There is no counter to boonball meta due to the nerf to boon removal skills.

[Kulvar.1239]

Arrow Cart Mastery could get a new tier that add "Remove boon: 1" to the arrow carts 2nd or 3rd skill.

[Chaos God.1639]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I… am not sure you’ve ever played WvW after making such a statement.

i'm just not complaining about what you can "boonball". the game should be balanced for everybody and not just the boonball complainers.

it looks like the boonball complainers expect everybody else to just agree with whatever they are saying...

[Jski.6180]

As long as the classes can self support and support other at the same time there will be an imbalance. So classes like gurd being able to self stab and support stab at the same time your going to have an issues (also an issues with soloish version getting to much stab up time being borderline unccable.)

The counter to boon ball meta is cc not boon strip though boon strip helps you cc ppl. The ability to eat a tick of pulsing aoe dmg and being able to move out of the effect and not taking consistently dmg but only a small bit of dmg lets ppl live though dmg that should be very punishing to big groups. So ccing ppl in an MS should be THE counter to boon ball but things like stab reistectes swiftness super speed and even leaps cause such big and slow hitting skills not work well even though they "show" high dmg they are not realy doing any thing effective.

We may need unconterable soft cc that cant be cleared OR reblance pAoE skills to do more dmg on there cast and as soon as they are cast. If you cast your dmg skills well they should down ppl but if ppl simply walk into it they should not want to take more then 2-3 ticks. Maybe even wells or pAoE boon strip effects should front load there cc / strips so things like we will have effects that will strip 3 or so boons on its cast but less ticks after that. Maybe even having doble cc on pulsing cc so gravitly well would doble cc at the start of its being full cast.

Just some ideals off the top of my head.

[coro.3176]

4 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

We may need unconterable soft cc that cant be cleared

No need to add new things. Just fix the old ones. We *have* soft CC in the form of conditions (cripple, chill, immob). It just doesn't work because it is cleansed instantly? Why? Same reason that everyone has every boon all the time: Support shares too much value with party members. Remove shared cleanse, and suddenly soft CC actually works again. As a bonus, condition damage actually works again too instead of only doing 1 tick before it's insta-cleansed or converted.

[Kozumi.5816]

1 hour ago, coro.3176 said:

As a bonus, condition damage actually works again too instead of only doing 1 tick before it's insta-cleansed or converted.

If it ticks once you're generally dead anyways, it has to be cleansed before it can even tick once.

Pretty good pvp.

[Cyninja.2954]

On 8/1/2024 at 5:38 PM, Jski.6180 said:

As long as the classes can self support and support other at the same time there will be an imbalance. So classes like gurd being able to self stab and support stab at the same time your going to have an issues (also an issues with soloish version getting to much stab up time being borderline unccable.)

Stab is the solution to taking control away from players, something which is generally accepted as not fun. Other games deal with immunity timers, this game has stability and stun breaks.

Quote

The counter to boon ball meta is cc not boon strip though boon strip helps you cc ppl. The ability to eat a tick of pulsing aoe dmg and being able to move out of the effect and not taking consistently dmg but only a small bit of dmg lets ppl live though dmg that should be very punishing to big groups. So ccing ppl in an MS should be THE counter to boon ball but things like stab reistectes swiftness super speed and even leaps cause such big and slow hitting skills not work well even though they "show" high dmg they are not realy doing any thing effective.

That is such a weird take.

CC is the counter to EVERYTHING. Having your control taken away, especially in a mode where you can be targeted by 50+ players, is a guarantee for losing.

Delving deeper beyond the obvious though: boons result in a power spike of around 300%, more if one considers lack of defensive boons on opponents. Boons literally ARE the issue why the current meta players the way it does.

That said, what is that boon ball doing while you are surgically dismembering it with your cc and then damage? Are they watching you do it and twiddling their thumbs? Any cc you throw at that boon ball will get returned twice fold and with no ability to counter it, you are dead in the water. Ever seen the difference between a thief, which is a master at avoiding cc and disengaging if played properly avoid damage thrown at them, and those which just stand an take it?

Quote

We may need unconterable soft cc that cant be cleared OR reblance pAoE skills to do more dmg on there cast and as soon as they are cast. If you cast your dmg skills well they should down ppl but if ppl simply walk into it they should not want to take more then 2-3 ticks. Maybe even wells or pAoE boon strip effects should front load there cc / strips so things like we will have effects that will strip 3 or so boons on its cast but less ticks after that. Maybe even having doble cc on pulsing cc so gravitly well would doble cc at the start of its being full cast.

Again, having unavoidable cc is NOT something you want, even if you might think you do. It's universally not fun and it extremely benefits the side which engages first.

The same effect is achieved with more boon denial, which makes cc work due to removing stab and which reduces the benefits boons provide. The main difference here? There is actual game play involved. Being denied boons is a serious detriment, but it does provide with game play possibilities.

I dare not imagine uncounter-able cc skills on top of boon-ed up squads. That's a recipe for disaster.

Edited August 3 by Cyninja.2954

[Thron Stal.9367]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:16 AM, Joonmo.7523 said:

Boon removal skills have been nerfed for years.
There is currently no counter to boonball meta.
 

I've read your discussions about boonball.

Some posts seem to think that the problem with boonball is due to celestial gear, but I don't think so.

Since a few years ago, ArenaNet has been nerfing boon removal skills.
Because of this, the biggest problem with boonball is that there is no counter.
The only thing that can beat boonball now is a stronger boonball.

Boonball was strong before, but not as much as it is now.
Because boon removal skills did their job properly.

Currently, boon removal skills are too limited in number and ineffective compared to boon sharing skills.

Spellbreaker's elite skill "Winds of Disenchantment" was a counter to Disenchantment.
But now, after 10 nerfs in 7 years, it is inefficient compared to the slots consumed and the cooldown.
(10 seconds duration, 0.5 seconds pulse, 10 targets, 100% boon duration reduction -> 4 seconds duration, 1 second pulse, 5 targets, 33% boon duration reduction)
Spellbreaker's "Break Enchantments" changed from 4 disenchantments to 1 disenchantment.
Masmer's null field was halved.

In addition, many disenchantment skills and traits were nerfed.

The reason why boon balls are so powerful now is that disenchantment skills have been nerfed over the past 7 years, so there is no counter.
 

And this is getting annoying to the extreme.  You are spot on. Thanks.

[oatsnjuices.1698]

There was a time when zerg busters was a thing. Small guilds that could attack and defeat double their numbers. They would be proud to have enough experience to be part of that community. I think the powers that be wanted to change that so zergs with newer players could survive long enough to feel like they learned a little more rotation and that is why boon spam is now a thing. Even in roaming, if you add a tempest and something with stab to some engineers and willbenders, that force becomes the dominant force in small scale. They can sit outside of a keep during non peak hours and nothing can stop them from walking all over anything that fights them. The only recourse is to run that comp, outnumber them, or have something fast enough to get around them. Thieves can do that, but they cant win against that. The tempest is by far the strongest class to run in small scale, then maybe a vindi with a bubble, tank warrior, and maybe a tank engi, in that order. 

I would love to see zerg busters come back. The last group i seen would sit in smc on the weekends with mainly engineers and run in, one shot half the zerg, and run back out before their skills run out. I have seen them punish zergs, nothing comped and competent, but they did their best against all. Boon spam isn't the only culprit, it is the ability of one class to have so much heal that they can 10% to 100% in just two seconds, not just themselves but all 5 in their party. Willbenders are not super op, but they are to people that cant counter or run from them. It is when there is a super healer with them that they really shine.  I dont think willbenders should be nerfed, I think damage classes should be buffed in damage, healing nerfed, and willbenders and other damage dealers can be the protecters of the zerg against people that would pick them apart.

The only side effect of super healers and boon bots is that they prevent smaller numbers from being able to fend off  zergs with numerical advantage by divide and conquer. If someone is near a guardian in a zerg, and they do not have stab, they cant be pulled easy. I have messed with thief scorpion wire watching for stab and immunity (another name for stab) to vanish and still could not pull them. There is no divide and conquer, there is no zerg busting, and there is no defence against super healers unless the party defending has all of that also. Boons outshine experience, so wvw is just pve with a gank, smallscale, blob v blob fight twist. If outnumbered and everyone on the opposite side is in the zerg, there is no content except back capping (pve), and that is boring to people who want to be in the fight but cant.  

Edited August 3 by oatsnjuices.1698

[urd.8306]

The main issue with this ridiculous afk farm meta is that fields can't hurt you enough.
A blob that doesn't move and stand in siege fire and additional player AoE should melt and not be able to rez downstates for hours.
The point of AoE fields always was to "do not stand in fire".
Having to move your blob meant to learn to stack close or getting killed. Without having to move or dodge because the boons and support just keeps you alive just destroys the whole idea of fighting.
The whole support has to be toned down to a point where standing in two or three AoE fields and Sieges means losing.

 

[Jski.6180]

On 8/1/2024 at 4:04 PM, coro.3176 said:

No need to add new things. Just fix the old ones. We *have* soft CC in the form of conditions (cripple, chill, immob). It just doesn't work because it is cleansed instantly? Why? Same reason that everyone has every boon all the time: Support shares too much value with party members. Remove shared cleanse, and suddenly soft CC actually works again. As a bonus, condition damage actually works again too instead of only doing 1 tick before it's insta-cleansed or converted.

Ideal its not about the clears them self but how fast the clears happen if an root stops some one for an moment that is enofe to down some one in a big aoe or to separate them from the group. The same could be said for other soft cc and hard cc. So the clears that are one shot (one butten push clears) are often more balanced then channeled clears (the faster the pules the less balance.) Passive clears that simple go off are more of an issues then any thing else though i think most of them are self only. Any thing that stops the cc effects comply is the issues.

Its things like boons that just stop the effect of cc is an bigger issues. Mostly stab and Resistance so my suggestion is to update these 2 boons. I think stab should have an after effect of striping an stab stack (max not per hard cc effect) for ever 1 sec of the hard cc duration (base strip would be 2 stacks at the minimum.) If you lose your stab comply before its duration nothing will happen you can only be hard cc at the start of the skill the duration only will eat stab stacks rewarding ppl for stacking stun duration as well as stacking - stun duration if ppl want to build that way.

I think Resistance should act the same way as stab (and my updated version of stab ideal) making resistance into an stack effect with lower duration that is eaten by applying soft cc and is strip over time 1 sec when having any type of soft cc effect (only 1 stack at an time max not per soft cc effect.)

I am not comply sure how to fix swiftness super and leaps counters to aoe dps beyond making them weaker vs soft cc (will not work as well vs soft cc or will not go as far when under the effect of soft cc.)

[Kozumi.5816]

On 8/1/2024 at 9:46 AM, Chaos God.1639 said:

i'm just not complaining about what you can "boonball". the game should be balanced for everybody and not just the boonball complainers.

it looks like the boonball complainers expect everybody else to just agree with whatever they are saying...

Boonball has been an issue for over half a decade and all Anet does is balance around THEM, despite that type of gameplay being the worst PvP you can find in gaming as a whole.

I used to actively avoid boonballs to get any semblance of fun and skillful PvP out of WvW. However, now that is impossible, because boonballs is ALL you fight.

2v2 is a boon ball

5v5 is a boonball

10vs10 is a boonball

etc etc.

They are boring to beat, they are boring to lose to, and they are boring to play as.

It's so boring and I just run around WvW as my PvE spec, take objectives and sit there bored out of my mind as I do a really bad version of PvE.

Once I finish my legendaries I am never touching this 100% trash worst PvP mode in gaming ever again.

 

Edited August 3 by Kozumi.5816

[Junkpile.7439]

Never understand how these GoB leechers even can play PvE. It's like they need to process every situation 2 sec before they do something.

[Kozumi.5816]

7 minutes ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Never understand how these GoB leechers even can play PvE. It's like they need to process every situation 2 sec before they do something.

Boonball vs boonball is just a very, very, very bad version of PvE.

[cryorion.9532]

On 8/1/2024 at 3:46 PM, Chaos God.1639 said:

i'm just not complaining about what you can "boonball". the game should be balanced for everybody and not just the boonball complainers.

it looks like the boonball complainers expect everybody else to just agree with whatever they are saying...

It should be balanced for everybody and now it is balanced around huge boonballs. So maybe the complaining is justified? Nerfing boonball means balancing the game for everybody.

[Kozumi.5816]

7 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

It should be balanced for everybody and now it is balanced around huge boonballs. So maybe the complaining is justified? Nerfing boonball means balancing the game for everybody.

Yeah, the majority do not boonball, but sadly Anet doesn't seem to care.

Edited August 4 by Kozumi.5816

[Triptaminas.4789]

On 8/3/2024 at 12:41 PM, oatsnjuices.1698 said:

There was a time when zerg busters was a thing. Small guilds that could attack and defeat double their numbers. They would be proud to have enough experience to be part of that community. I think the powers that be wanted to change that so zergs with newer players could survive long enough to feel like they learned a little more rotation and that is why boon spam is now a thing. Even in roaming, if you add a tempest and something with stab to some engineers and willbenders, that force becomes the dominant force in small scale. They can sit outside of a keep during non peak hours and nothing can stop them from walking all over anything that fights them. The only recourse is to run that comp, outnumber them, or have something fast enough to get around them. Thieves can do that, but they cant win against that. The tempest is by far the strongest class to run in small scale, then maybe a vindi with a bubble, tank warrior, and maybe a tank engi, in that order. 

I would love to see zerg busters come back. The last group i seen would sit in smc on the weekends with mainly engineers and run in, one shot half the zerg, and run back out before their skills run out. I have seen them punish zergs, nothing comped and competent, but they did their best against all. Boon spam isn't the only culprit, it is the ability of one class to have so much heal that they can 10% to 100% in just two seconds, not just themselves but all 5 in their party. Willbenders are not super op, but they are to people that cant counter or run from them. It is when there is a super healer with them that they really shine.  I dont think willbenders should be nerfed, I think damage classes should be buffed in damage, healing nerfed, and willbenders and other damage dealers can be the protecters of the zerg against people that would pick them apart.

The only side effect of super healers and boon bots is that they prevent smaller numbers from being able to fend off  zergs with numerical advantage by divide and conquer. If someone is near a guardian in a zerg, and they do not have stab, they cant be pulled easy. I have messed with thief scorpion wire watching for stab and immunity (another name for stab) to vanish and still could not pull them. There is no divide and conquer, there is no zerg busting, and there is no defence against super healers unless the party defending has all of that also. Boons outshine experience, so wvw is just pve with a gank, smallscale, blob v blob fight twist. If outnumbered and everyone on the opposite side is in the zerg, there is no content except back capping (pve), and that is boring to people who want to be in the fight but cant.  

Hits right into feels 😞

[Joonmo.7523]

The time when boon balls were the most problematic was before POF.

Back then, there was no maximum time limit for boons, and the Mesmer's boon share build could use mimic, Signet of Inspiration, Continuum Split, etc. to use more than 5 boon shares.

As a result, with just 3 Mesmers, a 50-person blob was created where all boons lasted 5-10 minutes.

Just like now, the only way to beat a boon ball was with a stronger boon ball.

To address this, Arenanet made a few balance patches.

1. Stability boons were changed to stack instead of extending their time.

(I think Resistance boons should also be stacked. I also think stability should be removed continuously instead of just once every 0.75 seconds.)

2. All boons had a maximum duration limit.

3. Spellbreaker and Scourge are released. These are classes that can remove boons from a wide area.

Finally, a Profession with a skill corresponding to the counter to boon ball was created.

However, due to the backlash from users who wanted to continue using the powerful boon ball for years, the boon removal skills have been continuously nerfed.

[CafPow.1542]

15 minutes ago, Joonmo.7523 said:

3. Spellbreaker and Scourge are released. These are classes that can remove boons from a wide area

Yes but it gets nerfed over and over again. Just like the new mechanic on necro spear that prevents you from getting boons.

anet wants that, there is no other explanation. 

[Joonmo.7523]

Here are the nerfs to the boon remove skills I found.
Most of them were nerfed when applied to multiple targets.

Unholy Feast  

Boons Removed: 2 ->1   February 25, 2020

 

Break Enchantments

Boons Removed: 4 ->2 December 01, 2020

Boons Removed: 2 -> 1 June 27, 2023

 

Throw Mine

June 28, 2022    
Reduced number of boons removed from 3 to 2 in WvW only.

October 04, 2022    
Reduced number of boons removed from 2 to 1 in WvW only.

 

Null Field

November 28, 2023    
Increased the cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in WvW only.
March 19, 2024    
Reduced the field duration from 5 seconds to 2 seconds in WvW only. Reduced the number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only.
 

Winds of Disenchantment

October 16, 2018    
The duration of this skill has been split, and it will now have a 5-second duration in WvW and PvP while retaining a 10-second duration in PvE.
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced target cap from 10 to 5.
December 01, 2020    
This skill is no longer channeled. Instead it drops a stationary spell area that lasts for 5 seconds with a 1-second pulse interval.
March 29, 2022    
Reduced incoming boon duration reduction from 100% to 33% in WvW only.
June 27, 2023    
Lowered the duration from 5 seconds to 4 seconds in WvW only.

 

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

8 minutes ago, Joonmo.7523 said:

Here are the nerfs to the boon remove skills I found.
Most of them were nerfed when applied to multiple targets.

Unholy Feast  

Boons Removed: 2 ->1   February 25, 2020

 

Break Enchantments

Boons Removed: 4 ->2 December 01, 2020

Boons Removed: 2 -> 1 June 27, 2023

 

Throw Mine

June 28, 2022    
Reduced number of boons removed from 3 to 2 in WvW only.

October 04, 2022    
Reduced number of boons removed from 2 to 1 in WvW only.

 

Null Field

November 28, 2023    
Increased the cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in WvW only.
March 19, 2024    
Reduced the field duration from 5 seconds to 2 seconds in WvW only. Reduced the number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only.
 

Winds of Disenchantment

October 16, 2018    
The duration of this skill has been split, and it will now have a 5-second duration in WvW and PvP while retaining a 10-second duration in PvE.
February 25, 2020    Competitive content update:
(Competitive split) Reduced target cap from 10 to 5.
December 01, 2020    
This skill is no longer channeled. Instead it drops a stationary spell area that lasts for 5 seconds with a 1-second pulse interval.
March 29, 2022    
Reduced incoming boon duration reduction from 100% to 33% in WvW only.
June 27, 2023    
Lowered the duration from 5 seconds to 4 seconds in WvW only.

 

 

any form of cunning salvo + rending shade + harrowing storm/orchestrated assault + basilisk venom 2 stack on 5 deadeyes =  max 10 per salvo, 10 per recalled stealth axe....though a/d better

and since it relies on initiative / stealth, ez with deadeye utilities to restealth paired with relic of nourys (See thief section forums A Build:Fear Monger)

i dare say its the most aoe boon steals in game right now.

[Joonmo.7523]

The celestial option that affects boon duration and condition duration was an option that existed 5 years ago, as far as I remember.
During that time, the celestial option was widely used in all areas.
It was also a very good option for beginners.
It provided a build that was guaranteed to have moderate defense and moderate attack power while being average in many builds.
It was also a very useful option for beginners.

I know that the celestial option has been mentioned frequently in the forums recently, and it is said that it plays a very important role in boon ball.
Of course, player research on the celestial option has been mentioned for at least 3 or 4 years.

Why is the celestial option being talked about so much only recently?

The point in time when the celestial option for boon ball started to be mentioned frequently coincides with the point in time when Null Field was nerfed. And it was nerfed by half.

Is this really a coincidence?

Before being nerfed, Null Field could be used twice using the mimic skill, and for this reason, it was the most representative boon removal skill.

In addition, most of the AOE boon removal skills mentioned above were nerfed.

In contrast, boon removal skills with only one target were not upgraded or nerfed.

Arenanet has been nerfing AOE boon removal skills, which are counters to boon balls, since 2022.

Currently, there is no boon ball counter.

[Joonmo.7523]

Currently, there is no boon ball counter.

It's back to the point where there is no boon ball counter between HOT and POF.

Currently, WvW is mainly focused on GvG guilds.

There is no counter to GvG guild's boon ball strategy, and as a result, there is no way to deal with pug groups even if they have a large number of people, which means that there is no reason to create groups in WvW other than GvG guilds.

Players without guilds or guilds that cannot perform GvG will no longer play WvW.

Arenanet needs to check how much the number of players actually decreases when there is no GvG guild.

If there is no GvG guild at present, one side is being unilaterally slaughtered.

In addition, this is the equipment with the celecial option that users who start out receive when they jump to level 80, and it is said that the most balanced and best option for beginners will be nerfed.

In addition, I think that the participation rate of WvW will decrease even more because people who use Celestial equipment are psychologically disadvantaged.

Think about it, what would a player who doesn't know this fact think when they go to the battlefield and see that their boon duration and condition duration have decreased, and what would they think and accept when they hear the reason from others?

We've already experienced something similar to this.

[Joonmo.7523]

We've already had a bad experience with over-nerfing CC skills.

Arenanet once removed the damage of CC skills because they were too powerful.

I would have balanced things differently.

The counters to CC skills are Break Stun and Stability.
In some builds, CC skills may not have any counters at all, and most of you probably learned the game through PvE with these builds.
Then suddenly stability and break stun appear as essential skills in PvP and WvW.
When did you first realize the existence and importance of break stun and stability when you started playing the game?

If I were you, I would have added break stun options to weapon skills.
Basically, I would have made it so that it has 1 or 2 break stuns regardless of the build.
Also, I would have made elite or veteran monsters use CC skills often so that they can learn break stun naturally in PvE.
And I would have made them aware of the importance of this.

Also, instead of nerfing almost all strike damage skills because TTK is too low, they probably increased Vitality efficiency by 1.5~2x.

The balance of WvW PvP is important, but if there is too much difference in skill specs between PvE and PvE, the knowledge learned in PvE will be useless and you will have to learn PVP and WvW from the beginning.

This will become a barrier to entry to WvW PvP, and the number of players will decrease even more.

I know it is hard to balance because of PVE, fractals, and raids.

However, I think that the skills of PVE, WvW, and PVP should not be too different.

Edited Monday at 12:21 AM by Joonmo.7523

[Joonmo.7523]

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

any form of cunning salvo + rending shade + harrowing storm/orchestrated assault + basilisk venom 2 stack on 5 deadeyes =  max 10 per salvo, 10 per recalled stealth axe....though a/d better

and since it relies on initiative / stealth, ez with deadeye utilities to restealth paired with relic of nourys (See thief section forums A Build:Fear Monger)

i dare say its the most aoe boon steals in game right now.

Is this a single target or a multi-target boon removal skill??

If it's a single target, it's hard to call it a boon ball counter.

[Joonmo.7523]

2 hours ago, CafPow.1542 said:

Yes but it gets nerfed over and over again. Just like the new mechanic on necro spear that prevents you from getting boons.

anet wants that, there is no other explanation. 

I think necro spear's boon removal skill will be nerfed in the near future.