Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Vinceman.4572]

Joined a "T4 daily" yesterday because time issues and it was the only lfg I could take in that situation. 2 players, obviously mates, wanted to kick me, after I answered kindly to them that there is no need to focus and kill one of the champs during the Bloomhunger fight as they were starting to argue about it. One of them insisted that one champ has to die. He pointed it out again and informed me that pugs can't stand 2 champs + Bloomy and that it has to be done. 3 players were running around like chicken escaping my heals and buffs like I haven't seen it since months. I left the group before one of the remaining players was able to kick me and told them that this is not the group I was looking for. The next group was better but the damage abysmal. Later on I joined a group for daily recs - lfg was in the 75-100 section - when a tempest joined with 450 dps average. He looked like a healing tempest without healing anyone. 2 players wanted to kick him I didn't agree because recs are easy as .... . We carried this player through all 3 recs including S.O. 75 - he didn't even thank us or said any word at all. ^^That's the reason I try to avoid running non-meta group if possible. The things mentioned above are not regular things but they appear from time to time. For me this is no fun at all.

[Holykitten.3064]

@Vinceman.4572 said:there is no need to focus and kill one of the champs during the Bloomhunger fight.

I felt that pain yesterday too. 1 player in group (a dps) insisted we had to kill them before phasing each time, instead of cleave killing it in add phase if necessary. That decision was 1 against 4 though, so we let him solo the champs while we killed the boss.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Weerus.3701" said:OP, you are blindly trying to use victim card called elitism. Raid builds are most used for a reason. I would encourage everyone to try strict copy, and if they can't preform well with it, tweak around it, change some skills or traits at the cost of some dps. If you can't afford it, get the general idea, and make the closest approximation. Make it, so that build works out for you. You ought to give it your best when there is an instanced party for dungeons, raids, fractals or spvp. Open world wvw or pve solo/squads, you are free to use whatever. Just please don't try to drag people down, not everyone has the patience as me to waste hours on end helping ppl without proper builds and skill, just so that they use victim card ingame or on forums.

Some people are so underperforming that it takes 1 T4 fractal instance literally more that 30min to complete. There was a time I sticked with such people, helped them, gave some advices, but everything was received poorly from their side. I decided I don't have 3 hours of time to waste everyday just to complete T4 daily fractals, thus I started to advertise my party as "T4 daily (food&pots)". If people bring their own food and potions(even if cheap variants), for me that's a sign that person is really trying their best, to help the party make enjoyable and fast T4 clear, and I really respect that. That's far from elitism. As for classes, I take whatever comes in first, and I always do T4 dailies with a power warrior friend (so not elitist to begin with). Even so, sometimes it happens that party synergy is just too low, and we fail to do one instance over and over again. At that point someone will 99% leave, and only then will Istart searching for heal druid, to help my party members survive.

As for dps meters, they are needed to some extent. I never bashed anyone for their dps or threatened that "I'm watching" . I like to monitor my own dps, and compare it to dps of other classes. A lot of people are even asking if anyone uses dps meters and if you can give them report at the end of the fight. So the only ones that are against them, are really the people that are trying to hide something. The fact that they play with blue gear? The fact that they only 111111,6,11111111,6? I don't know..What I would like to see is some kind of ingame buff table, so I could monitor party alacrity/quickness uptime, since I use chrono quite a lot

Victim card? I think you need to reread the OP statement and read through the thread as well, which is an extension of the OP statement. All that was said was: "Raid Meta Elitism is unnecessary for the completion of T4 fractal daily runs" and it is. It was other people making assumptions in their conjecture that turned the discussion into strange places, sort of like your statements.

Vague & Broad statements for the troll bro.

No, that was not all that was said. The essence can be summarized in "raid meta is not necessary for the completion of T4 dailies, so you should not ask for it". However, what I should and what I shouldn't is up to me to decide, not you and not OP. Which renders the whole thread meaningless, as you're clearly not willing to accept that simple fact.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Oh I absolutely love it when 2 or 3 players are farming Oakhearts across the swamp and drawing Bloomhunger away from green circles.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Weerus.3701" said:OP, you are blindly trying to use victim card called elitism. Raid builds are most used for a reason. I would encourage everyone to try strict copy, and if they can't preform well with it, tweak around it, change some skills or traits at the cost of some dps. If you can't afford it, get the general idea, and make the closest approximation. Make it, so that build works out for you. You ought to give it your best when there is an instanced party for dungeons, raids, fractals or spvp. Open world wvw or pve solo/squads, you are free to use whatever. Just please don't try to drag people down, not everyone has the patience as me to waste hours on end helping ppl without proper builds and skill, just so that they use victim card ingame or on forums.

Some people are so underperforming that it takes 1 T4 fractal instance literally more that 30min to complete. There was a time I sticked with such people, helped them, gave some advices, but everything was received poorly from their side. I decided I don't have 3 hours of time to waste everyday just to complete T4 daily fractals, thus I started to advertise my party as "T4 daily (food&pots)". If people bring their own food and potions(even if cheap variants), for me that's a sign that person is really trying their best, to help the party make enjoyable and fast T4 clear, and I really respect that. That's far from elitism. As for classes, I take whatever comes in first, and I always do T4 dailies with a power warrior friend (so not elitist to begin with). Even so, sometimes it happens that party synergy is just too low, and we fail to do one instance over and over again. At that point someone will 99% leave, and only then will Istart searching for heal druid, to help my party members survive.

As for dps meters, they are needed to some extent. I never bashed anyone for their dps or threatened that "I'm watching" . I like to monitor my own dps, and compare it to dps of other classes. A lot of people are even asking if anyone uses dps meters and if you can give them report at the end of the fight. So the only ones that are against them, are really the people that are trying to hide something. The fact that they play with blue gear? The fact that they only 111111,6,11111111,6? I don't know..What I would like to see is some kind of ingame buff table, so I could monitor party alacrity/quickness uptime, since I use chrono quite a lot

Victim card? I think you need to reread the OP statement and read through the thread as well, which is an extension of the OP statement. All that was said was: "Raid Meta Elitism is unnecessary for the completion of T4 fractal daily runs" and it is. It was other people making assumptions in their conjecture that turned the discussion into strange places, sort of like your statements.

Vague & Broad statements for the troll bro.

No, that was not

all

that was said. The essence can be summarized in "raid meta is not necessary for the completion of T4 dailies,

so you should not ask for it

". However, what I should and what I shouldn't is up to me to decide, not you and not OP. Which renders the whole thread meaningless, as you're clearly not willing to accept that simple fact.

Assumptions on a broad and vague statement.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Oh I absolutely love it when 2 or 3 players are farming Oakhearts across the swamp and drawing Bloomhunger away from green circles.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Weerus.3701" said:OP, you are blindly trying to use victim card called elitism. Raid builds are most used for a reason. I would encourage everyone to try strict copy, and if they can't preform well with it, tweak around it, change some skills or traits at the cost of some dps. If you can't afford it, get the general idea, and make the closest approximation. Make it, so that build works out for you. You ought to give it your best when there is an instanced party for dungeons, raids, fractals or spvp. Open world wvw or pve solo/squads, you are free to use whatever. Just please don't try to drag people down, not everyone has the patience as me to waste hours on end helping ppl without proper builds and skill, just so that they use victim card ingame or on forums.

Some people are so underperforming that it takes 1 T4 fractal instance literally more that 30min to complete. There was a time I sticked with such people, helped them, gave some advices, but everything was received poorly from their side. I decided I don't have 3 hours of time to waste everyday just to complete T4 daily fractals, thus I started to advertise my party as "T4 daily (food&pots)". If people bring their own food and potions(even if cheap variants), for me that's a sign that person is really trying their best, to help the party make enjoyable and fast T4 clear, and I really respect that. That's far from elitism. As for classes, I take whatever comes in first, and I always do T4 dailies with a power warrior friend (so not elitist to begin with). Even so, sometimes it happens that party synergy is just too low, and we fail to do one instance over and over again. At that point someone will 99% leave, and only then will Istart searching for heal druid, to help my party members survive.

As for dps meters, they are needed to some extent. I never bashed anyone for their dps or threatened that "I'm watching" . I like to monitor my own dps, and compare it to dps of other classes. A lot of people are even asking if anyone uses dps meters and if you can give them report at the end of the fight. So the only ones that are against them, are really the people that are trying to hide something. The fact that they play with blue gear? The fact that they only 111111,6,11111111,6? I don't know..What I would like to see is some kind of ingame buff table, so I could monitor party alacrity/quickness uptime, since I use chrono quite a lot

Victim card? I think you need to reread the OP statement and read through the thread as well, which is an extension of the OP statement. All that was said was: "Raid Meta Elitism is unnecessary for the completion of T4 fractal daily runs" and it is. It was other people making assumptions in their conjecture that turned the discussion into strange places, sort of like your statements.

Vague & Broad statements for the troll bro.

No, that was not

all

that was said. The essence can be summarized in "raid meta is not necessary for the completion of T4 dailies,

so you should not ask for it

". However, what I should and what I shouldn't is up to me to decide, not you and not OP. Which renders the whole thread meaningless, as you're clearly not willing to accept that simple fact.

Assumptions on a broad and vague statement.

Denial.

[Fallesafe.5932]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Weerus.3701" said:OP, you are blindly trying to use victim card called elitism. Raid builds are most used for a reason. I would encourage everyone to try strict copy, and if they can't preform well with it, tweak around it, change some skills or traits at the cost of some dps. If you can't afford it, get the general idea, and make the closest approximation. Make it, so that build works out for you. You ought to give it your best when there is an instanced party for dungeons, raids, fractals or spvp. Open world wvw or pve solo/squads, you are free to use whatever. Just please don't try to drag people down, not everyone has the patience as me to waste hours on end helping ppl without proper builds and skill, just so that they use victim card ingame or on forums.

Some people are so underperforming that it takes 1 T4 fractal instance literally more that 30min to complete. There was a time I sticked with such people, helped them, gave some advices, but everything was received poorly from their side. I decided I don't have 3 hours of time to waste everyday just to complete T4 daily fractals, thus I started to advertise my party as "T4 daily (food&pots)". If people bring their own food and potions(even if cheap variants), for me that's a sign that person is really trying their best, to help the party make enjoyable and fast T4 clear, and I really respect that. That's far from elitism. As for classes, I take whatever comes in first, and I always do T4 dailies with a power warrior friend (so not elitist to begin with). Even so, sometimes it happens that party synergy is just too low, and we fail to do one instance over and over again. At that point someone will 99% leave, and only then will Istart searching for heal druid, to help my party members survive.

As for dps meters, they are needed to some extent. I never bashed anyone for their dps or threatened that "I'm watching" . I like to monitor my own dps, and compare it to dps of other classes. A lot of people are even asking if anyone uses dps meters and if you can give them report at the end of the fight. So the only ones that are against them, are really the people that are trying to hide something. The fact that they play with blue gear? The fact that they only 111111,6,11111111,6? I don't know..What I would like to see is some kind of ingame buff table, so I could monitor party alacrity/quickness uptime, since I use chrono quite a lot

Victim card? I think you need to reread the OP statement and read through the thread as well, which is an extension of the OP statement. All that was said was: "Raid Meta Elitism is unnecessary for the completion of T4 fractal daily runs" and it is. It was other people making assumptions in their conjecture that turned the discussion into strange places, sort of like your statements.

Vague & Broad statements for the troll bro.

No, that was not

all

that was said. The essence can be summarized in "raid meta is not necessary for the completion of T4 dailies,

so you should not ask for it

". However, what I should and what I shouldn't is up to me to decide, not you and not OP. Which renders the whole thread meaningless, as you're clearly not willing to accept that simple fact.

This.

I don't really even understand the point of this thread, or what we're arguing about anymore. OP stated that raid meta wasn't necessary for basic T4 fractals. And I think that 95% of us could agree that this is true. But, if somebody wants to do it anyway, then nobody gets to have any say in it (folks will either join the group or not). Are we just having a whining/judgement session now?

[Grimlock the Barbarian.920]

i don't know how you are blaming the raid community cus I have been apart of this game since this game came out and back when we did our fractal 48's cus it was the highest lvl you could do at the time with the given at and to get rewards cus the fractal had to fall on an even number to get jade maw but if u didn't join on the specified class we asked for aka guardians and warriors were kinda the thing at the time then u were kicked. This elitism has exhisted long long before whate you are complaining about so u cannot blame the raid community for something that has existed long before them.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

lol, @Fallesafe.5932 had it right in his last post.

There never really was an argument to begin with. Just a broad & vague statement that invited much conjecture. 10,000 hits and 11 pages worth of conjecture.

So why argue about a statement that the last 3 pages show everyone agrees on?

[Fallesafe.5932]

Lol, nevermind

[Weerus.3701]

@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Weerus.3701" said:OP, you are blindly trying to use victim card called elitism. Raid builds are most used for a reason. I would encourage everyone to try strict copy, and if they can't preform well with it, tweak around it, change some skills or traits at the cost of some dps. If you can't afford it, get the general idea, and make the closest approximation. Make it, so that build works out for you. You ought to give it your best when there is an instanced party for dungeons, raids, fractals or spvp. Open world wvw or pve solo/squads, you are free to use whatever. Just please don't try to drag people down, not everyone has the patience as me to waste hours on end helping ppl without proper builds and skill, just so that they use victim card ingame or on forums.

Some people are so underperforming that it takes 1 T4 fractal instance literally more that 30min to complete. There was a time I sticked with such people, helped them, gave some advices, but everything was received poorly from their side. I decided I don't have 3 hours of time to waste everyday just to complete T4 daily fractals, thus I started to advertise my party as "T4 daily (food&pots)". If people bring their own food and potions(even if cheap variants), for me that's a sign that person is really trying their best, to help the party make enjoyable and fast T4 clear, and I really respect that. That's far from elitism. As for classes, I take whatever comes in first, and I always do T4 dailies with a power warrior friend (so not elitist to begin with). Even so, sometimes it happens that party synergy is just too low, and we fail to do one instance over and over again. At that point someone will 99% leave, and only then will Istart searching for heal druid, to help my party members survive.

As for dps meters, they are needed to some extent. I never bashed anyone for their dps or threatened that "I'm watching" . I like to monitor my own dps, and compare it to dps of other classes. A lot of people are even asking if anyone uses dps meters and if you can give them report at the end of the fight. So the only ones that are against them, are really the people that are trying to hide something. The fact that they play with blue gear? The fact that they only 111111,6,11111111,6? I don't know..What I would like to see is some kind of ingame buff table, so I could monitor party alacrity/quickness uptime, since I use chrono quite a lot

Victim card? I think you need to reread the OP statement and read through the thread as well, which is an extension of the OP statement. All that was said was: "Raid Meta Elitism is unnecessary for the completion of T4 fractal daily runs" and it is. It was other people making assumptions in their conjecture that turned the discussion into strange places, sort of like your statements.

Vague & Broad statements for the troll bro.

No, that was not

all

that was said. The essence can be summarized in "raid meta is not necessary for the completion of T4 dailies,

so you should not ask for it

". However, what I should and what I shouldn't is up to me to decide, not you and not OP. Which renders the whole thread meaningless, as you're clearly not willing to accept that simple fact.

This.

I don't really even understand the point of this thread, or what we're arguing about anymore. OP stated that raid meta wasn't necessary for basic T4 fractals. And I think that 95% of us could agree that this is true. But, if somebody wants to do it anyway, then nobody gets to have any say in it (folks will either join the group or not). Are we just having a whining/judgement session now?

I'll admit it, I read only op and then commented, so I don't know what was the whole discussion, nor I'm I that interested to backtrack it now.

Fact is that you CAN DO T4 fractals without "raid meta" party. I'm doing it that way all the time.Another fact is, that sometimes you really DO NEED healing druid in party to make it trough with "certain" people.Yet another fact is that if you are asking for food and potions and/or druid in LFG, that IS NOT the sign of "raid elitism" you are screaming it out to be.

What I did was read op, and expressed my opinion on matter. One that I'm sure many players would agree with.

[Cerioth.7062]

is part of the raiding communitydoesnt give a damn who joins my t4 group as long as they know their stuff

So how is it the raid community's fault that the fractal LFG doesnt please you? I think it is more of a thing that happens in every MMO - METAs are a thing and many players like to stick to that.

There is meta in WvW and WvW blobs/guilds might not accept you in if you are not META.There is meta comps for PVP that are far more succesful at getting to plat rankThere used to be meta comp and speedclear style for Dungeons when they were the shitThere has always been a meta comp for fractalsThere is a meta comp for raids, obviouslyAnd believe it or not, there is preferred comps even for open world. Take Triple Trouble for example. People want specific roles in specific squads.

I believe the current shift of people wanting more support/druids is not the raid community's fault.

It's a matter of the community as a whole. And many of these meta fractal runners do not even touch raids.

[zealex.9410]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I can definitely see things getting worse. I was recently on a team that dissolved because I wasn't doing

enough

damage on the weaver... on miscellaneous adds. I could've explained to him that my rotation front-loads meteor shower and so it wasn't optimized for killing trash mobs, but he was such an aggressive puckered kitten that I decided to just let the whole run fall apart instead.

The amount of elitism you see partly comes down to what time you do fractals. Immediately after server reset is when you're going to see the most toxicity. I.E. people demanding LNHB for generic T4 fractals, people hijacking LFGs then kicking you over it, etc. This is at a time where the most children and unemployed adults are playing, so a lot of their frustrations are taken out in the game. Also, a lot of the players who do fractals after reset are trying to farm them for gold as fast as possible, so empathy goes out the door. Finally, the group of people who post up LFGs are the kinds who can't get in a like-minded guild, due to their hostility or their inadequacies, so you'll be getting a lot more antisocial behavior out of the LFG.

Later at night you'll see more relaxed teams forming, but at server reset you'll see nothing but "LHNB 50 ess ping on join NEED CHRONO/DRUID/WEAVER/BS/HOLOSMITH." If you form an "all welcome" team, nobody joins, because they're all in a scurry to get onto these super duper 1337 groups. I don't remember things being this bad two months ago.

Well thats usualy becouse those teams go for the 2 cm fractals ontop of the normal t4s.

I am referring specifically to teams that have LNHB requirements while also NOT doing the CMs. I saw two of them earlier today.

It's just a way to make sure you get decent players. Maybe you already cleared the CMs but the group disbanded. Maybe you don't feel like playing CMs today. In any case, there's nothing wrong with asking for whatever you feel like asking as a requirement for your group.

Waht about asking for credit card number when entering the group?

Sure. Its your choice weter u will join or not.

[Jason.5983]

There is more elitism coming into Fractals because it requires so. That's what happens when changes occur and difficulty goes up.

[Moogri.1935]

I agree with OP in that a full raid composition isn't required for recs, and even for T4s and it is absurd to require one for recs. The time to make the party is not worth the effort on something that can be done so easily. But I don't agree with OP calling out people to stop being raid elitists in fractals.

I think a distinction needs to be made between raid elitism and toxic raid elitism. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to play with likeminded people of similar skill level to clear things efficiently. There are ways to achieve this such as people advertising for the whole suite - CMs + T4s and maybe recs thrown in with LNHB or some similar requirement. The 100CM run being a "rite of passage" in a sense to determine if the group is of people of similar skill level with the expectation carried on to the rest of the fractals.

The example OP gives is possibly one of toxic elitism of the type of requiring a requirement higher than that which is needed, which I'm inclined to think is due to some sort of failing in the person's part. Possibly they think that they are better skilled than they actually are, and even wanting to be carried.At the same time however, with the addition of progressively more difficult fractals like Observatory, Nightmare, and Twilight Oasis, even lower tier versions of them can be quite difficult. Even so, a raid comp isn't needed. Maybe a good dedicated healer for a party of squishy dps, otherwise a tanky party that can each individually self sustain will suffice.

There is a flipside to elitism, however, and it's a lower skilled player running with a higher skilled party. If the party members are totally fine with carrying that member then then that's ok. But if someone decides to join a higher skilled party with the expectation of being carried, then there is a problem as this person is not pulling their weight. It's worse if it seems like they're not putting in any effort. It's even worse when that lower skilled player thinks that they're actually good and are acting all arrogant about it. It then becomes a different kind of toxic elitism. It's quite selfish, really.I've literally met people who are pulling less than 10% of the group dps as a dps class, and failing mechanics, scathingly complain about other party members, then when their dps is pointed out, they adamantly refused to believe it saying they were doing good dps just because they were seeing "big numbers" (which as we now know don't necessarily translate to high dps).

I understand that there are high performing people who act like jerks too, but can you really blame them? If you're not up to their level, and they have an expectation, it's not fair if you're bringing them down. And often people are not just one dimensional. Perhaps they don't have much time and want to use it more efficiently. Maybe they want to get fractals out of the way so they can do a guild raid training run. Or help out others in some other way.

Could it be that the legitimate kind of elitism - where legitimately good players are looking for other good players to clear content fast is causing the toxic kind of elitism? What can be done by the devs to address this and make things fair for everyone? I don't think they can do much and still keep things fair. It's up to us to discover and utilize solutions to get around this - as many others suggested make your own lfg (and make expectations clear in the description - food, pots, titles, or chill run, casual, everyone welcome), find and join a static, run with friends or guildmates. Whatever method you choose, just avoid or ignore the toxic people, they don't just come in the elite variety, there are toxic noobs too.

[TPMN.1483]

Do people really have such short memories?Fractals used to have a meta comp before raids even came along:PS War (Greatsword)- generates might, Guardian (Support/Active Defenses for team),2xStaff Eles(DPS/Utility Support), Thief (Blind fields/invisibility/skips).[All in zerker gear]

It is often advantageous asking for an optimal composition as content can be completed easier.

Raiders have not infected fractals - people are looking for easiest group compositions to complete content - often based around what they know works well. Yes - Raiders often do FoTM and some of them may actually be a lot better players as they can do much harder content than FoTM.

It is actually a lot easier to complete content in a pug scenario with a standard optimal setup - even static groups will have an optimal setup and occasionally try different things as builds change or they want to try a new strategy ensuring all the necessary defensive utilities are in place for an optimal run (dodging is a DPS loss -))

If you just want an easy carefree run join a group who doesn’t care what they are running -)

Different groups will have different objectives:1) I want to complete this quickly2) I will be happy if I manage to complete this at all - it’s my first time3) I dont care how long it takes - it’s the journey which matters..

Etc.

Try to align yourself with the type of run you want - people are complex -)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5x Scourge with epi is the real meta in any situation where there are mobs or 2+ opponents with higher health values. Have you ever seen 5x Scourges with epi at Molten Boss duo?

[Boulder.3589]

I don't see the problem. These meta players find it fun to play with other meta players in a meta way but find it unfun to play non meta, and clearly states what they're look for in lfg. Why should they now play in a way that's not fun for them?. They want you to play a certain way only if you want to play with them. I know there are exceptions, like people who join as a 4th player and then tries to order everyone around, I don't like that either. You can find other people who are ok with non meta and play with them. You might have trouble finding enough people like that in a timely manner but that's not the meta players' fault.

It's like a person who likes to meditate a lot looks at an add that says "4 party animals LF 5th party animal to room with"... joins them, and then complains about how these people don't meditate qietly, and also gets kickked out of the party house for being a downer. Go find a meditation retreat.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:5x Scourge with epi is the real meta in any situation where there are mobs or 2+ opponents with higher health values. Have you ever seen 5x Scourges with epi at Molten Boss duo?

YesI personaly dont play necro but every day i see 5*necro lfg

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:5x Scourge with epi is the real meta in any situation where there are mobs or 2+ opponents with higher health values. Have you ever seen 5x Scourges with epi at Molten Boss duo?

If it was the real meta, it would have been played. It's not, and there's a good reason for that.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Feanor.2358 I'll make a video soon, to show you how 5x epis works with ping ponging exponential condi amplification. Then you tell me Scourges aren't meta when mobs are or bosses with adds are present.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Feanor.2358 I'll make a video soon, to show you how 5x epis works with ping ponging exponential condi amplification. Then you tell me Scourges aren't meta when mobs are or bosses with adds are present.

I'm fully aware of the capabilities of the epi bounce. But yeah, they aren't meta. The Molten Duo dies way too fast, there's no need for that. And you'll be much, MUCH slower getting there.

[Holykitten.3064]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'll make a video soon, to show you how 5x epis works with ping ponging exponential condi amplification. Then you tell me Scourges aren't meta when mobs are or bosses with adds are present.

Situational. It may be really good on certain bosses/trash but you need that ‘condi bounce’ for it to work. That doesn’t make it meta, because it is situational. Meta in the gw2 sense, means strongest current setup/strategy. If a composition requires something outside of what you are taking (5 epi necros, but you need adds for condi bounce) it ain’t meta.Meta can be used in all situations. That’s the point of meta.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen an lfg asking for 5 necros, still are the odd 1druid 4necros. The rest are meta or unclassified.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Feanor.2358 I'll make a video soon, to show you how 5x epis works with ping ponging exponential condi amplification. Then you tell me Scourges aren't meta when mobs are or bosses with adds are present.

I'm fully aware of the capabilities of the epi bounce. But yeah, they aren't meta. The Molten Duo dies way too fast, there's no need for that. And you'll be much, MUCH slower getting there.

How would it be slower in a fractal level with mobs all over the place? That is the point of Epi.

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'll make a video soon, to show you how 5x epis works with ping ponging exponential condi amplification. Then you tell me Scourges aren't meta when mobs are or bosses with adds are present.

Situational. It may be really good on certain bosses/trash but you need that ‘condi bounce’ for it to work. That doesn’t make it meta, because it is situational. Meta in the gw2 sense, means strongest current setup/strategy. If a composition requires something outside of what you are taking (5 epi necros, but you need adds for condi bounce) it ain’t meta.Meta can be used in all situations. That’s the point of meta.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen an lfg asking for 5 necros, still are the odd 1druid 4necros. The rest are meta or unclassified.

Wait.. but there are... different metas... for different game modes/situations in Guild Wars 2...

[Holykitten.3064]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Wait.. but there are... different metas... for different game modes/situations in Guild Wars 2...

Great deduction there, but we are specifically talking about Raids and the impact it has on the Fractal meta, which is Chrono, Druid, Warrior and two DPS. you want to take 5 Necros on your runs, you go for it! I'd much rather not.

[Eramonster.2718]

Can the op be tweaked? It will save half of the discussion made necessary.