Here are a few I like, as just broad concepts.

 

 

[Doam.8305]

Less demanding I think not

This game has the most aggressive white knights out of any MMO I've ever played people have simply learned to simply not bother. There is no war and we have always been at war sort of thing for those that understand to give feedback is to be specific which sends in the brigade. There is always some valid issue that arises even things on the nose like them falling back on elites during HoT after pre-orders were made based on the info at the time. They will always roll the carpet out and thus I'd say the community isn't more demanding just more apathetic until as other posts in this topic have mentioned simply left as they'd rather players leave than question anything. 

[Cyninja.2954]

11 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

what state would you consider Everquest 1 to be in? You consider it still in its prime? I need to know to understand your comparison of what Maintenance mode means.

If you only know 2 states: prime and maintanance mode, then yes. That's a very limited way of looking at the wide range of content delivery there is.

Maintenance mode can obviously also mean different things to different people, in general though when used with a negative connotation, it means "keep the service alive with putting in the minimum amount of resources" which usually excludes new content (and in many cases even bug fixes).

MassivelyOP defines this as:

Quote

Maintenance mode is the point when an MMO is being maintained reliably but isn't being actively developed any longer. This is almost always a net result of the game being older and not having much in the way of budget and/or active playerbase left to really appreciate active development.

That's not the case here (at least not yet) and as such using this term only because one might be unsatisfied with the amount of content delivered is incorrect. It be far more reasonable and effective to "save" complaints about maintenance mode for when it actually hits.

To answer your question: Everquest 1 is not in maintenance mode. It sees active development to this day with yearly expansions. It might not see as large expansions as other titles in the MMORPG space, but it retains a stable and loyal fan base which continues playing this by now 25 year old game.

You want maintenance mode: Dark Age of Camelot is on maintenance mode (still running but no active development). Guild Wars 1 is in maintenance mode.

[Randulf.7614]

11 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

what state would you consider Everquest 1 to be in? You consider it still in its prime? I need to know to understand your comparison of what Maintenance mode means.

Comparisons to another person's "definition" are irrelevant. Maintenance mode means no content and the servers just left to tick along. GW2 is not even close to it. It has a strong population with continuous content updates. When no more maps, story, expansions or other development etc are made, then - AND ONLY THEN - it's maintenance mode. No other definition is correct. It's that simple. People can regard it as maintenance mode as much as they wish, but they are factually wrong. 

Edited June 10 by Randulf.7614

[Gaiawolf.8261]

3 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Comparisons to another person's "definition" are irrelevant. Maintenance mode means no content and the servers just left to tick along. GW2 is not even close to it. It has a strong population with continuous content updates. When no more maps, story, expansions or other development etc are made, then - AND ONLY THEN - it's maintenance mode. No other definition is correct. It's that simple. People can regard it as maintenance mode as much as they wish, but they are factually wrong. 

This is the way. People don't seem to respect definitions these days. We had someone in a other thread trying to push Pay for Convenience as Pay to Win too. SMH. 🙄

[Kitty.4806]

In future expacs, Anet could add a new elite trait line for core classes. Would be nice.