Janthir Wilds Spear Beta Event Feedback: Thief

[JosephKatz.9375]

As a thief main;

Compared to the other classes that I’ve tried, thief spear is far lacking. The requirement to melee, consisting mostly of condition damage, and not having any overarching WOW effect when compared to the other classes, I feel it’s very subpar. The bleed stacking is nice, but axe is much easier for that, same with the poison. Also, the stealth attack should NOT be a melee attack, and instead should be a ranged unblockable or just something much more devastating especially due to its difficult to attain with only 3 consecutive hits with attack 3.. again very difficult against a moving target, generally very underwhelming in its current form against most all other classes with their spears.

 

I find myself spamming both 1 and 2, as 3 is fairly useless outside of the evade and stealth but you quickly eat through initiative. Thief spear needs more impact altogether, please take more time looking at the old assassin skills in gw1 as a reference as that felt much more dangerous than this one does in its current state..

 

Mostly, skill 5 and the stealth attack should be completely redone as they have little to no impact on gameplay, outside of the short duration daze spam on hitting crippled targets. Please redo the concepts of 4,5 to give them a much more “thief/assassin” feel. Please and Thanks.

Edited Saturday at 02:56 PM by JosephKatz.9375

[DarkLancer.1902]

Well, this is ... different. It certainly doesn't lack for damage, though learning to use it to its fullest potential will be a labor of some time. It is, however, made of cardboard and tinfoil, and breaks as such.

[SentriX.3209]

I'd add some Torment to please the Specter crowd.

[Dusk.4708]

World vs. World Roamer/Havoc use here:

Sustain

- Flows amazing and is very speedy, does great hybrid damage. (tested in full cele w/ condi runes)

- Has responses for many situations, yet still has some issues w aoe focused defensive specs so theres counter-play. (think catalyst, dragonhunter traps, scourge wells, etc.)

- Mobility is extremely powerful you can keep up with just about anything and escape very easily with the kit.

Improves

- Like some said the stealth skill 1 is easily interupted with other skills.

- Skill 4 needs to have increased initiative cost of some kind as a spammable daze is MURDER to a break bar otherwise, I love the ranged stomp stopper!

-  Skill 3/1 (the cartwheel) I can outrun people on mounts ands be a mile ahead of them just spamming it, it's way too fast. Legitimately just increase initiative cost by 1 point and I think thats a good baseline to work off of for future tuning as it will limit the spammability cause I know I was annoying people with how stuck I stayed to them in a chase (I definitely would be irritated by it if it was the other way around). 

Overall honestly, this weapon surprised me did not expect to have as much fun as I did cartwheeling at people and playing as a mosquito tonight, please do this weapon justice as its almost perfect as it is in my opinion (just needs some minor adjustments to keep the thief haters happy!). 

[MKJO.8970]

I can agree on the weapon feeling quite strange / lackluster in comparison as e.g. Necromancer and Mesmer..
You do know that your spear 4 is primarily used for the 10% damage boost after finishing your combo and secondly for help with CC? It is a great tool imo.

I do not feel that the hybrid element of the spear fits the Thief well. The thief do already have very promising weapons for all of its specializations, to which I do not see any reason why the spear needs to be added.. Especially Deadeye. The complex Deadeye+Axe rotation is outperforming both Daredevil and Specter on condi dps. Why, for the love of all skritt, do you want another complex condi weapon targeted at the same spec as axes. It makes NO SENSE. In my humble opinion, the spear should have been power oriented to leave staff for Quickness Deadeye and let the spear shine as a power weapon which do not require you to one-button-rotation. Making the spear a hybrid weapon was a huge miss.

The visuals and combat mechanics feels great tho ❤️

[Sandzibar.5134]

needs more aoe and more unblockable.

or lets go FULLY INSANE...and add aoe unblockable that also cleaves symbols and wells away. 

one can dream of an acceptable wvw zerg theif build I guess.

 

 

 

[Strutter.2719]

Super fun to play, great potential, but let down by the same design decisions that hampers thief weapons.

For power, huge reliance on M7 initiative regen. Much less useable on daredevil since auto attacks are terrible and the initiative regen on spear isn't enough to counter m7 reliance. More initiative regen outside of deadeye or better auto attack perhaps? 

Hybrid weapon, similar balance issues as usual. We don't do well with hybrid since they always seem to just do power or condi well. 

Spectre initiative, need I say more? Just delete the reduced ini for spectres already. 

Spear 4 buff or stealth attack, you need to choose (again unless you are deadeye). Make it so stealth attack doesn't stop the buff from applying since we no longer follow a finisher. Time window perhaps? 

The leap on 3 is way further than 480, which is either a bug or just the tooltip is wrong. It's super fun but kitten that can't be allowed in pvp or wvw. We get enough hate as it is!

I really like spear, it has potential, but we absolutely do not need more condi or power deadeye love when spectre and daredevil are basically not benefitting at all from weapon mastery and use the same weapons we always have. All the stuff above could probably just be tweaked tbh. 

 

 

 

 

[MKJO.8970]

Would it be far fetched to suggest that the 10% dps buff from buff 4 was moved to the finisher of spear 3? I feel the spear cannot perform anyway nearly as good on other specs as the spear can on deadeye. Forcing the player to use the spear 3 finisher+stealth attack to get the dps buff would somewhat remove the opportunity to include cantrip stealths + relic of the deadeye for high dps. Thus, finally adding immersive gameplay to daredevil which finally will require the player to be at a higher skill-level than the hit one-button-smashing playstyle Daredevil currently suffers from.

Edited Friday at 11:38 AM by MKJO.8970
Corrections..

[youngarr.2073]

PVP perspective:

I feel like the damage is way too low. I think that'd be okay there was a way to port in/out of melee range. I think if there was a way for me to move out of melee range the low damage would be understandable. I wish the stealth attack also had a ranged option as well. And either the ranged 1 should be faster or more damage (one or the other but not both). The Block skill actually didn't help as much as I thought it would. Not sure why though. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

What if, and hear me out, we would be able to have a different feature to hit #1-5 and go through the chains of attack but in order to do the rest of the other chains we have to hit those buttons....it would be similar to how we auto attack, defaulted #1, but the Built-in mechanic would be choosing which auto chains or 2/3 chains we set as current auto attack chain as a hockey (1-5 buttons to set current "stance" auto attack chain to queue?

I struggle to explain...

Edited Friday at 03:07 PM by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Editing my comment because my feelings on its performance in WvW have changed a bit since writing the original comment. PvE it feels great and WvW it feels like it's almost there. A lot of the design decisions are really great and the weapon is incredibly fun to play. Will see if I can come up with some more stuff to write.

Edited Saturday at 05:02 PM by Za Shaloc.3908

[youngarr.2073]

also shadow force isn't generating from using imitative while wielding spear

[Simzani.4318]

I only play specter and mostly wvw.

It's just another dead weapon.

[Krissparrow.9683]

Swindler's Equilibrium should work with the spear and also Fluid Strikes, in my opinion, should trigger from the 3 lead attack.

It is clear that the weapon as it is right now is more condition dmg oriented than power dmg, which is a shame in my opinion (considering it's being advertised as a hybrid weapon).

I tested it with a power deadeye build and in my opinion you should really make something about the stealth attack that actually rewards you for the malice you build up. If it was for me to decide I'd completely change the stealth attack, making it more bursty and snappy so it can see play in pvp. Yes, the animation is lovely, great job for real, but it's impractical. Might as well make the stealth attack mele or ranged depending on your position.

I personally don't like the way you receive the dmg buff from the 4th skill, especially in pvp since you can't really get the buff as you could probably imagine. I also don't like the 5th skill. In my opinion it's lacking. I would definitely prefer a more offensive/defensive skill there (sort of what the 5th skill is under water).

In conclusion, this is not a good pvp weapon in this current state. I am not going to complain about the numbers, since they may be low but the fact that you don't trigger the traits from the acrobatic specialization makes it impossible to actually check the strength of this weapon in a power build. Honestly I will be really happy to see acrobatics being used more since it's the least played trait line in any thief build.
Thank you if you actually read my post.

[Antycypator.9874]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:24 PM, Antycypator.9874 said:

Mantis Sting and other #2 skills. Strike-damage wise is weaker than the sword. Condi-wise it... OK, I guess?

After further testing I've ended in conclusion that condi damage is strong... but against the training golem. Even full celestial Deadly Arts/Shadow Arts Deadeye can reach 16k dps against the clean golem, without added boons. I saw Specter benchmark 51k (allies).

In reality — when you go outside training arena and meet something that fights back, move, throw CC at you — it's not that great. Spear is very punishing against moving targets. Spear also lacks on cleave, so we have another single target weapon.

Instead of nerfing this weapon (I'm sure it will happen), it would be really good to transfer some of the condi damage into strike damage side, so we can have an actual hybrid weapon.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Carried by cartwheel (spear 3) and on demand block.  

In pvp I don't intend to use this as a damaging weapon, but I will certainly use it for utility. 

 

[Lightsbane.9012]

i think the spear needs more than one gap closer.  mantis strike chain is incredibly hard to land, as some have already said, which is a shame because it deals solid damage.

[youngarr.2073]

I don't think the stealth attack is inflicting bleed...

Edited Friday at 09:32 PM by youngarr.2073

[nopoet.2960]

Turns out that even dodging can throw off your ability to land the chain attacks.  I wonder if Anet could add time to the attack stage you are on when you dodge.  We wouldn't need much maybe a sec/ sec & a half to get back in position.  

Also, did anyone else notice that the visuals for the flip over a little slow.  It seems like the skills are actually available before the icon flips.  I thought we couldn't run out of ini but it turns out I just wasn's smashing the skills fast enough.

Finally, just wanted to share with anyone who hasn't tried it, the the stealth attack plus Leeching Venoms is awesome. 

[Nero.7369]

Spam 3 without hitting anyone for crazy mobility

Spam 4 For CC

A block on demand against single hit with high damage seems strong as well.

2-> 2 -> 2 for condi and immob

2 -> 2 -> 3 for condi then invis -> stealth attack

spam 3 -> 4 -> 2 -> 2 for gab closing followed by condi and immob

Alternatively ending up on skill 5 as finisher for a block seems to be good as well

Not really much power damage to be used as power weapon.

I think the combo system here is really interesting, but they reset way to quickly. And doesnt feel to much rewarding.

Improve that and i'd like to see similar systems on other weapons. and outside of thief since i dont really play thief. I was excited to try it because it breaks up with this spam a button system on thief. And it seems to be really interesting and designed in a way that it rewards carefully placing and actually hitting with it. but in the end i think it can be rewarding to spam 3 or 4 in some situations. So again garbage design imo. But that's just thief design i overall dislike. 

Generally the weapon isn't really impactful yet and underwhelming from the damage persepective. (At least in WvW) but i am not a thief expert so dont take this to seriously.  Tho combo systems like this have a really good potential to be really interesting.

MOST IMPORTANT:

What is the role of this weapon that is not fulfilled by another weapon / weapon set? I think this weapon doesnt give any additional value to the thief. 

Edited Saturday at 10:36 AM by Nero.7369

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

It's nice to have a weapon where all the skills not only complement one another. But also have low initiative costs that allows me to keep up with other players. It's a weapon that allows me to pressure people and rewards me for actually using my skills, rather than punishes me for using them with high costs that locks me out of everything else.

The biggest thing I like, is that the init costs are so low that I do not feel required to use the Trickery Line, and can operate just fine without it. Freeing up room for other trait lines.

This really feels like a weapon that compliments thief. It's a dueling weapon. And one that offers thief a staggering amount of options for a very aggressive play style. So I am impressed.

 

I've done some pretty twitchy and janky things that allowed me to win duels I normally would never take.

 

Using the first stage of three as a disengage to avoid being bursted by a face roll  by detergenting and flying off into a direction. Use the 4 skill for a ranged poke, and then start the combo while using steal to re-engage a player who probably wasn't expecting me to jump right back onto them. That reengage happening just as 4 hits

 

My wishes for the weapon is that I hope the charr animations become more graceful rather than just some lunk. And that the weapons init STAYS where it is at.

Edited Saturday at 01:25 AM by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[Logan.3840]

Wanted to say this is my favorite set of new Spear skills, appreciate all the work that went into this! 🙂

The skills had a really nice flow to them and gave a lot of utility and options for different scenarios. & Overall felt really fun to play.

One small note is that Skill 5 animation looked a little weird when I cast it while moving.

[Fueki.4753]

I liked the auto-attack and the two attack chains. I'm not a fan of Stealth, but it being locked behind the second chain is fine to me.

I don't like Distracting Throw. To me, the 0,5 seconds cast time felt a bit slow to interrupt things. 600 range also means, it's not great to use as a ranged ability.

Shadow Veil is ok to me. If it means Thief gets to stay longer in combat needs to run away less, I like it.

Edited Saturday at 08:47 AM by Fueki.4753

[Aalter.2950]

Cool weapon design!

My first issue is that the weapon seems inherently at a disadvantage for PvP, as you can only enable Follow-up attacks and Finisher attacks by striking an enemy with the previous attack. With the amount of evasion, Blind, etc. in PvP this means that very often you will only be able to land the Lead attack unless you stay in combat skirmishing with enemies for longer. That doesn't work well with Thief's hit-and-run playstyle, as staying means foregoing your primary form of survival - avoiding attacks in the first place. Tradeoffs are good in design, but the kit just doesn't work on a profession that has very few options for defensive skills in combat (blocks, damage reduction, cleanse, healing). Shadow Veil does help with this, but it costs initiative.

My recommendation to resolve this would be to change the requirement from "Striking an enemy with a..." to "Using a... in combat" because even when an attack is evaded or misses, you can still move through the chain. You still won't be able to pre-stack to Finishers out of combat and you still must spend initiative to build to them in combat, so there's no benefit to not trying to land them (other than avoiding attacks by being out of range but still being in combat). It will also prevent the use of Unsuspecting Strike as a spammable kiting/chasing skill in combat (out of combat it can still be used for mobility, which is probably fine.)

Ashen Assault has a similar issue; if enemies avoid just the final attack, they will receive no conditions. It's rare that you can hit someone with a full channel of a 1.5s cast attack in PvP, as Fist Flurry (only 1s) can attest.

I'd suggest moving the conditions to the first strike instead of the last, or splitting them up so that the Bleeding is inflicted on the first strike and Poison on the final. It may also be fair to reduce the channel time to 1s to bring it in line with other similar skills and make it more reliable to land, as stealth attacks should be bursty even for condition builds.

Lastly, I think this weapon raises an issue that has been hiding for many years: the Deadly Ambition trait. The poison only procs from Dual attacks, which gives 2H weapons a disadvantage for condition-based builds. It hasn't been a problem in the past because, well...there haven't been any 2H weapons for condition builds. Shortbow is the closest thing, but it isn't remotely close to the condition damage inflicted by 1H weapon sets.

I suggest helping close this gap by reworking Deadly Ambition to inflict Poison on Weapon Skill 3, not on Dual attacks.

All-around, the weapon is really cool and feels quite fun to play! In PvE it feels powerful and has great utility. For PvP, it's close to being a viable option but just needs some tweaks here and there to bring it up to par. Thanks for all your hard work on these weapons - it's obvious a huge amount of time and attention to detail was put into them and we really appreciate it! ❤️

[hitman.6804]

Okay, that spear on thief as a condi isn't bad but a few thing should be address, (Played it in WvW):

- 4th skill Distracting Throw, kinda awkward to use, due to need to be use after the finishing a combo to get that distracting throw buff, and i can see a lot of people abusing it due to that 1s daze over and over if they don't have anything to protect themselves,

-1st skill Barbed Skill and Ashen Assasult, the normal attack feels really low and a bit slow, it should either do a bit more damage but it felt like I was hitting a wet noodle on a paper plate, the Stealth Skill hit is alright but super easy to interrupted with your own weapon skills rather or just by hitting 1 again compare to other weapons they don't have that issue.

- 3rd skill Unsuspecting Strike, Not going to like this one is pretty funny, you can easily get out of combat just by spamming it if your not targeting anyone, and its not that bad as a engaging into combat with Steal or Infiltrator Signet.

- 3rd skill Vampiric Slash, the skill is not bad, you get life steal and you get more if you hit it someone with Vulnerable debuff, i can see this a good move on power but on condi, not so much beside the steal healing.

- 3rd skill Shattering Assault, I actually like is this one, you can get to stealth with little initiative, and being able to remove boon is not that bad even when they are weakened.

- 2nd Skill Mantis Sting, that skill should more damage with that bleeding.

- 2nd Skill Entangling Asp, This move is pretty decent I don't mind it one.

- 2nd Skill Falling Spider, This move is great follow up with immobilize and other control effect. 

- 5th Skill Shadow Veil, I'm not a huge fan of this skill due to the fact you can only block once that includes when someone hits you at range ,and if you get it as a combo finisher thing like what they did to the 4th skill, you can an 1 extra block with the heals like what?! compare to warrior 5th skill on sword when they get hit at range it blocks everything, so it makes this completely useless unless you manage to get that heal block but it wouldn't matter when a Willbender decide to a mulitihit move that kind of destroys your health. and also doesn't help if you poison and the healing doesn't come out at all.

- The Lead Attack and Finisher Mechanic, the lead attack is pretty descend, they tell you use that move and move on to the next skill that available, but the finisher doesn't let you know if you want to use your stealth skill after or using 4, 5 skills.

Changes I would make or add (Those is my Opinion of What (Anet) should change within the spear skill):

- In my honesty I try to play power on this to see how it is and the damage is way to low, I would love to see how well this would play out if this was a power weapon rather a condi weapon but that stream that showcase the spear weapon on other class did say they would increase the power damage so I hope you guys would do that.

- The normal 1 skill just increase need a increase damage (bleeding) and increase the speed of the skill when using and for the Stealth attack, that shouldn't be interrupted by your normal 1 skill. same goes with Mantis Sting that should be increase.

-5th skill That should be completely change to just Incoming blocking for 1.5s and if you get that combo finisher, that should be with healing per hit, and to make it fair, increase the initiative to 5 or 6 when using it so people don't abuse it willy nilly.

- The lead attack and finisher mechanic, The lead attack is fine that one we know how many combo that we did but for finisher we should have something to let us know what and when to use stealth skill, 4th and 5th skill like animation aura or a buff Indicator or something that would help us.

beside that, that's pretty much it of what I have to say.
thanks for reading :D