Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Faaris.8013]

@Fallesafe.5932 You forgot Mai Trin ^^

Yesterday I tried it with 2 different pugs and changing members for more than an hour. I did it then twice with different guild mates and it was smooth. My guess is that Mai Trin falls in line with Shattered Observatory and Twilight Oasis when it comes to wipes and rage quitting.

Only thing missing from Mai Trin is Vindicators :D

[Eramonster.2718]

From my experience of PuG'ing for t4, Nightmare and Shattered Observatory will take longer compared to a fully organized group with possible 0-3 wipes tops. Almost have no problem with Thauma tho?(heat room?)

But I do find it hard to pug randoms for Mai Tirin but still trying to work a way around it. I do agree it's much more easier with a healer present. And for Oasis ; mostly due to wipes at Balthazar. It's usually the Vindicators causing a domino effect there.

[Faaris.8013]

@Eramonster.2718 said:From my experience of PuG'ing for t4, Nightmare and Shattered Observatory will take longer compared to a fully organized group with possible 0-3 wipes tops. Almost have no problem with Thauma tho?(heat room?)

Subject 6 ^^

[Ryze.2891]

Dam this thread is still alive? The solution to the problem in which other players already wrote "make your own lfg" why is that so hard to do tell me? and most of you ignore those. Why make a post like this i just dont understand, these posts keep reappearing every year.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now.... [etc etc etc]

I'm sure you're exaggerating the situation a lot. But I'm sympathetic to people who want to form groups with some standards. Because most t4 pugs are dreadful, and frustrating to the uttermost. Try this experiement... Next time you see a daily Nightmare, Thaumanova, or Shattered observatory, join a group with no specific requirements (i.e. "all welcome," "chill run," "casual run" etc), and see if you don't wipe at least half a dozen times.

I'm by NO means an elitist or an elite player. But people drive me out my mind with their terribleness. And I totally understand why somebody would just want to write LFGs that intimidate bad players from joining.

Already there with ya bud. I posted a video a few pages back where I join the very first PUG group I see with no requirements and then carry their raid metas through the fractals because they were not so experienced. When they leave after first 2 fractals, I make my own group named: "T4 Chaos All Bads Welcome - I Will Carry You" and players join who needed to be carried and I carried them. 39 minute completion while having no competent players in the party other than myself.

It's not really a big deal if you are a true champion.

[Evellynn Capone.6584]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:"T4 Chaos All Bads Welcome - I Will Carry You" and players join who needed to be carried and I carried them. 39 minute completion while having no competent players in the party other than myself.It's not really a big deal if you are a true champion.

Its ur choice how to finish T4 Fractals.

Atleast stop Judge over effective PPL.This thread can be closed. He got enough Answers...

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I actually never asked a question. I just made broad statements that invite conjecture on the topic.

[Fallesafe.5932]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now.... [etc etc etc]

I'm sure you're exaggerating the situation a lot. But I'm sympathetic to people who want to form groups with some standards. Because most t4 pugs are dreadful, and frustrating to the uttermost. Try this experiement... Next time you see a daily Nightmare, Thaumanova, or Shattered observatory, join a group with no specific requirements (i.e. "all welcome," "chill run," "casual run" etc), and see if you don't wipe at least half a dozen times.

I'm by NO means an elitist or an elite player. But people drive me out my mind with their terribleness. And I totally understand why somebody would just want to write LFGs that intimidate bad players from joining.

Already there with ya bud. I posted a video a few pages back where I join the very first PUG group I see with no requirements and then carry their raid metas through the fractals because they were not so experienced. When they leave after first 2 fractals, I make my own group named: "T4 Chaos All Bads Welcome - I Will Carry You" and players join who needed to be carried and I carried them. 39 minute completion while having no competent players in the party other than myself.

It's not really a big deal if you are a true champion.

That's great, I love it! Now that I don't need anything else from the fractals (i.e. collections, achievements, etc), I spend more time helping new players through them than any other thing in game. But I still stand by my earlier comment... There are people coming home from work with like an hour and a half to play. They don't have time to run training camps every day. And they've got every right to form the sort of groups that will be as efficient as possible.

I'll go back and watch the video you mentioned. But I have a hard time believing you were able to help bad players through some of the harder fractals for average pugs to complete. Because there's nothing you can do to make other people dodge. And I doubt they were all sitting there dead waiting for you to solo Arkk, Ensolyss, etc. Helping people is an awesome and rewarding thing. But nobody is obliged to spend their time that way.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:39 minute completion while having no competent players in the party other than myself.It's not really a big deal if you are a true champion.

You can do both challenge modes + dailies in that time depending on the dailies. Some people just enjoy efficiency. Thats not even limited to games.And it's not like dps meters made high level fractals like that. I remember old 50s to be incredible toxic. If one player just didn't know what to do in swamp or if he wasn't using berserker he would be kicked and not carried through it.I would rather wait 20min for a group watching streams than spending 20min + on oasis with a terrible pug. If people enjoy killing all the trash they can do it but shouldn't expect from everyone to do it the brainless way.And killing trash is the brainless way. You need tactics and strategies to do stuff fast. Killing everything with button mashing is ok if you do it once but not if you did the fractal 10000 times already.And if you are used to a good group doing chaos endboss the kiting way is just painful. Normally you just attack and kill him in ~30sec but with a pug that fight alone can last multiple minutes.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Eramonster.2718 said:From my experience of PuG'ing for t4, Nightmare and Shattered Observatory will take longer compared to a fully organized group with possible 0-3 wipes tops. Almost have no problem with Thauma tho?(heat room?)

But I do find it hard to pug randoms for Mai Tirin but still trying to work a way around it. I do agree it's much more easier with a healer present. And for Oasis ; mostly due to wipes at Balthazar. It's usually the Vindicators causing a domino effect there.

Bah, i solo heat room, and when i'm not soloing it, my brother is. Druid and Mesmer can easily solo that room.The hardest thing on Thauma with low dps/newbie players is Subject 6.Nightmare is quite easy, if people have enough CC it's doable even with low dps.Mai trin can be a pain in the butt.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now.... [etc etc etc]

I'm sure you're exaggerating the situation a lot. But I'm sympathetic to people who want to form groups with some standards. Because most t4 pugs are dreadful, and frustrating to the uttermost. Try this experiement... Next time you see a daily Nightmare, Thaumanova, or Shattered observatory, join a group with no specific requirements (i.e. "all welcome," "chill run," "casual run" etc), and see if you don't wipe at least half a dozen times.

I'm by NO means an elitist or an elite player. But people drive me out my mind with their terribleness. And I totally understand why somebody would just want to write LFGs that intimidate bad players from joining.

Already there with ya bud. I posted a video a few pages back where I join the very first PUG group I see with no requirements and then carry their raid metas through the fractals because they were not so experienced. When they leave after first 2 fractals, I make my own group named: "T4 Chaos All Bads Welcome - I Will Carry You" and players join who needed to be carried and I carried them. 39 minute completion while having no competent players in the party other than myself.

It's not really a big deal if you are a true champion.

That's great, I love it! Now that I don't need anything else from the fractals (i.e. collections, achievements, etc), I spend more time helping new players through them than any other thing in game. But I still stand by my earlier comment... There are people coming home from work with like an hour and a half to play. They don't have time to run training camps every day. And they've got every right to form the sort of groups that will be as efficient as possible.

I'll go back and watch the video you mentioned. But I have a hard time believing you were able to help bad players through some of the harder fractals for average pugs to complete. Because there's nothing you can do to make other people dodge. And I doubt they were all sitting there dead waiting for you to solo Arkk, Ensolyss, etc. Helping people is an awesome and rewarding thing. But nobody is obliged to spend their time that way.

So I play Scourge right. If I notice the group is sort of bad, I swap on Trailblazer over Viper and it allows me to solo all content aside from mechanics that require multiple players "like underground facility standing on panels and using mechanism to open door". I'm not joking though, I can just solo shit like Arkk "NM" if I have to. Haven't tried to solo CM bosses on 100 yet though, but I can solo all other content and I mean all of it, including 99CM bosses "discluding Siax of course" again, this is if I have to and not preferably.

Contrary to Raid Elitist belief, you'd be surprised what a good Scourge can do with epidemic and all of the other janky tools it has at its disposal.

[Faaris.8013]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Contrary to Raid Elitist belief, you'd be surprised what a good Scourge can do with epidemic and all of the other janky tools it has at its disposal.

Nah, it's well-known by now. It's just as Nephalem says, nobody ain't got no time for that!

[Geisterlicht.6083]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I actually never asked a question. I just made broad statements that invite conjecture on the topic.

Alright, I can see where you are coming from.If you have to run fractals with bad people you can adapt to it and improve the situation. This can be done with any profession - some more successful, than others.When you do this, the most important part is your own skill: How well you know the encounter - and how skilled you are.It can be a fun thing, if you are in the right mood for it.

I absolutely believe you, that you can solo fractal bosses on your Scourge - it currently is the easiest profession to solo bosses with.

Now see my point of view:The thing comes down to fun, flow and that feeling of progression.I play this game since its release. That means five years of fractals. Oh right, I agree there was some downtime - lets say three and a half years of fractals.That is multiple THOUSANDS of fractals that I have played through in my GW2 Journey so far.During that time I have carried all kind of crazy people. And I even got carried by others on bad days - such is life.

I have all the skins I want, and overall I have no real goals in this game anymore. Yes that's right - I don't farm fractals for gold - I do it because it is fun to me.At a point in all that time, I discovered that I have a lot of fun in optimizing my gameplay: Getting better at my rotations, using as few dodges as possible, tryharding as much as I can.

Without DPS meters I would have left this game by now.Really, they allow me to observe my performance and provide me with the feeling of "progression", - even when no meaningful progression was made.A number on a screen.That feeling of "success" after you defeated a boss - that you killed 1000 times in before.

All this works because of that state of flow, that I can get into, when everything aligns.Somehow it is easier to get into this "flow", when I have a team that tries as hard as it can - and I get bigger numbers, you know.

And you know the best part of it?This is only possible because of four other likeminded people that want to be as efficient, as they can.It does not need to be the performance of a static. That is too much to ask for.But if I have 100% Quickness, 25might, good Alacrity and whatsoever, I can compare myself to my own numbers.

So if I feel like it, I can put up an lfg with "99+100CM +T4, 200+kp, 1 druid 1 chrono 1 BS 1 exp DPS, f&p", and wait for 15 minutes for my lfg to fill.If I do get the right people - great! I can tryhard and see how much fun I have in doing so.If I do not feel like it, I might decide to join a random yolocomp, that is stuck at a boss and carry their asses to victory. Using a build that allows me to do so.

I join two kind of teams in LFG: - a) the toxic elitist ones - and b) the ones that are stuck @Boss.

I have had the chance to solo the last 30% of Arkk CM inb4, and it was one of the most entertaining things that I have done in this game so far.And guess what - it was for the 2nd kind (b). They were stuck @Boss in LFG for two hours, with the weirdest teamcomp I could imagine.

I do not join a random pug to see what kind of a pug it is. I choose my pugs.

And so do others.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Gordyjjang.7685 Do you realize how many times you just used the word elite to describe multiple different things? Essentially what you just did was this:

• You are CAKE but I'd rather go play with CAKES than be carried by a CAKE. You are a hypocrite CAKE. Not all CAKES are good players but some of them are.

I think someone should google the definition of the word CAKE or refer to my video posted on the definition of the word CAKE, earlier in this thread. Either way, thank you for the overly aggressive post. It wouldn't be a real forum without people like you.

[Faaris.8013]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Gordyjjang.7685 Do you realize how many times you just used the word elite to describe multiple different things? Essentially what you just did was this:

• You are CAKE but I'd rather go play with CAKES than be carried by a CAKE. You are a hypocrite CAKE. Not all CAKES are good players but some of them are.

I think someone should google the definition of the word CAKE or refer to my video posted on the definition of the word CAKE, earlier in this thread. Either way, thank you for the overly aggressive post. It wouldn't be a real forum without people like you.

Well Gordyjjang got a point there. You are bragging with your carrying skills, and look down on players who don't want to play that way. You believe we are unable to do that because we lack the skill, that we are incompetent to do so. You even created a video of yourself to show off. You think you are a better player than the people who use meta builds and prefer meta compositions. That makes you an elitist.

In reality, and I have written that several times here, many players, and I include myself here, don't want to play the way you prefer. The whole idea of spending 39 minutes in the Chaos fractal is just crazy. Why would you do that to yourself? You probably feel superior when your team mates get downed around you all the time while you keep going. If you joined a real meta group with your trailblazer gear, you wouldn't feel that superior because you would slow down the run and might even be kicked. You pick groups with players who run meta builds where they shouldn't, and that makes it easy for you to appear strong.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Bragging? Never once bragged. I made a point and provided evidence towards the OP post that running elite raid meta specs is secondary to a player who knows mechanics and they certainly aren't necessary for completing T4 dailies. Looking down on other players? I simply made a broad statement that elite raid meta specs are not necessary for completing T4 dailies. I believe you can't do something? Where in the hell did I once mention anything about anyone not being able to do something? 90% of this thread is directly comparing T4 daily completions speeds between waiting for an elite raid meta group or just PUGing the first group you see. Now I am an elitist? Well thank you, because I certainly don't take that as an insult. Spend 39 minutes in the chaos fractal? Did you watch the video? I spent 39 minutes in 3 different fractals, including downtime to form a 2nd party once the first left after the 2nd fractal because they didn't need the 3rd. Do I feel superior when I solo something like CM Ensolyss when my entire party is downed? Yes I do. Oh and when I run with elite raid meta groups, I use power DH or sometimes Heal Druid/Chrono if requested.

GOOGLE: Psychological ProjectionAnd ask yourself why you are so upset about things that I never said?

[Faaris.8013]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Did you watch the video? I spent 39 minutes in 3 different fractals, including downtime to form a 2nd party once the first left after the 2nd fractal because they didn't need the 3rd.

Ehm no, I don't watch a video of you playing fractals. Sorry, I misread your statement in an earlier post, quote:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:When they leave after first 2 fractals, I make my own group named: "T4 Chaos All Bads Welcome - I Will Carry You" and players join who needed to be carried and I carried them. 39 minute completion while having no competent players in the party other than myself.

It's not really a big deal if you are a true champion.

It sounded like you spent 39 minutes in Chaos. Oh and btw this is also an example of you looking down on other players and saying they aren't able to do something, and also of you bragging.

However, I'm surprised that my post appeared to you as me being upset, or maybe even angry or enraged? I'm really just sitting here, relaxed, spending my breaks writing on these forums. When I saw Gordyjjang's post, I thought "damn, that guy is right!" and added my comment. It's sometimes difficult to express mood in short passages of text, maybe I should use more emote icons <3

[Xantaria.8726]

I didnt read the whole thread, only the first page, but it was enough for me and i feel like i have to say a few words here (which will probably go under like page 2-8 anyway). While i can understand that having flaming/toxic is the worst in a game and i dont like it myself either, its starting to make me feel sick when people make claims about sth they never seem to be in to. I dont take a side here, but i can confirm that running with a meta comp(chrono+bs+druid+2dps) you can ez go though all t4 dailys+both cms in around 40mins, depending on the fracs. However even not running a meta comp still works fine as well as long people know what they are doing and what should be taken care of, either being mechanics or about synergie of the group(having the important buffs, enough cc, good dmg(not meaning all waver, you can even play with power daredevil as a good dps-class in fracs and go though it)).About this so called elitism: If you dont like it, dont go in those groups. Simple as that. Noone is in the position to force other players to play something they dont want to, but this goes both ways.Neither should Metaplayers force others to play metabuilds when they dont want to.Neither though should Non-Meta players expect that Metaplayers should play other builds either.

The LFG is there for a reason. If you want a chilled run that maybe takes 10-20 minutes longer then make the proper LFG, same for those who wants a run in a progressgroup that trys to clean them as quick as possible.At both you can get holded back by getting bad players, meaning players who dont know their class and/or the mechanics.Before now someone starts with:" but we all were beginners, its our duty to teach them etc.", i have no problems with teaching others, but many players are coming home after a long day of work (10h during season in my case without driving time) and dont realy want to train others when they get home and only have ~2h before they have to go to sleep. Those should also use the lfg in that way, clearly saying that they want to make a trainingsrun.

Please keep simply some things in mind before you start with insulting some groups who just have a differnt mindset, cause elitism and progressive mindset are 2 different things, but most players i hear complain about elitism rather go on and on why there are so many meta lfgs in the lfg and that they cant join them. If you cant join them, and no others are there, simply make your own with your own rules?And to those who flame others, either cause of the dps, cause of fails or cause of they dont like that class: dont forget that those are still humans, just behind another screen. While i in certain situations i can understand that one can gets pissed, starting to insult those in the ground is the wrong way.

Just wanting to throw this in here. I have no problem with either of those sides, since i play in both depending on my day and mood. But i hear a lot of hate from both sides about the other, for reasons that are in most cases not even true. So both sides should just cool their heads and simply leave the other side alone.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I can definitely see things getting worse. I was recently on a team that dissolved because I wasn't doing enough damage on the weaver... on miscellaneous adds. I could've explained to him that my rotation front-loads meteor shower and so it wasn't optimized for killing trash mobs, but he was such an aggressive puckered anus that I decided to just let the whole run fall apart instead.

The amount of elitism you see partly comes down to what time you do fractals. Immediately after server reset is when you're going to see the most toxicity. I.E. people demanding LNHB for generic T4 fractals, people hijacking LFGs then kicking you over it, etc. This is at a time where the most children and unemployed adults are playing, so a lot of their frustrations are taken out in the game. Also, a lot of the players who do fractals after reset are trying to farm them for gold as fast as possible, so empathy goes out the door. Finally, the group of people who post up LFGs are the kinds who can't get in a like-minded guild, due to their hostility or their inadequacies, so you'll be getting a lot more antisocial behavior out of the LFG.

Later at night you'll see more relaxed teams forming, but at server reset you'll see nothing but "LHNB 50 ess ping on join NEED CHRONO/DRUID/WEAVER/BS/HOLOSMITH." If you form an "all welcome" team, nobody joins, because they're all in a scurry to get onto these super duper 1337 groups. I don't remember things being this bad two months ago.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

My biggest gripe is that these new school fractal/raid specs reeeeeally lean on the druid play. If they can't pull a druid and just try to fill slot with another DPS or join a different group, these players are just dead constantly, 8/10 PUGs are like that.

[Linken.6345]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I can definitely see things getting worse. I was recently on a team that dissolved because I wasn't doing enough damage on the weaver... on miscellaneous adds. I could've explained to him that my rotation front-loads meteor shower and so it wasn't optimized for killing trash mobs, but he was such an aggressive puckered kitten that I decided to just let the whole run fall apart instead.

The amount of elitism you see partly comes down to what time you do fractals. Immediately after server reset is when you're going to see the most toxicity. I.E. people demanding LNHB for generic T4 fractals, people hijacking LFGs then kicking you over it, etc. This is at a time where the most children and unemployed adults are playing, so a lot of their frustrations are taken out in the game. Also, a lot of the players who do fractals after reset are trying to farm them for gold as fast as possible, so empathy goes out the door. Finally, the group of people who post up LFGs are the kinds who can't get in a like-minded guild, due to their hostility or their inadequacies, so you'll be getting a lot more antisocial behavior out of the LFG.

Later at night you'll see more relaxed teams forming, but at server reset you'll see nothing but "LHNB 50 ess ping on join NEED CHRONO/DRUID/WEAVER/BS/HOLOSMITH." If you form an "all welcome" team, nobody joins, because they're all in a scurry to get onto these super duper 1337 groups. I don't remember things being this bad two months ago.

Well thats usualy becouse those teams go for the 2 cm fractals ontop of the normal t4s.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Linken.6345 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I can definitely see things getting worse. I was recently on a team that dissolved because I wasn't doing

enough

damage on the weaver... on miscellaneous adds. I could've explained to him that my rotation front-loads meteor shower and so it wasn't optimized for killing trash mobs, but he was such an aggressive puckered kitten that I decided to just let the whole run fall apart instead.

The amount of elitism you see partly comes down to what time you do fractals. Immediately after server reset is when you're going to see the most toxicity. I.E. people demanding LNHB for generic T4 fractals, people hijacking LFGs then kicking you over it, etc. This is at a time where the most children and unemployed adults are playing, so a lot of their frustrations are taken out in the game. Also, a lot of the players who do fractals after reset are trying to farm them for gold as fast as possible, so empathy goes out the door. Finally, the group of people who post up LFGs are the kinds who can't get in a like-minded guild, due to their hostility or their inadequacies, so you'll be getting a lot more antisocial behavior out of the LFG.

Later at night you'll see more relaxed teams forming, but at server reset you'll see nothing but "LHNB 50 ess ping on join NEED CHRONO/DRUID/WEAVER/BS/HOLOSMITH." If you form an "all welcome" team, nobody joins, because they're all in a scurry to get onto these super duper 1337 groups. I don't remember things being this bad two months ago.

Well thats usualy becouse those teams go for the 2 cm fractals ontop of the normal t4s.

I am referring specifically to teams that have LNHB requirements while also NOT doing the CMs. I saw two of them earlier today.

[Eramonster.2718]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:My biggest gripe is that these new school fractal/raid specs reeeeeally lean on the druid play. If they can't pull a druid and just try to fill slot with another DPS or join a different group, these players are just dead constantly, 8/10 PUGs are like that.

It's the players choice. But if they are that dependant on the setup (trying to get them not to is akin to suicide) there's little you can do as it's a necessity than efficiency for them.

[Faaris.8013]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Finally, the group of people who post up LFGs are the kinds who can't get in a like-minded guild, due to their hostility or their inadequacies, so you'll be getting a lot more antisocial behavior out of the LFG.

While I tend to agree with your post (not sure how it is at server reset, it happens at 1am for me), not everybody who puts up an LFG is like that ^^

It often happens that your guild mates are not on when you have time, or you come home late and they already ran T4s. If you have 8 members who do T4s daily, and all are on at the same time, you can create 2 x 4 teams, sure. We have about a dozen members who do T4s daily, but we are rarely on at the same time, and even then, you need additional players to fill parties. The majority of players who set up LFGs are friendly and fun.

[Vinceman.4572]

During winter holidays I ran a couple of "reset fractals" (around 1 am) including CMs. Overall those groups were more competent compared to most of the groups I usually got in the afternoon/evening after work.I have never seen any T4 only group that asked for LNHB or KPs, maybe he saw some LFGs that haven't been changed after CMs or people just forgot to delete it. Either way why bother? There's no need to join those (I wouldn't neither) and even on reset there are enough other LFGs or you have still the possibility to open your own group.

At the moment the level of CM + T4 groups is appealing and leads to the quickest runs without any difficulties no matter what time it is. The good thing is: People who know about all the mechanics/tricks/gimmicks in CMs will have a breeze with T4s. That's one reason why you start with CMs in such groups.