No strikes at all in JW?

[Ashantara.8731]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:23 PM, Ghastly.3914 said:

My biggest issue with Strikes is how noob UNFRIENDLY it is. Seriously, the need for a commander and the professions terminology such as ALAC heal and stuff like that doesn't really help Strikes. Would be better if Strikes didn't "require" commanders and professions needed for them were a bit easier to fill up so people can plop in with a predtermined setup by Anet: 3dps, 2 alac, etc. I know GW2 hates predetermining professions for players but when it comes to content like Strikes the commanders/playerbase kinda does that already; so why not make it easier for players to fill those roles automatically by a system created by Anet?

Strikes are a lot more casual than Raids, because they are shorter. That is the main difference. For those complaining that Strikes were not for casual players or new players: wrong. They were exactly made for that, so you could train to "get good" before you hop into Raids.

If you don't like efficiently organized groups, there is plenty of content for you, too, in this game.

[Gehenna.3625]

41 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

HoT has 0 strikes, PoF has 6 or 7 (opinions differ when it comes to "Forging Steel"), EoD has 4, SotO has 2 and the core game has 1 (though that one was developed and released during EoD). So going into JW, a raid wing with 3 bosses is technically 50% more "raid content" than SotO added with its 2 strikes.

Oh right, I thought EoD and SoTO each had 3 strikes. Clearly I never really did many Strikes lol. 

[Luthan.5236]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:23 PM, Ghastly.3914 said:

PS. My biggest issue with Strikes is how noob UNFRIENDLY it is. Seriously, the need for a commander and the professions terminology such as ALAC heal and stuff like that doesn't really help Strikes. Would be better if Strikes didn't "require" commanders and professions needed for them were a bit easier to fill up so people can plop in with a predtermined setup by Anet: 3dps, 2 alac, etc. I know GW2 hates predetermining professions for players but when it comes to content like Strikes the commanders/playerbase kinda does that already; so why not make it easier for players to fill those roles automatically by a system created by Anet?

You mention the strikes and talk about them trying something new in JW - but you say you started in 2023 with SotO. Let me tell you: They did have raids already before (in other older content that came before SotO). Raids are considered harder - more of the problems you describe for raids.

I think the main problem with the terms like "alac", "heal" is the combat system and people generate those stuff for their lfg. (I know most stuff but some abbreviatoins really are a bit obscure when you do not play that kind of content a lot. I think I have seen abbreviations with 3 letters and a q in it for quickness ... 2 others that stood for something else.)

Commander is not really needed - makes it easier for people to "stack" (to get buffs.) Afaik there is/was a public mode? (Did they ever introduce it for later strikes. Afaik the IBS ones had it.) Problem is that it barely got used. People just use (for easy/casual play) the "Strike (training)" option in the lfg instead of using a public mode. (Where you could join without a squad needed technically. It just logged people in to the mission at some point - so the group was fixed (no others being able to join amymore afaik).

Maybe they could have done a better job advertising that public mode or making it more prominent. (Like ... making it a default/only mode and adding the option for premades only for the challenge mote.) For things like convergences and dragonstorm it seems to work fine - though they have a 50 man instance. Must be because of the better rewards + them being limited (opening certain times only, the public thing).

[Berune.7408]

On 8/2/2024 at 12:29 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

They practically said that Strikes failed. They apparently did not result in more casual players getting interested in higher difficulty content. Nor did they really replace raids for the raid community either. We don't know if the easier IBS strikes brought with them enough player interest in low difficulty instanced 10-man content, but even if they did, clearly that's not what Anet was interested in at all.

So, it seems they are abandoning strikes, and making one more push into reviving raids (even though this time they aren't as hopeful about their success as they were once). If they succeed, they will follow up with their new model. If they fail (as is more likely)... who knows? But i wouldn't be so sure about them just going back to strikes. It'd be more likely they'd either try to reinvent the wheel again, or throw the towel completely.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think the success or failure of the strikes has been at least partially due to the player community, and players in general. Any content mode like that is going to live or die based on how accessible we, as a player base, make it. While it's true the "difficulty" or skill-requirements of the game mode has impact on that, the prevailing player base ultimately sets the defacto standard or trend in how groups are formed and which players "qualify" for the content.

It seems like it would be challenging at best for ANet to make strikes more accessible and popular with a larger segment of "casual" players without significantly lowering the skill-requirements of that content to a point that would make the content less "fun" for players looking for more of a challenging game mode. So really, it has to be player base that sets the tone of how that game mode is perceived in terms of how accessible it is to casual players, regardless of the actual level of challenge presented.

Anyway just my .02, but I have been thinking about this kind of thing for a long time now, and I've yet to see a game find that mythical balance point between challenging mechanics and ease of accessibility that will ensure casual players get into the step-up game mode. Maybe there's an approach that will work eventually, or maybe that approach is not feasible from a development resource perspective, but for whatever reason it seems to be an elusive thing in video games and especially MMOs.

[Cuks.8241]

Well I like Strike format much more. And I totally get why Raids are better for some. Its more engaging format, its that dungeon delve with a group of friends. I would enjoy them more.

But if you have barely an hour or 2 of playtime a day that you cant really schedule in advance and can get interrupted by RL, strikes are just convenient and actualy doable most of the time.

Now if a raid is just tougher version of story the whole point of a raid is kinda lost.

I think they could do both actually without much hassle. A full raid but bosses can also be accessed as strikes. Maybe you need to first kill the boss in raid before you can enter strike although Im not even sure what would that accomplish.

In the end whats most important is that encounter is good.

 

Edit: from my experience strikes are populated and anyone can get into a normal strike fast and easy. Not saying raids are hard to get groups but more comitment is required even though the few I did were quite easy nowadays.

Edited August 17 by Cuks.8241

[Gehenna.3625]

8 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Well I like Strike format much more. And I totally get why Raids are better for some. Its more engaging format, its that dungeon delve with a group of friends. I would enjoy them more.

A personal opinion, but that's fair.

8 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

But if you have barely an hour or 2 of playtime a day that you cant really schedule in advance and can get interrupted by RL, strikes are just convenient and actualy doable most of the time.

Not to be rude; this sounds a bit like a you problem, but again fair as a personal opinion. I do wonder how many people are in your situation though and want to do strikes. I doubt it's very many, so the chances of you being heard are slim imo.

8 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Now if a raid is just tougher version of story the whole point of a raid is kinda lost.

Depends on what you want to get out of it. Raids are instances with multiple bosses that have challenging mechanics. Whether or not those are story bosses, wouldn't really make a difference imo. Having said that, it's nice if they have their own story line but it's not required afaic.

8 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I think they could do both actually without much hassle. A full raid but bosses can also be accessed as strikes. Maybe you need to first kill the boss in raid before you can enter strike although Im not even sure what would that accomplish.

I wouldn't presume to know how much hassle this would be. 

8 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

In the end whats most important is that encounter is good.

I would say that's obvious. Content does have to be good, but the issue with that is that various people will have various opinions on what they consider "good".

8 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Edit: from my experience strikes are populated and anyone can get into a normal strike fast and easy. Not saying raids are hard to get groups but more comitment is required even though the few I did were quite easy nowadays.

Strikes may be populated but what if they're populated by people who'd prefer doing raids? I suspect though that it's harder to get groups for raids as well as CMs but I don't raid in this game so that's just me guessing.

[Astralporing.1957]

17 hours ago, Berune.7408 said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think the success or failure of the strikes has been at least partially due to the player community, and players in general. Any content mode like that is going to live or die based on how accessible we, as a player base, make it. While it's true the "difficulty" or skill-requirements of the game mode has impact on that, the prevailing player base ultimately sets the defacto standard or trend in how groups are formed and which players "qualify" for the content.

Yes, sure. And what about it? When content design does not consider the behaviour of the community it is supposedly aiming for, it's a flaw of the content design. Not of the community.

17 hours ago, Berune.7408 said:

It seems like it would be challenging at best for ANet to make strikes more accessible and popular with a larger segment of "casual" players without significantly lowering the skill-requirements of that content to a point that would make the content less "fun" for players looking for more of a challenging game mode.

You are right, that there wasn't much Anet could do to make strikes more approachable without sacrificing the "challenge" factor. The issue however is not that the more hardcore players didn't try enough to make the content more appealing. The issue was always that not enough players wanted that type of challenging content in the first place. Anet tried to sell the content to players that didn't want it.

17 hours ago, Berune.7408 said:

 So really, it has to be player base that sets the tone of how that game mode is perceived in terms of how accessible it is to casual players, regardless of the actual level of challenge presented.

Sure, players can try to fix the mistakes made by developers, but that does not change the fact that those were mistakes. Nor should the players be expected to do so.

17 hours ago, Berune.7408 said:

 Anyway just my .02, but I have been thinking about this kind of thing for a long time now, and I've yet to see a game find that mythical balance point between challenging mechanics and ease of accessibility that will ensure casual players get into the step-up game mode. Maybe there's an approach that will work eventually, or maybe that approach is not feasible from a development resource perspective, but for whatever reason it seems to be an elusive thing in video games and especially MMOs.

You won't find it because it does not exist. Simply put, a large part of playerbase is not interested in challegning content at all. Never were, and never will. They do not play to be challenged, but to have laid-back fun. As long as devs do not understand this, and think that by waving a magical wand they can change that behaviour (if only they find the correct magic spell), they will keep failing and failing.

That's why multiple tier difficulty levels are important. And not just as a "stairway" to higher difficulties, as the more hardcore players (and devs) would like them to be, but as simple separation of players with different playstyles and goals. Playstyles and goals that just don't mix all that well in the same content.

[illuminati.8453]

On 7/31/2024 at 9:30 PM, Raizel.1839 said:

I know we're getting raid and convergence but strikes had become my favourite and most played pve content. It's sad if JW will have none.

This is the new Anet way - a promise of things to come! 

[interloper.6892]

Normal mode strikes being faceroll, while CM strikes were in some cases harder than raid CMs made no sense at all.   Actually strikes made no sense at all.  Raid story modes was the obvious answer. 

[Fipmip.7219]

im interested to see where story mode raids take us. the main blocker for high level pve content is players not wanting to take the plunge because of expectations from their comrades. these expectations take two forms: knowledge of mechanics and optimization of their build. i think these story raids will help people learn boss mechanics and level layout, so when its actual raid time they dont get left behind during traversal or confused during bosses. however i dont think it will push casuals to maximize their open world celestial build into something with at least 30k dps. maybe anet can come up with another solution for that in the future.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

7 hours ago, Fipmip.7219 said:

im interested to see where story mode raids take us. the main blocker for high level pve content is players not wanting to take the plunge because of expectations from their comrades. these expectations take two forms: knowledge of mechanics and optimization of their build. i think these story raids will help people learn boss mechanics and level layout, so when its actual raid time they dont get left behind during traversal or confused during bosses. however i dont think it will push casuals to maximize their open world celestial build into something with at least 30k dps. maybe anet can come up with another solution for that in the future.

Well said. I think mechanics is a big deal. If players are already lacking confidence in your ability to do the DPS people in Strikes/Raids expect AND you are having to learn new mechanics (which are frequently fairly unforgiving) then that's a huge ask. Let players learn the mechanics in a more relaxed setting and I'm sure you will get more of them trying the harder content.

[Renegated.4132]

On 8/2/2024 at 6:29 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

"They practically said that Strikes failed. They apparently did not result in more casual players getting interested in higher difficulty content."

The problem it's not the content, it's the community. ¿Why did raids fail? ¿Difficulty? No, they failed because part of the community became elitists when raids got released, to the point of kicking people for doing 3-5K less of damage than people that essentially had muscular memory, making it so something that should have had 10K players ended up having 2-3K. And for strikes goes the same, as soon as the content offers a certain difficulty they become enraged like monkey with the kitten full of wasps.

They had the chance to fix this back when W1 was released, allowing people to report said elitism, because it was not good elitism like happens on other MMO, it was toxic AF, but they decided to look to the other side so...

To the one who added the confused emoji, let me put you in context: As soon as you went in (if you could, because when W1 was released on week 2 people started asking for people with 3 LI) you had to ping all your gear, if the commie saw you fit (all ascended basically) you could go in, then you needed to survive the DPS check that, as said, people thought that DPS was written in stone, ignoring the fact that some people work and doesn't have the time to do a rotation 8h/day to the point of getting muscular memory, and lastly mechanics, back in the day mechs were more punishing (also new specs helped to be able to skip some), kittening up could also mean being instakicked, even if the mech was not a oneshot one. Precious situation, isn't it? Things got more relaxed, but when W1 was born... xDD

Edited August 24 by Renegated.4132

[Renegated.4132]

On 8/20/2024 at 1:12 PM, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

Well said. I think mechanics is a big deal. If players are already lacking confidence in your ability to do the DPS people in Strikes/Raids expect AND you are having to learn new mechanics (which are frequently fairly unforgiving) then that's a huge ask. Let players learn the mechanics in a more relaxed setting and I'm sure you will get more of them trying the harder content.

As a veteran raider (and healer, for more masochism), I can assure you that most of the mechanics are not the problem, the problem it's that most of the time people forgets the phrase "Red means danger, Green means safe", 80-90% of the mechs reduce to that, the other 10% are things like Sabetha's Cannons, Dhuum's orb collection... And with this comes the second problem, people thinking that healers are the Virgin of Lourdes, capable of doing miracles.

[Krzysztof.5973]

21 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

The problem it's not the content, it's the community. ¿Why did raids fail? ¿Difficulty? No, they failed because part of the community became elitists when raids got released, to the point of kicking people for doing 3-5K less of damage than people

If you had to put a percentage for this "elitist community" during Wing 1 release, what would it be? 

[Renegated.4132]

1 minute ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

If you had to put a percentage for this "elitist community" during Wing 1 release, what would it be? 

Probably more than half of the public commanders. On week 2 most of the parties were asking for 3LI, essentially meaning take down all the bosses on week 1. When W2 got released things got a bit more relaxed, but when only W1 was there... xD

[Adngel.9786]

I'm not discourdaged by the difficulty, what I avoid is the party itself.

The build requirements and LI demmands are once thing, but over that, there is also the issue of waiting 20-90 mins, for the group creation before to actually start. And once inside, all the bickering and discussions through the mission, plus the lectures or people leaving the group because the monster took 7 mins to beat instead of 5. Going raid was like spend the evening in a social chat or voice chat, instead of playing GW2.

In adittion I bring back my experiences with parties in dungeons and fractals, were we go easily to the last boss, and then I'm kicked out of the group for no reason. (My guess is that they do that to bring a friend instead).  I don't know is that behaviour is punishable, I think is not. In any case, I use to avoid parties content.

Reading about the convergences, I fear they may be chaotic as players may jump without worry about mechanics (like the Soto metas where they fails because people can't wait to kill bosses at the same time). But being able to just connect and go to play, is more interesting to me than the organised raid (with all the issues it entails).

Edited August 24 by Adngel.9786