Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Faaris.8013]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:My good friend, you have still failed to notice the multiple posts I have made, pointing out that my discussion was about the time efficiency of Raid Meta vs. General Fractal Meta.

I re-read your original post and the only time you mention time efficiency is this one:

People being way too picky while forming teams before actually starting the fractal. T4s are something that can be completed in about 30 minutes on average if people who know what they are doing just group up and go do it. There is no reason to tag an extra 10 -20 minute wait time to form a raid meta team.

I read this as follows: You believe that instead of waiting several minutes for the group to fill, it would be smarter to just get going without a specific group composition. You also think there is no reason to wait. Well, I have reasons to wait for people. I rather stand in the fractal lobby and wait for a healer than getting another dps and start the fractals. I usually chat in that time or do other stuff, so I don't consider that time wasted. Even if the whole thing takes longer, play time + waiting time, it's more fun with a good group composition. A T4 run can be relaxing and fun or very stressful and frustrating. Time is not the only factor in my reasoning.

Also, you forget to mention that many groups start with 2 or 3 guild mates that are looking for adds. If these groups don't find a healer or chrono or Warrior within 2 or 3 minutes, one of the people will just switch to the desired class and change the LFG to get a dps. If LFGs are not changing for several minutes and stay there, looking for a specific class, it's probably because the members are not in a hurry and rather relaxed about the whole thing.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Would it make you mad? Would you post a response?

[zealex.9410]

Groups form slower for 2 reasons.

1. We are in the middle of lw updates not much is going on and ppl have move on to other things for the time.
2. Pof was pretty underwhelming as an exoansion and some ppl decided to take a break from the game.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Faaris.8013

Dunno man. My fastest runs are just when I join a very general T4 LFG and just go. If a group is bad, I just carry it and finish unless it's something like Underground Facility where you need at least 3 people to survive to complete an objective. In that case, I leave and find a new group.

Just because a team waits for a raid meta setup does not mean that they are good players. I have certainly discovered this as well.

[zealex.9410]

@Taltevus.3289 said:It would bring me no greater joy than to see fractals go the way of raids and dungeons. Just so ArenaNet would actually do something but they don't.It's a culture in Gw2 that went unchecked...For a very long time. Now players feel entitled to be elitist. But like I said no greater joy.

U are so oblvious to the overall community their stance towards diff things and how that has limited and hurt the game over the years.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

If only Anet put same amount of power into dungeons as they use to turn fractals into raids... damn, this wold be awesome content.

[Astralporing.1957]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Also, what is different is the prevalence of metas. Originally, the casual setup groups made up a huge majority of the instanced content. Now, the meta elitism is much, much stronger and more widespread than it was before.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Also, what is different is the prevalence of metas. Originally, the casual setup groups made up a huge majority of the instanced content. Now, the meta elitism is much, much stronger and more widespread than it was before.

Completing fractal not optimal groups takes longer today as well. But not sure if it will wipe your group.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Also, what is different is the prevalence of metas. Originally, the casual setup groups made up a huge majority of the instanced content. Now, the meta elitism is much, much stronger and more widespread than it was before.

And it was well explained on the last page - less casual players, more players who've played that content dozens, even hundreds of times. Novelty is worn off, poor play is no longer funny. Honestly, I don't see another reason to repeat this content aside from my own strive for perfection. And you're preaching to me the validity of the casual comps? Maybe to you. For me there's no reason to participate in one. The occasional party with friends is just an exception, and it has no relevance anyway because it doesn't involve LFG.

[Hex.2579]

finally. kudos for you for bringing it up. though i believe fractal elitism existed long before raids or so. but it wasn't widespread as of now.some say the small raid comp make it easier for them to finish their run but i say otherwise. those peeps rely too much on others, on healing, on blocks, distortion yada yada. they run like shit with normal lfgs and can't do their jobs properly without a buffer and a babysitter. this new standard-ish promotes support classes and show their importance, which is great. cuz now people want druids on their team, some learn to play chrono, etc. back in the days, not so much needed outside of CMs.plus, if those same people happen to be regular raiders, they would likely use those same characters in fractals. it just becomes "the new standard" in a way. i don't like it personally but that's that. can't tell people what to play. so i hope people won't kick others for playing what they want either, esp on groups that don't specify what class on lfg.

i was still run 100cm without a healer with my close friends till my internet cut me off. since we are wvw players, we have builds that provide the boons that we need and position ourselves well enough, we don't need to rely on a babysitter.fractals are like dungeons so just all dps is enough. and any single class can be a dps, there's no need to be elitist at all. i find that 'chill' lfg or 'noobs only' or some similar turn out to be the best group, bested the raid comp in terms of dps and functionality. most of these folks are oldies, run their own builds, know classes well and get fractals mechanics to the T, they don't need a team comp nor a benchmark to tell them how to play. the numbers don't lie. but for the rest that aren't familiar with classes or can't deal good dps, having a meta class/comp will give them a better chance to survive and make the fight smoother. it's just more forgiving.there will be good and bad elitists just as well as good and bad players. we just have to live with it, sadly.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Also, what is different is the prevalence of metas. Originally, the casual setup groups made up a huge majority of the instanced content. Now, the meta elitism is much, much stronger and more widespread than it was before.

And it was well explained on the last page - less casual players, more players who've played that content dozens, even hundreds of times. Novelty is worn off, poor play is no longer funny. Honestly, I don't see another reason to repeat this content aside from my own strive for perfection. And you're preaching to me the validity of the casual comps? Maybe to you. For me there's no reason to participate in one. The occasional party with friends is just an exception, and it has no relevance anyway because it doesn't involve LFG.

Casual can still play efficiently. Please don't stigmatize people who don't put the game as main priority in their lifes.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Hex.2579" You are saying "all dps is enough" but what you really mean is "all hybrid is enough". And yes, if everybody plays a hybrid build, it's enough. You and your buddies are not playing dps builds, you use WvW builds. And that's just fine, nobody forces you to play pure dps or pure healer. You are confusing specific preferences with lack of skill though. I say it again and again, we don't need to play in group compositions with specialized classes, we just prefer doing it this way.

Your condescending tone just makes me think you are exactly the kind of elitist that OP is talking about, you just belong to another camp, the WvW elitists who think that PvE players are noobs.

I do agree to the notion posted in this thread that "raid"-meta is not the best for fractals. It's not as easy as just cutting a raid team in half and have the best fractal group composition. Although some mechanics are similar, there are few prolonged fights. What I noticed in a run recently was the effect the changes to condi have on fractals. While the ramp up time at raid bosses makes not much difference to the overall dps, at fractal encounters it certainly does. I played my Power DD and we had a Scourge and (condi) dps Berserker. My dps meter showed clearly how long it took them to reach their max dps, it was several seconds. Power based damage is there immediately, and in many fractal boss fights, you have phases where the boss gets invulnerable, like the Anomaly at Chaos or Amala, or the bosses in Shattered Observatory or Nightmare. When the condi classes reached their peak dps, the dps phase was basically over. That makes power based dps classes more meta than condi classes in fractals, which shine at raids these days. You cannot just take this meta and use it in fractals without losing efficiency. I also see more and more healing firebrand as support + healer in fractals and it might become the new meta. If you combine firebrand support with dps classes that don't rely on alacrity, you might get similar or better results than with chrono + weaver.

Another important thing different from raids is fractal potions. While the raid meta comp is set to get my DD's crit chance to 100%, this is totally different in fractals. If you go with a raid meta comp into fractals, the moment you drink your potions, your dps classes have surplus crit chance. Keeping it that way would be a waste of attribute points. Also, everybody with 150AR gets +15% boon duration from potions. If you have more AR, you get more boon duration. If your raid meta comp is setup to give 100% boon duration, you will end up with a surplus, which again is wasted attributes, sigil or skill slot.

That kind of stuff is why I agree in general with OP, raid meta is not fractal meta, and many people just take the raid setups from qtfy, cut them in half and don't ask themselves the question if it really is the best thing for fractals. People make fun of you when you draw your pistols as thief in fractals, while there are several situations where that set is the most useful. Maybe we are in a phase where people have yet to figure out what's really meta nowaydays for fractals, and then it's a natural ting to do, taking raid meta and see if it works in fractals. I learned to get some more dps and survivability out of my DD in fractals by deviating from the qtfy build. I also argue that getting more AR might be smarter than getting stat infusions in fractals.

[SuperduperMLGbsns.9345]

I sold my set of +12 infusions since it is frustrating to look at the lfg for fractals (not to mention I dont like the new fractals and lost interest). I cannot just hop in and do, I have to fulfill expections that I have no idea why they even exist.I raid alot myself and cannot understand why ppl created a problem around t4 which never extisted before.

What really bites me also is that 80% of this raid comunity are wannabes that suck hard actually.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Also, what is different is the prevalence of metas. Originally, the casual setup groups made up a huge majority of the instanced content. Now, the meta elitism is much, much stronger and more widespread than it was before.

And it was well explained on the last page - less casual players, more players who've played that content dozens, even hundreds of times. Novelty is worn off, poor play is no longer funny. Honestly, I don't see another reason to repeat this content aside from my own strive for perfection. And you're preaching to me the validity of the casual comps? Maybe to you. For me there's no reason to participate in one. The occasional party with friends is just an exception, and it has no relevance anyway because it doesn't involve LFG.

Casual can still play efficiently. Please don't stigmatize people who don't put the game as main priority in their lifes.

Please don't take my words out of their context and blow them completely out of proportion.

[Eramonster.2718]

@Seera.5916 said:I know what the word elite means. I just stated that in an MMO and in GW2, people can have different definitions of what it means to be elite and that none of them are wrong.What's said is true, just like how the OP can be interpreted differently. (Instead of being used as a description, it can also be interpreted Raid as the cause.)and here's an example :What really bites me also is that 80% of this raid comunity are wannabes that suck hard actually.

As I said before, the fractal Meta is shifting. Players are adapting to the changes, and this will effect the contents (Fractal in this case). Give it time and things will get better when it stabilize. It's a common occurrence (and not only in GW2), and to me it's good to have a change(it means the Game is changing and not stagnant). Players will always find ways to optimize, Meta Elitism had always been in Fractals I'm not sure why some had forgotten or denies it, there was a time LFG was filled with Reapers and power based are shunned in T4s (remembered the kicks). Currently, classes specializations are in a race to secure their position for fractals (druids, power warriors etc, class diversity and not just c.Reapers) to be made viable. Which also effect Non-Meta setups (if 300-400 toughness is needed?, might distribution to improve dmg, rectify what's casing the deaths etc). There's nothing wrong with doing it without healer, but if the changes made the current progress slower, sticking to the same build(your current meta) will often produce the same result.

[MarkoNS.3261]

i can only speak for myself but the reason i force 150 essences+ parties for fractals is 1 i want competent players to do cms and t4 and 2 i dont want to carry anyone. i have over 250 essences at this point by pugging cms semi daily. it all comes down with me not wanting to waste time with bad players and i dont mind waiting extra 20 minutes to avoid them.

[rwolf.9571]

I just avoid or leave the nitpicky groups. I do start nitpicking if somebody keeps dying and not using his pots. Or if there are 4 guards all wiping and not understanding why that is happening... (which 2-3 shouldn't have joined in the first place) And by that time I've already left the group.

If you see only LFGs with any form of elitism and no other, just start your own group. Alot of ppl won't join those groups anyway.

[Seera.5916]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Would it make you mad? Would you post a response?

And they still have different connotations.

There's the social elite who look down on the classes below them. See great examples in Victorian age setting books as we no longer have social classes in typical Western societies.

Then there's the elite at X skill who are just highly skilled. Who on average don't look down on anyone.

So again, which elite are you referring to?

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Where exactly does that "one fail, all wipe" thing happen? Fractal CMs for sure, since they're supposed to be hard. Anything else? Apart from Subject 6 in Thaumanova (which has always been that way), I can't think of anything. So provide concrete examples, please. Also, how exactly is the extreme finetuning you mention necessary? A healer certainly makes a big difference (we have several of them), chrono and warrior less so. All other classes/builds are highly interchangeable. If that's extreme finetuning ...

[Seera.5916]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Where exactly does that "one fail, all wipe" thing happen? Fractal CMs for sure, since they're supposed to be hard. Anything else? Apart from Subject 6 in Thaumanova (which has always been that way), I can't think of anything. So provide concrete examples, please. Also, how exactly is the extreme finetuning you mention necessary? A healer certainly makes a big difference (we have several of them), chrono and warrior less so. All other classes/builds are highly interchangeable. If that's extreme finetuning ...

Because too many people to C&P a build they see and follow a list of steps to defeat a boss instead of actually learning the fight and learning why the build was designed that way. So that when a mistake happens that throws a rotation off or causes a fight to last longer than if things went perfect, people don't know what to do and in their panic they make more mistakes and fail.

[CptAurellian.9537]

If we take such people as a benchmark, we can end the entire discussion. They are better off with a game that plays itself.

! It's called a film.

[Hex.2579]

@Faaris.8013 said:@"Hex.2579" You are saying "all dps is enough" but what you really mean is "all hybrid is enough". And yes, if everybody plays a hybrid build, it's enough. You and your buddies are not playing dps builds, you use WvW builds. And that's just fine, nobody forces you to play pure dps or pure healer. You are confusing specific preferences with lack of skill though. I say it again and again, we don't need to play in group compositions with specialized classes, we just prefer doing it this way.

Your condescending tone just makes me think you are exactly the kind of elitist that OP is talking about, you just belong to another camp, the WvW elitists who think that PvE players are noobs.

I do agree to the notion posted in this thread that "raid"-meta is not the best for fractals. It's not as easy as just cutting a raid team in half and have the best fractal group composition. Although some mechanics are similar, there are few prolonged fights. What I noticed in a run recently was the effect the changes to condi have on fractals. While the ramp up time at raid bosses makes not much difference to the overall dps, at fractal encounters it certainly does. I played my Power DD and we had a Scourge and (condi) dps Berserker. My dps meter showed clearly how long it took them to reach their max dps, it was several seconds. Power based damage is there immediately, and in many fractal boss fights, you have phases where the boss gets invulnerable, like the Anomaly at Chaos or Amala, or the bosses in Shattered Observatory or Nightmare. When the condi classes reached their peak dps, the dps phase was basically over. That makes power based dps classes more meta than condi classes in fractals, which shine at raids these days. You cannot just take this meta and use it in fractals without losing efficiency. I also see more and more healing firebrand as support + healer in fractals and it might become the new meta. If you combine firebrand support with dps classes that don't rely on alacrity, you might get similar or better results than with chrono + weaver.

Another important thing different from raids is fractal potions. While the raid meta comp is set to get my DD's crit chance to 100%, this is totally different in fractals. If you go with a raid meta comp into fractals, the moment you drink your potions, your dps classes have surplus crit chance. Keeping it that way would be a waste of attribute points. Also, everybody with 150AR gets +15% boon duration from potions. If you have more AR, you get more boon duration. If your raid meta comp is setup to give 100% boon duration, you will end up with a surplus, which again is wasted attributes, sigil or skill slot.

That kind of stuff is why I agree in general with OP, raid meta is not fractal meta, and many people just take the raid setups from qtfy, cut them in half and don't ask themselves the question if it really is the best thing for fractals. People make fun of you when you draw your pistols as thief in fractals, while there are several situations where that set is the most useful. Maybe we are in a phase where people have yet to figure out what's really meta nowaydays for fractals, and then it's a natural ting to do, taking raid meta and see if it works in fractals. I learned to get some more dps and survivability out of my DD in fractals by deviating from the qtfy build. I also argue that getting more AR might be smarter than getting stat infusions in fractals.

dude, idk where you get your ideas from. lol. you could reread what i said again. you misunderstand my point completely.i say all dps is enough. hybrid dps is still dps. does it matter? i already consider all dps is enough dps. so a fractal should run fine without the new mini raid squad comp.and how do we wvw players have anything to do with pve? most of the time we're considered "noobs" in your world, cuz it's true. outside of wvw and spvp, we're not that good. the fact that we only group up once a week for fractal dailies make us elitists? ok then. lol. i only ever lfg from level 1 to 100. and recently got my peers to purchase agony and get to run t4s daily with them once upon a time.

and the fact we don't need a healer cuz we have custom builds specifically for the group with buffs, boons and we position ourselves well enough as in we see anything as enemies and not just tag them as mobs. most pugs don't care about mobs that much until their health pass 50% health or so. where as for wvw/spvp player, i guess, you don't want to get to that point, you're always on edge. so we try to dodge and don't eat unnecessary attacks. that's how we don't need our healer. plus, what healer when i main healer/chrono in raids. and play dps/chrono in fractals.

DD needs no survivability inside fractals if you run durability rune. i don't do meta anyways. meta is good and bad at the same time, depend on how you look at it. tbh, getting more AR or stat infusions is nowhere close to getting the new mist attunement. unless you're one of those who like to mix-max, stat infusions and AR is the way to go. but mist attunement gives you a lot more sustain. and it can be godsend in some classes.

[Astralporing.1957]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@CptAurellian.9537 said:Fascinating thread. It's always amazing how such a question can blow up like an atomic mushroom.

I've been there since BWE1 and ever since the experimenting period after release, little has changed. We had the different dungeon metas (4 warrs + mes, their replacement by eles and so on), we had past fractal metas, now we have chrono+drood+warr+2X. All the time, we've also had enough groups who don't care for their composition and they worked (and work), too.Notice how originally, if you went in to do the content with some non-meta build, or performed worse, the content took just slower. Now, apparently, people want build groups so finetuned that if one person makes a mistake, everyone wipes because supposedly the individual players in that group setup can only function well in a specific group and become useless when one of the elements of that group is faulty.(i have my own opinion on that, but won't going to repeat it one more time here)

Where exactly does that "one fail, all wipe" thing happen? Fractal CMs for sure, since they're supposed to be hard. Anything else? Apart from Subject 6 in Thaumanova (which has always been that way), I can't think of anything. So provide concrete examples, please. Also, how exactly is the extreme finetuning you mention necessary? A healer certainly makes a big difference (we have several of them), chrono and warrior less so. All other classes/builds are highly interchangeable. If that's extreme finetuning ...

That's not what i claim (i personally think that's a case of "not enough skill"), but that's what other people in this thread claimed (won't be mentioning any names, but a reread of the thread should make obvious what i had in mind).I guess sarcasm still needs to be tagged to be recognized...

[Torolan.5816]

@Seera.5916 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

Would it make you mad? Would you post a response?

And they still have different connotations.

There's the social elite who look down on the classes below them. See great examples in Victorian age setting books as we no longer have social classes in typical Western societies.

Then there's the elite at X skill who are just highly skilled. Who on average don't look down on anyone.

So again, which elite are you referring to?

In general I agree with you, but you´re wrong when you say that western societies don´t have social classes that look down upon the common man. The difference is that they mostly do not believe that they have the birthright to look down upon the common man, they believe that inheritance and/or commercial/political success make them better than the common man. It´s really disgusting to converse with many people of the upper society, they are absolutely delusional when you ask them for example if hunger is global problem that also affects them, they will dance and play on the Titanic until they are swept away by the water and the last you will hear of them is lamenting how this could have happened to them of all people. Plutocracy(the rule of the rich and powerful) in its mildest Form is actually lobbyism which is a major factor in western democracies.

I honestly don´t know if many higher skilled people look down upon the less skilled. I personally feel that the life as an average man is much easier than hunting for the very best or being part of an elite organization. As top tier skill in games also is dependent on reflexes beside tactics, you can´t keep up forever. I recently played foosball against a 22 year old. I played a lot when I was younger like him, but I was simply unable to keep up with him reflexes wise. It´s a lesson you have to learn sooner or later, and I think that it is easier to accept it in grace than to turn into a so called bitter vet keyboar warrior someday.

When a game turns into a series of events I try to do as fast as I can because I don´t want to suffer through it forever, it is probably time to quit anyway.

[Yasi.9065]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:[...]T4s are something that can be completed in about 30 minutes on average if people who know what they are doing just group up and go do it. [...]Im guessing you mean 30min per fractal and not 30min per iteration. And here's the thing... with a 2 weaver, chrono, druid, spellbreaker setup you need around 30min for three t4 fractals. Can be less if the right fractals are daily and your chrono knows the more tricky portals.And thats just the thing. You dont take that comp because of raid. Thats a total misconception on your part. You take chrono for the portals and pulls, both utilities that speed up any run quite immensely, and you take chrono for quickness, alacrity and moa on bosses to increase dps of weavers by what was it... 50-60%? Something around that. You take druid because of cc pets and buffs. Spellbreaker for removing boons, cc and buffs.Now tell me another 5man group setup that can cover the amount of buffs, cc, utilities and dps that the above mentioned setup brings.There is none. Its the best optimized setup for 5 man content and fractals in particular, where you actually need all that utility to speed up runs.Sure, you can run without boonstrip, but it will take considerably longer. You can run without portals, again... takes longer. You can run without buffs and cc... just takes forever to complete bossfight and you risk wiping repeatedly, which prolongs that daily pleasure even more.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:[...]There is no reason to tag an extra 10 -20 minute wait time to form a raid meta team. [...]For one thing, if I have to pug, Im picky with the group I join. So I always plan in that around 30min extra wait time and go do something else ig... like do my daily gathering route, daily crafting etc. Thank god for multi tasking. Also, I can fill any spot in a "meta" group, so usually I shorten that waittime quite a lot.And then here's the above mentioned thing. If I wait 20min for a group to do t4 fractals, and that group finishes then daily t4 fractals in 30min instead of your 90min, that means I still finished 40min faster than when I joined a random unorganized group.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:[...] Groups full of raid DPSers who fail to pull a heal druid. They go in and are often unable to survive the random nature of fractal AI. It seems they fail to understand that having ultra high DPS means nothing if you can't stay alive long enough to use it. Frequently being in downstate is also a loss in DPS for the players who have to stop DPSing and go revive the downed player. [...]What you are basically saying here is, that they should wait for a druid. Which is true, to a point, a druid would sure make it easier. You can however run full dps and still survive quite a lot with only the potions, your dodges and maybe a dh throwing out aegis once in a while. Important thing to survive most bossfights in fractals is to cc anyway and then do full burst, while dodging / sidestepping / healing up / preparing cc in between. Theres really no need to adapt any fractals build, if you grasped that basic understanding.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:[...]Overly elitist attitude for a casual game mode that simply does not require raid elitism within a party to succeed. [...]Theres a difference between succeeding, and a smooth and fast daily run.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:[...]who have adapted custom builds that might sacrifice 15% to 20% top DPS for the ability to carry bad groups in fractals. [...]Fun fact... I can just rotate my attunements and autoattack on my staff weaver, sidestepping nearly all attacks, dodging only if necessary, and do more dps than just about every "custom build" you can come up with. Thereby carrying by phasing bosses faster/killing mob groups faster. Sorry, but thats just a lame excuse. You cant carry others with a healing signet on warrior or condiheal trait on necro, or more tanky gear. Most of those arent even enough to carry yourself. And thats the kind of "custom builds" I see 99% of the time when someone isnt running meta.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:[...]The kind of builds that are capable of solo'ing CM MAMA or finishing CM Ensolyss cap phase by itself if it has to, avoiding a boss fight reset and saving everyone time. [...]Im not joining a group under the premiss that Ill have to solo the content.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:~ There you have it. Someone needed to say it.Yep, same.