Mesmer deceives its way past the PVP & WVW split

[Felipe.1807]

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@"psyt.9415" said:I used to defend Mesmer but enough is enough how can they literally be meta in every single game mode since HoT and slide away with barely any nerfs again it’s getting stupid. One overpowered kitten after another im honestly getting sick of it and this games balance ream for that matter.

How can they beb meta in every game mode? Simple. If you aren't a bunker, basically any dueling spec in PvP is viable in WvW, which is where they are used. As for PvE, raids were designed around mesmers as they weren't seen being used in PvE. Instead of complaining it's meta in every game mode, shouldn't you be HAPPY that someone can play their class in all modes? Shouldn't you want that for ALL classes instead of having a "useless class" when switching game modes? You got this one backwards.

Mesmers werent used on PvE before raids? If I remenber, Mesmers used to be meta on dungeons. I guess nobody is saying that mesmers should be trash tier on PvE/sPvP/WvW, but saying that he shouldnt be a must have in all 3 game modes, theres a huge diference between being viable and being a top profession on the game...guess the only place that Mesmer dont really have a place are on zerg fights, but it compensate for being one of the best(if not the best) small scale fighter.

Well, let me tell you something from someone who plays a lot of mesmer. I now main mesmer in all 3 game modes, mostly because switching is a pain and I'm lazy. I do however have difficulty fighting many classes. If you first thought in response to that is "you are just bad" then what you are really saying is that mesmers aren't the problem, skilled players are. So let's nerf the skilled players, except we can't unless we just make all builds faceroll easy, and that's no fun for anyone. Mesmers have counterplay, and I'm in high gold in PvP, and in a T1 server in WvW, where I play against skilled players. The point is that skilled players can dispatch me as a mesmer, so therefor the mesmer is not a problem. The main thing that people hate about a mesmer is that it can escape, but let's face it, thief is JUST as good, if not better, and we've had portals since core game. Talking from a balance standpoint with skilled players, a mesmer is not OP. Against noobs, it is, but a fresh air ele is OP then as it can one shot a lot of things, as well as thieves, so nerf them too? Oh wait, we all die if you know how to counter any of those, or run with our tail between our legs. Both count as a win for you.

Allright, saying that you are High Gold on sPvP really dosent help to validade your argument, rank have nothing to do with skills, considering the state of the game, being on T3 gold or T1 Plat is nothing impressive...the argument that cause players can kill, and because they can kill you as a mesmer they are "good" players, so that means that mesmer and its specs are balanced...got no words for that lol maybe, just maybe you arent as good as you think you are, and the "good" players that counter and kill you all the time are just decent, you are the one who actually havent learned yet how to play mesmer and use all the tools that it bring to the table...Mesmer have way to much thing on his arsenal, mobility, evades frames, teleports, stealth, damage...but I honestly dont expect Anet to ever balance Mesmer, this game is not competitive, is just a PvE game with some PvP game modes just for fun, shouldnt be taken serious.....you even tried to compare Fresh Air Ele with Power Mesmer specs...

You completely missed the point. I never said that I was a good mesmer, why do you think that I even said that. It was the entire point in fact that I'm not as good as you think that I'm claiming to be. The point that you missed is that mesmers have a lot AVAILABLE, but that doesn't make them overpowered. They still take a lot of skill to use. Compare this to a spellbreaker that literally any moron con run with invulns on invulns. You don't have to be good to play a spellbreaker and be incredibly effective, but you do on a mesmer. Skill floor is a part of balance. If I wanted easy wins, I'd just go play an easy class. INstead, I am playing a class that's actually hard and when I kill people, it means I'm better than them, not that I have an easy class. If I wanted to take a nap while winning games, I'd load up a scourge or spellbreaker. With how easy those are to play, and be insanely effective, I don't see how you could call mesmer OP comparatively.

Okay, you win, Mesmers are the pinnacle of balance, even if they have all the tools necessary to outplay all professions, that dosent make Mesmer overpowered.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Ranked spvp will officially be broken and unplayable if everything gets nerfed except Mesmer. We'll have a 3 class meta: Mesmers, Firebrands, Scourges, GG.

Mesmer is already the most overall dominant class across the board in all attributes concerning conquest matches. To even propose the idea of omitting Mesmer from the nerf train that apparently every other class is on, scares the absolute shit out of me as to what in the hell Arenanet is even thinking at this point.

[Ithilwen.1529]

Most reductions to Mesmers in my 5+ years in the game has been severe. Of course there are more clones now and shattering is more frequent. That was the stated goal of the rework. It even serves to make Mesmers a little bit confusing. I have to admit, when I hear of a nerf to Mesmer, I now assuming that it will be crippling. I'm scared that I'm seeing another glamour nerf on the horizon.

The fact that some find it unpleasant to play against Mesmers is not a rationale to nerf.

Please ANET, I "grew up" as a Mesmer,(in the year plus,) after the glamour nerf, when the class was widely acknowledged to be "trash tier" and hambow warriors ruled the world.

I humbly request, as a long time player, that you not cripple my class.

My point is: ANET has a long history of nerfs to Mesmer that turned out to be very heavy. Given this, ANET would be prudent to be cautious and under react rather than over react.

[Velimere.7685]

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:I humbly request, as a long time player, that you not cripple my class.

My point is: ANET has a long history of nerfs to Mesmer that turned out to be very heavy.

Their currently stated planned nerf for Elusive Mind is an example of "very heavy" in that regard as it becomes crippling; a 10-second recharge to the "breaks stun" portion of the trait would serve much better and would be in line with Revenant being able to break stun every 10 seconds via Empty Vessel. Unlike Daredevil, Mirage in its current iteration does not have means beyond endurance regeneration to cope with the application of exhaustion. Furthermore, a Revenant would be able to break stun more frequently than a Mirage with Elusive Mind having a 10-second recharge to its "break stun" portion, so I'd say that'd make Elusive Mind fairly balanced in that regard.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

Mesmer changes were just put in the game. It is not quite enough time for epeople to fully allow people to sort out how to counter the mesmer. I do however think that False Oasis is possibly one of the bigger parts of the Mirage survivability. I do not personally run it, nor do chronos (obviously). This seems to make the amount of inveln frames the mirage can pump out a lot higher than I had first assumed, and this may need to be looked at just as much as the stun break issue. If they nerf the trait as stated, there will be little choice of heals as you WILL need to run False Oasis in order to deal with the drop in endurance regen. Possibly just adding an ICD on Elusive mind of 5s, and nerfing down False Oasis in PvP and WvW may be another good solution while offering more choice of heals since we are trying to nerf to balance things back. With having only a 5s rechange on the full trait, they would have more trouble fighting condi as well, which would put it more in line with dueling more classes as nerfing only the stun break may be not enough alone, but too much against power classes alone. I can dual most scourge with no major issues due to the massive condi clear, and think that should possibly be looked at as well, but as a middle ground VS just nerfing it into the ground.

[Egorum.9506]

It's hard to learn!

If you don't nerf it that's all you'll see next season

[Meri.9312]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Especially since this patch is focused on toning down instant casts, mantra of distraction + confounding suggestions combo really should be changed. Instant ranged stun on a short cool-down that can easily be combo'd into a 100-0 burst is very unhealthy game play. Rework confounding suggestions into something that gets rid of the instant stun so you can still dodge mirror blade burst.

For me that is the only thing that can save a mesmer from heavy classes, if they change it, there won't be a way to play vanilla and chrono with burst. Maybe after this, they might change it, as I get the feeling that you need the expansion to be able to play at meta.

[zoopop.5630]

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Most reductions to Mesmers in my 5+ years in the game has been severe. Of course there are more clones now and shattering is more frequent. That was the stated goal of the rework. It even serves to make Mesmers a little bit confusing. I have to admit, when I hear of a nerf to Mesmer, I now assuming that it will be crippling. I'm scared that I'm seeing another glamour nerf on the horizon.

The fact that some find it unpleasant to play against Mesmers is not a rationale to nerf.

Please ANET, I "grew up" as a Mesmer,(in the year plus,) after the glamour nerf, when the class was widely acknowledged to be "trash tier" and hambow warriors ruled the world.

I humbly request, as a long time player, that you not cripple my class.

My point is: ANET has a long history of nerfs to Mesmer that turned out to be very heavy. Given this, ANET would be prudent to be cautious and under react rather than over react.

mesmer has ALWAYS been good regardless of what season they been "nerf" and with the current changes to them they have SPIKED up in overall every aspect for build possibilities from Core-Chrono-Mirage. Mesmer are at an ALL time OP current because of the amount of stuff they can do with chrono ..... it's DUMB. Love the class but when you see everyone in their moms playing the class it's for obv reasons.

[Kahyos.1437]

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@"psyt.9415" said:I used to defend Mesmer but enough is enough how can they literally be meta in every single game mode since HoT and slide away with barely any nerfs again it’s getting stupid. One overpowered kitten after another im honestly getting sick of it and this games balance ream for that matter.

How can they beb meta in every game mode? Simple. If you aren't a bunker, basically any dueling spec in PvP is viable in WvW, which is where they are used. As for PvE, raids were designed around mesmers as they weren't seen being used in PvE. Instead of complaining it's meta in every game mode, shouldn't you be HAPPY that someone can play their class in all modes? Shouldn't you want that for ALL classes instead of having a "useless class" when switching game modes? You got this one backwards.

Mesmers werent used on PvE before raids? If I remenber, Mesmers used to be meta on dungeons. I guess nobody is saying that mesmers should be trash tier on PvE/sPvP/WvW, but saying that he shouldnt be a must have in all 3 game modes, theres a huge diference between being viable and being a top profession on the game...guess the only place that Mesmer dont really have a place are on zerg fights, but it compensate for being one of the best(if not the best) small scale fighter.

Well, let me tell you something from someone who plays a lot of mesmer. I now main mesmer in all 3 game modes, mostly because switching is a pain and I'm lazy. I do however have difficulty fighting many classes. If you first thought in response to that is "you are just bad" then what you are really saying is that mesmers aren't the problem, skilled players are. So let's nerf the skilled players, except we can't unless we just make all builds faceroll easy, and that's no fun for anyone. Mesmers have counterplay, and I'm in high gold in PvP, and in a T1 server in WvW, where I play against skilled players. The point is that skilled players can dispatch me as a mesmer, so therefor the mesmer is not a problem. The main thing that people hate about a mesmer is that it can escape, but let's face it, thief is JUST as good, if not better, and we've had portals since core game. Talking from a balance standpoint with skilled players, a mesmer is not OP. Against noobs, it is, but a fresh air ele is OP then as it can one shot a lot of things, as well as thieves, so nerf them too? Oh wait, we all die if you know how to counter any of those, or run with our tail between our legs. Both count as a win for you.

Allright, saying that you are High Gold on sPvP really dosent help to validade your argument, rank have nothing to do with skills, considering the state of the game, being on T3 gold or T1 Plat is nothing impressive...the argument that cause players can kill, and because they can kill you as a mesmer they are "good" players, so that means that mesmer and its specs are balanced...got no words for that lol maybe, just maybe you arent as good as you think you are, and the "good" players that counter and kill you all the time are just decent, you are the one who actually havent learned yet how to play mesmer and use all the tools that it bring to the table...Mesmer have way to much thing on his arsenal, mobility, evades frames, teleports, stealth, damage...but I honestly dont expect Anet to ever balance Mesmer, this game is not competitive, is just a PvE game with some PvP game modes just for fun, shouldnt be taken serious.....you even tried to compare Fresh Air Ele with Power Mesmer specs...

You completely missed the point. I never said that I was a good mesmer, why do you think that I even said that. It was the entire point in fact that I'm not as good as you think that I'm claiming to be. The point that you missed is that mesmers have a lot AVAILABLE, but that doesn't make them overpowered. They still take a lot of skill to use. Compare this to a spellbreaker that literally any moron con run with invulns on invulns. You don't have to be good to play a spellbreaker and be incredibly effective, but you do on a mesmer. Skill floor is a part of balance. If I wanted easy wins, I'd just go play an easy class. INstead, I am playing a class that's actually hard and when I kill people, it means I'm better than them, not that I have an easy class. If I wanted to take a nap while winning games, I'd load up a scourge or spellbreaker. With how easy those are to play, and be insanely effective, I don't see how you could call mesmer OP comparatively.

Revenants, eles, and other classes are also hard to play in PVP. Just because they are "hard" to learn shouldn't mean they have higher potential than other classes. Equally skilled players should still be able to outplay you with other classes, otherwise all skilled players will just use mesmer to pvp. I also like playing characters with complex mechanics, but its just stupid to be OP because of that.

[Arlette.9684]

@zoopop.5630 said:

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Most reductions to Mesmers in my 5+ years in the game has been severe. Of course there are more clones now and shattering is more frequent.

That was the stated goal of the rework.

It even serves to make Mesmers a little bit confusing.

I have to admit, when I hear of a nerf to Mesmer, I now assuming that it will be crippling. I'm scared that I'm seeing another glamour nerf on the horizon.

The fact that some find it unpleasant to play against Mesmers is not a rationale to nerf.

Please ANET, I "grew up" as a Mesmer,(in the year plus,) after the glamour nerf, when the class was widely acknowledged to be "trash tier" and hambow warriors ruled the world.

I humbly request, as a long time player, that you not cripple my class.

My point is: ANET has a long history of nerfs to Mesmer that turned out to be very heavy. Given this, ANET would be prudent to be cautious and under react rather than over react.

mesmer has ALWAYS been good regardless of what season they been "nerf" and with the current changes to them they have SPIKED up in overall every aspect for build possibilities from Core-Chrono-Mirage. Mesmer are at an ALL time OP current because of the amount of stuff they can do with chrono ..... it's DUMB. Love the class but when you see everyone in their moms playing the class it's for obv reasons.

Makes me sad but I have to agree. Mesmer used to be a hipster class that appealed to select few that were able to make it work. Now it’s everywhere. Hope they make it exclusive again, but who am I kidding, it will get the revenant treatment. Nerfed to unplayable to appease the masses.

Peace.

[Habitax.8124]

@"Egorum.9506" said:It's hard to learn!

If you don't nerf it that's all you'll see next season

I know this is all we will see next season... I am already seeing it now.I am working on a counter build now because ..... There are those who rely on meta and there are select few who always are ahead of meta, which eventually becomes the next meta.

[Uncle Dalty.8327]

@dragonkain.3984 said:Remove perma-reflect on dodge talent for dueling trait line, it makes mesmer an immortal god-mode vs any ranged projectile build or class.

Remove mobility on sword ambush for mirage, which is allowing this class to be faster than thieves, making mesmers a class jack-of-all trades-master-of-all.

Remove ability to physically burst from stealth from 100-0 any class, even warriors. All done with mesmers greatsword. Good idea would be adding some specific sound tell for when sword 2 or 4 are start being casted, which is played even when mesmer is stealthed.

Remove all possibility for vigor applications for mirage, a class that can keep spamming immortality while other classes can not is not healthy for any game, limit mirages dodges only to two per 20 seconds(just like normal dodge cooldown), no way to improve that.2 dodges are enough and should not be increasable in any way if you want to keep it in such overpowered state.

Another solution could be making it less overpowered and removing ability to dodge while stunned/immobilized, making dodge work just like for any other class.

Remove ability to escape combat with portal, just like you did with thiefs shadow trap, Make mesmers second portal use have a long cast-time to prevent that.

dear god.... lmfao

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

@Razor.6392 said:Can we all agree that mesmer is ANet's golden child for once and for all?

(laugh) I'd be lying if I didn't admit this thought has crossed my mind more than a few times. :)

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Can we all agree that mesmer is ANet's golden child for once and for all?

(laugh) I'd be lying if I didn't admit this thought has crossed my mind more than a few times. :)

If you mained Mesmer, I doubt you'd say that.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

@Razor.6392 said:Can we all agree that mesmer is ANet's golden child for once and for all?

(laugh) I'd be lying if I didn't admit this thought has crossed my mind more than a few times. :)

If you mained Mesmer, I doubt you'd say that.

Touché. ;)

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Please consider a Heat Gain reduction for the Holosmith skills that are being considered for nerfs. Thanks.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@"psyt.9415" said:I used to defend Mesmer but enough is enough how can they literally be meta in every single game mode since HoT and slide away with barely any nerfs again it’s getting stupid. One overpowered kitten after another im honestly getting sick of it and this games balance ream for that matter.

How can they beb meta in every game mode? Simple. If you aren't a bunker, basically any dueling spec in PvP is viable in WvW, which is where they are used. As for PvE, raids were designed around mesmers as they weren't seen being used in PvE. Instead of complaining it's meta in every game mode, shouldn't you be HAPPY that someone can play their class in all modes? Shouldn't you want that for ALL classes instead of having a "useless class" when switching game modes? You got this one backwards.

Mesmers werent used on PvE before raids? If I remenber, Mesmers used to be meta on dungeons. I guess nobody is saying that mesmers should be trash tier on PvE/sPvP/WvW, but saying that he shouldnt be a must have in all 3 game modes, theres a huge diference between being viable and being a top profession on the game...guess the only place that Mesmer dont really have a place are on zerg fights, but it compensate for being one of the best(if not the best) small scale fighter.

Well, let me tell you something from someone who plays a lot of mesmer. I now main mesmer in all 3 game modes, mostly because switching is a pain and I'm lazy. I do however have difficulty fighting many classes. If you first thought in response to that is "you are just bad" then what you are really saying is that mesmers aren't the problem, skilled players are. So let's nerf the skilled players, except we can't unless we just make all builds faceroll easy, and that's no fun for anyone. Mesmers have counterplay, and I'm in high gold in PvP, and in a T1 server in WvW, where I play against skilled players. The point is that skilled players can dispatch me as a mesmer, so therefor the mesmer is not a problem. The main thing that people hate about a mesmer is that it can escape, but let's face it, thief is JUST as good, if not better, and we've had portals since core game. Talking from a balance standpoint with skilled players, a mesmer is not OP. Against noobs, it is, but a fresh air ele is OP then as it can one shot a lot of things, as well as thieves, so nerf them too? Oh wait, we all die if you know how to counter any of those, or run with our tail between our legs. Both count as a win for you.

Allright, saying that you are High Gold on sPvP really dosent help to validade your argument, rank have nothing to do with skills, considering the state of the game, being on T3 gold or T1 Plat is nothing impressive...the argument that cause players can kill, and because they can kill you as a mesmer they are "good" players, so that means that mesmer and its specs are balanced...got no words for that lol maybe, just maybe you arent as good as you think you are, and the "good" players that counter and kill you all the time are just decent, you are the one who actually havent learned yet how to play mesmer and use all the tools that it bring to the table...Mesmer have way to much thing on his arsenal, mobility, evades frames, teleports, stealth, damage...but I honestly dont expect Anet to ever balance Mesmer, this game is not competitive, is just a PvE game with some PvP game modes just for fun, shouldnt be taken serious.....you even tried to compare Fresh Air Ele with Power Mesmer specs...

You completely missed the point. I never said that I was a good mesmer, why do you think that I even said that. It was the entire point in fact that I'm not as good as you think that I'm claiming to be. The point that you missed is that mesmers have a lot AVAILABLE, but that doesn't make them overpowered. They still take a lot of skill to use. Compare this to a spellbreaker that literally any moron con run with invulns on invulns. You don't have to be good to play a spellbreaker and be incredibly effective, but you do on a mesmer. Skill floor is a part of balance. If I wanted easy wins, I'd just go play an easy class. INstead, I am playing a class that's actually hard and when I kill people, it means I'm better than them, not that I have an easy class. If I wanted to take a nap while winning games, I'd load up a scourge or spellbreaker. With how easy those are to play, and be insanely effective, I don't see how you could call mesmer OP comparatively.

Mirage is as easy to play and win on as any spellbreaker. You're kidding yourself if you think a win on a mirage is due to player skill.

[Kahyos.1437]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@"psyt.9415" said:I used to defend Mesmer but enough is enough how can they literally be meta in every single game mode since HoT and slide away with barely any nerfs again it’s getting stupid. One overpowered kitten after another im honestly getting sick of it and this games balance ream for that matter.

How can they beb meta in every game mode? Simple. If you aren't a bunker, basically any dueling spec in PvP is viable in WvW, which is where they are used. As for PvE, raids were designed around mesmers as they weren't seen being used in PvE. Instead of complaining it's meta in every game mode, shouldn't you be HAPPY that someone can play their class in all modes? Shouldn't you want that for ALL classes instead of having a "useless class" when switching game modes? You got this one backwards.

Mesmers werent used on PvE before raids? If I remenber, Mesmers used to be meta on dungeons. I guess nobody is saying that mesmers should be trash tier on PvE/sPvP/WvW, but saying that he shouldnt be a must have in all 3 game modes, theres a huge diference between being viable and being a top profession on the game...guess the only place that Mesmer dont really have a place are on zerg fights, but it compensate for being one of the best(if not the best) small scale fighter.

Well, let me tell you something from someone who plays a lot of mesmer. I now main mesmer in all 3 game modes, mostly because switching is a pain and I'm lazy. I do however have difficulty fighting many classes. If you first thought in response to that is "you are just bad" then what you are really saying is that mesmers aren't the problem, skilled players are. So let's nerf the skilled players, except we can't unless we just make all builds faceroll easy, and that's no fun for anyone. Mesmers have counterplay, and I'm in high gold in PvP, and in a T1 server in WvW, where I play against skilled players. The point is that skilled players can dispatch me as a mesmer, so therefor the mesmer is not a problem. The main thing that people hate about a mesmer is that it can escape, but let's face it, thief is JUST as good, if not better, and we've had portals since core game. Talking from a balance standpoint with skilled players, a mesmer is not OP. Against noobs, it is, but a fresh air ele is OP then as it can one shot a lot of things, as well as thieves, so nerf them too? Oh wait, we all die if you know how to counter any of those, or run with our tail between our legs. Both count as a win for you.

Allright, saying that you are High Gold on sPvP really dosent help to validade your argument, rank have nothing to do with skills, considering the state of the game, being on T3 gold or T1 Plat is nothing impressive...the argument that cause players can kill, and because they can kill you as a mesmer they are "good" players, so that means that mesmer and its specs are balanced...got no words for that lol maybe, just maybe you arent as good as you think you are, and the "good" players that counter and kill you all the time are just decent, you are the one who actually havent learned yet how to play mesmer and use all the tools that it bring to the table...Mesmer have way to much thing on his arsenal, mobility, evades frames, teleports, stealth, damage...but I honestly dont expect Anet to ever balance Mesmer, this game is not competitive, is just a PvE game with some PvP game modes just for fun, shouldnt be taken serious.....you even tried to compare Fresh Air Ele with Power Mesmer specs...

You completely missed the point. I never said that I was a good mesmer, why do you think that I even said that. It was the entire point in fact that I'm not as good as you think that I'm claiming to be. The point that you missed is that mesmers have a lot AVAILABLE, but that doesn't make them overpowered. They still take a lot of skill to use. Compare this to a spellbreaker that literally any moron con run with invulns on invulns. You don't have to be good to play a spellbreaker and be incredibly effective, but you do on a mesmer. Skill floor is a part of balance. If I wanted easy wins, I'd just go play an easy class. INstead, I am playing a class that's actually hard and when I kill people, it means I'm better than them, not that I have an easy class. If I wanted to take a nap while winning games, I'd load up a scourge or spellbreaker. With how easy those are to play, and be insanely effective, I don't see how you could call mesmer OP comparatively.

Mirage is as easy to play and win on as any spellbreaker. You're kidding yourself if you think a win on a mirage is due to player skill.

If he wins with non meta classes or builds then maybe.. But mirage is as meta as it gets right now.

[Uncle Dalty.8327]

man.... so many L2P issues out there.... I can't speak for condi or bunker-type mirage builds, but as far as the power mirage builds go; it is so incredibly easy to dodge the burst if you use 10% of your brain and are actually paying attention to the area around you (up to 1500 units out if it's a good mes). And once the burst is done it take 2 maybe 3 good hits to the mes from a sb, teef, holo, dh, soulbeast, ele, scourge, you name it, to kill the mes.... Yes, a good mes will make it hard to hit them but so will a good teef, weaver, druid or sb. Take that maneuverability away and you've got yourself a nice kamikaze build that never actually takes anything down when people are paying attention... just learn to bait, kite, and time your bursts....

Yes, Mirage could use some tweaks here and there, but the majority of the complaining I see/hear is just from people not understanding the class.

Edit: I should emphasize further: I've mained mes since release. I don't ever roll condi because I find all condi builds pretty cheese and do not enjoy the play-style. I also do not play bunker as I just do not enjoy it as much, though I have played it and do think the bunker builds on mes are way to easy for the pay off (especially since you can dish out quit a bit of damage at the same time)... I mean it's the same for the condi builds too. I do not see much of the low level play anymore but I could very easily see that the power mes could be supper 'easy' for nubs to pick up and wreak new or bad players, but it takes a bit more to pull off when people actually do learn to counter.... which is the whole reason mes is hard to balance I guess.... must appease the scrublings out there.

[Turk.5460]

You can truly distinguish the flavor-of-the-month bandwagoners who want the game to play for them... vs. the veteran Mesmers who understand balance - based on responses like many of the above...

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

@Turk.5460 said:You can truly distinguish the flavor-of-the-month bandwagoners who want the game to play for them... vs. the veteran Mesmers who understand balance - based on responses like many of the above...

I love this comment. Too many people see a mesmer blast them down and assume that they got an easy kill. They start a mesmer, learn one burst, and think that's all it takes to roll with the big boys. When a new meta pops up, the first thing I see is complaints everywhere while the good players stay quiet and learn the counterplay, and move on from there. Only weeks later will we actually know what's OP based on how well the good players can counterplay. Just a repeat of what happened when Deadeye got introduced and one shot everyone from stealth. Bad players still call that OP, but they never even bother to try to kill them, just watch their teammates die, and complain.

[Solori.6025]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@"Cal Cohen.3527" said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Can you do us an awesome favor and ask the balance team "What is the intended weakness of mesmer in PvP?". This would help us come up with an answer in more ways than one.

Its Thief.Thief is always the answer

[Egorum.9506]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@"psyt.9415" said:I used to defend Mesmer but enough is enough how can they literally be meta in every single game mode since HoT and slide away with barely any nerfs again it’s getting stupid. One overpowered kitten after another im honestly getting sick of it and this games balance ream for that matter.

How can they beb meta in every game mode? Simple. If you aren't a bunker, basically any dueling spec in PvP is viable in WvW, which is where they are used. As for PvE, raids were designed around mesmers as they weren't seen being used in PvE. Instead of complaining it's meta in every game mode, shouldn't you be HAPPY that someone can play their class in all modes? Shouldn't you want that for ALL classes instead of having a "useless class" when switching game modes? You got this one backwards.

Mesmers werent used on PvE before raids? If I remenber, Mesmers used to be meta on dungeons. I guess nobody is saying that mesmers should be trash tier on PvE/sPvP/WvW, but saying that he shouldnt be a must have in all 3 game modes, theres a huge diference between being viable and being a top profession on the game...guess the only place that Mesmer dont really have a place are on zerg fights, but it compensate for being one of the best(if not the best) small scale fighter.

Well, let me tell you something from someone who plays a lot of mesmer. I now main mesmer in all 3 game modes, mostly because switching is a pain and I'm lazy. I do however have difficulty fighting many classes. If you first thought in response to that is "you are just bad" then what you are really saying is that mesmers aren't the problem, skilled players are. So let's nerf the skilled players, except we can't unless we just make all builds faceroll easy, and that's no fun for anyone. Mesmers have counterplay, and I'm in high gold in PvP, and in a T1 server in WvW, where I play against skilled players. The point is that skilled players can dispatch me as a mesmer, so therefor the mesmer is not a problem. The main thing that people hate about a mesmer is that it can escape, but let's face it, thief is JUST as good, if not better, and we've had portals since core game. Talking from a balance standpoint with skilled players, a mesmer is not OP. Against noobs, it is, but a fresh air ele is OP then as it can one shot a lot of things, as well as thieves, so nerf them too? Oh wait, we all die if you know how to counter any of those, or run with our tail between our legs. Both count as a win for you.

Allright, saying that you are High Gold on sPvP really dosent help to validade your argument, rank have nothing to do with skills, considering the state of the game, being on T3 gold or T1 Plat is nothing impressive...the argument that cause players can kill, and because they can kill you as a mesmer they are "good" players, so that means that mesmer and its specs are balanced...got no words for that lol maybe, just maybe you arent as good as you think you are, and the "good" players that counter and kill you all the time are just decent, you are the one who actually havent learned yet how to play mesmer and use all the tools that it bring to the table...Mesmer have way to much thing on his arsenal, mobility, evades frames, teleports, stealth, damage...but I honestly dont expect Anet to ever balance Mesmer, this game is not competitive, is just a PvE game with some PvP game modes just for fun, shouldnt be taken serious.....you even tried to compare Fresh Air Ele with Power Mesmer specs...

You completely missed the point. I never said that I was a good mesmer, why do you think that I even said that. It was the entire point in fact that I'm not as good as you think that I'm claiming to be. The point that you missed is that mesmers have a lot AVAILABLE, but that doesn't make them overpowered. They still take a lot of skill to use. Compare this to a spellbreaker that literally any moron con run with invulns on invulns. You don't have to be good to play a spellbreaker and be incredibly effective, but you do on a mesmer. Skill floor is a part of balance. If I wanted easy wins, I'd just go play an easy class. INstead, I am playing a class that's actually hard and when I kill people, it means I'm better than them, not that I have an easy class. If I wanted to take a nap while winning games, I'd load up a scourge or spellbreaker. With how easy those are to play, and be insanely effective, I don't see how you could call mesmer OP comparatively.

Mirage is as easy to play and win on as any spellbreaker. You're kidding yourself if you think a win on a mirage is due to player skill.

As is shown here:

I have a whopping 80 hours played on mes over the last 5 years

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

@Egorum.9506 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@"psyt.9415" said:I used to defend Mesmer but enough is enough how can they literally be meta in every single game mode since HoT and slide away with barely any nerfs again it’s getting stupid. One overpowered kitten after another im honestly getting sick of it and this games balance ream for that matter.

How can they beb meta in every game mode? Simple. If you aren't a bunker, basically any dueling spec in PvP is viable in WvW, which is where they are used. As for PvE, raids were designed around mesmers as they weren't seen being used in PvE. Instead of complaining it's meta in every game mode, shouldn't you be HAPPY that someone can play their class in all modes? Shouldn't you want that for ALL classes instead of having a "useless class" when switching game modes? You got this one backwards.

Mesmers werent used on PvE before raids? If I remenber, Mesmers used to be meta on dungeons. I guess nobody is saying that mesmers should be trash tier on PvE/sPvP/WvW, but saying that he shouldnt be a must have in all 3 game modes, theres a huge diference between being viable and being a top profession on the game...guess the only place that Mesmer dont really have a place are on zerg fights, but it compensate for being one of the best(if not the best) small scale fighter.

Well, let me tell you something from someone who plays a lot of mesmer. I now main mesmer in all 3 game modes, mostly because switching is a pain and I'm lazy. I do however have difficulty fighting many classes. If you first thought in response to that is "you are just bad" then what you are really saying is that mesmers aren't the problem, skilled players are. So let's nerf the skilled players, except we can't unless we just make all builds faceroll easy, and that's no fun for anyone. Mesmers have counterplay, and I'm in high gold in PvP, and in a T1 server in WvW, where I play against skilled players. The point is that skilled players can dispatch me as a mesmer, so therefor the mesmer is not a problem. The main thing that people hate about a mesmer is that it can escape, but let's face it, thief is JUST as good, if not better, and we've had portals since core game. Talking from a balance standpoint with skilled players, a mesmer is not OP. Against noobs, it is, but a fresh air ele is OP then as it can one shot a lot of things, as well as thieves, so nerf them too? Oh wait, we all die if you know how to counter any of those, or run with our tail between our legs. Both count as a win for you.

Allright, saying that you are High Gold on sPvP really dosent help to validade your argument, rank have nothing to do with skills, considering the state of the game, being on T3 gold or T1 Plat is nothing impressive...the argument that cause players can kill, and because they can kill you as a mesmer they are "good" players, so that means that mesmer and its specs are balanced...got no words for that lol maybe, just maybe you arent as good as you think you are, and the "good" players that counter and kill you all the time are just decent, you are the one who actually havent learned yet how to play mesmer and use all the tools that it bring to the table...Mesmer have way to much thing on his arsenal, mobility, evades frames, teleports, stealth, damage...but I honestly dont expect Anet to ever balance Mesmer, this game is not competitive, is just a PvE game with some PvP game modes just for fun, shouldnt be taken serious.....you even tried to compare Fresh Air Ele with Power Mesmer specs...

You completely missed the point. I never said that I was a good mesmer, why do you think that I even said that. It was the entire point in fact that I'm not as good as you think that I'm claiming to be. The point that you missed is that mesmers have a lot AVAILABLE, but that doesn't make them overpowered. They still take a lot of skill to use. Compare this to a spellbreaker that literally any moron con run with invulns on invulns. You don't have to be good to play a spellbreaker and be incredibly effective, but you do on a mesmer. Skill floor is a part of balance. If I wanted easy wins, I'd just go play an easy class. INstead, I am playing a class that's actually hard and when I kill people, it means I'm better than them, not that I have an easy class. If I wanted to take a nap while winning games, I'd load up a scourge or spellbreaker. With how easy those are to play, and be insanely effective, I don't see how you could call mesmer OP comparatively.

Mirage is as easy to play and win on as any spellbreaker. You're kidding yourself if you think a win on a mirage is due to player skill.

As is shown here:

I have a whopping 80 hours played on mes over the last 5 yearsAnd you have some seriously low skilled opponents. You won fair and square. The best matchup with with the ranger, and that fight was won because of a +1. The rest was basically people ignoring you and paying the price. Same thing happens if you ignore a fresh air or rifle stealth thief. Doesn't make it broken, it means that players actually need to, you know, think about which target to attack? Most players these days all look at the thing that isn't dying and attack that to kill it, not thinking about where damage is coming from. I've had a team of 4 people that COMPLETELY IGNORED a thief, not even in stealth, just sniping and yelled at me constantly for dying to him when no one would even look his way. Glass connons have a place, and they absolutely wreck low skilled players every time. I really don't know at all what you are complaining about unless you just want all power builds gone from the game, while everyone also complains that we have a bunker meta and that's bad. People need to die in order to make a match fun, and players that ignore the cannon will do so. Just watch out for players with brains, you won't last as long, and if you do, you are just running, not killing.

[Egorum.9506]

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Egorum.9506 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@Felipe.1807 said:

@thatdarnkatz.7168 said:

@"psyt.9415" said:I used to defend Mesmer but enough is enough how can they literally be meta in every single game mode since HoT and slide away with barely any nerfs again it’s getting stupid. One overpowered kitten after another im honestly getting sick of it and this games balance ream for that matter.

How can they beb meta in every game mode? Simple. If you aren't a bunker, basically any dueling spec in PvP is viable in WvW, which is where they are used. As for PvE, raids were designed around mesmers as they weren't seen being used in PvE. Instead of complaining it's meta in every game mode, shouldn't you be HAPPY that someone can play their class in all modes? Shouldn't you want that for ALL classes instead of having a "useless class" when switching game modes? You got this one backwards.

Mesmers werent used on PvE before raids? If I remenber, Mesmers used to be meta on dungeons. I guess nobody is saying that mesmers should be trash tier on PvE/sPvP/WvW, but saying that he shouldnt be a must have in all 3 game modes, theres a huge diference between being viable and being a top profession on the game...guess the only place that Mesmer dont really have a place are on zerg fights, but it compensate for being one of the best(if not the best) small scale fighter.

Well, let me tell you something from someone who plays a lot of mesmer. I now main mesmer in all 3 game modes, mostly because switching is a pain and I'm lazy. I do however have difficulty fighting many classes. If you first thought in response to that is "you are just bad" then what you are really saying is that mesmers aren't the problem, skilled players are. So let's nerf the skilled players, except we can't unless we just make all builds faceroll easy, and that's no fun for anyone. Mesmers have counterplay, and I'm in high gold in PvP, and in a T1 server in WvW, where I play against skilled players. The point is that skilled players can dispatch me as a mesmer, so therefor the mesmer is not a problem. The main thing that people hate about a mesmer is that it can escape, but let's face it, thief is JUST as good, if not better, and we've had portals since core game. Talking from a balance standpoint with skilled players, a mesmer is not OP. Against noobs, it is, but a fresh air ele is OP then as it can one shot a lot of things, as well as thieves, so nerf them too? Oh wait, we all die if you know how to counter any of those, or run with our tail between our legs. Both count as a win for you.

Allright, saying that you are High Gold on sPvP really dosent help to validade your argument, rank have nothing to do with skills, considering the state of the game, being on T3 gold or T1 Plat is nothing impressive...the argument that cause players can kill, and because they can kill you as a mesmer they are "good" players, so that means that mesmer and its specs are balanced...got no words for that lol maybe, just maybe you arent as good as you think you are, and the "good" players that counter and kill you all the time are just decent, you are the one who actually havent learned yet how to play mesmer and use all the tools that it bring to the table...Mesmer have way to much thing on his arsenal, mobility, evades frames, teleports, stealth, damage...but I honestly dont expect Anet to ever balance Mesmer, this game is not competitive, is just a PvE game with some PvP game modes just for fun, shouldnt be taken serious.....you even tried to compare Fresh Air Ele with Power Mesmer specs...

You completely missed the point. I never said that I was a good mesmer, why do you think that I even said that. It was the entire point in fact that I'm not as good as you think that I'm claiming to be. The point that you missed is that mesmers have a lot AVAILABLE, but that doesn't make them overpowered. They still take a lot of skill to use. Compare this to a spellbreaker that literally any moron con run with invulns on invulns. You don't have to be good to play a spellbreaker and be incredibly effective, but you do on a mesmer. Skill floor is a part of balance. If I wanted easy wins, I'd just go play an easy class. INstead, I am playing a class that's actually hard and when I kill people, it means I'm better than them, not that I have an easy class. If I wanted to take a nap while winning games, I'd load up a scourge or spellbreaker. With how easy those are to play, and be insanely effective, I don't see how you could call mesmer OP comparatively.

Mirage is as easy to play and win on as any spellbreaker. You're kidding yourself if you think a win on a mirage is due to player skill.

As is shown here:

I have a whopping 80 hours played on mes over the last 5 yearsAnd you have some seriously low skilled opponents. You won fair and square. The best matchup with with the ranger, and that fight was won because of a +1. The rest was basically people ignoring you and paying the price. Same thing happens if you ignore a fresh air or rifle stealth thief. Doesn't make it broken, it means that players actually need to, you know, think about which target to attack? Most players these days all look at the thing that isn't dying and attack that to kill it, not thinking about where damage is coming from. I've had a team of 4 people that COMPLETELY IGNORED a thief, not even in stealth, just sniping and yelled at me constantly for dying to him when no one would even look his way. Glass connons have a place, and they absolutely wreck low skilled players every time. I really don't know at all what you are complaining about unless you just want all power builds gone from the game, while everyone also complains that we have a bunker meta and that's bad. People need to die in order to make a match fun, and players that ignore the cannon will do so. Just watch out for players with brains, you won't last as long, and if you do, you are just running, not killing.

I'm not complaining, I love playing mesmer. I'm showing that the skill floor is very low for its degree of effectiveness. I'm showing that it doesn't die even in zerker gear. I went 29:1 kdr on a game today, I've only played maybe 10 games with this build lmao.