I honestly think the addition of elite specs to the game was a design mistake

[HeadCrowned.6834]

Ofcouse it was a mistake to implement elite specializations. The name of it (''elite'') already implies that its more powerful than ''regular'' specializations.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

Agree. The game was much better pre 2015. They should nerf the elite specs to make em equal to the regular specs. Allow the usage of elite spec weapons on any spec and call it a day. Less power creep and more build variety with new weapons on any spec.

[Dreams.3128]

I honestly just want Anet to pull weapons off of elite specs and let us have more weapon variety. Kinda stupid having a weapon attached to a very specific elite line.

I'm pretty sure the game won't break since it's usually never the weapons that are absolutely broken on the specs it's ALWAYS either the traits or the mechanics that the elite spec brings.

[pah.4931]

The REAL problem is the separation of Condi vs. Power (and Anet's unbelievably flawed design philosophy regarding them both).

Which in turn causes more power creep than it should (how do you make a new condi-based elite that's different than current condi-based spec?? You make it better) ... they cornered themselves from a design perspective.

Damage should just be damage (one stat/set of gear) and there should be some abilities that do condis and some that hit harder, and "DPS" for all specs should be balanced to be as equal as possible.

If damage was just damage, you could create elite specs based on flavor and coolness, and not have to worry so much about the "role" they would play in each game mode. Min/maxing is going to happen... certain classes are going to fall behind at times (it happens in all games)... but this either/or philosophy, stacked with their Condi must do more DPS, stacked with their "new elite spec must fill new role" philosophy... all this has left us in the state we are in.

[aelska.4609]

One of the biggest mistake was the change of the traits system. Coming down from being able to pick up almost freely traits from a pool of 60 traits to having to pick one amongst 3 totally killed the build diversity and was at the root of "stuffs having a reterded amongst of effects" (traits have to be more powerful since there are less of them ...). The previous design was already flawed, but the actual one is way worse.

The non-stopping auction of "which skill do we have to buff to change the actual meta" instead of giving nerfs to the meta also widely contributes to ruin this game. The balance team is sadly not performing professionally enough to entrave the disaster that comes with each expansion.

[Azoqu.8917]

@"Loop.8106" said:I get that you don't want any class but mesmer being able to have access to blinks, invulns, clones and whatever else you've been complaining about since PoF dropped, but it's time to see Guildwars for what it actually is. Research before posting, and stop drawing simularities to Dungeons and Dragons.

You see, if you wanted to remove all of those blinks and that from Guardian, then Mesmer in return would have to get stripped of all of it's buffing capability since "boons" and "support" are supposed to be the identity of the Guardian. But here we are with the "support" class having to rock out at a burst class.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport abilityMany areas of this game are similar to Dungeons and Dragons. That game has always emphasized balance. If you're wearing heavy plate, you don't also get to blink.I still contend that it's illogical for a heavy armored tank to also have high mobility teleports.

Yet OoV paladins are both heavy armour and get access to misty step which is instantaneous and a bonus action so you can still attack. This analogy/argument doesn't really fit. I also only see you complaining when another class gets something similar to mesmer, with a feel/spin for their own class theme, but never the other way around.

You seem very focused on the similarities instead of the differences in abilities. They clearly have their pros and cons.You're also too focused on armour weight and over defining it to what a class should be.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Azoqu.8917 said:

@"Loop.8106" said:I get that you don't want any class but mesmer being able to have access to blinks, invulns, clones and whatever else you've been complaining about since PoF dropped, but it's time to see Guildwars for what it actually is. Research before posting, and stop drawing simularities to Dungeons and Dragons.

You see, if you wanted to remove all of those blinks and that from Guardian, then Mesmer in return would have to get stripped of all of it's buffing capability since "boons" and "support" are supposed to be the identity of the Guardian. But here we are with the "support" class having to rock out at a burst class.

What buffing capabilities? Boon Share Mesmer was heavily nerfed and is practically a unicorn in PvP.

[Ithilwen.1529]

deleted the post

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:My least favorite example of this is the

heavy

Guardian that has the kind of teleport abilityMany areas of this game are similar to Dungeons and Dragons. That game has always emphasized balance.

If you're wearing heavy plate, you don't also get to blink.

I still contend that it's illogical for a heavy armored tank to also have high mobility teleports.

Yet OoV paladins are both heavy armour and get access to misty step which is instantaneous and a bonus action so you can still attack. This analogy/argument doesn't really fit. I also only see you complaining when another class gets something similar to mesmer, with a feel/spin for their own class theme, but never the other way around.

You seem very focused on the similarities instead of the differences in abilities. They clearly have their pros and cons.You're also too focused on armour weight and over defining it to what a class should be.

It's quite true that there exceptions. Players in that game are well known for an uncanny ability to find loopholes. It is also quite true that DMs are encouraged to ban or ignore methods that give a player excessive advantage.

My point is that the elite specs have made classes too alike.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@witcher.3197 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Fluffball.8307 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the

heavy

Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief.

It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

Guardians have had multiple teleports since launch.

I still contend that it's illogical for a heavy armored tank to also have high mobility teleports.

GW2 doesn't have "heavy armored tanks". Heavy armor is little more than flavor. Difference between light and heavy in gw2 is what, 300 toughness? Please.

And you are zoning in on mobility a little too much. Mesmer has portal. Mesmer has stealth. Mesmer has ground targeted teleports. Mesmer has mini-invulnerability on sword. None of the heavy professions have access to these things.

I agree with most of what you're saying

(not everyone should be able to do everything), but you are needlessly harsh on Guard just because it's usually a counter to mesmer, which you main.

I didn't intend to focus on Guardian.. I was making a comment to illustrate a larger point. My comments have been taken out of context and focused.

[Saiyan.1704]

The traditional Light, Medium, Heavy armor weaknesses never really applied for Guild Wars 2. Yes, PoF made it even more irrelevant but that's the entire purpose of Elite Specializations. I just wish there was deeper in-game lore that explained this, like a Ranger NPC who taught his skills to a Guardian and created "The Dragonhunters" instead of Guardians spontaneously develop this "dragon witch hunter" persona... choosing bow and traps as if the very name conjured the items.

[Sarrs.4831]

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Not 7 classes, 7 very specific builds that act in very specific ways. In some cases with other specific classes that are also interacting in very specific ways.

Therein lies the problem. With this level of specialization, what we called "min/max'ing" in D&D, pretty much everything else is pushed out. I contend that this situation is not healthy for the game.

It also means that very small changes in the system will tend to have a ripple effect and cause large changes. When a system is so heavily optimized, anything outside that envelope is going to perform very poorly.

Sorry, I am seeing bad logic here.Classes act in specific ways, combo with other classes in specific ways, and are countered in specific ways. This is completely normal and healthy class design.Therefore problem? Everything is pushed out - I do not see it? And the assertion that minmaxing is unhealthy also seems like bad logic to me; it is a competitive environment and people will seek the best tools to do the job. You seek to play in a highly competitive arena but do not want to be actually running a competitive build?We also do have trailblazers who are at the top level of play who do not use 'meta' builds so to say that everything else is pushed out appears counterintuitive. If you have the skill to back it up, you can play what you like.

Small changes in a balance ecosystem rippling and causing large changes may be the reality but you have not constructed an argument to suggest this is a bad thing. If everything is so tightly tuned that all it would take is a minor buff to that build for it to become an apex predator, ANet's balancing is insanely good. Remember there is always a buff that you can apply to your class, build and skills without even posting on the forums: Practicing to get better at the game.

[Buran.3796]

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:

A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief. It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

That's non sense.First of all, in this game the difference in armor from cloth classes to metal armor plates is less than 300 stat points, in a game in which some builds can reach 4k+ total armor points. So armor is essentially meaningless. Or better said: was meaningless since the inception of the game, but makes even less sense since the implementation of outfits (so your "frail" celestial Tempest can wear the mighty cuirass of Balthazar).

Second, you're complaining about a heavy armored class as the Guardian having a teleport (while being the Guardian one of the slowest classes in the game, being fated to use Traveller runes since forever), but meanwhile your mesmer (a classical caster class) wields two handed swords like Conan The Destroyer (but being able to shoot lazers from it) due reasons. ANet designed their own oddities from the start, is too late to complain.

An third, not only not every class or spec is able to do everything but some ones are arguably bad at everything. I'll tal about the one I main: the Herald (because the Revenat or its spec the Renegade doesn't even exist in PvP): where's our tank? Our bruiser? Our support build? Our condi dps? I least I known that in the bast, before the nerfs, we were a successful dps spike/+1 class. But now we have 0 builds in the meta (but I'm not moaning, frankly the more the times passes the least I care about the game).

[Burnfall.9573]

@Buran.3796 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:

A secondary problem is that now virtually every class can do everything. My least favorite example of this is the

heavy

Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief.

It's illogical for a heavy tank to also have high mobility.

That's non sense.First of all, in this game the difference in armor from cloth classes to metal armor plates is less than 300 stat points, in a game in which some builds can reach 4k+ total armor points. So armor is essentially meaningless. Or better said: was meaningless since the inception of the game, but makes even less sense since the implementation of outfits (so your "frail" celestial Tempest can wear the mighty cuirass of Balthazar).

Second, you're complaining about a heavy armored class as the Guardian having a teleport (while being the Guardian one of the slowest classes in the game, being fated to use Traveller runes since forever), but meanwhile your mesmer (a classical caster class) wields two handed swords like Conan The Destroyer (but being able to shoot lazers from it) due reasons. ANet designed their own oddities from the start, is too late to complain.

An third, not only not every class or spec is able to do everything but some ones are arguably bad at everything. I'll tal about the one I main: the Herald (because the Revenat or its spec the Renegade doesn't even exist in PvP): where's our tank? Our bruiser? Our support build? Our condi dps? I least I known that in the bast, before the nerfs, we were a successful dps spike/+1 class. But now we have 0 builds in the meta (but I'm not moaning, frankly the more the times passes the least I care about the game).

I stand by Ithilwen statement.

'Guardians specialize in protective and defensive magic. A deep sense of loyalty to their allies fuels their passion and power. As a soldier profession, guardians wear heavy armor'

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guardian

' Soldier Profession '

• 'Soldier is a category for the three heavy armor professions. They take the role of traditional frontline combatants in the game, possessing heavy armor and a wide variety of close range weapons. Lore-wise they are distinct in terms of weapons, skills, combat roles and gameplay in general, they are characterized by their use of heavy armor, their preference of close quarters combat, and their mastery over the arts of war and leadership'

Soldier Professions

• Warrior
• Guardian

'The soldier profession is for those who want to stand right in the frontline of battle. Soldiers are in the thick of battle and work hard to control it, avoiding damage, supporting allies, and dealing the pain right back at their enemies. Control is critical to both soldier professions'

'Front line soldiers are courageous, they put their life in the line of fire and face death head on'

Giving Guardian teleport, high mobility defies every meaning of them of being a soldier profession

[Aktium.9506]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:My least favorite example of this is the heavy Guardian that has the kind of teleport ability that once gave a reason to play Mesmer and Thief.judges intervention and flashing blade has been in the game since launch tho

neither has anything at all to do with elite specs and mediguard has been a staple build for the class ever since a few months into the game when people realized guardians didnt have to play bunker only

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Not 7 classes, 7 very specific builds that act in very specific ways. In some cases

with

other specific classes that are also interacting in very specific ways.

Therein lies the problem.

With this level of specialization, what we called "min/max'ing" in D&D, pretty much everything else is pushed out.

I contend that this situation is not healthy for the game.

It also means that very small changes in the system will tend to have a ripple effect and cause large changes.

When a system is so heavily optimized, anything outside that envelope is going to perform very poorly.

Sorry, I am seeing bad logic here.Classes act in specific ways, combo with other classes in specific ways, and are countered in specific ways. This is completely normal and healthy class design.Therefore problem? Everything is pushed out - I do not see it? And the assertion that minmaxing is unhealthy also seems like bad logic to me; it is a competitive environment and people will seek the best tools to do the job. You seek to play in a highly competitive arena but do not want to be actually running a competitive build?We also do have trailblazers who are at the top level of play who do not use 'meta' builds so to say that everything else is pushed out appears counterintuitive. If you have the skill to back it up, you can play what you like.

Small changes in a balance ecosystem rippling and causing large changes may be the reality but you have not constructed an argument to suggest this is a bad thing. If everything is so tightly tuned that all it would take is a minor buff to that build for it to become an apex predator, ANet's balancing is insanely good. Remember there is always a buff that you can apply to your class, build and skills without even posting on the forums: Practicing to get better at the game.

I don't agree. Making only a small minority of a game's classes competitive is not healthy. As to "insanely good" balance, I'd agree if the situation applied to all specs. It doesn't.

The situation makes the learning curve steeper. In many cases, pve skills do not transfer to PvP. This makes attracting and keeping players more difficult.

Any time a minority is favored, it is detrimental to the community. The so-called "meta" classes naturally favor a specific play style and hence specific people.

In the past, classes seem to have been adjusted to suit the "Pro League." That didn't work well and it's worth taking a lesson from history.

[Buran.3796]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:

Giving Guardian teleport, high mobility defies every meaning of them of being a soldier profession

Having 11k base HP defies any meaning of them being "traditional frontline combatants", and the last time I checked it out Thieves, Mesmers, Warriors, Rangers and Engineers had no problems at all disengaging from Guardians in combat, so I don't see the "high mobility" you talk in the Guardians.