So I'm seeing a lot of Spear Warriors in ToL

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

See that is your main problem, not that Warrior is good, its that what you play sucks in the current meta, but instead of trying to get your profession on the up and up allot of people whine about such and such being OP. See Warrior mains whined to get kitten working to have some synergy in the traits and got it after years, also they didn't whine about someone having better toys then them, they just wanted to have some toys of their own.
See here is an Idea create and Engi Omnibus forum post , discuss Ideas how to fix issues with engi and bump it from time to time, create similar post with parts from the main post since the devs don't read the long pages (they said so), keep this up for years,  Anet releases new elite spec be disappointed cause it does the same kitten as the other specs on engi, be double disappointed cause some elite spec from the ideas got copy pasted on other profession, after like 2 or 3 years there is some movement for reworks on core specializations that somehow use the suggestions and tada Engi works, but it no longer matters cause you switched professions like year one and don't give a kitten anymore. 
Also if you try to scour my writings for some gotcha, at this point I'm Necro main or more exactly Power Reaper main and I get to whinge about stupid kitten one shotting my kitten teleporting around or having unreadable telegraphs. 

Correct. 

3 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

 Make a forum post asking for engi to be looked at, and buffed. I will HAPPILY support you loud af.

Also correct. I play engie too (not competitively yet because I'm a fan of bomb kit, but that may change with the flamethrower kit stunbreak ❤️ ) and you know full well I keep an eye on the weird-kitten changes they toss engie from time to time.

The weirdest part about all of this is the placatory tone that comes from a couple of forum posters, like because their professions have problems too the warrior players shouldnt be so loud about their problems.

You go be loud too, you deserve to have your specs work. the hell are you doing accepting it? and when/if you overreach everyone will let you know, dw. I want to play something entertaining without having to struggle against people content to make the game boring af, who said anyone needed to defer to that? 💀 

Edited September 25 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Correct. 

Also correct. I play engie too (not competitively yet because I'm a fan of bomb kit, but that may change with the flamethrower kit stunbreak ❤️ ) and you know full well I keep an eye on the weird-kitten changes they toss engie from time to time.

The weirdest part about all of this is the placatory tone that comes from a couple of forum posters, like because their professions have problems too the warrior players shouldnt be so loud about their problems.

You go be loud too, you deserve to have your specs work. the hell are you doing accepting it? and when/if you overreach everyone will let you know, dw. I want to play something entertaining without having to struggle against people content to make the game boring af, who said anyone needed to defer to that? 💀 

This is correct.

[bethekey.8314]

5 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

See that is your main problem, not that Warrior is good, its that what you play sucks in the current meta, but instead of trying to get your profession on the up and up allot of people whine about such and such being OP. See Warrior mains whined to get kitten working to have some synergy in the traits and got it after years, also they didn't whine about someone having better toys then them, they just wanted to have some toys of their own.

Sorry, no. It's an understanding that Anet clearly has a limited ability to do many things at a time, and an attitude contrast between classes currently dominating the meta vs not in it at all. You display it nicely here, always asking for more, loudly.

That selfish thinking is what leads to power creep and many things becoming obsolete at once. It's nice to want things improved, but understand other classes may need more focus. You should strive for balanced PvP -- that's what's most fun -- not your class constantly getting buffs / coming out on top.

And as much as it deserves it, I'm not here in this thread to advocate for Engi, nor do I think there's any point in doing so if the goal is to prompt Anet to make changes. Engi is what I know best and I often use it as an example to make points, like the one above.

5 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Are you serious? The forum balance changes are responsible for the destruction of this game mode. They have historically pulled more than half there balance choices from the forums. And their discord. No one needs to prove anything wrong - look at the correlation between the forums and the balance choices.

Yeah, although I'm not talking about vague sentiments like X is over/underpowered. I'd love to be proven wrong here, but despite your allusions to large amounts of historical data I have my doubts of forum impact.

I specifically say "caused". It's harder to prove that adjusting the power of an existing outlier effect came from a forum suggestion as opposed to something Anet would have done anyway/was told to do from insider discords/streamers. Instead, the clearest examples would be suggestions of new functions/reworks that originated on the forums and made it into the game. Maybe share some of those?

5 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

You're perpetuating the vacum of "nerf this, creates a space for this, now nerf this." Its just reduction based whack a mole until nothing is left.

You make a lot of assumptions in your post. From knowing how Anet does balance, to why I posted this topic, to what I want in this game. It's punctuated by an "I'm right if you argue" and your weirdly passive-aggressive forum signature.

I can say that I'm not here to advocate for perpetual nerfs as you imply. I can also say I find you immediately annoying as a person and will happily avoid discussions involving you.

[WingSwipe.3084]

On 9/24/2024 at 4:06 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

Lol. "Hey Anet we like how OP Spellbreaker is, but it's so OP that we're tired of playing the same kitten. Can we take some OP points from Spellbreaker and allocate them to our other specs?"

Not what any of us said, but it’s fine. You do your thing.

we wanted SPB to be less oppressive and for other elite specs to be more viable, very few of us liked how SPB was in the S+ tier.

On 9/24/2024 at 4:06 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

Meanwhile Engineers are outside in the dirt banging two rusted turrets together, just trying to spark a fire to survive.

My god dude. You all seem like such Debbie-Downers complaining that all of Warrior isn't meta-viable at once / pre-whining about nerfs that haven't happened. Be happy you're relevant at all and take whatever comes in stride.

"Everyone has to deal with having sand in their milkshake, its how the game is designed. You need to accept the sand in your milkshake because thats how its always been."

My brother in Grenth, there are people in the balance team getting payed to fix this for all professions, your money is going towards this.

We shouldnt have to ask why other people have less "sand in their milkshake", we should be asking why there is "sand in the milkshake" to start off with.

Engineer should be having multiple viable play styles as well.

[jdawgie.1835]

16 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

despite your allusions to large amounts of historical data I have my doubts of forum impact.

You having your doubts doesnt changed whats been true for the last 12 years - Anet makes changes based on the repetitive feedback of this forum. 

16 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

You make a lot of assumptions in your post.

I made zero assumptions.

16 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

From knowing how Anet does balance

Anet's balancing is an established thing at this time - 12 years after release. The way they play Wack a mole and largely miss the point has been consistent. 

16 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I can say that I'm not here to advocate for perpetual nerfs as you imply

I dont think you are and never said what your motives where - I referred the cause and affect of your post. Your post can have an unintended outcome such as perpetuating something unhealthy for the game. 

16 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I can also say I find you immediately annoying as a person and will happily avoid discussions involving you.

Thats nice. Something about the Pot/Kettle and Assumptions. - If you decided to move away from complaining about warrior and move towards requesting engis be looked at I will still support you. 

16 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

It's punctuated by an "I'm right if you argue"

Thats what you got form my post - the message was intended to be - instead of us arguing lets move this isnto something productive where a profession that has been ignored gets properly looked at due to a unified request from the community. Something again I am more than happy to support you in. The treatment of engis from 2022 - 2023 is weird. 

Edited September 25 by jdawgie.1835

[bethekey.8314]

13 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

On 9/23/2024 at 6:06 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

Lol. "Hey Anet we like how OP Spellbreaker is, but it's so OP that we're tired of playing the same kitten. Can we take some OP points from Spellbreaker and allocate them to our other specs?"

Not what any of us said, but it’s fine. You do your thing.

we wanted SPB to be less oppressive and for other elite specs to be more viable, very few of us liked how SPB was in the S+ tier.

I mean I quoted it directly, lol. Sure sounded like you wanted to trade Spellbreaker nerfs for buffs to other Warrior specs. That's not really how it (should) work.

13 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

My brother in Grenth, there are people in the balance team getting payed to fix this for all professions, your money is going towards this.

We shouldnt have to ask why other people have less "sand in their milkshake", we should be asking why there is "sand in the milkshake" to start off with.

Engineer should be having multiple viable play styles as well.

If Anet had unlimited resources and a track record of regular, timely, and good balance changes, this wouldn't matter as much. But they don't and balance attention is limited. Attention that you all are still vying for on the backs of 2 big tournaments with 2-3 Warriors per team.

Of course you're not wrong for wanting viable and diverse builds. But aside from drawing Anets limited attention toward Warrior, it also comes off in poor taste. Both in awareness of other classes' situations and fair competition (my rusted turrets example). I feel the goal should be to prioritize raising up the weakest traits/skills/weapons out of all the classes to promote diversity. Kind of like how Ranger recently got a lot of focused attention. That may mean some balance patches go by without every class receiving little changes.

I look at the upcoming patch, still poorly performing Thief/Engi/Ele(?)/etc. spears, non-existent Ranger/Engi/etc. competitive builds and find myself asking:

"Did Mesmer and Guard need all these buffs?"

"Were they and Warrior really that desperate for new content on top of their already great spears and multiple viable builds?"

It's silly.

Edited September 25 by bethekey.8314

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

You having your doubts doesnt changed whats been true for the last 12 years - Anet makes changes based on the repetitive feedback of this forum. 

I made zero assumptions.

Anet's balancing is an established thing at this time - 12 years after release. The way they play Wack a mole and largely miss the point has been consistent. 

I dont think you are and never said what your motives where - I referred the cause and affect of your post. Your post can have an unintended outcome such as perpetuating something unhealthy for the game. 

Thats nice. Something about the Pot/Kettle and Assumptions. - If you decided to move away from complaining about warrior and move towards requesting engis be looked at I will still support you. 

Thats what you got form my post - the message was intended to be - instead of us arguing lets move this isnto something productive where a profession that has been ignored gets properly looked at due to a unified request from the community. Something again I am more than happy to support you in. The treatment of engis from 2022 - 2023 is weird. 

I'm going to echo this.

While I'm salty about the perpetual misfires on warrior balance, I am 10000% supportive of the various mains constructively advocating for their classes with tweaks, qol requests, and straight buffs where needed on all game modes. That is a positive thing and is far better than the circular firing squad that the forums represent in their unending calls to nerf other professions, only to call for a stop before their class comes in the cross hairs.

Change how you yourselves approach balance discussions, and once you are in lock step don't be surprised when anet follows along.

[jdawgie.1835]

15 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm going to echo this.

While I'm salty about the perpetual misfires on warrior balance, I am 10000% supportive of the various mains constructively advocating for their classes with tweaks, qol requests, and straight buffs where needed on all game modes. That is a positive thing and is far better than the circular firing squad that the forums represent in their unending calls to nerf other professions, only to call for a stop before their class comes in the cross hairs.

Change how you yourselves approach balance discussions, and once you are in lock step don't be surprised when anet follows along.

Amen Brother. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 9/25/2024 at 9:14 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm going to echo this.

While I'm salty about the perpetual misfires on warrior balance, I am 10000% supportive of the various mains constructively advocating for their classes with tweaks, qol requests, and straight buffs where needed on all game modes. That is a positive thing and is far better than the circular firing squad that the forums represent in their unending calls to nerf other professions, only to call for a stop before their class comes in the cross hairs.

Change how you yourselves approach balance discussions, and once you are in lock step don't be surprised when anet follows along.

I'd rather see mains acknowledge what's unfair and posit what needs to change to bring what's OP down and what's UP up, than demand for continuous powercreep.

I spent like ten years rebuking suggestions for Thief/Necro despite maining the classes because these suggestions had other ramifications than intended and would instantly make the class OP as soon as those benefits were exploited.

Most people foruming do not understand the nuances of what they're even suggesting most times, because they make a suggestion for a specific build or theme in mind and pay no heed to any of the other combinations and interactions with every other class.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

I'd rather see mains acknowledge what's unfair and posit what needs to change to bring what's OP down and what's UP up, than demand for continuous powercreep.

I spent like ten years rebuking suggestions for Thief/Necro despite maining the classes because these suggestions had other ramifications than intended and would instantly make the class OP as soon as those benefits were exploited.

Most people foruming do not understand the nuances of what they're even suggesting most times, because they make a suggestion for a specific build or theme in mind and pay no heed to any of the other combinations and interactions with every other class.

You do see this, but it is not done across the board.

[Nepster.4275]

Warriors need adjustments not nerfs

The fact that warriors play staff and spear is not because staff and spear is OP, but because staff and spear is better than the other weapons, you can't nerf everything on those weapons to the ground, because then they simply go back to D/Sh+H 

What most people complain about mostly is the Defense traitline most likely

But tbh, don't expect much, for warrior to be in a decent state ANet would need to review the whole class, with all it's traits + synergies  and adjust them, but most likely they will just nerf things left and right hoping that it works out 

[Myror.7521]

New Title

I see alot of chrono in mAT

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 hours ago, Nepster.4275 said:

Warriors need adjustments not nerfs

warrior needs a barrage of nerfs, straight up.

[WingSwipe.3084]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

warrior needs a barrage of nerfs, straight up.

Can we get some QOL in return?

[ascii.1369]

5 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

New Title

I see alot of chrono in mAT

Yeah, Chrono has been the dominant support pretty much ever since rifle was released with soto. And judging by the last mAT spear really pushed it over the edge. Lets just hope they don't do what they just did to warrior. Because support chrono seems to be the only spec massively overperforming with spear.

[Lucentfir.7430]

2 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Can we get some QOL in return?

No.

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Can we get some QOL in return?

Yes, after the nerfs warriors may touch grass again

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

Yeah, Chrono has been the dominant support pretty much ever since rifle was released with soto. And judging by the last mAT spear really pushed it over the edge. Lets just hope they don't do what they just did to warrior. Because support chrono seems to be the only spec massively overperforming with spear.

I'm bitter. Warrior style balancing for the lot of you. 

 

[WingSwipe.3084]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm bitter. Warrior style balancing for the lot of you. 

They wont learn any other way.

[bethekey.8314]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm bitter. Warrior style balancing for the lot of you. 

1 hour ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

They wont learn any other way.

So...amazing tools + buffs that make every class 3x optimal per team, then light slap-on-the-wrist nerfs to 2x optimal per team?

Do we celebrate complain before or after? To get the authentic Warrior experience.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm bitter. Warrior style balancing for the lot of you. 

So... reducing by 0.05% the coefficients while leaving me be with perma quickness\prot\alacrity?

Is that supposed to be a threat? 

[WingSwipe.3084]

On 9/30/2024 at 9:28 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

So...amazing tools + buffs that make every class 3x optimal per team, then light slap-on-the-wrist nerfs to 2x optimal per team?

Do we celebrate complain before or after? To get the authentic Warrior experience.

On 9/30/2024 at 9:36 AM, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

So... reducing by 0.05% the coefficients while leaving me be with perma quickness\prot\alacrity?

Is that supposed to be a threat? 

Im explaining this to you one last time so I can refer back to it when this question comes back up>

-Imagine having an elite spec that is over performing so ungodly hard that its essentially not beatable conventionally if played semi-competently.

-Imagine that profession having weapons that are completely outdated and desperately need buffs/reworks. But that elite spec is still overperforming so hard it can make the weapons work in spite of this.

-Imagine the profession gets new weapons that actually are good and up to standard of what weapons should be. The weapons are a overtuned but nothing that cant be fixed.

-Now imagine this HEAVILY overperforming elite spec gets a hold of these new amazing weapons and ruins the fun for everyone even more.

-The people who play the profession state the obvious issue of the elite spec being super oppressive and to handle that before balancing the new amazing weapons so we can actually get a fair scope of what the new weapons actually are capable of when not being abused by the super overperforming elite spec.

-The forums where the balance devs look for genuine information have a total kitten-fit and demand the new weapons get gutted, not fixing the overperforming elite spec causing the issue to begin with.

-The people who play the profession zealously plead for people to understand that this is a massive issue caused by the elite spec overperforming on every level and to handle that first so we get a genuine grasp of what the weapon should be capable of when not being abused.

-Balance devs listen to the incorrect feedback of the forums and guts the damage/utility of the new weapons by as much as 40% and nukes the healing potential of the other one.

-Super oppressive elite spec keeps using weapons, now with a little less effectiveness and just goes back to using its previous loadouts which are similarly oppressive (Hammer/dagger+shield).

-Rest of the profession now gets access to use a weapon thats balanced based on the super oppressive elite spec and cant effectively use it anymore. 

-The people who told you this would happen and that the elite spec would still overperform are bitter because the root issue wasnt fixed and the new weapon wasnt balanced fairly.

-No other spears that are overperforming are getting nerfed or even touched.

-The Elite spec thats overperforming is getting used and abused by everyone and their mother for free LP and rewards, community still complains. The profession mains that know what the issue is and are actively getting ignored/scorned laugh at the community for not understanding the basic concept of "cause and effect".

> You are here in the timeline. <

-Super oppressive spec gets even more buffs and the community reach a fever pitch with their complaining about it again.

-3 months later after the elite spec truely abused to the point where you cant ignore it anymore as a developer, the overperforming elite spec gets hard nerfed.

-The overperforming elite spec gets nerfed and no compensation buffs for the "new" weapon are provided to make it more viable for the rest of the profession and more build stagnation comes into effect.

This is as basic of an explanation that can be given, ive even provided a preview of whats going to happen in the future for your ease of understanding.
@Lan Deathrider.5910, @Azure The Heartless.3261, @Captain Crapface.7528, @Zekent.3652 tell me if I missed something.

Edited October 1 by WingSwipe.3084
Added Zeke to the responses and removed insulting parts.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

56 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

> Balance devs listen to the incorrect feedback of the forums and guts the damage/utility of the new weapons by as much as 40% and nukes the healing potential of the other one.

ABSOLUTELY GUTTED, UNPLAYABLE, DESTROYED!

[WingSwipe.3084]

18 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

ABSOLUTELY GUTTED, UNPLAYABLE, DESTROYED!

Compared to what the nerfs should have been, yes, Warriors spear was pretty gutted.

I understand that you get caught up on semantics so ill leave you to process that for a bit.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

ABSOLUTELY GUTTED, UNPLAYABLE, DESTROYED!

Okay. I understand y'all don't want to engage with the argument and want to keep trying to frame it as something it isn't, but keep that same energy when its your turn alright? Just remember we didn't heckle you when lock on and distortion got axed.

Spear was only fractionally useful on bladesworn and berserker, and now it's less so. The only class that was causing problems with it now uses it exclusively (because its functionality was unchanged and so it even works with nerfed spear.)

 

 

Edited September 30 by Azure The Heartless.3261