Anet If you make GW3 please don't do this again **minor spoilers of GW2 story**

[Vik.9617]

I hate how the story is told in GW2 it started out good, it turned to a story on rails rather quickly but they made one big mistake because the player end up having a "super unique" role in the story that you and ONLY you can have except that exact role is SHARED WITH EVERY OTHER PLAYER OF THE ENTIRE WORLD. This is extremely immersion breaking to me, because every player cannot be the one and only "commander" and I cringe every single time my character is being referred to by that word. Especially since I never wanted my character to be a commander, it took away my player sovereignty!

I think it would have been way better to focus more the main story characters and their struggles, then you are one of the heroes that helps them and share their journey. NEVER force a unique title onto the player as an individual unless he or she chose it (this is typically unfeasible in an MMOs), you define the players family, home and backstory that is fine but never define it more than that. The current story would have been fine had it been a single player game but it is not, this is an MMO.

Instead have the player(s) follow along give aid and maybe influence the other main story characters but never give the hero a unique call word other than "Hero(s)" or "Friend(s)". Take after GW1 where they heroes are called just that "heroes" and when they are defined they are done so in plural not singular. You can call players by their accomplishments like the heroes that defeated the XYZ threat but never ever use singular form like "the commander that defeated..." because it becomes immersion breaking unless it is a truly unique feat (but like I said, unfeasible in an MMO).

For the next game I propose to add an npc friend for story missions that is given stats chosen by the player so the player can be a healer if he or she wants and DPS if that is desired (remove the NPC if playing with other players). This serves two purposes firstly you will always be in a party thus you will always be referred to in plural secondly right now several of the challenges are only beatable if you run dps gear and I think that is wrong, this would potentially solve that problem.

The uniqueness of each player should be formed by the player in an MMO thus in the story I find it best to keep the player generic being referred to in plural as the heroes instead of having him or her put in a (oh so very) "unique" role predetermined by the developer team that is the same for every player. Unless you manage to find a way to let every player choose their unique role like having separate story lines through out the game(but I know that is unfeasible due to development times) I say keep the player generic in the story. Tell me I'm not the only one that has been bothered by this.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think they tried to do that for a while in the personal story and early living world seasons and players complained that characters like trahearne got all the credit, thus around heart of thorns it was completely inverted so the player was the main character and everyone else was extras so the player base would be satisfied.

 

if you asked most players on this forum or reddit they would rather all npcs just be removed from the game entirely.

Edited September 26 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[EDOTDOT.9265]

Personally, I think the story has been pretty boring so far.  If somebody were to ask me to name a memorable character from this game, I simply wouldn't be able to do it because they've all been quite forgettable.  On the other hand, if somebody were to ask me to name a memorable character from...say...Final Fantasy 14, I would easily recommend Emet-Selch.  World of Warcraft?  Arthas Menethil.  Heck, I can even remember Cadwell from Elder Scrolls Online!  Guild Wars 2?  It's a fairly amusing and actiony game but the story and characters have about as much flavor as tofu.

[Skub.8240]

It's funny you say that, OP, because post HoT it feels like the PC's story role, to me at least, has been increasingly irrelevant. Like the only reason we're even there anymore is because it's a video game and they need their player character; something that's only kind of emphasized in Living World Season 4 and IBS where it feels like Caithe should have been the one doing everything we do with Aurene since she's the super special chosen one, and in the big finale cutscene for IBS not only is the player character strategically replaced with NPCs like Koss for certain flashback scenes such as joko's demise - but the player character only shows up as a distant background character in the final cutscene where, instead, every NPC gets a big closeup. In fact, increasingly since HoT the player character is excluded from cutscenes all together, and more and more it feels like the NPCs are the only ones who matter. We're just there because we literally have to be for the game to exist.

[Danikat.8537]

The player character is not the only Pact Commander, it's one of the higher ranks but not unique. There's a few NPC Commanders mentioned in the story, but the main reason is for exactly this - so multiple people doing the story together can all be given the same rank without it causing problems.

Even after Season 3 when you get an even more unusual rank it's not unique.

Spoiler

Dragons have multiple champions. That's how we can keep killing Tequatl and the Shatterer and the others and they keep coming back, it's different ones each time. Likewise Aurene can have more than one champion. Caithe is the one who gets the unique role in that case.

 

[Dean Calaway.9718]

10 hours ago, Skub.8240 said:

player character strategically replaced with NPCs like Koss for certain flashback scenes

Plot twist, the commander died a long long time ago and we're just imagining we're still great heros, not knowing we're a dead ghost.

10 hours ago, Skub.8240 said:

increasingly since HoT the player character is excluded from cutscenes all together

From pre-rendered cuteness, for obvious reasons, they've just been doing more of those, all the ones the commander shows in are real time rendered.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 9/27/2024 at 3:14 AM, EDOTDOT.9265 said:

Personally, I think the story has been pretty boring so far.  If somebody were to ask me to name a memorable character from this game, I simply wouldn't be able to do it because they've all been quite forgettable.  On the other hand, if somebody were to ask me to name a memorable character from...say...Final Fantasy 14, I would easily recommend Emet-Selch.  World of Warcraft?  Arthas Menethil.  Heck, I can even remember Cadwell from Elder Scrolls Online!  Guild Wars 2?  It's a fairly amusing and actiony game but the story and characters have about as much flavor as tofu.

That's because you have a bad memory, skip everything, are watching videos on a second monitor, and/or do not play much of the game.

Merely doing a meta event or festival here and there should refresh your memory about a character.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

That's because you have a bad memory, skip everything, are watching videos on a second monitor, and/or do not play much of the game.

Merely doing a meta event or festival here and there should refresh your memory about a character.

The funny thing is how IIRC, outside of one expansion, Arthas did nothing really in WoW (directly).

But don't you love when people obviously just don't interact with the story or lore and then complain as if the story sucked, rather then they weren't interested to being with?

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 9/26/2024 at 5:00 PM, Vik.9617 said:

I hate how the story is told in GW2 it started out good, it turned to a story on rails rather quickly but they made one big mistake because the player end up having a "super unique" role in the story that you and ONLY you can have except that exact role is SHARED WITH EVERY OTHER PLAYER OF THE ENTIRE WORLD. This is extremely immersion breaking to me, because every player cannot be the one and only "commander" and I cringe every single time my character is being referred to by that word. Especially since I never wanted my character to be a commander, it took away my player sovereignty!

I think it would have been way better to focus more the main story characters and their struggles, then you are one of the heroes that helps them and share their journey. NEVER force a unique title onto the player as an individual unless he or she chose it (this is typically unfeasible in an MMOs), you define the players family, home and backstory that is fine but never define it more than that. The current story would have been fine had it been a single player game but it is not, this is an MMO.

Instead have the player(s) follow along give aid and maybe influence the other main story characters but never give the hero a unique call word other than "Hero(s)" or "Friend(s)". Take after GW1 where they heroes are called just that "heroes" and when they are defined they are done so in plural not singular. You can call players by their accomplishments like the heroes that defeated the XYZ threat but never ever use singular form like "the commander that defeated..." because it becomes immersion breaking unless it is a truly unique feat (but like I said, unfeasible in an MMO).

For the next game I propose to add an npc friend for story missions that is given stats chosen by the player so the player can be a healer if he or she wants and DPS if that is desired (remove the NPC if playing with other players). This serves two purposes firstly you will always be in a party thus you will always be referred to in plural secondly right now several of the challenges are only beatable if you run dps gear and I think that is wrong, this would potentially solve that problem.

The uniqueness of each player should be formed by the player in an MMO thus in the story I find it best to keep the player generic being referred to in plural as the heroes instead of having him or her put in a (oh so very) "unique" role predetermined by the developer team that is the same for every player. Unless you manage to find a way to let every player choose their unique role like having separate story lines through out the game(but I know that is unfeasible due to development times) I say keep the player generic in the story. Tell me I'm not the only one that has been bothered by this.

I don't really see that as an issue.  It's not like Trahearne ever gathers all of the players in the game and gives a speech addressed to "the commander collective".

[DarkK.7368]

On 9/27/2024 at 3:14 AM, EDOTDOT.9265 said:

Personally, I think the story has been pretty boring so far.  If somebody were to ask me to name a memorable character from this game, I simply wouldn't be able to do it because they've all been quite forgettable.  On the other hand, if somebody were to ask me to name a memorable character from...say...Final Fantasy 14, I would easily recommend Emet-Selch.  World of Warcraft?  Arthas Menethil.  Heck, I can even remember Cadwell from Elder Scrolls Online!  Guild Wars 2?  It's a fairly amusing and actiony game but the story and characters have about as much flavor as tofu.

I also remember Cadwell with love. But here I remember my loved Sieran, that freedom, happyness and curiosity, and it's sad fate. Trahearne is the most obvious one. Some may don't like it, but I love how serene, loyal and perseverant he is. The main party is pretty well developed (living world 1 and 2: Marjy, Kasmeer, Taimi, Braumm, Rox, Cannac), and also the old ones, that in Core were most forgotten unless you did its race storyline (Caithe specially). Taimi is my favourite, I love that little girl. The random conversations with radio give me life. Scarlet is another one I love, the crazy villain. I want to learn from her, my character is all-for-knowledge.

Even not story important characters only. I remember with happyness in Caledon's Forest, my first region, that girl that was bad at cooking and did all foods with the same ingredient, that you find...

Quote

Harvester (1): I was thinking that for dinner we could start with a spikefruit salad with crab, then the entree could be spikefruit-stuffed crab, with a spikefruit crab parfait for dessert.
Harvester (2): We really need to find a chef.

I went google it, I knew I remembered that part hahaha Just some little happyness.

It's hard to remember lesser character that have only a pair of lines, sure. But I still find joy there. I remember also places. In bloodtide coast, a small oasis between death, with water and plants, and an alchemist doing stuff, with a big norn that knew nothing about alchemy but decided to help her because was captivated by her duty in that place filled with risen. I remember the captain there of some pirates in northeast that sing a song that made me screenshot everyline. Captain penzan, according to google (I'm bad for names, I only remember the story).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Captain_Penzan

An amazing song. In this game, ambient dialogues that you have to actively pay attention (and can sometimes miss if doesn't trigger) is even more important or hilarious. That song alone makes that captain unforgettable for me.

List of nice characters I remember is endless, and I only reached PoF, but I should dig too deep in my memory and this post would go too lengthy.

And about story? Living World 1 for me is where it went better, specially in storytelling. I remember in 5th chapter, after defeating the marionette, when all characters are gathered in the same lion's arch corner, and they speak in a succession, intertwinning dialogues (one by one), and knowing more about rox new goal, about bramms concern, the growing relation  between Taimi and Bramm that I also love and Logan doing its responsable duties...

TL;DR: Sorry man, gotta read.

Edited October 1 by DarkK.7368

[Geoff Fey.1035]

On 9/26/2024 at 5:26 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think they tried to do that for a while in the personal story and early living world seasons and players complained that characters like trahearne got all the credit, thus around heart of thorns it was completely inverted so the player was the main character and everyone else was extras so the player base would be satisfied.

You hit the nail on the head.

Personal story 1-80 is more the story of Trahearne. The Commander's perspective and rise from obscurity basically just being a narrative lens into Trahearne's story. You follow Trahearne travelling around trying to make people understand the threat of the Elder Dragons, join him when he receives Caladbolg from the Pale Tree, assist him retaking Claw Island and are instrumental in the formation of the Pact, and assist with the completion of his Wyld Hunt by cleansing Orr and defeating Zhaitan.

A lot of players in the beginning started comparing Trahearne to Kormir, where the player did all the heavy lifting but the big kudos goes to them for saving the world. Heart of Thorns had its narrative problems (rushed design, cutting Malyck, cutting Nightmare Court plotline, etc.) but it absolutely flipped the story on its head in the final act when you have to execute the Marshall.

Back at the time a lot of players were freaking out and really hyped up because the focus of the story shifted back to the Commander

The story has had its ups and downs since then but overall the focus has been on the player being the character of importance bringing about an end to various conflicts rather than simply being a trusted (and powerful) ally of a more important figure.

In Janthir Wilds we're seeing a slightly similar development where instead of being a stooge of the Astral Ward, the Commander is started to do things their own way once again.

[Kalavier.1097]

16 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

You hit the nail on the head.

Personal story 1-80 is more the story of Trahearne. The Commander's perspective and rise from obscurity basically just being a narrative lens into Trahearne's story. You follow Trahearne travelling around trying to make people understand the threat of the Elder Dragons, join him when he receives Caladbolg from the Pale Tree, assist him retaking Claw Island and are instrumental in the formation of the Pact, and assist with the completion of his Wyld Hunt by cleansing Orr and defeating Zhaitan.

A lot of players in the beginning started comparing Trahearne to Kormir, where the player did all the heavy lifting but the big kudos goes to them for saving the world.

People just where unable to stand being anything then the main big hero, and completely ignored the fact that Trahearne frequently dumps praise on you and credits you for victories.

It's not the story of trahearne, it's that the Commander goes from being in a small pool of characters to a much larger one, and is still a key figure in making things work.

So many people outright lie about Trahearne for some reason.

[Kulvar.1239]

People disliked Trahearne not because he was the MC, but because he's a scholar, not a general.

[voltaicbore.8012]

It's a pipe dream, but I would simply like the option of being a faceless nobody in Tyria. While anyone can of course simply choose not to complete story on any character (several of mine haven't), if I'm not mistaken some NPCs will still call out to you as "Commander." It would be nice if the code could be updated such that the game would know if a character has completed various title-granting story episodes, and then would simply have the NPCs never call you out directly if certain flags aren't present. If my street urchin thief (who's never commanded anything, or found their way to anything other than trouble) is just treated with suspicious silence throughout the Lowlands, that would be perfect.

I think asking for anything beyond that is difficult. The sheer amount of possibilities make branching storylines essentially unworkable as the story pushes farther, and I'd rather have an honestly unified/simplified storyline rather than a dumb one that annoys me with constant "illusion of choice" fakeouts.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 9/26/2024 at 7:26 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think they tried to do that for a while in the personal story and early living world seasons and players complained that characters like trahearne got all the credit, thus around heart of thorns it was completely inverted so the player was the main character and everyone else was extras so the player base would be satisfied.

Pretty much.

When ANet made the PC the Chosen One, people complained about being one of many Chosen Ones. When Anet made the PC one of many, people complained about not being the Chosen One.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

People disliked Trahearne not because he was the MC, but because he's a scholar, not a general.

Factually untrue, people's complaints about Trahearne was that he "stole the credit" for the PC's actions - despite this being objectively false as he constantly praises the PC for their jobs done. The only "exception" that rings remotely true to the examples presented over the many years is that he doesn't actively credit the PC for the name of Fort Trinity and says "I decided on" that name (but that's not him taking credit, it's him having the final say on the name).

But the complaints have ALWAYS been that Trahearne was stealing credit, not that "he's a scholar, not a general". That kind of complaint only came after HoT and the support of Trahearne becoming more vocal after his death in the plot.

[Sznurek.8791]

I feel like the Trahearne comparison to Kormir is spot-on. 

It's not just that he takes credit, you do it with him and by game mechanics he is lame and weak so carry the whole team.

It would feel different if you would have a big boss fight, in which he fights him alone while you are doing side mechanics and join the fight for the final push tipping the balance of the fight in his favour.

In gw1 this issue was a bit smaller because NPC's were more active (not perfect though, and you absolutely had a chosen one there), the player felt that they are doing something. Especially in low level zones when you were level ~7 and the NPC helping you was level 15. You could feel that he is the master who you are joining in a quest. (and this naturally changes throughout the game when you level up).


I personally think player should be a non-major character who joins big guys in crucial moments to tip the balance of the fight. (GW2 was quite close to making that during the Balthasar vs Kralk fight, sadly some details like dialogues were off imo and suggested something else).
I think that GW2 just didn't execute it well enough.

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 10/1/2024 at 11:10 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Factually untrue, people's complaints about Trahearne was that he "stole the credit" for the PC's actions - despite this being objectively false as he constantly praises the PC for their jobs done. The only "exception" that rings remotely true to the examples presented over the many years is that he doesn't actively credit the PC for the name of Fort Trinity and says "I decided on" that name (but that's not him taking credit, it's him having the final say on the name).

But the complaints have ALWAYS been that Trahearne was stealing credit, not that "he's a scholar, not a general". That kind of complaint only came after HoT and the support of Trahearne becoming more vocal after his death in the plot.

Makes me wonder how things would have gone if Anet kept their original plans to include a Companion for our character who is always with us gameplay wise. 

If I remember right, they originally wanted to bring the GW1 NPC Hero companion system back in GW2 during development but reduce it to 1 companion per player with some mechanics to help players who chosen to play GW2 without the companion to balance out players who play with a Hero companion and those who solo when out in the world map. Of course this was scrapped during GW2 development for reasons unknown to us but most likely they could not get it to work mechanic wise and balance wise. 


Thinking about this, I won't be surprised if a future expansion bring in the Hero Companion system if they manage to make it work and chosen heroes players won't mind having for a Mastery in a expansion. 

Edited October 7 by EdwinLi.1284

[anninke.7469]

11 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Makes me wonder how things would have gone if Anet kept their original plans to include a Companion for our character who is always with us gameplay wise. 

If I remember right, they originally wanted to bring the GW1 NPC Hero companion system back in GW2 during development but reduce it to 1 companion per player with some mechanics to help players who chosen to play GW2 without the companion to balance out players who play with a Hero companion and those who solo when out in the world map. Of course this was scrapped during GW2 development for reasons unknown to us but most likely they could not get it to work mechanic wise and balance wise. 


Thinking about this, I won't be surprised if a future expansion bring in the Hero Companion system if they manage to make it work and chosen heroes players won't mind having for a Mastery in a expansion. 

Imo, the companion would:

either have to be the same person for all players and then could have lore significance, but probably end up another Kormir/Trahearne,

or have to be even more on the bland side than the Commander, with no lore significance at all.

Edited October 8 by anninke.7469

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, anninke.7469 said:

Imo, the companion would:

either have to be the same person for all players and then could have lore significance, but probably end up another Kormir/Trahearne,

or have to be even more on the bland side than the Commander, with no lore significance at all.

Eh. One could say that the warband member you choose at the start of a charr PC might have been a leftover of what that system could have been. The warband members definitely have character, but you could choose which to take. Or they could have taken an approach similar to GW1 heroes, where everybody pulled from the same pool of heroes (mercenaries aside, but I never invested in mercenary slots), but every so often there was a hero or henchman that had to be around, one way or another, because at that point in the story you were helping the NPC to do something rather than the other way around. There are ways to thread that proverbial needle.

[swayne.3259]

On 9/30/2024 at 5:33 AM, Skub.8240 said:

in the big finale cutscene for IBS not only is the player character strategically replaced with NPCs like Koss for certain flashback scenes such as joko's demise

That wasn't Koss. Koss is very notably an Awakened, and the individual in the pre-EoD recap is most certainly not awakened. That was Duncan, one of the many stand-ins used by Anet over the years to represent the Commander.

A couple other examples are: Anja in Icebrood Saga, Eun in End of Dragons, and Escalous in Secrets of the Obscure. There's been others as well for each expansion and Living World release, but they're unnamed.