Engi is Gutted.

[N A T E.3108]

Engi is not competitive with any build. At least not from what I've seen. Holo seems to be the strongest of the engi variants, and even it plays well-below the bar in this meta... God forbid you try to play core, mech, or scrap.

"bUt NaDe sCrApPeR!" you say? Well, let me challenge you to play with it vs any equally skilled player on any other meta build and we'll see how strong you think it is afterward. I don't care if you're going to QQ about a single target getting oneshotted once every 75s (almost impossible to do to most meta classes now anyway) AND, for a scrap to even be able to do that, it has to be spec'd full glass, have nearly no defenses/stunbreaks, and waste its entire elite slot (and stealth) for a single player kill. If you have any problem catching and dispatching of that glassy lil' scrap, the blame is on you. It's one of the easiest kills in game.

Simple truth: scrap, core, and mech are virtually unplayable from a competitive standpoint, and holo is only slightly above those. 

Literally, engi is gutted.

P.S. If you get rolled by some non-meta engi veteran that knows how to counter your playstyle, that doesn't negate my argument. As I said before, "play with it vs any equally skilled player on any other meta build". 

ALIEN

[Melumi.6432]

Someone said it to me: "Scrapper is still decent; it's just that everything else around it has improved..." (This is in regard to PvP.)

I don't disagree. Scrapper can still burst you from 100 to 0, but it has become inconsistent now because most other specs have gotten stronger. Compared to launch Scrapper, enemies now have more boons, more blocks, more health, and more mobility. The risk has become too high compared to classes like Berserker, which can deal similar burst/dps while also having unblockable damage and temporary invulnerability.

Additionally, the biggest problem with Engi overall is that most damage-related builds have been funneled into using the Nade kit alongside Explosives/Firearms. You're required to go this route to do any reasonable amount of damage, which straight up cripples your survivability by limiting your ability to take other traits lines. (The recent changes regarding Boiling Point don’t cut it.) I hate the stale state of Engi, and many other mains do too. We've been calling for kit changes and a Firearms rework for ages, but it hasn't happened. Just look at how terrible Incendiary Powder is, and it's an MGM trait.

Edited July 27 by Melumi.6432
Grammar

[Flowki.7194]

Scrapper can die on the pile with all the other front loaded jump specs. Holo, no reason at all that shouldn't be viable/meta, hard to play.. Anet just suck at balance ethos.. fking gold 2 reaper/spb/wb is probably more use now than a p1 holo, go figure.

Edited July 26 by Flowki.7194

[bethekey.8314]

Engineer received heavier and faster nerfs than Vindicator despite being less impactful in the meta for less time. Even their "buff" like adding Lich to Elixir X is a nerf.

Without a second weapon, Engineer has to do more with less utility slots than every other class. Despite this, Engi Shortbow and Spear are some of the least complete weapons in the game without any hard defense built in. Shortbow is arguably a melee weapon too. This leads to Engineers who spec for damage becoming the most "glass" (1 stunbreak, low health, armor, 1 block) spec in the game without the "cannon" follow-up.

Scrapper had its elite reduced to irrelevance, its superspeed reduced by half(?), innate quickness completely removed without rebalancing, and is inherently restricted to power builds by its barrier mechanic.

Mechanist is THE joke of the PvP scene and has been for years, to the point people flame their teammates for throwing by playing it. For a full toolbelt sacrifice, it was built around a strong pet and alacrity. Due to a rune mechanic that no longer exists and a rifle spec that was never even meta, it now has neither.  Never mind that all Engineer's utilities are balanced around a secondary toolbelt skill, a core element of design that Mech completely ignores (lose access to half our stunbreak options, Medkit etc.). Oh, and it also hard nerfs itself when the pet is separate from the player, which is the entire point of a pet mechanic.

Turrets remain the most immobile, easiest to kill, and lowest damage pets in the game.

Meanwhile, Ranger is flourishing with new pets, well-rounded weapons, and plentiful stealth to the point of diehard Ranger main's asking "you sure about this"?

Most kits haven't seen success in competitive play in I don't know, 5+ years? And the one that has, Grenade kit, forces some degenerate, carpal-tunnel-inducing, trait-requiring, about-facing, snap-targeting, spam playstyle that no one enjoys and causes collateral nerfs to the rest of Engineer. What's it going to take Anet, the seventeenth adjustment to Grenades to solve everything?

Projectiles and blocks, Engineer's bread and butter offense and defense, are faced with a fresh hell of unblockables and projectile hate. Condi Reaper has what, 10/16 sec with unblockable? Ranger gets two projectile hate bubbles? Warrior can infinitely chain reflects? Virt can reflect your projectiles while invulnerable while hitting through your block with its own projectiles. Amazing.

No Engineer spec is meta relevant, and no Engineer spec but Holo has been in years. There is no surprise here; the people balancing Engineer in PvP have no clue or consistent vision.

To end on a quote from a former dev in their balance discord:

"The heavy use of kits and thus feeling of playing Core Engi with a pet instead of toolbelt was one of the chief complaints we saw most both on surveys and in feedback elsewhere, and definitely something we wanted to address. It's going to be fairly subjective, but you're the first person I've seen say they play engi because of the feel of using kits."

I don't know who you're surveying and listening to, but please, look at your track record and stop. It's embarrassing and needs to be said. Hardly anyone even plays Engineer anymore to voice criticisms and offer good feedback.

Edited July 27 by bethekey.8314

[Last Crab.6054]

23 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Engineer received heavier and faster nerfs than Vindicator despite being less impactful in the meta for less time. Even their "buff" like adding Lich to Elixir X is a nerf.

Without a second weapon, Engineer has to do more with less utility slots than every other class. Despite this, Engi Shortbow and Spear are some of the least complete weapons in the game without any hard defense built in. Shortbow is arguably a melee weapon too. This leads to Engineers who spec for damage becoming the most "glass" (1 stunbreak, low health, armor, 1 block) spec in the game without the "cannon" follow-up.

Scrapper had its elite reduced to irrelevance, its superspeed reduced by half(?), innate quickness completely removed without rebalancing, and is inherently restricted to power builds by its barrier mechanic.

Mechanist is THE joke of the PvP scene and has been for years, to the point people flame their teammates for throwing by playing it. For a full toolbelt sacrifice, it was built around a strong pet and alacrity. Due to a rune mechanic that no longer exists and a rifle spec that was never even meta, it now has neither. Oh, and it also hard nerfs itself when the pet is separate from the player, which is the entire point of a pet mechanic.

Turrets remain the most immobile, easiest to kill, and lowest damage pets in the game.

Meanwhile, Ranger is flourishing with new pets, well-rounded weapons, and plentiful stealth to the point of diehard Ranger main's asking "you sure about this"?

Most kits haven't seen success in competitive play in I don't know, 5+ years? And the one that has, Grenade kit, forces some degenerate, trait-required, about-facing, snap-targeting, spam playstyle that no one enjoys and causes collateral nerfs to the rest of Engineer. What's it going to take Anet, the seventeenth adjustment to Grenades to solve everything?

Projectiles and blocks, Engineer's bread and butter offense and defense, are faced with a fresh hell of unblockables and projectile hate. Condi Reaper has what, 10/16 sec with unblockable? Ranger gets two projectile hate bubbles? Warrior can infinitely chain reflects? Virt can reflect your projectiles while invulnerable while hitting through your block with its own projectiles. Amazing.

No Engineer spec is meta relevant, and no Engineer spec but Holo has been in years. There is no surprise here; the people balancing Engineer in PvP have no clue or consistent vision.

To end on a quote from a former dev in their balance discord:

"The heavy use of kits and thus feeling of playing Core Engi with a pet instead of toolbelt was one of the chief complaints we saw most both on surveys and in feedback elsewhere, and definitely something we wanted to address. It's going to be fairly subjective, but you're the first person I've seen say they play engi because of the feel of using kits."

I don't know who you're surveying and listening to, but please, look at your track record and stop. It's embarrassing and needs to be said. Hardly anyone even plays Engineer anymore to voice criticisms and offer good feedback.

years?

wanna be honest?

(scrapper carried many folks, Shion where you at)

[bethekey.8314]

53 minutes ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

years?

wanna be honest?

(scrapper carried many folks, Shion where you at)

Oh you're the guy who said I main holo and couldn't believe my 10 game Thief gameplay was legitimate. Had any good trolls lately?

[Myror.7521]

Meanwhile my team get demolished hard by a holo jumping in and 100 to 0 life them in around 10 seconds.

Its not bad at all but it got many very toxic mechanics*cough* blind+daze+superspeed Spam everywhere *cough*. Also i found it fair that its hard to Play since as said it can litterly kill peops in a blink of an eye and im not even joking xd

[Terrorhuz.4695]

39 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

Meanwhile my team get demolished hard by a holo jumping in and 100 to 0 life them in around 10 seconds.

Its not bad at all but it got many very toxic mechanics*cough* blind+daze+superspeed Spam everywhere *cough*. Also i found it fair that its hard to Play since as said it can litterly kill peops in a blink of an eye and im not even joking xd

Yeah, I'm not a fan of holo because of the whole explosive entrance thing. But objectively speaking, it was healthier than vindicator, yet it was gutted harder and faster.

[Swagg.9236]

Engineer was always a flavor over function mess.

[shion.2084]

15 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

years?

wanna be honest?

(scrapper carried many folks, Shion where you at)

are you saying that the truly OP nature of scrapers these days is carrying me?   Yes, the incredible 7k burst from my nades barrage once every 25 seconds or so is unparalleled by any other classes skills.  (oh to get that you have to be right on top of someone and its blocked by projectile hate). 

Seriously though, it's the only class I play so since it's the only one I know I guess it does carry me in a way.  Cause I know what buttons do what.   But scrapper is seriously underpowered these days.. all the meta power classes can do a scrapper burst without sharing its downside of poor defensives.   You got no port, no stab, no invis (it was nerfed so most folks run mortar now), you got no decent condi cleanse.    And you can do about equal damage to other folks burst.   You do have good CC, but so do many of the meta classes without the scrappers down side.  Scrappers in a pretty bad place.  It either got nerfs, or was nerfed indirectly when everyone else just got handed out better stuff.   And the final kick in the teeth is spear... it would be suicidal to run that.

Edited July 27 by shion.2084

[shion.2084]

For the record, I would like to say that I don't want scrapper Buffed.... I think it actually has the right trade-offs that should be required to output the damage it does.  Ideally everything else would be balanced around the same philosophy.  If your great at one thing, your gonna suck at others.    I think the problem isn't really scrapper is too weak, I think its other things are just too bloody power crept.

[Last Crab.6054]

15 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Oh you're the guy who said I main holo and couldn't believe my 10 game Thief gameplay was legitimate. Had any good trolls lately?

Maybe your character has been stuck in the FFA for a few years, but the inception of Woodstock as a household name came with holosmith

[Codename T.2847]

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

For the record, I would like to say that I don't want scrapper Buffed.... I think it actually has the right trade-offs that should be required to output the damage it does.  Ideally everything else would be balanced around the same philosophy.  If your great at one thing, your gonna suck at others.    I think the problem isn't really scrapper is too weak, I think its other things are just too bloody power crept.

I don't know why Anet avoids giving certain elite specs tradeoffs like the plague. xD

[Kuma.1503]

My years-long frustration with Engi balance is why I still haven't purchased any expansions after EoD. 

I'd like Holo to be the glass canon spec. 

I'd like Scrapper to be a functional bruiser / support spec. Not yet another copy paste one trick pony burst spec. 

I'd like Mech to... exist in competitive modes. Literally just make it playable idc if it's meta. 

I'd like turrets to be usable in any capacity. If their old design was toxic, make them less toxic. 

I'd like engi weapons and kits to be brought out of 2012. They've needed reworks for years. 

I could care less if other classes do what engi does better. I could care less if I need to be more skilled than my opponent to win. I'd like the class to be designed competently by someone who knows what they're doing and how the class works. 

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I'd like Mech to... exist in competitive modes. Literally just make it playable idc if it's meta. 

I'd like turrets to be usable in any capacity. If their old design was toxic, make them less toxic. 

These two specifically run into the problem with heavily AI based archetypes, imo.

At low skill levels, the AI-based class automatically wins because the robot is playing better than the actual players, and that's... kinda lame. The player winning at character select is pretty lame.
At high skill levels, they're either exploited and useless, or they're extremely strong to make up for that, in which case they're a terror to deal with.

Somehow this mistake's been made so many times in MMOs and I don't get why when GW1 nailed it ages ago.
Pets, if you don't take skills specifically for them, are just a killable damage over time in that game. They're pretty negligible, but you can take skills that give them good damage and utility and they have strengths like being able to split from the player, that kinda stuff.

The proper solution to making themes like Mechanist playable and not a balancing nightmare is to make the player be the one who controls what the pets do via skill activations. Sorta like how the Mech Fighter trait works. Build the entire spec around that kind of player control and it's much more enjoyable for players to fight as and against across all levels of play.

Anyways uhh, I'm kinda biased here but Holo spamming a bunch of instant cast damage via toolbelt skills that also made it nearly immune to condi and could blind/daze was stupid and I think that needed changed, but I'm pretty sure they could have come up with a more elegant solution that didn't just smack it outta the meta. Larger scale changes, basically.

Also the Lock On nerf lol

[Last Crab.6054]

43 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Also the Lock On nerf lol

this trait should haven't existed at all

[Arheundel.6451]

Super speed runaway grenade launching without watching into stealth plus waterblast and block x 2 plus damage reduced with passive healing...asking for buffs?.... joke thread

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Super speed

Nerfed.

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

grenade

Nerfed.

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

stealth

Nerfed.

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

block x 2

"Meta" build only ever had 1 block.

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

asking for buffs

Thread about whole of Engineer, focuses on single multi-nerfed build, can't even get it right, and dismisses the thread entirely. It's hard to believe a 4k post person can have so much to say without contributing anything to improve the game. Joke person.

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Nerfed.

Nerfed.

Nerfed.

"Meta" build only ever had 1 block.

Thread about whole of Engineer, focuses on single multi-nerfed build, can't even get it right, and dismisses the thread entirely. It's hard to believe a 4k post person can have so much to say without contributing anything to improve the game. Joke person.

If you ask guardians and necros.....their over represented professions in all game mode...are the most nerfed in the entire game. Ask any necro/guardian..they have no sustain, no dmg or mobility and nobody ever seen anybody playing either. Engi like every profession in this game has a plethora of toxic and badly designed mechanics...and engis like every other community in this game will ask for buffs without ever mentioning those toxic mechanics...actually some will state they're all been nerfed

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Scrapper does have a metric kittenton of superspeed, and enough defensives to make it work with shield and toolkit. But it's obscenely... fair. No cheat code, like CS for chrono, or FC for warriors, or ambush spam for untamed enjoyers. It's just... press button, do damage. No mechanic to actually do anything interesting.

[Kuma.1503]

11 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

 Engis like every other community in this game will ask for buffs without ever mentioning those toxic mechanics...actually some will state they're all been nerfed

Meanwhile the guy you're responding to literally 1 post ago. . .

On 7/27/2024 at 12:56 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

Grenade kit, forces some degenerate, carpal-tunnel-inducing, trait-requiring, about-facing, snap-targeting, spam playstyle that no one enjoys and causes collateral nerfs to the rest of Engineer. What's it going to take Anet, the seventeenth adjustment to Grenades to solve everything?

Meanwhile in the OP...

On 7/26/2024 at 4:33 PM, N A T E.3108 said:

"bUt NaDe sCrApPeR!" you say?

We get it. We've heard this exact complaint a thousand times. Nades are annoying. You hate it. We hate that the entire class has to be nerfed around it. No one is happy here. Pretending that this issue hasn't been already been brought up (in the same thread no less) isn't helping the issue. 

 

Edited July 28 by Kuma.1503

[Sahne.6950]

Didnt read the whole Thread....  just wanted to say:

Currently every iteration of Engineer is trash.

I really wish they would buff Scrapper and Holo, altho i believe that Holo should get a good look at, in terms of "are those mechanics healthy"     

Looking at you, explosive entrance. 👀

[shion.2084]

15 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Meanwhile the guy you're responding to literally 1 post ago. . .

Meanwhile in the OP...

We get it. We've heard this exact complaint a thousand times. Nades are annoying. You hate it. We hate that the entire class has to be nerfed around it. No one is happy here. Pretending that this issue hasn't been already been brought up (in the same thread no less) isn't helping the issue. 

 

They should take the snap targeting off of nades.   Make people click an area to attack.  I always find the snap targeting cheese.

[ccccc.4963]

15 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Pretending that this issue hasn't been already been brought up

Lost in translation probably 😜

[thief.7429]

On 7/26/2024 at 5:57 PM, Melumi.6432 said:

Someone said it to me: "Scrapper is still decent; it's just that everything else around it has improved..." (This is in regard to PvP.)

this line has been used so many time for so many different classes that isn't necro, guard, or ranger over these last few years.