In dev's defense, they did follow users request for balance

[flyingplanet.6912]

I don't know if any of you remember but there were trends where "nerf requests" to builds from certain users have been accepted in subsequent balance patches. That's how mirage dodge became halved, scrappers gyro barriers/stealth are short and stationary, Ele staff and ranger longbow damage nerf etcetc. 2021 feb global damage nerf patch was also result of users flooding the forums with complaints about high damage. So what's the result? Even more complaints and threads asking for more nerfs.
Sometimes I feel like these nerf requests should be taken with a grain of salt. Honestly, some of the most fun times I remember were when Scourge was dominating WvW. It was tough, but other builds were still strong and had their own unique roles. It made the game interesting and diverse.

[Silinsar.6298]

The WvW community isn't of one mind - if you have enough players any change might have been requested by one or more players at some point. It's ANet's job to implement changes that benefit the game mode as a whole, and limit the negative effects of changes intended to improve some playstyles have on the other ones.

Some changes also just seem like they were never fully implemented - e.g. the damage nerf patch came along with a nerf to heal skill CDs across the board (one would assume it was meant to increase the time to kill a bit, but not make fights stall out more). But other forms of sustain (any avoidance/reduction through weapons / utilities / traits etc.) overall were barely touched.

[oatsnjuices.1698]

Some of the changes are not that great. For roaming, there are so many unkillables. It is not fun to play them and they counter any form of small scale, heals trump damage. Even in boon balls, whoever has the most heals generally win. No amount of experience changes that. The players that complain about small scale fighting or ganking are the same players that without it would complain there is no tag and would otherwise be inside a keep or tower wishing something would happen. The small scale guys and roamers are the content during that time, something they do not need a tag to fight. It is frustrating to some, but even being in a zerg that gets wiped over and over is frustrating. The only difference is sometimes there is someone that tells them what their settings should be or what they should play, roamers give them the opportunity to think for themselves.

Now the keeps cant be tapped, so the towers nearest the keeps are all t3 due to anyone being able to quickly get to the keep and build seige to defend with much less supply. There are only 7 towers in ebg that are conquerable during prime unless the guild playing has enough sustain to take them. Ebg has become smaller due to these changes. Also, it seems there is a push to turn this competative game mode to more of a pve atmosphere, no one dies unless it is by a zerg. There will always be a small minority that doesnt mind competing with glassier builds, but really they are only killing new players or need to gank with 2 or more anything wearing celestial or tankier, which is more than half the players. What would be better than the nerfs to the game mode as a whole, is simply give everyone warclaws with both dodges as soon as they get into ebg to use in ebg, and make them have to earn it to use it outside of wvw. As for the ones who complain about 1v1 damage, they should just have a build that is meant to get them where they are going. If im on berzerker trying to get to my team and they are deep in hostile territory, I temporarily select something that can run, and that has a little bit of teeth to get me there. I dont slot super heals and hope they dont have the dps and manpower to drive me down, surviving by winning should be part of the learning curve.

Edited July 26 by oatsnjuices.1698

[joneirikb.7506]

"Careful what you ask, you may just get it."

Most players looks at very surface layers of design and balance, and then make requests/demands on that. They will almost never try to understand why something is designed the way it is. So obviously most player requests/demands tend to be pretty bad. So the devs have to look through all that (mostly bad) feedback, try to sort through to find either "good feedback" or more commonly "repeating patterns" of complaints, and then try to adjust those. Like the example of the feb2020 patch, where a very large part of the community said the damage was too high, highly repeated pattern, and they did something about it. Didn't turn out perfect, but I'm still glad I at least get to see HOW I die nowadays.

“SWG is the game where I learned players KNOW what they hate but only THINK they know what they want” -Corwyn Kalenda, SWG

In general, if you add what users request/demand just as they ask for it, then you'll end up making players like the game less. Sounds contradicting, but that's what has usually happened in the past. Players will almost always ask for things to be tailored a bit "too much" tailored for themselves, a bit too easy, and thus they end up losing whatever feeling of satisfaction or accomplishment or challenge that drew them to the game. So devs have to pay attention to what players want, and then give them "some" of that, but not all, or they'll end up losing more players.

[Riba.3271]

Issues of WvW are more systematic than combat balance. This includes siege, wall hp, upgrading, matchmaking, server system, scoring and many others. If I have to say something about meta... There has never been meta where smaller groups have been as hopeless about dealing with larger groups.

[Sheff.4851]

3 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Issues of WvW are more systematic than combat balance. This includes siege, wall hp, upgrading, matchmaking, server system, scoring and many others. If I have to say something about meta... There has never been meta where smaller groups have been as hopeless about dealing with larger groups.

These have been systematic issues for a long time. It's probably why, in the last year, we've seen changes to siege, wall HP, matchmaking, server system, and scoring, when these are mechanics that have gone largely untouched for years, as players slowly bleed off from the game. They're fundamental problems with the game mode that are finally getting a balance pass.

[XenesisII.1540]

So when players cried to nerf mirage dodge, the devs took that literally and nerfed the actual dodge in half, instead of nerfing the mirage cloak which was attached to the dodge and the actual problem. Then later thought that mechanic was so cool they built an entire new spec on it, only to finally figure out six months later how lame it actually was.

Ok cool gotcha.

Always the players fault, not the people in charge of deciding and making changes. Thanks for your one sided view.

Edited July 26 by XenesisII.1540

[Deniara Devious.3948]

There has been for 11+ years complaint how stealth is abused in WvWvW, yet nothing done about it. I still don't understand why revealed in only 3 seconds in WvWvW, but 4 seconds in pvp, even though in big open maps stealth is far more powerful in WvWvW. Obviously revelated should be 4 seconds in WvWvW and stealth should be capped to max 8-10 seconds, meaning no permanent stealth for any profession.

Fighting against excessive amount of evades, mobility., stealth or teleports is simply not fun. The other side can just reset the fight and soon try again. Creating such one sided game experiences (one side has fun, the other side doesn't) is not good game design.

There has been countless of threads of requests to nerf Willbenders or other overperforming elite specs. What did Arenanet do? It just keeps buffing guardian, even though guardian has always been the most popular choice.

There has been countless of threads to nerf the boon ball meta for years. Nothing done. Even more boon spam via the elite specs.

The scoring is done so that there is no incentive to attack the strongest side, so there two stronger sides often both double team against the weakest one, creating bad game experience to the outnumbered side.

So maybe Arenanet has been listening to the wrong people?

Ayna 

PS. I have never asked for new maps (instead to asked to remove the Desert bl from rotation) nor alliance. I just want better balance and existing maps to be fixed and get a nice big lake + central island (without any guild claim/guild aura) instead of the ugly ruins area (where almost nobody plays).

 

[Chaba.5410]

Players complained for years about teams being able to treb garrison from the safety of northwest and northeast towers on alpine.  What was Anet's solution to that player complaint?  They placed the northern towers on desert into the hinterlands where there's no reason to go outside of getting PPT.  Now players complain about how the northern towers on desert have no tactical value.

Good job, playerbase.  "Careful what you ask, you may just get it."

Edited July 26 by Chaba.5410

[Sheff.4851]

A good reminder that there's a lot of different people in WvW, who like a lot of different things, and no solution is going to make everyone happy. It's not a personal slight if ArenaNet doesn't listen to your feedback specifically.

[Reztek.7805]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Players complained for years about teams being able to treb garrison from the safety of northwest and northeast towers on alpine.  What was Anet's solution to that player complaint?  They placed the northern towers on desert into the hinterlands where there's no reason to go outside of getting PPT.

Ummm? No? Some Players wanted something new and a BIGGER map at that time. So having more space between objectives is the consequence of a bigger map. And btw. Anet wouldn't agree to "hinterlands" too: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/essential-elements-of-the-new-borderlands/

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Now players complain about how the northern towers on desert have no tactical value.

You mean the one person who wrote something about the desert borderlands lately? Wow.

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Good job, playerbase.

Nice gaslighting attempt.

[Chaba.5410]

23 minutes ago, Reztek.7805 said:

Ummm? No? Some Players wanted something new and a BIGGER map at that time. So having more space between objectives is the consequence of a bigger map. And btw. Anet wouldn't agree to "hinterlands" too: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/essential-elements-of-the-new-borderlands/

Go re-read the part about "more strategic layout".  That area control was the replacement for the strategic value of the alpine northern towers, which then got removed because it was so bad too.

[XenesisII.1540]

35 minutes ago, Reztek.7805 said:

You mean the one person who wrote something about the desert borderlands lately? Wow.

Huh they talking about me again? I have them blocked for a while now.

The north dbl towers have no value other than being a place to take for weeklies.

🤭🤷‍♂️

[Chaba.5410]

36 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Huh they talking about me again? I have them blocked for a while now.

The north dbl towers have no value other than being a place to take for weeklies.

🤭🤷‍♂️

Yet agreeing with me about the northern desert towers having no value even though you didn't see what I wrote.  🫠  Thanks for your support!
 

I gotta really hand it to readers who block others because they couldn't agree to disagree. I wouldn't remove my own opportunities to respond to another. Really takes one out of the conversation.

 

Edited July 26 by Chaba.5410

[oatsnjuices.1698]

11 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Issues of WvW are more systematic than combat balance. This includes siege, wall hp, upgrading, matchmaking, server system, scoring and many others. If I have to say something about meta... There has never been meta where smaller groups have been as hopeless about dealing with larger groups.

Give damage its teeth back so those who want to do something can go smash their backline or make them suffer with combat, not the snoozefest that is the siege war and warrior tanks. Without all that booncreep of super tanks, roamers and havoc guilds that can fight back would be more desirable to alliances that would want some off hours protection. Rather than tanks that go in, recieve no penalty for dancing around in 5 dps players all while healing 2 mediocre players, and win.  

Edited July 26 by oatsnjuices.1698

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Sheff.4851 said:

A good reminder that there's a lot of different people in WvW, who like a lot of different things, and no solution is going to make everyone happy. It's not a personal slight if ArenaNet doesn't listen to your feedback specifically.

Here's an example of past player suggestions.  As you can see in hindsight, some ideas were implemented or at least the original problem was fixed in a different way and other suggestions ignored.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Some-WvW-Ideas

[Riba.3271]

8 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

11 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

Issues of WvW are more systematic than combat balance. This includes siege, wall hp, upgrading, matchmaking, server system, scoring and many others. If I have to say something about meta... There has never been meta where smaller groups have been as hopeless about dealing with larger groups.

These have been systematic issues for a long time. It's probably why, in the last year, we've seen changes to siege, wall HP, matchmaking, server system, and scoring, when these are mechanics that have gone largely untouched for years, as players slowly bleed off from the game. They're fundamental problems with the game mode that are finally getting a balance pass.

When one doctor does a bad prescription, another doctor shouldn't give a bad one as well but replace it with better one. Issue is that they are never fixing problems the introduced to WvW: Too fast upgrading keeps/castles, objectives losing meaningful value, Red home border still being unpopular, shield gens blocking all siege, gliding in combat, how minstrel/cele make people too tanky, and many others. All they are doing are introducing more systems that are making objectives even more meaningless.

Okay, recently they fixed boons affecting golems, but that was a nobrainer and in same patch they ruined scoring again. It was fine when they made all timezones "equal" with skirmish point system, but now they made the timezones "unequal" again. Even if there are 100 primetime players voting for the remaining 30 to lose all their belongings and hand it over to them, it doesn't mean that it is right.

Edited July 26 by Riba.3271

[Gorani.7205]

19 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Go re-read the part about "more strategic layout".  That area control was the replacement for the strategic value of the alpine northern towers, which then got removed because it was so bad too.

For context:
The "area control" wasn't bad (that's Chaba's opinion in the post). It was a set of barricades that walled of the larger paths between the keeps and that could be built by those controlling the Towers. That meant that you just could not move large forces quickly between them without breaking down the barricades. Barricades had entry portals (just like allies have at gates) but had to be taken down by siege for an enemy. It basically was tearing down a gate with melee weapons (although a bit faster) and they could be repaired.
Nowadays, those barricades would be much less of a problem, because we have the Warclaw chain pull that does siege damage.
People complained about the barricades, because they had to take the longer routes around them to get from point A to B.
What was bad (IMO) during the first iteration was the technical implementation of the "laser event", which caused massive map lags to everything and everybody. When they removed the event (which damaged enemy outer gates by 50% when successful), they removed Barricades as well (and made Fire & Air more open to get to for the attacking side (mainly to the south).

[Kozumi.5816]

2 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Gw2 balance is known to be disgrace anyway... devs deserve no defence imo when they want certain builds and gimmick to carry players.

dude you can instantly teleport out of draw distance mid fight as half the classes now

the game is a sick joke lol

  

2 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

maybe thisis the  retardness gameplay Anet always dreamed off.

Yes, boonball is in fact their vision for PvP and PvE.

Edited July 27 by Kozumi.5816

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

On 7/27/2024 at 6:50 AM, Aeolus.3615 said:

They nerfed Alot of stuff but what was making stuff OP was kept boons even got enforced which was already a problem and now with more boons and less counter to boons Anet made it even worse, game is way more carried by certain boons than ever.

This was why I was so against giving every single class all these boons. This is homogenized balance in it's truest form, nothing but a stale and stagnant gameplay that benefits no one but the most braindead of players. The same braindead idiots who think that rolling your face on the keyboard when playing ranger mace is the most fun and engaging gameplay they ever had. When the whole playstyle of the weapon set is spamming skills.

The balance team is checked out. They have been checked out even before the balance leaks that kittened everything. They're not listening, and it shows. This "WvW World Restructuring Beta" they had was nothing but a failure from the getgo. If Anet was any smart, they would shelved it a long time ago.

Edited July 30 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Santo.2419]

Ele Staff damage nerf requests came from boon balls upset people can actually damage them, just sayin.

[Kozumi.5816]

1 hour ago, Santo.2419 said:

Ele Staff damage nerf requests came from boon balls upset people can actually damage them, just sayin.

Yeah, now you can't interact with a boon ball unless you are also a boon ball.

This is why the majority are quitting WvW.  Soon, boon balls will have no "noobs" to farm for free bags, and will end up quitting as well.

This already happened with roamers.

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Santo.2419 said:

Ele Staff damage nerf requests came from boon balls upset people can actually damage them, just sayin.

Anet will obey to certain tags no matter what... sadly it is how it is, one shall not simply touch the anet love for the. perma boon balls not even structures.

 

1st change:

- Zergs need to loose perma quickness in 1st place even if affects pve heavily.

    Quickness should not a be boon just like superspeed isn't, and none of those effects should stack from different sources,  most probably the same could happen to alacrity.

2nd: change remove toughness from minstrel players supporting others with high support stats should be squishy on health or armour, a stat that as all in one for support and defence and keep it after the  nerf to all damage and heals needs to be removed or changed.

3rd change, keep an eye on boons and non boon buffs see what needs better counter design.

This 3 points is what anet never did and never cared and never will care since it is what could balance out the game, at least try to put something called gameplay sanity something that this game has been loosing every time devs pretend they  balance it.

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by Aeolus.3615