Why are Cele stats still in WvW, when they are removed in PvP for a reason ?

[Zyreva.1078]

30 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

then the most optimal choice you can make is playing that build with no stat investment...

Naked meta when?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

15 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

At the start of 6s you have 11604 HP. After WHaO and Vigorous Recovery you have 19756 (+8152). After regen and RG procs once (+738) you have 20494 HP. At the start of 7s you still have 20494 HP. Where did that second proc of regen and RG go?

Probably to the same place those double procs in my video went.

Going through second 8-15 of my video (vs dh) frame by frame - according to you at least two double ticks happen. At which frames?

Nah, how about you try explaining the opening first second of my video, seconds 0 to 1.

Reread my previous post to @Gotejjeken.1267 I already pointed out the math to you.

15 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Good catch - it does look like Trevor tried to stack multiple sources of healing to obscure the regen and RG ticks.

Come on dude. If that were true, you'd see it happening consistently through the entire footage, not only when protection is applied.

There are several points in the footage where i am not reapplying protection, where you can see there is only RG and R happening once per second. If it was some hidden regen buffs like from food or w/e else you're imagining it could be "which what could it be on a Ranger past RG and R or a food buff?" Yeah that's right, nothing. So knock of your disinformation bro. You're really just going out of your way to be ridiculous about this.

You simply cannot argue what you are seeing in even JUST the opening second of the bug video. That is blatant double upticking dude. There is literally no other way you can even attempt to explain what's happening there. It clearly isn't a food buff regen, and there are no other ways to get passive regen on Ranger past RG and R. I'm not even attacking for it to be a coy life steal. I'm just standing there taking damage.

Knock it off man. You're just salty at this point and in you're desire to win an argument and sh!tpost on me, you're just ignoring a very visible obvious bug.

Edited July 11 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Asuran.5469]

cele is op in lower tiered player cele is balanced in higher tier player

is l2p issue yes but the players left is mostly l2p players

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

42 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Naked meta when?

Playing naked is an extreme example, though pro players do already this kind of thing...but playing naked wasn't the point being made exactly you know lol.

In terms of optimal choices with respect to this topic: You want to play a build where the skills you press that have low bases/higher than 1 coefficients, are the stats that you are investing in. The skills that you press with higher bases and lower than 1 coefficients are the stats you want to not invest in, and if you can put them into the stats you actually should invest in, because those stats are better allocated to places where they aren't diminishing.

I think very little skills in this game if at all have 0.00 coefficients, but if it did, choosing gear wouldn't matter. Lots of skills fall between 0:00 - 2.00 coefficients, and typically bunker-y 1v1 like skills are the ones with low coefficients and higher bases...so in those bunker-y builds, you actually be better off, utilizing them by not investing into stats since they poorly scale.

To some folks, this is just really obvious when you spend a lot of time looking at coefficients...observing how bad the scaling of certain abilities are...wondering why you are bothering to invest in thousands of stats, for just a couple digits of improvement, like for instance on Necro life steal which have like .01 coefficients lol...and you figure out you are much better off running practically any set because no matter what you pick, its gonna perform the same.

The games balance design implies that if a skill has a high base value and low coefficient, it means they want that skill to be more universally played, since that property allows the skill to be invariant under stat choices.

Edited July 11 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Nah, how about you try explaining the opening first second of my video, seconds 0 to 1.

You have  6083 HP before any healing occurs. IB and VR add 1633 and 144 healing , you HP goes to 7860 accordingly. HP then drops to 7627 and 7394 (-233 each), then back up to 7417 (+23). Green numbers seem to appear that show 60 and something i can't decipher, but you say it's 59, so let's take that. Idk where those small heals come from, but could be a partial regen and RG tick maybe? HP drop to 7184, then 7009. The first second ends without any further healing. HP at start of second 1 = 7009. No apparent double tick. The 2 additional green numbers that pop up above your pet are obviously pet heals - one for IB and the second one very likely regen.

Now it's your turn. Tell me the exact frames as displayed in my last video where double ticks appear between second 8 and 15 of the dh video. And make a video that displays that bug properly, with combat log and no incoming dmg nor druid/EP/Nayos or any other unneccessary healing sources. And with condi ticks as time stamps. Like i did. Or at least explain where the alleged double ticks in second 6 of your "bug" video went. Or what happend to my comment on your hacking allegation video - that btw is still up without any update, depicting me as a hacker.

But it's totally me "sh!tposting", right ...

Also still waiting for your druid gameplay.

Edited July 11 by Zyreva.1078

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ok look my guy, If you don't want to actually go frame by frame and analyze this footage in the same we did, we are long past theoretical numbers.

Like we have footage that actually full proves what is being used and what isn't.

Watch seconds 0 and 1 in my recent video. There are 7 different integers that pop up in 1 second, that are not Invigorating Bond. The only other sources of heal on that Druid is RG and R. WHAO is clearly not used in this time frame in the video.

Literally 0:00 in your video:

major ranger bug — Postimages (postimg.cc)

Two (and a half) 'little green numbers', one for Regen and as suspected the 60/59 pair are from Rugged Growth due to the way boons work.  If you don't believe me, go find Justice's super long book about it and why boons and boon sharing are utterly broken.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter after this, as we can discern everything from 1 frame, even with very obscured numbers due to you running into 5 guards and showing no combat log, instead of you know using one of the many ambient creatures around and combat log to test with.

Anyway, I honestly was trying to be objective and wasn't kittenposting before, but I seriously might start referring to you as Trevor Howard with this kind of math / analytical discourse.

Anyway, have fun with your frames--as someone much smarter than me said, being excited with concepts without full proper understanding is going to be leading you to seeing inconsistencies with everything, everywhere.  

Edited July 11 by Gotejjeken.1267

[aymnad.9023]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

IT'S NOT EVASIVE PURITY. 

Then why is the blind getting dispelled at 1s and the cripple at 3s and 13s? Can you post your exact build (trait, equipment, food and so on) so we can all try to replicate it? I could not make it work during my tests. Did it work in PvE / PvP too?

Edited July 11 by aymnad.9023

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

51 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

You have  6083 HP before any healing occurs. IB and VR add 1633 and 144 healing , you HP goes to 7860 accordingly. HP then drops to 7627 and 7394 (-233 each), then back up to 7417 (+23). Green numbers seem to appear that show 60 and something i can't decipher, but you say it's 59, so let's take that. Idk where those small heals come from, but could be a partial regen and RG tick maybe? HP drop to 7184, then 7009. The first second ends without any further healing. HP at start of second 1 = 7009. No apparent double tick. The 2 additional green numbers that pop up above your pet are obviously pet heals - one for IB and the second one very likely regen.

Why are you only counting the first .25s tick?

I said look at all the numbers from 0 to where 1 begins. It's 9 separate green integers. It's very visible. Stop playing games.

39 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Anyway, I honestly was trying to be objective

No you're not. You've been tossing condescending remarks from the beginning, and you're playing the same game this other guy is, acting like there aren't 7 separate integers occurring in the 1s of 0 to 1, that are NOT Invogorating Bond or WHAO.

I don't know what this is, but you guys are just being ridiculous. This is extremely visually clear. Every post you make to dispute this, both of you are only looking at the first .25s.

Come on now.

And no, I'm not taking any more time to edit videos for you guys.

If you can't see what I'm pointing out in the first 0 to 1s of that video, you're just choosing not too.

Edited July 11 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Zyreva.1078]

37 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Why are you only counting the first .25s tick?

https://postimg.cc/XGg0MpCd

7009 HP at second 1. Split seconds after the picture of @Gotejjeken.1267, which still shows timer 0:00. No way any visible healing can occur in that timeframe without showing up on either screenshot.

And originally you are listing only 4 numbers yourself for the first second.

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

0s - 1633 IB, 144 and a 60 and 59 behind the 60 "I'm poisoned when it happens"

That's what i'm seeing too. So does @Gotejjeken.1267 it seems. And probably everyone else too. Or is anyone seeing something different?

And since Trevor refuses to anywer any of my questions, is anyone else able to point out any double regen and/or RG ticks in the ranger vs dh fight?

Edited July 11 by Zyreva.1078

[Asuran.5469]

1 minute ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And originally you are listing only 4 numbers yourself for the first second.

i think you only reading first log he said this

35 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

• 0s - 1633 IB, 144 and a 60 and 59 behind the 60 "I'm poisoned when it happens"
• 1s - dodge cleanses poison heals 334, another 144 pops up
• 1s - no poison, full heals RG and R and 248/247 (it double upticks in the same second right here)

zero second log alone is not a full second zero to end of one second is a full second

i do see seven greens in the one second

[Zyreva.1078]

17 minutes ago, Asuran.5469 said:

i think you only reading first log he said this

zero second log alone is not a full second zero to end of one second is a full second

i do see seven greens in the one second

Uhm no, that's not how it works. At the very start of the video the ingame timer shows 2:05. When that timer ticks to 2:03 shortly after the start of second 1 he still has those exact 7009 HP. The time frame from 2:05 to 2:03 can't be less than a full second.

Edited July 11 by Zyreva.1078

[Nefras.7314]

TL;DR Cele is even stronger because of a ranger "bug"

btw did anyone mention how ToF visually bugs out ? 🤫

Edited July 11 by Nefras.7314

[Asuran.5469]

i see in youtube video at start at zero second is two greens and then still in zero second point is two different greens after that

the big green is ib there are three other small greens

then at youtube video one second there is two green numbers and then two more green numbers in just one second that stays on screen together is four greens in one second

this is seven greens in about one and a half second there is a half second before two second mark pop up

i dunno look bug to me

[Lalary.3561]

On 7/10/2024 at 1:02 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

If cele is as busted as you guys claim, then core Ele on celestial should be destroying everyone and everything on it's path, yet it doesn't happen. Why is that? Maybe... because of busted e-speces~ I wonder what it is~🤭

Guess you've never been around when cele d/d ele were dominating in every SPvP matches.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

*sigh*

Important bit is after the 'Protect Me!', watch the Rugged Growth ticks. 

I roll twice to extend the protection duration (and try to demonstrate the spillover effect) but end up with 9 ticks of Rugged Growth anyway--my base duration on protection is 4.75 seconds from Protect me, and 2.25 on both rolls from Companions Defense, meaning 9.25 seconds.  It rounds down, so I end up getting 9 ticks of Rugged Growth.

At the very beginning you will see a whole bunch of numbers around the pet ending with an extra '4'...those numbers are strictly from my pet getting healed with Fortifying Bond, which also show as green numbers on screen.  This is why I feel it's important to do an isolated test with combat log showing to weed out any extraneous numbers popping up (as you can see them 1 for 1 in the combat log).  

I'm not sure how to make this any clearer.  

Edited July 11 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Auragen.4162]

5 hours ago, Asuran.5469 said:

cele is op in lower tiered player cele is balanced in higher tier player

is l2p issue yes but the players left is mostly l2p players

True let's just all outplay a 60% stat advantage lol

Cope harder

[Mystiz.8795]

13 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Exactly. It is very different than dueling. This is why I said much earlier that metabattle.com should make a clear distinction between duel builds and proper roam builds. Right now, the only proper roam builds that can do what you mentioned efficiently, are Willbender, Druid, Thieves, Eles, Mirage. And that has everything to do with the virtue of the class designs for being very mobile, having a lot of stealth disengage, or in Ele's case, just having a lot of everything else to be able to peel and get to a door or something before being killed. And this is regardless of the stat lines ran.

Honestly, out of the archetypes that I mentioned, Willbender does power stats, Druid can run power or cele or w/e, Thieves are best on power, Eles def on cele, and Mirage can run w/e it wants. These are the top roaming classes, and it has everything to do with their mobility/disengage prowess. Make of it what you want.

Then we have things that are really strong in dueling, that could not kite 1vX and win or at least survive, in the same way Willbender, Druid, Thief, Ele, Mirage can. These are things like Condiserks, Renegades, Harbingers, and all of that wears cele because cele is clearly the stronger option for duel builds. Of course a good player who would be considered let's say plat+ in pvp, could win a 1v2 or maybe a 1v3 against a bunch of guys who would be considered gold 1 or lower in pvp, regardless of the classes they are on. But when we are talking players of actual equal skill values meeting in these 1v2s or 1v3s, a Cele Harbinger who is let's say gold 3, is not going to win vs. say a Spellbreaker, a Holo who are also gold 3. He won't be able to outrun them either.

In a true 1vX type situation, let's say a Cele-Renegade or a Cele-Condiserk walks into the wrong position and didn't notice a 30 man zerg that was stacked tightly around a corner somewhere, there is no way they can outrun & survive if even a 1/4th of that squad chooses to chase. But see a Willbender, Druid, Thief, Ele or Mes, actually has enough mobility skills & ports, stealth detargets, and random effects that deny projectiles, to actually be able to escape and survive getting too close to a 30 man squad. This is why they are the top roaming classes. These classes are so well designed for that, they can actually purposely go out of their way to follow around a 30 man squad and harass them continuously without being caught & dying. THIS is what I'm talking about, the difference between the real roaming classes, and dueling classes that are roaming.

It just so happens that the slower powerful dueling archetypes do indeed all function best with cele, for obvious reasons of being able to support their own boon generation, heals, condi durations for things like immobs, ect ect, having hybrid power/condi damage to ensure getting past opponent defenses. But when it comes to serious try-hard roaming on those specified classes, we have sort of two different archetypes for true top roamers ok:

1. The highly mobile roaming cele duelist - Druid can achieve this, Eles can achieve this, Mirage can achieve this. These are GREAT in 1v1s and they have the necessary components to go out and get serious roaming done. They can survive 1vXs pretty easily with a bit of map awareness, and wait for moments to catch players in 1v1s and 1v2s that they know they can win. But this archetype has a lot less burst damage than their power counterparts. I often find while running my Cele-Druid, I'll get into these 1v3s or 1v4s that I can survive, but I can't actually stay long enough before needing to kite, to deal enough damage to a single target to down it, to be able to actually start getting kills so I can win the 1v4. In these situations, I will often disengage and OOC and then swap to something like this ->
2. The highly mobile roaming power burst - Willbender can achieve this, Druid and Soulbeast can achieve this, all types of Thief achieve this, and Shatter Mirage def achieves this. When the invulnerable Cele-Druid doesn't have the damage to tag downs in that 1v4, I'll OOC can quick swap to the Sic Em OWP. And then I'll turn around and target something like a Harbinger or a Thief who isn't expecting it, and start generating downstates. If you can take apart their unit like this, due to high sudden burst and an element of surprise, then when there is only a couple of them left, they are easy to kite & finish. And then see, I've won a 1v3 or a 1v4 with a build archetype that is in no way as powerful in a 1v1 as the Cele-Druid. But see this is what I mean about different things being used for different purposes. This archetype is very different because it isn't trying to achieve staying power in the 1v2 or 1vX, it is trying to achieve literally "blitzkrieg" power, where it zips in and out and attempts to generate downstates very quickly and then get away and reset. This is also arguably better than the cele-roamer, when it finds opportune moments to join in on say a 5v5 or even like a 10v10, because its damage output is heavy enough that it can make serious impact while assisting small groups.

But see even this ^ is considering that you're some kind of plat+ player against a bunch of gold or lower. When we are talking gold vs gold or silver vs silver, all these interactions function entirely differently due to l2p issues and people not utilizing their class kits optimally. And in the event of let's say they did another wvw tournament like in years 1 and 2, then we get the best of the best try hard players showing up, and now we're roaming in an environment where only plat+ players are out there, where gold or lower wouldn't dare to even walk out into that farm land to attempt to roam alone. In this event, the dynamic entirely changes in extreme ways. Now you could be a plat+ player on what normally feels like an invulnerable Cele-Druid, but when every other roamer out there is also plat+, we are no longer realistically looking at being able to 1vX or even win 1v2s, but the goal is now to avoid 1vX entirely and to just be able to survive 1v2s and get to door something before you get killed. Because IE: if a plat+ Cele-Druid starts getting chased by let's say a SD Daredevil and a Willbender who are also plat+, who are both wearing pure power burst stats and have many ports, you aint outrunning that, and you aren't going to actually win that either. It's only a matter of time before these players dwindle you down with extreme damage output and the ability to stick to you like glue due to so many ports. If anything in this situation at this level of play, Running the Cele Build is actually putting yourself into an impossible to win situation for that 1v2. Although the sustain is great and the damage is generally good, it simply does not have the damage it needs to generate a downstate quickly enough to turn that situation into a 1v1, and it is only a matter of time before their DPS will outride your sustain and you will lose. In that situation, and any experienced player knows exactly what I'm talking about, and this is exactly why in pvp right now, the meta is pure burst damage. Because to win a 1v2 like that when we are talking plat+ vs. plat+/plat+, the only option for a win, is to also be running full damage, and burst one of those players down very very quickly so you can turn the situation into a 1v1. This is the truth.

After really tossing analysis at this, I feel like this "cele vs. power" thing has been being discussed without a very very important factor being included, and that is: "what tier of players vs. players are we talking about here?" Because some players like @Zyreva.1078 or myself playing at plat+ levels roaming around on a Cele-Druid and engaging golds or lower and winning 1vXs, makes cele look godly. But a lot of what's going on there is very seriously mechanical l2p issues and people running poorly situated builds, who probably are trying to roam on what is intended to be zerg builds. Plat+ players are gonna stomp all over golds & lower, no matter what stats they run, even in 1v3s and 1v4s.

The reality of that try-hard plat+ vs. plat+ though, is much different. Just from the standpoint of a Cele-Druid which is one of the absolute roamers btw, when it comes to plat+ 1v1s, there are a lot of things that can deal with or actually kill the Cele-Druid if the Druid doesn't kite enough/stays too long/missteps at all. These things are:

1. Power Spellbreakers - Yes, due to deep boon removal tagging you at the right time to remove any stab, and chains of CCs, these can kill you if you mess up at all or don't kite enough. If the Cele-Druid is good, this plat+ vs. plat+ matchup generally results in a stalemate where both players realize they aren't going to kill each other. But the Spellbreaker can kill you and it happens suddenly if you mess up at all as the Druid.
2. Cele-Renegade - Although it is slow and Druid can easily leave this 1v1 with twice the movement as the Renegade has, these are dangerous in isolated 1v1s. Again, if the Druid messes up at all, the Cele-Renegade will very quickly gain the upper hand, forcing the Druid to have to utilize its mobility to begin kiting away for reset. The Druid can win, but this is a fairly balanced match up, where I'd def say that if it weren't for the Druid's superior mobility, the Renegade would have advantage.
3. Power Willbenders - These are seriously dangerous lately. I generally don't lose to them as Cele-Druid, but I've come across some players who really really lay down extreme pressure as Willbenders. You can kill the ones who overextend their CDs and get stuck near you too long. But the good ones, eventually realize that the Druid has just a sliiiight advantage, and they'll disengage and leave. These can definitely kill the Druid if the Druid messes up at all, and it happens fast.
4. Power Thieves Of All Types - The build I run on Druid is Axe/Axe/Staff with Turtle, so I have 3x rotating anti-projectile effects. Due to this, I typically never die against thieves. But the good ones can infinitely reset and keep coming back over and over and over, and eventually what happens is that they harass you for so long, that eventually someone else shows up to + him and you find yourself in a 1v2. This is the true strength behind the Thief class and it is the worst + to deal with when they are good. If the Thief is good, you need to immediately kite away from the slower person and try to keep it a 1v1 against just the Thief.
5. VS. other Rangers - You either hard-counter Power Rangers as a Cele-Druid, or you come across another Tank Ranger and it's a complete stalemate unless you can greatly outplay the other Ranger. I'm talking like a plat+ Cele Ranger might be able to tag an actual kill against a gold 2 or lower Cele Ranger. If you can't greatly outplay the other Ranger, it results in a silly situation where neither ever drops bellow 90% or 80% health.
6. Cele Eles - These actually sort of counter Cele-Druid. Again, we're talking about plat+ vs. plat+. Everything about Ele is designed to just sort of bully around Ranger builds. This match up will almost always result in a complete stalemate where neither can kill each other, but the Ele will be the aggressor, and the Druid will have to kite all over the place to survive.
7. Mirages - Other Mesmer specializations don't cut it. The Mirage makes the cut to due to Jaunt. As the Cele-Druid, I find Cele-Mirage to not have threatening damage, and typically I eventually win if I push them and they don't disengage quickly enough. The problem comes in when they start mixing stats. I'm not exactly sure what's going on here, but I come across a lot of really weird Mirage variants that are not listed on any site. Like weird variants running Greatsword with Infinite Horizon, who are running maybe Grieving pieces? I'm not sure, but they have a great deal of pressure coming from both the power side and the condi side of their bursts. They are squishier, but the consistent high pressure coming off this steady stream of IH procs and power shatters is actually dangerous. I'd say the Cele-Druid still has the upper-hand, but the Druid can die quickly if it missteps at all.
8. Cele Harbinger - I actually don't have a problem against Harbingers due to the axe/axe/staff/turtle triple anti-projectile build I've got going on. But I am aware that other people who are not running triple anti-projectile, do have problems against Cele-Harb in 1v1, so we'll put it in this list.

The point being, is that out of all the things that can threaten the Cele-Druid in 1v1s when we are talking plat+ vs. plat+, 4 of them are power, and 4 of them are cele.

But see, at lower tiers, let's say gold 1s vs. gold 1s, this would be entirely different when players were not optimizing the use of their class kits correctly. A good example of what I mean would be let's say a gold 1 DP Daredevil wearing cele vs. a gold 1 DP Daredevil wearing serk. Within the tiers of gold 1 players, the cele DP will probably win. Because in this tier, players make a lot of mistakes and get hit a lot more often than they should, and they're bad at launching DPS combos. The cele DP will tank a lot harder in the world of these l2p issues, and as they trade blows with autos "which they shouldn't be doing" but they are because it's gold 1 tier, the cele is going to come out on top. But then if we are talking Cele-DP vs. Serk-DP at plat+ vs. plat+ levels, the Serk DP is going to **** all over the Cele-DP for several reasons as to why the DP Daredevil archetype is just not optimized with cele stats, and is definitely optimized when wielding full power stats, when the archetype is being played optimally, correctly.

This brings me to my ultimate point which I feel is the heart of this debate that we weren't noticing, going back to what @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 was referencing. Under what premise of skill demographic are we trying to balance for? It needs to be defined. Are we discussing this from the standpoint of plat+ vs. plat+ players? Or are we discussing this from the standpoint of gold 1s vs. gold 1s, which is admittingly where the very large majority of the player base resides. This is extremely important to define for any further constructive debate, because the dynamic of stats/builds playing against each other in the world of gold 1s is much much different than how the dynamic plays out amongst plat+ vs. plat+.

This is not easy to answer, so I'll have to think about it a bit and get back to it later.

But here is something that needs to be posted to conclude the debacle of what happened with that core ranger vs. dh. Come to find out you were definitely right. There is actually a major bug going on with Ranger. After reading your post, I went in-game and tested it myself and recorded the Ranger heal up-tick bug, which is working very strangely might I add. I also recorded a demo of that DH's heal up-ticks. I found that for some very strange reason, every time a Ranger reapplies protection to itself, whether it is from dodge roll companion's defense, or protect me, or any source of prot, it for some reason grants a double up-tick at full value. It doesn't just stack duration of protection to allow Rugged Growth to continue granting up-ticks per second, no. It just instantly triggers an extra up-tick from Rugged Growth. The stranger thing here, is that it also makes it trigger an extra Regeneration up-tick. Why the hell is this happening? Absolutely no idea. I actually wish I woul have put on a food regen buff for the video to see if this bug is effecting ALL sources of passive regen on a Ranger. But it is definitely for some reason effecting both Rugged Growth and strangely also Regeneration. And it happens each time a prot is reapplied. This is actaully insanely busted and Arenanet needs to fix this. Then you can see when I record the DH's passive regens, it only ever up-ticks its F2 Absolute Resolve & Regeneration & food buff, once per second. I didn't take the time to test other classes and I wanted to keep this video upload very short and very small. But the footage provided shows that the Ranger is definitely majorly busted and the w/e is going on there, is not happening on a Guardian's passive regens. I'm not going to take the time to lay out a big number skew this time because it is unnecessary. You can plainly see in the video that my Ranger is getting several double up-ticks each time I reapply protection. And it's similar to his build, where the prot reapplies so often that I'm getting about 40% more passive healing than I should be. Again, like 14s of upticks in 10s, ect ect.

 

 

So can we move past this Cele Ranger vs. Serk DH thing and stop sh!tposting about it?

He wasn't using a hack. It's definitely a major bug in play. Ranger "which is my main class btw" is busted in the sustain department due to this and Arenanet really should fix it.

In conclusion to this:

1. When we did his Cele Ranger vs. my Berserker Druid and Cele Druid, I was the aggressor in both rounds and was pushing him all over the place. He had to kite from my DPS to survive. He can go ahead and upload that footage if he wants to.
2. Even considering what we've figured out here, I still almost oneshot him on the DH. And he certainly should have been put down from the TOF, if he hadn't somehow crossed it while taking no damage. I think it's safe to say that the Power DH did fine against Celestial, even considering these strange anomalies surrounding the Core Ranger.
3. I'm not even a Guardian main. I rarely even play the class, haven't seriously played it since old HoT meta. When I logged in to duel him, I didn't even warm up. I just logged in and went to him. He is on his main class playing at what I'd consider plat+ levels, and go to him on a class that I'm playing at probably around a gold 3 level. You have to take this into consideration.
4. In the original duel of Power Soulbeast vs Cele Ranger, that really is a hard-counter situation that I willingly walked into. Any Ranger main would tell you: "Condi Ranger tanks just win against Power Ranger variants". It's just true, so lay off it. The only way I could win that and tag an actual kill would be if he had been playing g2 or maybe g3 levels, and in that case I would have had room to find moments to out-play, but this was not the case, so lay off it.

Anyway, let's veer this back towards discussion on cele vs. power.

Wow that is a huge wall of text. I appreciate you taking the effort to reply in such detail, and this time round, I actually agree with almost everything you said. Your examples of effective cele roamers are exactly the same as what I have in mind, and your points about the different scenarios/outcome between gold and plat players make sense too. Tier levels of players do need to be taken into account in this discussion. I guess what you are trying to say is something like:

-If plat+ cele vs 2 or 3 low tier enemies, cele has a good chance of winning

-If plat+ cele vs 2 or 3 plat+ enemies, cele is extremely unlikely to win or even survive. Cele cannot down plat+ players fast enough, thus the only win condition is to go full power dps and get a lucky burst down on 1 player, and then follow up from there

-However, most full power dps builds will lose in 1v1 duel to cele builds, be it low tier or plat+

If that is indeed what you're saying, then I concur with it. That is something I didn't think about because I usually don't even engage fights against 2 or more high tier players, esp if they're playing meta classes. My primary objective in the game is to win almost all 1v1s, and the occasional 1v2 or 1v3 against low tier players. While a full power DPS build might surprise burst down plat+ players and even win the rare outnumbered fight which a cele build wouldn't be able to, that doesn't really satisfy me, because I know in an actual duel where the 'surprised' plat+ player is prepared and we go for say a best out of 5 match duel, I might not be able to beat him. So yes, I guess tier levels and roaming objectives do matter in this discussion.

Your example on thieves is true. Gold thieves might fare better on cele, but plat+ ones would fare better on power. I rarely have issues with cele thieves, the ones I struggle with the most are full berserker power thieves, esp if they're on axe/pistol or deadeye. But again, that is only the case if they are really good, in which case their low tankiness don't matter because they simply avoid damage via precise application of dazes, dodges, blinds, and positioning. Most thieves are not at that level though, and will get farmed if they try to go full berserker.

Regarding the cele druid matchups against other classes, I have a different experience than you, but that is probably because of different builds. Provided opponent is of equal/higher skill level and doesn't go ooc, here is my experience:

Power spellbreaker - Can beat almost all of them, endless fight with really good ones (both equally pressured)

Cele rene - Can beat almost all of them, endless fight with really good ones (I pressure more often than get pressured, though not enough to down them)

Power Willbender - Always win if he doesn't ooc or keep kiting

Thieves - Too many builds to consider here. Lost before to really good cele specter using scepter, good deadeyes, power axe/pistol and cele axe/dagger thieves.

Rangers - Can beat almost all of them, endless fight with good druids (both equally pressured)

Cele ele - Can beat most of them but it might take a long time. Endless fights against really good ones (both equally pressured). Lost to one ele before, he was using hammer cata with signet of astral ward to hard counter me.

Mirages - Can beat almost all of them, though have to be very careful not to get bursted down by dagger mirage. Their cooldowns and sustains are just inferior to druid.

Cele harbi - This one is odd. It is almost never an endless fight. I beat the lower tier ones (probably 70-80% of them), but lose to the rest. Sure I can disengage if I'm dying, but I count that as a loss

All that is granted I play during off hours more often than not (being Asian), so perhaps I have never met the truly top tier players.

Regarding the possible healing bug, such technicalities are really not my thing so I'll refrain from commenting on them. 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

9 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

*sigh*

Important bit is after the 'Protect Me!', watch the Rugged Growth ticks. 

I roll twice to extend the protection duration (and try to demonstrate the spillover effect) but end up with 9 ticks of Rugged Growth anyway--my base duration on protection is 4.75 seconds from Protect me, and 2.25 on both rolls from Companions Defense, meaning 9.25 seconds.  It rounds down, so I end up getting 9 ticks of Rugged Growth.

At the very beginning you will see a whole bunch of numbers around the pet ending with an extra '4'...those numbers are strictly from my pet getting healed with Fortifying Bond, which also show as green numbers on screen.  This is why I feel it's important to do an isolated test with combat log showing to weed out any extraneous numbers popping up (as you can see them 1 for 1 in the combat log).  

I'm not sure how to make this any clearer.  

It actually isn't happening in your clip. What I'm seeing in your clip, it's working the way it should be working. Notice how you only ever get "2 heal integers show up, they go away completely, then 2 new heal integers show up, they go away completely, then 2 new heal integers pop up, go away completely" and the only difference here in your clip is the occasional EP proc when you dodge. Otherwise, you're getting only 2 heal ticks per second.

Now go back to the opening mark of 0s all the way to about 1.5s in my video, which that other guy was right actually and I didn't notice it myself, but all that healing does happen by about 1.5s, and then right at 2s it picks up with upticks again with no delay. There are 8 heal integers that show up in 1.5s. 2 of them are Invigorating Bond and Evasive Purity. 6 of them are straight triggering off Rugged Growth and Regeneration. I'm not lying to you or sneaking in regen procs or trying to make it look like something it's not. That Druid is wearing karakosa relic, energy/cleansing on both weapon sides and durability runes. It has wilderness 132, nature 213, druid 112. I ate pve food/utility before the test to make sure supercake regen food was OFF. It had on delicious rice ball and bountiful maintenance oil in the clip. In it's tooltips, shows RG at 354 per second, and R at 351 per second. There are no other healing per second or direct heal or life steal effects anywhere on this build, except for RG, R, and then Invigorating Bond and WHAO. Of course there is a bunch of water fields and blasts on it that you can see are not used in the clip. What you're looking at is use of IB and WHAO to make regen and copy prot at times, which it's obvious which integers are IB and WHAO because those heals are in the several thousands for single integers, whereas the small regens from RG an R are only ever like 300ish at max.

You can see at several times in my short clip, it very seriously occurs each time I reapply protection, it catches double heal upticks, and they aren't "spill over numbers". So instead of broadly investigating the whole clip, just look at the very start of 0s to about 1.5s. There are 8 integers that show on the Druid in this 1.5s. The over 1000 heal is IB. The 334 is EP on dodge. But then you can distinctly see 6 other heal integers that show up on the Druid that are not IB or EP, which happens in 1.5s. WHAO isn't even used. Add them up: 144, 60, 59, 144, 247, 248. This is 902 heal from Rugged Growth and Regeneration. The heals from EP and IB are already accounted for in that 1.5s and are not added into that total. Remember, there are no other possible heal sources on the Druid.

Now keep in mind I'm poisoned until the last two heal ticks when I dodge roll and cleanse it with EP, so the first 4 are reduced by 33%. Between the RG being at 354 per second and the R being at 351 per second, I should only be healing 705 per second. But even while poisoned, I'm healing 902 "while not counting EP or IB". We are only adding up the passive heal upticks. So if the first 4 upticks at 144, 60, 59, 144 had not been poisoned, they would have actually healed +72, +30, +29, +72 more than they did. My total healing not poisoned, would have been 1,105. -------- Then right as the 2s time stamp starts, it picks right up again with full values "no spill over numbers" but full values for the start of the 2s mark, at 370 and 360.

It is VERY important to note, that at the start of the 0s time stamp, I actually do not have prot or regen on yet at all. The prot and regen buffs don't even hit my status bar until about 0.5s. Go watch it yourself. So from about 0.5s to 1.5s, I somehow magically passively heal 1,105 from tool-tips that say I should only be healing 354/351 "about 705 per second". It's exactly what I've been saying, the healing in that one second, from 0.5s when the buffs apply to about 1.5s, in this one second, somehow I am passively healing about +50% more than I should be, in that one second interval. 50% of 705 would be 352. 705+352=1,057. Keep in mind, this happens in nearly exactly a 1s interval.

THEN it goes about .5s more, to the beginning of the 2s time stamp, it doesn't even wait a full second after that huge over-healing before it resumes heal upticks as normal at full value "no spill over numbers". As soon as the 2s time stamp begins, which is about .5s later, it resumes full value healing at 370/360 for a +730 heal. Now we are at a total of 1,835 heal that has occurred from about 0.5s to 2.10s. So in about 1.60s, it has healed 1,835, when it is only supposed to be healing 705 per second. And at 705 per second, it should only be healing 1410 per 2 seconds. So please explain to me how it is healing 1,835 in 1.60s.

I'll tell you why, and you can see it at several points in my footage, whenever protection is reapplied, something weird is going on and it starts triggering heal upticks early or it's overlapping or, something is going on here. Because in the seconds where I sit completely idle and do not proc protection, the heal upticks work completely normally and only do 370/360 over and over, they show up an disappear before the next integers show, and it looks like how it does in your video, and I only ever get about 705-730 per second. But any time prot is applied, something goofy happens and you get like +50% heal for that interval.

I don't know why it's not happening in your footage in pve, maybe this is somehow specifically tied to something in wvw, I have no idea. I haven't tested it or even attempted to pay attention to it in pvp. But this is definitely happening in wvw. I don't understand how you guys can't see this.

At some point you have to look at the obvious here. In your footage, you only see 2 numbers show up per second, outside of EP.

In my footage you're seeing 4 to 6 numbers show up in that second that is not IB or EP, totaling +50% heal factors for RG and R that second when it happens.

I'm not lying to you. Those heal factors are coming off RG and R alone. And I'm telling you, it is happening when protection is reapplied. Not when it's first applied, but when it is reapplied, like if protection is already on you, and then more protection goes on you. If the protection goes away and you apply it clean, it doesn't seem to trigger w/e this is.

Edited July 12 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[TheGrimm.5624]

So what I have seen from all this is Zyreva sees Cele as op on all angels due to ranger sustain needing nerf and not basing that off of any other class. So ranger nerf when?

Again your Cele witch hunt. Get over it. You just showed in all these posts that there are issues with ranger and not Cele.

[Zyreva.1078]

30 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Now go back to the opening mark of 0s all the way to about 1.5s in my video, which that other guy was right actually and I didn't notice it myself, but all that healing does happen by about 1.5s, and then right at 2s it picks up with upticks again with no delay. There are 8 heal integers that show up in 1.5s. 2 of them are Invigorating Bond and Evasive Purity. 6 of them are straight triggering off Rugged Growth and Regeneration.[...]

There are 8 integers that show on the Druid in this 1.5s. The over 1000 heal is IB. The 334 is EP on dodge. But then you can distinctly see 6 other heal integers that show up on the Druid that are not IB or EP, which happens in 1.5s. WHAO isn't even used. Add them up: 144, 60, 59, 144, 247, 248. This is 902 heal from Rugged Growth and Regeneration.

The 144 heal has to be Vigorous Recovery. As you can see here - it definitely procs on IB. It doesn't proc a second time right after in my video and i don't know why it does in you case, but there is still no reason to assume that's anything else but VR. So we got at most 2 procs of RG+Regen in 1,5s - and that's well within what is expected without any bugs present.

I made a picture of every single heal ticks of the first 6 seconds of your video:

Video timer 0:00 - Ingame timer 2 :04 - 1633 IB, 144 VR, 60 RG, 59 RE

Video timer 0:01 - Ingame timer 2:03 - 334 EP, 144 VR, 248 RG, 247 RE

Video timer 0:02 - Ingame timer 2:02 - 370 RG, 369 RE

Video timer 0:03 - Ingame timer 2:01 - 499 EP, 215 VR, 370 RG, 369 RE

Video timer 0:04 - Ingame timer 2:00 - 370 RG, 369 RE

Video timer 0:05 - Ingame timer 1:59 - 370 RG, 369 RE

Video timer 0:06 - Ingame timer 1:58 - WHaO 7937, VR 215, 370 RG, 368 RE

Your HP changes line up with these numbers posted. I'm not missing out on anything. And there's not a single double tick of RG or regen, let alone both. The only weird thing is that VR procs on dodge or evade (because of EP maybe?).

Again - if those double ticks of regen or RG would really happen, it would be incredible easy to prove and showcase. And yet you can't. All you produce are walls of text full with nonsense that is easily debunked.

So how long do you want to continue to bend the truth and make a fool out of yourself?

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So what I have seen from all this is Zyreva sees Cele as op on all angels due to ranger sustain needing nerf and not basing that off of any other class. So ranger nerf when?

Again your Cele witch hunt. Get over it. You just showed in all these posts that there are issues with ranger and not Cele.

Too bad you are on NA too, so i can't show you first hand what actually good cele builds of other classes are capable of doing.

But whatever, you have heard it all: Core ranger op, pls nerf!

Edited July 12 by Zyreva.1078

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

46 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

The 144 heal has to be Vigorous Recovery.

March 19, 2024

Vigorous Recovery has been reworked and renamed to Pumping Up. Gain might when you dodge.

Pumping Up - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

46 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

I made a picture of every single heal ticks of the first 6 seconds of your video:

Yeah I already did that several times now. I'm quite aware of the numbers to the point that I remember them off the top of my head now.

46 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Your HP changes line up with these numbers posted.

Yup so there are no UI problems. What is shown for healing is actually healing that amount.

46 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And there's not a single double tick of RG or regen, let alone both.

Yes there is. You can visually SEE IT. From the moment at 0.5s when prot and regen actually activates, to the point of 1.5s "these time stamps are correct", it shows 8 integers occur. 1 of them is IB, the other is EP. The other 6 integers are coming entirely from RG and R. What do you not understand about this? These should be upticking only twice in 1 second, not 6 ****ing times.

Then I've already done the math to explain that the tool-tips show 705 health per second. But this is healing 1105 in 1 second. Even with poison on, it is still healing 900.

Then at about .10 seconds past 2s bechmark, it resumes completely normal full values at 354/351 per second. It doesn't wait anywhere near a full second before doing this. And then it proceeds to tick normal values the way it should, until I reapply protections, and this is where we see strange upwards of +50% heal values for that particular second interval.

I gotta stop doing this with you man. It's no offense. But this is literally "visually and mathematically obvious" that something is inflated heal per second values. I'm not lying to you or mistaken in what the build is using. I don't understand how you aren't seeing this.

46 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Again - if those double ticks of regen or RG would really happen, it would be incredible easy to prove and showcase. And yet you can't. All you produce are walls of text full with nonsense that is easily debunked.

So how long do you want to continue to bend the truth and make a fool out of yourself?

It is easy to prove and I've explained it several times now. You are just choosing to ignore it.

In every response you make, you are either wrong about something, like the Vigorous Recovery which is a trait that doesn't even exist anymore, or you just ignore the benchmarks & math I'm presenting to you that is very clearly showing +50% heal gains during second intervals in which protections are reapplied. You say "oh your wrong" and "the numbers are normal" but don't actually crunch out any math yourself and you ignore commenting on the details of what I've provided.

So let me ask you this directly and I want you to answer it instead of dancing around the fact and not commenting on it:

From that point of 0.5s to 1.5s in the very opening of the footage, there are 8 integers that show, 2 of them are IB and EP, where are the 6 passive integers coming from in that ONE second, and why are they totaling 1105 heal, when you see in other portions that the RG an R is only ticking at 370 and 360? Answer the question and stop acting like that isn't happening.

Remember, there are NO OTHER HEAL SOURCES on this Druid. I'm not lying to you. There is no food regen, no life steal, no nayos. It's wearing energy/cleanse on both swaps, karakosa relic, durability rune. And as a Ranger main, you should know that the only sources of passive regen that it can have, is RG and R. The ONLY other trait it could possibly be, is Windborne Notes that does a small heal on Warhorn use, but I am not using WN because you can clearly see I am using EP. What you are seeing here, is RG and R alone, upticking 1105 heal in 1 second. And then during the 2s bechmark, it ticks normal at 360/370. Then the next time I reapply prot, it does the same thing, strange extra numbers show up, inflating the regen values for those particular second intervals. If you can't see it, you're just choosing not too.

Edited July 12 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[schloumou.3982]

20 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

But see even this ^ is considering that you're some kind of plat+ player against a bunch of gold or lower. When we are talking gold vs gold or silver vs silver, all these interactions function entirely differently due to l2p issues and people not utilizing their class kits optimally. And in the event of let's say they did another wvw tournament like in years 1 and 2, then we get the best of the best try hard players showing up, and now we're roaming in an environment where only plat+ players are out there, where gold or lower wouldn't dare to even walk out into that farm land to attempt to roam alone. In this event, the dynamic entirely changes in extreme ways. Now you could be a plat+ player on what normally feels like an invulnerable Cele-Druid, but when every other roamer out there is also plat+, we are no longer realistically looking at being able to 1vX or even win 1v2s, but the goal is now to avoid 1vX entirely and to just be able to survive 1v2s and get to door something before you get killed. Because IE: if a plat+ Cele-Druid starts getting chased by let's say a SD Daredevil and a Willbender who are also plat+, who are both wearing pure power burst stats and have many ports, you aint outrunning that, and you aren't going to actually win that either. It's only a matter of time before these players dwindle you down with extreme damage output and the ability to stick to you like glue due to so many ports. If anything in this situation at this level of play, Running the Cele Build is actually putting yourself into an impossible to win situation for that 1v2. Although the sustain is great and the damage is generally good, it simply does not have the damage it needs to generate a downstate quickly enough to turn that situation into a 1v1, and it is only a matter of time before their DPS will outride your sustain and you will lose. In that situation, and any experienced player knows exactly what I'm talking about, and this is exactly why in pvp right now, the meta is pure burst damage. Because to win a 1v2 like that when we are talking plat+ vs. plat+/plat+, the only option for a win, is to also be running full damage, and burst one of those players down very very quickly so you can turn the situation into a 1v1. This is the truth.

This is such a nonsense take. Apparently when you play power builds you have magically double the people on the map. Have you ever fought 2v2 or 3v3 vs cele builds? Power builds get stomped exponentially harder in those fights, especially in this support heavy meta because stats like boon duration, healingpower and such are not selfish like power but benefit others around you. Not that it says much, but i fought like 15+ people with 3 friends on cele and produced downs left and right.

Edited July 12 by schloumou.3982

[Zyreva.1078]

9 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

March 19, 2024

Vigorous Recovery has been reworked and renamed to Pumping Up. Gain might when you dodge.

Pumping Up - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

That's a thief trait ...

This is what i'm talking about: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Live_Vicariously

9 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

From that point of 0.5s to 1.5s in the very opening of the footage, there are 8 integers that show, 2 of them are IB and EP, where are the 6 passive integers coming from in that ONE second, and why are they totaling 1105 heal, when you see in other portions that the RG an R is only ticking at 370 and 360? Answer the question and stop acting like that isn't happening.

->

54 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Video timer 0:00 - Ingame timer 2 :04 - 1633 IB, 144 VR, 60 RG, 59 RE

Video timer 0:01 - Ingame timer 2:03 - 334 EP, 144 VR, 248 RG, 247 RE

 

Edited July 12 by Zyreva.1078

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

18 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

That's a thief trait ...

This is what i'm talking about: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Live_Vicariously

Ok, you're right. The initial unexplained integer is LV.

But it has a 1s CD, so after the first application of prot to the Smokescale at .5s, we get 1 more integer accounted for.

In that 1 second that shows 8 integers, 1 of them is IB, 1 is EP, 1 is LV. 2 of them should be RG and R. Then we have 3 unexplained integers still, and LV. It can't trigger again until past 1.5s.

Even if those are 2 additional upticks of RG and R, what the hell is the 3rd extra integer?

With LV considered into RG and R, now we are looking at 354 RG +351 R + 208 LV = 913 per second

But I am still healing at 1105 per second for some reason, and it has to do with those additional 3 integers that can't be explained.

I'm telling you it happens on dodge rolls/protection reapplications. The only thing I can make of it, is that it has to have something to do with protection reapplication & RG triggers. I don't see what else it could be.

Edited July 12 by Trevor Boyer.6524