THIEF :D

[cryorion.9532]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

The mobility is tuned to everything else. If you need a crutch, just say so. The mobility is the main thing that keeps me up in zerg fights, but it still struggles. You'll try to claim that that's different from 1v1 or small scale, but it carries over. If the mobility was overtuned, then you'd see squads filled with thieves, because people here like to claim that there's all that mobility on top of massive damage, so thieves would be unstoppable. You need to review the wacky stuff you're saying because all of the complaints in these threads don't add up in reality. 

So if mobility keeps you alive when fighting a lot of enemies (zerg fight), how would such design downscale to smaller fights then, hmm?

[Johje Holan.4607]

Thief, and stealth,  has been a a problem since launch. It ain’t going to change. 

[kash.9213]

19 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

So if mobility keeps you alive when fighting a lot of enemies (zerg fight), how would such design downscale to smaller fights then, hmm?

Ignoring the part where I said it still struggles, but that's what's going to keep me alive in blobs above stealth or any passive mitigation. If mobility and damage were as overturned as people like you claim, then there would be squads built around that and you wouldn't hear people crying about boon balls. A boon ball wouldn't be able to sustain against the heights you're claiming. They would have to put everything into even just landing any one thing, and the overturned damage would clean up like a quarter of their squad during the attempt. Those overturned thieves would have a less complicated composition to keep from scrambling. 

Mobility is what allows me to mitigate a lot of passive damage and have a chance to avoid direct damage, but it's not going to be enough under squad focus. Now scale that down to group sizes that don't have to maintain that kind of composition and can have more and more dynamic answers. 

Edited July 3 by kash.9213

[Heibi.4251]

Don't see a nerf coming in on thieves. They are ANET's favorites. As an example, we had a guildie long ago who was being attacked by a thief and trouncing it over and over on her dagger ele. Turned out it was an ANET dev attacking. The dev asked what build she was running to defeat them. The very next patch, her exact build was nerfed. Makes you wonder.

Edited July 3 by Heibi.4251

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

10 hours ago, Heibi.4251 said:

Don't see a nerf coming in on thieves. They are ANET's favorites. As an example, we had a guildie long ago who was being attacked by a thief and trouncing it over and over on her dagger ele. Turned out it was an ANET dev attacking. The dev asked what build she was running to defeat them. The very next patch, her exact build was nerfed. Makes you wonder.

If this isn't satire I'd love to see the video evidence and patch notes in a "curb your..." meme format. 😂

[Heibi.4251]

4 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

If this isn't satire I'd love to see the video evidence and patch notes in a "curb your..." meme format. 😂

Sorry to spoil your denial thoughts, but it happened years ago, even before multiserver links. They weren't ego filming themselves fighting in wvw. They were simply enjoying the game at the time. But it did happen.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

49 minutes ago, Heibi.4251 said:

Sorry to spoil your denial thoughts, but it happened years ago, even before multiserver links. They weren't ego filming themselves fighting in wvw. They were simply enjoying the game at the time. But it did happen.

I was being sincere.

• Footage of your guildmate beating a dev, just like any other montage
• Zoom on the conversation where they ask them how they beat them and the guildmate sharing the build
• Cut to patch notes where the whole build is nerfed, curb your enthusiasm music plays

How is this not peak funny? Maybe I have consumed too much brain rot content?

[Zekent.3652]

Stealth spam is fine

-A guy that spam stealth

[manu.7539]

"do you really think you are going to hide from me?" Kind of thoughts I get when I fight a thief, 2 sec later I'm dead😕

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Honestly, after playing WvW for years now, I've become convinced that all the untouchable/invulnerable thieves in full glass gear are just hackers.  I've played thief for years, and I've fought thieves for years, and some of them are displaying abilities that are just outright impossible for any reasonable setup.

There's a good chance that when that thief immediately popped into stealth again, what they really did was teleport behind an object or very far away.  On our side it looks like the thief is popping in and out of stealth, but that is because the way Anet implemented stealth and teleports in this game makes it really easy to hide cheating tools.  There's no way to tell if someone is using a legitimate skill teleport behind a rock, or they're injecting code.  

[Junkpile.7439]

Some thiefs backstab me every time while i am in stealth. I highly doubt that game have so much desync that same thiefs always see me while i still have stealth left.

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Some thiefs backstab me every time while i am in stealth. I highly doubt that game have so much desync that same thiefs always see me while i still have stealth left.

you do not need to see someone to hit them with a backstab (skill does not require a target), some people just move very predictably and so can be hit by people with some object permanence.

i am fairly certain that the servers will not give position information of invisible opponents to the client and that is why the marked effect before the reveal was added to it would bug out with stealth use and why people with slow connection might take some time to see the opponent after they come out of stealth.
 

[kash.9213]

10 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Some thiefs backstab me every time while i am in stealth. I highly doubt that game have so much desync that same thiefs always see me while i still have stealth left.

You might still try to use topography and line of site for as long as you can. When I'm guarding our siege users, I usually scope out the horizon and see stealth users plotting. Those Backstab users you're running into might be watching your body language and reading your trajectory when you think they're not and sometimes Stealth skill signs working their way in, and Fields can give away some of your train of thought. 

I catch Stealth setups sometimes with a Cloak and Dagger cleave around our siege and some Control like my Wells that can Interrupt isn't on the longest cooldown. 

Edited July 9 by kash.9213

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 7/3/2024 at 7:50 AM, chripsy.1027 said:

That is the most game breaking BS I have ever heard..... The devs are on actual crack.

And while walls no longer work, siege does.  So, you can just juggle your stealth skills and C&D on siege/players to avoid being visi.

[Zekent.3652]

WvW Willbender is really strong but at least i can see that class doing things, have some interaction, meanwhile with thief it feels like the only player having an interaction is just thief while in stealth lol

 

[igmolicious.5986]

I've been playing thief pretty regularly for the last couple months, and I can honestly say that I stand by my belief that stealth needs some sort of drawback. If I don't play overly aggressively not only can I win most fights (rangers can still be an issue, and obvs fighting people that are very experienced while I am still relatively unexperienced on thief can sometimes go sideways -- especially in cramped areas) but I can also escape things I couldn't escape on my most played professions even with my complete lack of experience on thief. Escaping zergs is simple if I'm not trying to fight back, escaping a roaming fight that is going bad is also almost always a given, and the being able to run glass cannon stats while doing it is the wildest part. I honestly see the appeal, but being able to pull things like that off with virtually no skill on my part just underlines that the stealth mechanic is probably at least a little broken. While I still play my ele a lot, I've been playing more and more thief because it has better performance as our WvW matchups have become more and more outnumbered.

Edited July 10 by igmolicious.5986

[oatsnjuices.1698]

Everyone who doesn't roam wants thief gone. but the result will be no real solo roaming anywhere but the emptiest bl., the roamer will get ganked by 2-5 people easily. Many guilds employ thieves to help them in a fight, without them it would be a snoozefest of who has the most defense in their party, this is where havoc squads exist. To me, the most fun killing specs in the game are the unkillable tanks that stalemate fights, or outright prevents them. Without fast moving specs, all camps will remain t3 unless a zerg or a group of 4 or more take it. I think the way things are is fine, I am a cloak and dagger thief player who is hard countered by stealth thieves, bladesworn, and tank willbenders, tank revenants, fresh air elementalists, and unkillables that give their group every boon in the game. High burst rangers can drive me down with a well placed burst. If you dont want your team to die, or want to be immune and kill a thief or two, play one of those or simply get on something that cant be killed ie tanks like staff warrior, aura ele, vindicator and heal and boon them. The fight will be one sided or stalemated. Thieves are just content that you wish for when they are not there and when the towers are full of people wishing for a tag.

Edited July 11 by oatsnjuices.1698

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

6 hours ago, oatsnjuices.1698 said:

Everyone who doesn't roam wants thief gone. but the result will be no real solo roaming anywhere but the emptiest bl., the roamer will get ganked by 2-5 people easily. Many guilds employ thieves to help them in a fight, without them it would be a snoozefest of who has the most defense in their party, this is where havoc squads exist. To me, the most fun killing specs in the game are the unkillable tanks that stalemate fights, or outright prevents them. Without fast moving specs, all camps will remain t3 unless a zerg or a group of 4 or more take it. I think the way things are is fine, I am a cloak and dagger thief player who is hard countered by stealth thieves, bladesworn, and tank willbenders, tank revenants, fresh air elementalists, and unkillables that give their group every boon in the game. High burst rangers can drive me down with a well placed burst. If you dont want your team to die, or want to be immune and kill a thief or two, play one of those or simply get on something that cant be killed ie tanks like staff warrior, aura ele, vindicator and heal and boon them. The fight will be one sided or stalemated. Thieves are just content that you wish for when they are not there and when the towers are full of people wishing for a tag.

I don't think anyone wants thief gone, just a balanced stealth, imo non stackable stealth and 3sec reveal whether you attack or not.

This "no thieves no roam" is bs. I only roam (not on thief), cap T3 camps and towers alone and never needed a thief bodyguard or whatever.

If anything thieves are the ones ruining roaming because of that garbage gameplay of resetting the fight at will until they score a kill.

[CafPow.1542]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I don't think anyone wants thief gone, just a balanced stealth, imo non stackable stealth and 3sec reveal whether you attack or not.

This "no thieves no roam" is bs. I only roam (not on thief), cap T3 camps and towers alone and never needed a thief bodyguard or whatever.

If anything thieves are the ones ruining roaming because of that garbage gameplay of resetting the fight at will until they score a kill.

Yeah.

infact i have easier time killing t3 camps with for example my tempest or my reaper than thief. Forget alone the ebg camps with additional mobs (ogers, communist mules or pepes).

dunno where this thesis cones from that thief is „the guy“ who can do that lol.

and the last paragraph is even more true kinda, and same foes for willbenders to some extent. I just try to not fight them and go away cause it’s pointles. Now dodging a fight is kinda the exact opposite of what roaming should be.

[KrHome.1920]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Yeah.

infact i have easier time killing t3 camps with for example my tempest or my reaper than thief. Forget alone the ebg camps with additional mobs (ogers, communist mules or pepes).

dunno where this thesis cones from that thief is „the guy“ who can do that lol.

and the last paragraph is even more true kinda, and same foes for willbenders to some extent. I just try to not fight them and go away cause it’s pointles. Now dodging a fight is kinda the exact opposite of what roaming should be.

Thief has the tools (weapons and skills) to do lots of AOE and clear camps quickly. The thing is, that if you build such a thief, then you can't pick all the shiny stealth and reset stuff a roaming thief would pick to "try again" all day.

And that's the point. I have no issue with high mobility or stealth. But the thief class is a mismatch of reset potential and kill potential for like forever now.

If you can reset every single fight against every single encounter without a sweat then your drawback should be wet noodle damage and every encounter that can't kill you (even if you are bronze and he is legendary level) he should be able to outsustain you. I have 3000 hours on teef. This fact (endless resets basically with a button press while still being able to win 80% of my encounters) made me drop the class. It became too dumb eventually.

[CafPow.1542]

5 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Thief has the tools (weapons and skills) to do lots of AOE and clear camps quickly. The thing is, that if you build such a thief, then you can't pick all the shiny stealth and reset stuff a roaming thief would pick to "try again" all day.

See… okay so either i can clear camps or i can do the teef-thing roaming.

i main reaper and tempest and i need only 1 build to do everything so i don’t agree with „teef numba 1 roamy“.

it is awesome with all the stealth and mobility for ganking tho, sure.

[Santo.2419]

If they only made an already-in-game counter more usable - Target Painter with a better UI system for using it.

Having to go into your inventory and have it take up half your screen, find it, then click it and then look to what happening outside of your bag with no other skills available. Good chance you are already half dead and you no longer even know where the enemy is.

These stealth counters need a button (and storage) like the novelty stuff so we can hotkey. So damned clunky to use.

 

While we are on the subject of this kind of UI (and not to derail) but also consider having the ability to have siege store in our storage that we can draw from. Siege+trick+traps be taking up a quarter or more of my bags space!

 

 

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:36 AM, igmolicious.5986 said:

I've been playing thief pretty regularly for the last couple months, and I can honestly say that I stand by my belief that stealth needs some sort of drawback. If I don't play overly aggressively not only can I win most fights (rangers can still be an issue, and obvs fighting people that are very experienced while I am still relatively unexperienced on thief can sometimes go sideways -- especially in cramped areas) but I can also escape things I couldn't escape on my most played professions even with my complete lack of experience on thief. Escaping zergs is simple if I'm not trying to fight back, escaping a roaming fight that is going bad is also almost always a given, and the being able to run glass cannon stats while doing it is the wildest part. I honestly see the appeal, but being able to pull things like that off with virtually no skill on my part just underlines that the stealth mechanic is probably at least a little broken. While I still play my ele a lot, I've been playing more and more thief because it has better performance as our WvW matchups have become more and more outnumbered.

Even with the state of the game now thief is still the only class that is low risk high reward.  You can make more mistakes, especially daredevil, and still just safely exit the fight than any other class/spec.  The mobility creep has cut into that some, but thief is still the top of the food chain by a considerable margin when played well, most of the time regardless of the enemy skill level.

[kash.9213]

13 hours ago, Santo.2419 said:

If they only made an already-in-game counter more usable - Target Painter with a better UI system for using it.

Having to go into your inventory and have it take up half your screen, find it, then click it and then look to what happening outside of your bag with no other skills available. Good chance you are already half dead and you no longer even know where the enemy is.

These stealth counters need a button (and storage) like the novelty stuff so we can hotkey. So damned clunky to use.

 

While we are on the subject of this kind of UI (and not to derail) but also consider having the ability to have siege store in our storage that we can draw from. Siege+trick+traps be taking up a quarter or more of my bags space!

 

 

I think the build options that compound the problem builds just need to be adjusted or changed to something that more thematically matches the trait line or Elite. Something like Silent Scope really should have been a trait that allows the DE to post up more securely when Kneeling and do some Rifle work (instead of doing flips with a whole kitten Rifle for the easiest Stealth option) and it's only a few steps from that stance to get a reliable stealth and that procedure even includes a movement skill, but a change could also include a very short Stealth for the Stealth Attack that keeps you still and Kneeling until stealth breaks or you take you're Stealth Attack shot. Having to use a non build item is time away from the opponents offense and mitigation of attacks. 

On the flip side, that extra item easily used by people in larger groups and blobs all over would feel kind of excessive against a thief template that uses like one source of stealth staggered out for group support like maintaining Barrier. 

Edited July 12 by kash.9213

[DivineDreaming.7206]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:35 PM, Johje Holan.4607 said:

Thief, and stealth,  has been a a problem since launch. It ain’t going to change. 

not really, stealth was never a issue when it had counter-play and all their builds were melee....it became a problem when you could shoot people from 1200 range and have perma stealth, perma 900-1200 mobility.

thief was easier to kill and the thief had to actually be good then.

Now with power creep its just stupid broken, deadeye is the real issue, your standard d/p classic dd thief is not really a issue in wvw. It's deadeye rifle with sword/dagger on swap.