Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Feanor.2358]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:It's just a way to make sure you get decent players. Maybe you already cleared the CMs but the group disbanded. Maybe you don't feel like playing CMs today. In any case, there's nothing wrong with asking for whatever you feel like asking as a requirement for your group.

It sort of is. Having unreasonable requirements for content shuts out people who are experienced but unlucky, people who have differing playstyles and don't want to grind at CMs, prefer to play their individualized classes and do it well, people who are good but otherwise inexperienced, and so on. Every time somebody makes a "LNHB META CLASSES WE USE METERS", it is spitting in the face of the rest of the community, and it continually propagates the myth that these kinds of requirements are necessary for anything. There is a reason why we call this "toxicity": it spreads and poisons the community. Hostility breeds hostility, elitism breeds prejudice, and there's a reason why it took thousands of years for the concept of "inclusivity" to become a thing.

When I have to make my LFG specifically say that all classes are allowed, just to prevent random joiners from hijacking it and making their own demands, there is a problem.

Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements. When you want to have some fun by playing soccer, you don't expect to join AC Milan for it. If you go for a drink, you don't expect to march yourself to the nearest company and get readily accepted. Why do you expect the first party you see to accept you?

[Faaris.8013]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:It's just a way to make sure you get decent players. Maybe you already cleared the CMs but the group disbanded. Maybe you don't feel like playing CMs today. In any case, there's nothing wrong with asking for whatever you feel like asking as a requirement for your group.

It sort of is. Having unreasonable requirements for content shuts out people who are experienced but unlucky, people who have differing playstyles and don't want to grind at CMs, prefer to play their individualized classes and do it well, people who are good but otherwise inexperienced, and so on. Every time somebody makes a "LNHB META CLASSES WE USE METERS", it is spitting in the face of the rest of the community, and it continually propagates the myth that these kinds of requirements are necessary for anything. There is a reason why we call this "toxicity": it spreads and poisons the community. Hostility breeds hostility, elitism breeds prejudice, and there's a reason why it took thousands of years for the concept of "inclusivity" to become a thing.

When I have to make my LFG specifically say that all classes are allowed, just to prevent random joiners from hijacking it and making their own demands, there is a problem.

Whenever I don't feel like joining a meta group, and there is no other ad on the LFG, I start my own group. The last few times my only requirement was "just know your shit". You know what happens when you do that? You end up with a group where everybody actually knows their shit, uses pots and food, and you will probably have a healer and a chrono. So far this worked fine. There are many people out there who don't like being pushed around and being told what they have to do, because they actually know their shit. It's like those job ads where they set several requirements and include "punctuality" and "responsibility". I mean seriously, do they think they keep applicants who are always late and irresponsible away with this? For potential applicants, it's rather a red sign. Why do they add requirements that should be taken for granted? Do they have lots of employees who lack these "qualities"? Sometimes I rather have the players in my party that don't want to join any of the meta comps despite being totally able to, instead of risking to get stressed by people who want to make every run a speed run, without telling members beforehand.

[Holykitten.3064]

Just another example, I joined a group last night that was at Arkk on CM, obviously had people leave because of multiple wipes, I said ‘I have 12kp but I know my shit’, we wiped a few more times.I asked the Mesmer (LNHB/ Legendary armor and 30kAP) if he was running Disenchanter (me being a Spellbreaker knew it was unnecessary). He was... I told him to switch for Well of Precognition, and then we killed Arkk. Amazing. Just goes to show, eh? ^^ I had also drank 5 beers. XDOh, I have 13kp of Arkk now. I’ve not had the best of luck with Cosmic Essences haha

[Grogba.6204]

This is a common problem with players running META without understanding why and not understanding when they should take a different approach. (In this case, swapping Disenchanter on their own accord when a Scourge or Spellbreaker joins). Same goes for virtually any DPS spec even if Weaver reigns surpreme. More often than not Dragonhunter, Holosmith or Daredevil (sometimes even Berserker) will pull ahead of the average Weaver. /shrug

edit: I know that a "true" Meta group would consist of a Chrono, Druid, two Weaver and a Berserker/Spellbreaker depending on the fractal. These groups would also instantly break any breakbar while abusing all the damage multipliers from traits and sigils available. But even for this level of efficiency (time spend for fractals) I rather look for "Druid, Chrono, BS, two DPS" for two reasons: 1.) Group fills quicker and 2.) while all classes performance depends on their respective players I noticed the biggest variance of skill in Weaver. Could just be my own biased perception though.

[Faaris.8013]

@Grogba.6204 said:This is a common problem with players running META without understanding why and not understanding when they should take a different approach. (In this case, swapping Disenchanter on their own accord when a Scourge or Spellbreaker joins). Same goes for virtually any DPS spec even if Weaver reigns surpreme. More often than not Dragonhunter, Holosmith or Daredevil (sometimes even Berserker) will pull ahead of the average Weaver. /shrug

This is my experience too. Luckily, we have dps meters now to show that I do more damage with my bad old DD compared to the average Weaver. And the average DH and Holosmith out-dps me, so the gap between them and the Weaver is even wider. I think those people are stuck in the past where you got into every group as Elementalist (and now Weaver) because this class does the most damage. This could not be farther from the truth.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Faaris.8013 @Grogba.6204 It's true and there are a couple reasons for it:

• 5 man groups don't have so many stacked effects like banners/stat raising traits/ect.. ect.. so the raid metas designed in a very precise manner to benefit from that, begin to get lowered DPS compared to specs that have more self sustaining effects.
• Fractal AI is completely different and is largely based around fighting mobs rather than a single target. So even with a heal druid, sometimes it isn't enough and the raid metas that are super glass cannon like weaver, cannot simply hide behind the toughness tank and they end up spending a lot more time dodge rolling and kiting for survival than initiating burns. Sometimes they're just downed too often for any of that DPS to count at all.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Faaris.8013 @Grogba.6204 It's true and there are a couple reasons for it:

• 5 man groups don't have so many stacked effects like banners/stat raising traits/ect.. ect.. so the raid metas designed in a very precise manner to benefit from that, begin to get lowered DPS compared to specs that have more self sustaining effects.

Except they do, because both 5 and 10-man meta composition features the exact same supports.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

• Fractal AI is completely different and is largely based around fighting mobs rather than a single target. So even with a heal druid, sometimes it isn't enough and the raid metas that are super glass cannon like weaver, cannot simply hide behind the toughness tank and they end up spending a lot more time dodge rolling and kiting for survival than initiating burns. Sometimes they're just downed too often for any of that DPS to count at all.

Except trash is never an issue and every fractal has a boss fight. The only exception I can think of is Solid Ocean, where it literally doesn't matter what you play.

[Faaris.8013]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Faaris.8013 @Grogba.6204 It's true and there are a couple reasons for it:

• 5 man groups don't have so many stacked effects like banners/stat raising traits/ect.. ect.. so the raid metas designed in a very precise manner to benefit from that, begin to get lowered DPS compared to specs that have more self sustaining effects.
• Fractal AI is completely different and is largely based around fighting mobs rather than a single target. So even with a heal druid, sometimes it isn't enough and the raid metas that are super glass cannon like weaver, cannot simply hide behind the toughness tank and they end up spending a lot more time dodge rolling and kiting for survival than initiating burns. Sometimes they're just downed too often for any of that DPS to count at all.

That cannot be the reason, because a good weaver actually pures out the expected damage in fractals. It's not a technical reason, it's average skilled players. When they play weaver, it has a huge effect on their damage output.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Love how you guys argue anything that I say at this point, even when it makes perfect sense.Btw, someone went out of their way to do this for us -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27033/fractal-diary-a-chronicle-of-casual-and-hardcore-runs#latest

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@"Linken.6345" said:

I dont see how it affect you guys to see a party looking for someone who aint you,Just make your own party and demand what ever you like people to have for joining it.

If I wanted only 29 year old female blonds in my party and asked for skype video call or kick, I could totaly do it. would it fill? Not in a million years.

But why do that bother you guys?

Obviously it bothers us because it ruins the community. Posting up an LFG is posting up a public message. Over and over again, every day, people are seeing the exact same message 10 times over: play these classes and have these achievements, or you are "low IQ" as another person put it. And it conveys this message in the most influential way possible, by simply presuming it true dogmatically and shifting the argument into demonizing players who don't accept it. Over and over again, people see these same requirements, and come to think that because there's all this smoke there must be some fire underneath it all.

"Elitism" is not just about being good. It is about other people being less than you.

@Aenesthesia.1697 said:

Sorry but you are way off.

Anyone can start a LFG and request whatever they want. I understand people wanting to complete the CM within a reasonable amount of time, and I understand the requisites they come up with, even though it means I will never get in their groups. It doesn't have to do with elitism, but with people not wanting to take forever to complete a dungeon.

Yeah no, it is about elitism. Because I have a chronobuffer I can get on to most of these parties, and if you talk to these people or hang out with them you'll quickly find out that they're stroking their e-peen all the while. They revel in their distaste of "bads", and have DPS meters installed just to witch hunt.

@Aenesthesia.1697 said:Nothing keeps me from starting my own lfg looking for inexperienced players that want to have a good time dying, or even super experienced players to carry me because I don't have experience and i will inevitable drag the team, because I know I am not that good that I can play CM without seriously screwing up until I get the hang of it. If someone is willing to join me, then so be it.

There's a lot that keeps people from starting their own LFG. It's the same reason why it is nobody will tag up for events: spectator syndrome. People will lie back and watch the LFG, refusing to make their own because they don't want the burden of managing the party and also because they assume somebody else will do it for them. If it was easy, then everyone would do it. Because nobody does it, therefore it isn't easy.

@Aenesthesia.1697 said:I bet that CM experienced players will rather join the 'elitist' group, I would also do it, most of the time.

I do open a lot of 'everybody welcome' groups for T1 fractals, by the way. And it feels nice to help people get into fractals, but if you have limited playtime and the fractal has some special mechanic that requires coordination, then prepare to spend a lot of time.

That doesn't make sense. Half the time people try to legitimize super-elite LFGs by saying that they take longer overall because of fill time.

Either way, I've found that there are other ways to get a good enough group without making an LFG that says "CMs + T4 | LNHB 50 ESS | CHRONO/DRUID/HOLO/WEAVER/BS". I wish the caps were an exaggeration... Anyway, I've found that simply requesting pots and food is enough to handle nearly anything. The only exception is when doing CM100, in which case an easy run needs healer and Archdesigner. The reason being that beating Arkk the second time is a magnitude easier than beating him the first time, and once a player has ground out several hours against Arkk to win the first time, they're pretty well versed in his attacks.

If a group has trouble on anything (with the exception of cm100), all you need to do is bring a healer. Doesn't have to be druid. So long as the healer can heal, fractals becomes a whole lot easier.

@Feanor.2358 said:

Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is.

That is not what I am saying at all.

[Bakeneko.5826]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Grogba.6204" said:

"Having unreasonable requirements for content shuts out people [...]"There is a very simple solution that requires three steps:

1. Ignore the LFG not to your liking
2. open your own LFG
3. Do the content in question

Because forcefully pushing your own idea on how to play any sort of group content is incredible ironic considering the topic. Players whose goal is efficiency are suddenly a problem while no one forces you to play with them. This whole thread is a non issue getting inflated through factless opinions.

That doesn't work. Consistently seeing unreasonable demands in group request and dealing with unreasonable people is, in itself, shaping the community. And it does so for the worse. Isolationism is a fallacy; even if you think you're hiding away and aren't affecting the community, the fact is you are.

PreciselyAnd I ask again to those doing it, are the pros worth the cons in the long run?

I dont see how it affect you guys to see a party looking for someone who aint you,Just make your own party and demand what ever you like people to have for joining it.

If I wanted only 29 year old female blonds in my party and asked for skype video call or kick, I could totaly do it. would it fill? Not in a million years.

But why do that bother you guys?

Ok, I'll give you example from another MMO, while it is not exact 1:1 basis case, but it stands none the less. There was low level content you had to do with group, a.k.a. tank + healer + buffer + 3dps. You could skip buffer and add another DPS by taking buffs from NPC buffer (gave 2% worse buff stats), so people just ignored buffers till the levels, where NPC buffer said "your level is too high, bug off" and suddenly there is crisis - only player buffers available are in static groups, who won't do pug runs, because there is no point in doing what you can do with static with ease. Gw2 has similar problem - "you need x title, y currency", where new players are just left out, with idea "find pug group and git gud" and on daily basis I see longer and longer waits in LFG for CMs, while my guild 4 statics takes in new members, get them up to speed in half an hour and farms CMs like they were doing it since beginning. Pool of players who farm it daily via pug runs will start to decline, and then this part of forum will be filled "fix 100cm, noone is palying it", when problem was players all along and not the fractal.

[Feanor.2358]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:

Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is.

That is not what I am saying at all.

At its core, it is. The basis of your argument is that elitism is unnecessary ("continually propagates the myth that these kinds of requirements are necessary for anything") and therefore we should be accepting each and everyone regardless of their build, experience and whatnot. No, we shouldn't. It doesn't even matter if the requirements are actually needed. Nobody can impose such an obligation on me. It is my choice, and mine alone, to decide how and with whom to spend my free time. Do you want to see a problem? There you go - trying to control the free time of others is a problem. It is far and away more toxic than kicking someone who didn't read or didn't care about my LFG description.

[Henry.5713]

This has become my favorite topic to visit whenever I check the forums. The clash of personal phylosophies is quite interesting to read.All though, arguing phylosophy is almost as silly as arguing religion. The clash between the idea of true inclusion of the less fortunate or less profitable versus the full freedom of choice to decide on who you want to deal with to achieve your goals will not get you anywhere.This is as true in games as it is in real life or sports.There are also the subjective visions people have for the community and it's direction which in the end are just that "subjective".

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Linken.6345" said:

I dont see how it affect you guys to see a party looking for someone who aint you,Just make your own party and demand what ever you like people to have for joining it.

If I wanted only 29 year old female blonds in my party and asked for skype video call or kick, I could totaly do it. would it fill? Not in a million years.

But why do that bother you guys?

Obviously it bothers us because it ruins the community. Posting up an LFG is posting up a public message. Over and over again, every day, people are seeing the exact same message 10 times over: play these classes and have these achievements, or you are "low IQ" as another person put it. And it conveys this message in the most influential way possible, by simply presuming it true dogmatically and shifting the argument into demonizing players who don't accept it. Over and over again, people see these same requirements, and come to think that because there's all this smoke there must be some fire underneath it all.

"Elitism" is not just about being good. It is about

other people being less than you

.

@Aenesthesia.1697 said:

Sorry but you are way off.

Anyone can start a LFG and request whatever they want. I understand people wanting to complete the CM within a reasonable amount of time, and I understand the requisites they come up with, even though it means I will never get in their groups. It doesn't have to do with elitism, but with people not wanting to take forever to complete a dungeon.

Yeah no, it is about elitism. Because I have a chronobuffer I can get on to most of these parties, and if you talk to these people or hang out with them you'll quickly find out that they're stroking their e-kitten all the while. They revel in their distaste of "bads", and have DPS meters installed just to witch hunt.

@Aenesthesia.1697 said:Nothing keeps me from starting my own lfg looking for inexperienced players that want to have a good time dying, or even super experienced players to carry me because I don't have experience and i will inevitable drag the team, because I know I am not that good that I can play CM without seriously screwing up until I get the hang of it. If someone is willing to join me, then so be it.

There's a lot that keeps people from starting their own LFG. It's the same reason why it is nobody will tag up for events: spectator syndrome. People will lie back and watch the LFG, refusing to make their own because they don't want the burden of managing the party and also because they assume somebody else will do it for them. If it was easy, then everyone would do it. Because nobody does it, therefore it isn't easy.

@Aenesthesia.1697 said:I bet that CM experienced players will rather join the 'elitist' group, I would also do it, most of the time.

I do open a lot of 'everybody welcome' groups for T1 fractals, by the way. And it feels nice to help people get into fractals, but if you have limited playtime and the fractal has some special mechanic that requires coordination, then prepare to spend a lot of time.

That doesn't make sense. Half the time people try to legitimize super-elite LFGs by saying that they take longer overall because of fill time.

Either way, I've found that there are other ways to get a good enough group without making an LFG that says "CMs + T4 | LNHB 50 ESS | CHRONO/DRUID/HOLO/WEAVER/BS". I wish the caps were an exaggeration... Anyway, I've found that simply requesting pots and food is enough to handle nearly anything. The only exception is when doing CM100, in which case an easy run needs healer and Archdesigner. The reason being that beating Arkk the second time is a magnitude easier than beating him the first time, and once a player has ground out several hours against Arkk to win the first time, they're pretty well versed in his attacks.

If a group has trouble on anything (with the exception of cm100), all you need to do is bring a healer. Doesn't have to be druid. So long as the healer can heal, fractals becomes a whole lot easier.

@"Feanor.2358" said:

Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is.

That is not what I am saying at all.

OK, i dont know if you are refering to me but i said "if you put lfg credit card number on enter you will get only low IQ people".From my point of view YOU are hurting the comunity more then these "elitist". You took something that is not an issue and complain about it on 10 pages. You said that it ruins the community that everyone had to watch 10 elitist posts in lfg, well now everyone on this forum will see this post.

I dont know where you live but i guess you have freedom of speach in your country so puting almost any lfg title is ok as long as it doesnt breach gw2 rules.

I just doesnt understand the goal of this post. What do you want to achive. "Elitist" will still post the lfg title as they were before and you cannot change that. Anet will not do anything about it because they cnnot because its against rights to restrict this. I started to read this because it was so fun. Now its just sad. Like many revolutions your will fail because you didnt think about the basic questions like how do we want to change it so you have almost 0 chance.

Now i will start ignoring this post and i encourage all "elitist" supporters to do so as well. Elitists and players that are competent enough to press few buttons to create their on lfg doesnt care about this. No reason to Argue with someone who doesnt want to listen. We said many times adivices what to do and you never listen. If you want all the LNHB lfgs to dissapear then you are out of your mind. I never did 100 cm and i see these posts all the time. And what??? I just dont join them. No problem for me.

If everyone from elitist supporters will stop posting here lets see how long it will take this "disscusion" to die. Because all it does is is that everyone who visit this subforum will see it at top. THIS is bad for the comunity.

One last time enjoy your fractals

[ProtoGunner.4953]

I don't see any problem. Why are people so adamant not playing meta but still expecting to be welcome? If you want to do T3 and T4, play meta, otherwise there's T1/T2. That simple.

[Holykitten.3064]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:I don't see any problem. Why are people so adamant not playing meta but still expecting to be welcome? If you want to do T3 and T4, play meta, otherwise there's T1/T2. That simple.

I kind of disagree here.You can do most T4 with off meta builds. Once the balance patch hits, I'm gonna be trying T4 with HealRev and Quickbrands to see how it is.It's just easier with the current meta group. The problem here being, some people don't like how others play, which is a crap way to think really. We all can play how we like, if you (generalisation) don't like it, don't join other groups with those requirements ^^That being said, anyone can post whatever LFG requirements they like. My usual is 'F+P+Brain and cookies (and whatever professions are lacking in the party, like Chrono/Druid/DPS etc)' I don't use it often because I prefer to not clog the LFG with another group listing, if there's already some with similar requirements.

I've found the real problem is people slapping on a Meta build, then not knowing how to use it, or how to modify it on the fly in CMs especially.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:I don't see any problem. Why are people so adamant not playing meta but still expecting to be welcome? If you want to do T3 and T4, play meta, otherwise there's T1/T2. That simple.

I kind of disagree here.You can do most T4 with off meta builds. Once the balance patch hits, I'm gonna be trying T4 with HealRev and Quickbrands to see how it is.It's just easier with the current meta group. The problem here being, some people don't like how others play, which is a crap way to think really. We all can play how we like, if you (generalisation) don't like it, don't join other groups with those requirements ^^That being said, anyone can post whatever LFG requirements they like. My usual is 'F+P+Brain and cookies (and whatever professions are lacking in the party, like Chrono/Druid/DPS etc)' I don't use it often because I prefer to not clog the LFG with

another

group listing, if there's already some with similar requirements.

Yeah sure, I was talking about PUG groups who aren't 'easy'. I usually do it with friends and we don't always run meta and try out new stuff. I just wanted to point out that you have to respect people who expect you to do T4 with meta, be cause usually it goes the wrong way an takes time and you'll fail a lot. I was there, and I know it.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Grogba.6204" said:

"Having unreasonable requirements for content shuts out people [...]"There is a very simple solution that requires three steps:

1. Ignore the LFG not to your liking
2. open your own LFG
3. Do the content in question

Because forcefully pushing your own idea on how to play any sort of group content is incredible ironic considering the topic. Players whose goal is efficiency are suddenly a problem while no one forces you to play with them. This whole thread is a non issue getting inflated through factless opinions.

That doesn't work. Consistently seeing unreasonable demands in group request and dealing with unreasonable people is, in itself, shaping the community. And it does so for the worse. Isolationism is a fallacy; even if you think you're hiding away and aren't affecting the community, the fact is you are.

PreciselyAnd I ask again to those doing it, are the pros worth the cons in the long run?

I dont care about long run. I want to play meta fractals now. Why would i care about others desires if it goes against why i play this game. I dont care if someone reach bad conclusion like that you need this requirements ir whatever. If someone doesnt do his own research, his bad. If he asked i would say that as long as he kniw his class he can finish with whatever build they like. That doesnt mean i need to play with them. If they dont ask then their bad and not mine.

You have to understand that long run doesnt matter here. All that matter is fun. I dont know if i will be playing gw2 tomorow but i can have fun now with meta group.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Ok:

1. No one said that you SHOULD run groups with no requirements whatsoever or that setting requirements is BAD. They are saying that Elite Raid Subgroups are unnecessary to complete fractals. In a raid, the content is much much more complex/difficult and yes, everyone needs to be on the same page concerning proper and precise team compositions to complete the content. Raids require high levels of team orchestration and if a given team cannot achieve this, they won't be beating the raid. This is not the case in T4 or even CM fractals. Just about every day, I make light to no requirement groups for T4s and CMs like: "T4 Dailies" or "99/100CMs Just know what you're doing" and I complete them with absolutely no problem, regardless of the combo of the 4 randoms who join. Again, the statement "Elite Raid Subgroups Are Unnecessary" simply means, that is not an actual requirement to complete fractals in the same way that it is in raids. I needed to make this point clear because much conjecture is being tossed in this thread with much assumption to what that bolded statement meant. This leads to the 2nd point:
2. Raid Elitism is indeed killing the game mode, slowly but surely. There are various reasons why the population is becoming smaller and smaller in Guild Wars 2, I won't ignore that, but the raid elitism is certainly not helping anything. Those of you who want to defend the elite gamer lifestyle, that's great but pay attention to what is going on outside of your elite raid meta LFGs and understand that you aren't going to have much of a game mode left if you keep gating this casual content with the requirements of raids. Here is what is happening:
   • People come and people go. Even the players you are playing with now in T4s/CMs will begin to fade away. This is lowering viable player base.
   • But people want to set LFGs like: "T4 Dailies Food & Pots - LF Chrono/Druid/3x DPS" and then they kick players who join that for whatever reason do not meet their expectations, even if it it's just some slight blemish on the face on of the raid meta.
   • Now you have players who have completed T3s who are ready to step up to T4s but they aren't exactly meta and are not yet used to running T4s. Their builds aren't even bad, maybe some Condi Berserker has elected to run defense line over tactics, ect.. ect.. some slight variation. But they try to join groups for T4s and are often kicked right on the spot for whatever reason that is. Then he tries to join a random group with no requirements, which don't always work out well, especially if the rando group isn't being led by an experienced player. So they are joining groups of players who are not yet experienced enough to even suggest to them what they can do to make their builds better, groups who wipe multiples times on something like subject 6, every time they come across it. These kind of players often get their feet wet in T4s for a couple days and then say to themselves: "You know what? This isn't worth my time" and then they leave and go back to T3s because their initial experience with T4 fractals was that good players who could teach them won't allow them in groups and lesser groups make the T4s annoying to the point that isn't worth the hassle. This is lowering viable player base. But if a group of veteran players would have just accepted his slightly off meta build and slight inexperience, he would have maintained interest and adapted to the T4s quickly enough to want to keep running them.
   • There will come a day, mark my words, that even the elitists trying to PUG a group will be standing around just hoping that anyone even an off meta build, would join their group so they could complete their dailies and CMs.

It's up to the community whether that day comes sooner or later. If you want that day to come later, the community needs to lower it's standards a little bit when allowing or kicking players who join their LFGs. Maybe even consider taking the time to teach new groups CMs if they have a good day when their bored.

[Tuukka.8963]

If im not playing with guildies ofc i make requirements to match my experience in fractals because i don't know the people who joins. Meta comps makes fractals go so much faster. For me it usually takes 30min in total to do 100&99cm so you can do it with 1 food and dont need to use food twice.

Don't understand why people care about what other people write to lfg. If you don't meet the requirements people asking then you don't need to join. Make your own group to your liking. Be it 4 necros+druid if you want that, was pretty common not so long ago.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

The people who care are the people who are noticing from a non-selfish standpoint, what is happening to the fractal community over the course of time, since elite raid meta mentality has come to fractals.

[Eramonster.2718]

And what TexZero.7910 said:

You do you, they do them. What's the difference between them and you again outside of you calling them elitist ?

Everyone is capable of self thinking. You have your thoughts and perspective on how to do things, others have theirs. If both side find it hard to compromise, find others that do ; same effort.

Newton's third law.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:The people who care are the people who are noticing from a non-selfish standpoint, what is happening to the fractal community over the course of time, since elite raid meta mentality has come to fractals.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Ok:

1. No one said that you SHOULD run groups with no requirements whatsoever or that setting requirements is BAD. They are saying that Elite Raid Subgroups are unnecessary to complete fractals. In a raid, the content is much much more complex/difficult and yes, everyone needs to be on the same page concerning proper and precise team compositions to complete the content. Raids require high levels of team orchestration and if a given team cannot achieve this, they won't be beating the raid. This is not the case in T4 or even CM fractals. Just about every day, I make light to no requirement groups for T4s and CMs like: "T4 Dailies" or "99/100CMs Just know what you're doing" and I complete them with absolutely no problem, regardless of the combo of the 4 randoms who join. Again, the statement "Elite Raid Subgroups Are Unnecessary" simply means, that is not an actual requirement to complete fractals in the same way that it is in raids. I needed to make this point clear because much conjecture is being tossed in this thread with much assumption to what that bolded statement meant. This leads to the 2nd point:
2. Raid Elitism is indeed killing the game mode, slowly but surely. There are various reasons why the population is becoming smaller and smaller in Guild Wars 2, I won't ignore that, but the raid elitism is certainly not helping anything. Those of you who want to defend the elite gamer lifestyle, that's great but pay attention to what is going on outside of your elite raid meta LFGs and understand that you aren't going to have much of a game mode left if you keep gating this casual content with the requirements of raids. Here is what is happening:
   • People come and people go. Even the players you are playing with now in T4s/CMs will begin to fade away. This is lowering viable player base.
   • But people want to set LFGs like: "T4 Dailies Food & Pots - LF Chrono/Druid/3x DPS" and then they kick players who join that for whatever reason do not meet their expectations, even if it it's just some slight blemish on the face on of the raid meta.
   • Now you have players who have completed T3s who are ready to step up to T4s but they aren't exactly meta and are not yet used to running T4s. Their builds aren't even bad, maybe some Condi Berserker has elected to run defense line over tactics, ect.. ect.. some slight variation. But they try to join groups for T4s and are often kicked right on the spot for whatever reason that is. Then he tries to join a random group with no requirements, which don't always work out well, especially if the rando group isn't being led by an experienced player. So they are joining groups of players who are not yet experienced enough to even suggest to them what they can do to make their builds better, groups who wipe multiples times on something like subject 6, every time they come across it. These kind of players often get their feet wet in T4s for a couple days and then say to themselves: "You know what? This isn't worth my time" and then they leave and go back to T3s because their initial experience with T4 fractals was that good players who could teach them won't allow them in groups and lesser groups make the T4s annoying to the point that isn't worth the hassle. This is lowering viable player base. But if a group of veteran players would have just accepted his slightly off meta build and slight inexperience, he would have maintained interest and adapted to the T4s quickly enough to want to keep running them.
   • There will come a day, mark my words, that even the elitists trying to PUG a group will be standing around just hoping that anyone even an off meta build, would join their group so they could complete their dailies and CMs.

It's up to the community whether that day comes sooner or later. If you want that day to come later, the community needs to lower it's standards a little bit when allowing or kicking players who join their LFGs. Maybe even consider taking the time to teach new groups CMs if they have a good day when their bored.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Ok:

1. No one said that you SHOULD run groups with no requirements whatsoever or that setting requirements is BAD. They are saying that Elite Raid Subgroups are unnecessary to complete fractals. In a raid, the content is much much more complex/difficult and yes, everyone needs to be on the same page concerning proper and precise team compositions to complete the content. Raids require high levels of team orchestration and if a given team cannot achieve this, they won't be beating the raid. This is not the case in T4 or even CM fractals. Just about every day, I make light to no requirement groups for T4s and CMs like: "T4 Dailies" or "99/100CMs Just know what you're doing" and I complete them with absolutely no problem, regardless of the combo of the 4 randoms who join. Again, the statement "Elite Raid Subgroups Are Unnecessary" simply means, that is not an actual requirement to complete fractals in the same way that it is in raids. I needed to make this point clear because much conjecture is being tossed in this thread with much assumption to what that bolded statement meant. This leads to the 2nd point:
2. Raid Elitism is indeed killing the game mode, slowly but surely. There are various reasons why the population is becoming smaller and smaller in Guild Wars 2, I won't ignore that, but the raid elitism is certainly not helping anything. Those of you who want to defend the elite gamer lifestyle, that's great but pay attention to what is going on outside of your elite raid meta LFGs and understand that you aren't going to have much of a game mode left if you keep gating this casual content with the requirements of raids. Here is what is happening:
   • People come and people go. Even the players you are playing with now in T4s/CMs will begin to fade away. This is lowering viable player base.
   • But people want to set LFGs like: "T4 Dailies Food & Pots - LF Chrono/Druid/3x DPS" and then they kick players who join that for whatever reason do not meet their expectations, even if it it's just some slight blemish on the face on of the raid meta.
   • Now you have players who have completed T3s who are ready to step up to T4s but they aren't exactly meta and are not yet used to running T4s. Their builds aren't even bad, maybe some Condi Berserker has elected to run defense line over tactics, ect.. ect.. some slight variation. But they try to join groups for T4s and are often kicked right on the spot for whatever reason that is. Then he tries to join a random group with no requirements, which don't always work out well, especially if the rando group isn't being led by an experienced player. So they are joining groups of players who are not yet experienced enough to even suggest to them what they can do to make their builds better, groups who wipe multiples times on something like subject 6, every time they come across it. These kind of players often get their feet wet in T4s for a couple days and then say to themselves: "You know what? This isn't worth my time" and then they leave and go back to T3s because their initial experience with T4 fractals was that good players who could teach them won't allow them in groups and lesser groups make the T4s annoying to the point that isn't worth the hassle. This is lowering viable player base. But if a group of veteran players would have just accepted his slightly off meta build and slight inexperience, he would have maintained interest and adapted to the T4s quickly enough to want to keep running them.
   • There will come a day, mark my words, that even the elitists trying to PUG a group will be standing around just hoping that anyone even an off meta build, would join their group so they could complete their dailies and CMs.

It's up to the community whether that day comes sooner or later. If you want that day to come later, the community needs to lower it's standards a little bit when allowing or kicking players who join their LFGs. Maybe even consider taking the time to teach new groups CMs if they have a good day when their bored.

I never said that you NEED meta compozition to clear T4 but there are players that enjoy it more. I dont like to compete with others but i like to compete with myself. Thats why when friends showed me fractals i was hooked. Few months ago i was T1 but i made my way to T4 and also run without meta groups. It is harder but thats why it was fun for me. If i could clear it easily fractals wouldnt be fun. I was getting better. But after T4 there was no other tier to aim for so i was aiming for perfection. The same thing that drove me to higher tiers is driving me now to optimize and improve. I am not flawless but i am learning.

Its true that when i got to T4 there were less meta groups but also groups were more toxic because there were experienced players and newer player at same party. Since more meta parties started to pop up i never met a toxic group. NEVER. Its true that it might be harder for fresh T4 player to join group but i never saw lfg "fresh T4, help please" or something like that. If i see T4 lfg for example 100 at boss i join them to help even if it is not a meta group.

If someone asks for help i would gladly provide. I met those players and now i sometimes meet them at 99cm. I also met players that try strategy if we died 5 times, we will win with same strategy next time.

You can say that i have "elitist" mindset in everything. Before i was in T2 fractals like 3-4 months after i started playing i understood raid meta, knew raid builds and had full ascended set. For me the concept that if i dont understand something i dont ask/reserch it is quite strange. I would like to play with same minded players like me. But i dont want to play with the ones hitting head on a wall. Players that know what meta comp is are more likely to adapt/improve then random groups because they might be fresh T4s or Someone who enjoys diferent builds or are not as demanding.

As i said after meta comp started to pop i met 0 toxicity in both meta and random groups. Before that i met some toxic kid maybe every other day. So for me the separation is good for the enjoyment of the game.

When my friends (they are playing much more casualy but much longer) took me to fractals They were T2 and when we made it to T3 we though it is rly hard. One of them said the next day that he doesnt want to do t3 because it was too hard. So we didnt. Few weeks later we went back to T3 and it was much easier. I am in T4 and they are not because they said they think it is too hard for them now. When you are experianced in T3 you should have little problems in T4. From my experiance T4 is easier then T3 because in T4 are more competent players.

If its true that players are leaving faster then new are comming then either it will stop or game will die. Players leaving is natural after expasion. If the game is going to die then i will be spending last moments enjoying it and not trying to please others.

It speaks of character that you are thinking about others but i play this game "alone". I am not here for socialization, If something benefits me i will do it but dont expect me to do stuff if i dont enjoy it. If there will not be enough players to play fractals from lfg then i will play with players with my guild. They are running every day in many groups. I dont run with them because its easier for me to click join squad without talking to others. I will adapt if i have to.

I am selfish.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you could say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly that: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

[Vinceman.4572]

Since there are more elite players just setting up "T4 daily" although they could ran with a more specific LFG I doubt that the playerbase of fractals or GW2 as a whole will shrink because of some more meta requests.

Also, GW2 will die before fractal running dies off except Anet actively kills the game mode on purpose with a future patch. The game has problems on the casual end - 1/2 weeks after a living story update - every fricking time since fractals are also only played by a tiny minority.

Thirdly, I think every raider & fractal player will agree that fractal CMs are a harder routine than the actual raid bosses of W1-4 (outside of CMs) because the content is far more balanced towards 5 players than raids are to 10. On too many raid bosses you can yolo around and still beat the boss in contrast to almost all fractal CM bosses.

And last but not least, it's still kind of a wrong assumption: Most of the people are running raid tactics because it turned out to be easier to pug with than just hopping in and hoping that you get 4 competent players. They don't do that because they've seen it once or read it on reddit/discretize or elsewhere. They know it's reliable and use it as their personal reference. Of course they will get this chrono from time to time that doesn't know his job or the supposed power dh that turns out to be a staff camping nomad but in the overwhelming majority of their runs they are getting their favored result. They don't want to be surprised at all and they also don't want to carry other players although they could. They make a general agreement which works fine for a lot of like-minded people.