Mesmer deceives its way past the PVP & WVW split

[musu.9205]

@BlackBeard.2873 said:I like what OriOri said quite a bit..

As far as EM goes, you could also consider a sharp dps reduction while evading. Something like...while under mirage cloak...you do -50% damage.

So...its not used in every meta build, but it is a GM trait at adept tier. I would suggest adding a debuff to shatterstorm, something like:

Mind Wrack is now an ammo skill. Mind Wrack does -25% damage (PvP only).

I would also add that phantasms should have their dps just toned down in pvp overall.

so what's the purpose of mirage cloak , and since mirror is still useless , ambush beside sword are still trash , what's the purpose of mirage special mechanic ? its not like mirage has DD level of dodge and endurance gain through skill / trait .mind wrack is not ammo skill , its only an ammo skill with shatterstorm , why you want to nerf it alone ?maybe 10% dmg nerf to shatter storm or 3s icd for between each mind wrack , power mesmer doesn't need heavy nerf .

phantasm damage is fine , power mesmer wasn't viable , one big reason is they didn't have enough sustain damage , after recentl patch , they finally got it .and if someone dies to izerker with cs and signet heal , that's a huge learn to play issue .I'm sorry a giant spinning phantasm moving towards you after 0.75s cast time with clear animation tell is supposed to do some meaningful damage . and the skill cd is 15s .and they are going to idisenchantist cd (to 25s ) what's more you want , funny how idisenchantist build would never be meta but hey hate are going to hate .

[Flauvious.6195]

Whatever you do for mesmer, can you please reduce the clutter caused by clones and phantasms being seperate? It was bad enough when each mesmer meant 3 extra characters in a fight, but now there's 6+ people running around absorbing targeted skills (rev sword cries) and lagging out team fights. Mesmer does not need this much clone gen.

[Arlette.9684]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

I have a few thoughts on the listed mesmer changes, but to sum them up in one sentence - I think they are pretty bad. They don't address the burst issues mesmer has, they don't address the fact that we can have sustain in chrono and still pull off a deadly burst, but most importantly (to me) is the nerf to EM. I never agreed with the exhaustion mechanic back when it was placed on UC, but it especially doesn't make sense on EM. Mirage does not offer flat endurance regen, so exhaustion cuts out all of our endurance regen while we have it. But more than that, Mirage uses dodges offensively, whereas UC was a purely defensive skill. Not only do we not have the flat endurance regen to sort of offput the exhaustion in a limited scope, but we also lose out on a lot of potential offensive pressure, all while having 50 less endurance to start with than DD got. Simply put, the exhaustion has a significantly higher burden on Mirage than it does on DD.

Take a look at the mesmer forums for some better ideas on EM. My favorites are to either simply remove the stunbreak (potentially adding something else there), give the stunbreak a ~10sec ICD, but have an UI element showing when it is available (such as changing the color of our endurance bar), or change it so that it turns stuns into dazes, allowing us to move but not use skills (the opposite of confounding suggestions)

Along with that, I would propose the following changes to mesmer

• Shatter Storm needs to be removed
  or
  at the very least given the Imagined burden treatment wherein each charge of MW would be about 25% weaker than a regular MW
• Chronophantasma should be changed so that the phantasms do not become clones at all. Getting 2 phantasms from a single skill is enough of a tradeoff to not obtain any clones at all. This would go quite a ways to combat clone generation spam in chrono builds atm.

But other than that I would like to leave the class more or less alone for right now (the rest of your listed changes look good to me btw). It just had its complete overhaul and I am scared of you guys reactively nerfing too much of it because just a few pieces are overperforming, and turning it into trash. I think that Em and the 2 above changes are some of the biggest pain points right now, and would like to change those and re-evaluate the class a few weeks after it goes live to see what else should be changed.

Omg 100% agree! I’ve been unhappy with Shatter Storm so much. Literally took any timing and setup off the equation. I don’t think a 25% is going to be enough. If you spec properly you can still 1 shot just about anything even with that reduction.My chrono record is 7200 a piece, times 4.

[BlackBeard.2873]

@musu.9205 said:

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:I like what OriOri said quite a bit..

As far as EM goes, you could also consider a sharp dps reduction while evading. Something like...while under mirage cloak...you do -50% damage.

So...its not used in every meta build, but it is a GM trait at adept tier. I would suggest adding a debuff to shatterstorm, something like:

Mind Wrack is now an ammo skill. Mind Wrack does -25% damage (PvP only).

I would also add that phantasms should have their dps just toned down in pvp overall.

so what's the purpose of mirage cloak , and since mirror is still useless , ambush beside sword are still trash , what's the purpose of mirage special mechanic ? its not like mirage has DD level of dodge and endurance gain through skill / trait .

Mirage cloak would see this reduction IF you take elusive mind. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This means making your dodges "god mode" defensively means that they are a poor offensive tool. A good choice for some builds, and a poor one for others.

mind wrack is not ammo skill , its only an ammo skill with shatterstorm , why you want to nerf it alone ?maybe 10% dmg nerf to shatter storm or 3s icd for between each mind wrack , power mesmer doesn't need heavy nerf .

Again, this was operating under the assumption that TAKE shatterstorm. So IF you take shatterstorm, your Mind Wracks are now more frequent/consistent damage, but less overall. Less risk...less reward. As it is, shattestorm is EASILY a GM level trait given cheaply at adept.

phantasm damage is fine , power mesmer wasn't viable , one big reason is they didn't have enough sustain damage , after recentl patch , they finally got it .and if someone dies to izerker with cs and signet heal , that's a huge learn to play issue .I'm sorry a giant spinning phantasm moving towards you after 0.75s cast time with clear animation tell is supposed to do some meaningful damage . and the skill cd is 15s .and they are going to idisenchantist cd (to 25s ) what's more you want , funny how idisenchantist build would never be meta but hey hate are going to hate .

The problem with power-mesmer now is that phantasms need to be dodged, mind wrack needs to be dodged, mirror blade needs to be dodged...and mesmer/mirage can do their whole shebang without ever being vulnerable. Everything can't be a "must dodge." Look at FA ele (not talking weaver)...it is relatively balanced. You have to dodge phoenix (on a 20s CD, which also is a REALLY SLOW PROJECTILE if you think phantasms are slow)...and that is the main huge burst. When fighting burst v. burst...you have to play very smart about using that skill as counter-bursting is one of your major defensive capabilities, and missing that can mean you lose the fight, so you take your time to set it up and time it right. Mesmer nowadays doesn't need to really setup their clones or burst, because its all so cheap and easy, even it misses you just fire off another burst in a couple seconds. Recent changes to phantasms put them in that range of "1-shot" skills (or at least 50% of your life if you aren't super-tanky).

[Aza.2105]

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Hey Cmc, I'm kinda confused what you guys mean by splits? Meaning any suggestions we make need to be split between PvP and WvW?

When splitting a skill we're looking at changing numbers on skills rather than functionality.

• Damage/healing numbers
• Cooldowns
• Durations of boons/conditions/effects

Essentially the skill should behave the same in every game mode, but can be more or less effective at what it does on a per-gamemode basis.

I read through the list, its pretty amazing man. Looking forward to this patch.

[musu.9205]

@BlackBeard.2873 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@BlackBeard.2873 said:I like what OriOri said quite a bit..

As far as EM goes, you could also consider a sharp dps reduction while evading. Something like...while under mirage cloak...you do -50% damage.

So...its not used in every meta build, but it is a GM trait at adept tier. I would suggest adding a debuff to shatterstorm, something like:

Mind Wrack is now an ammo skill. Mind Wrack does -25% damage (PvP only).

I would also add that phantasms should have their dps just toned down in pvp overall.

so what's the purpose of mirage cloak , and since mirror is still useless , ambush beside sword are still trash , what's the purpose of mirage special mechanic ? its not like mirage has DD level of dodge and endurance gain through skill / trait .

Mirage cloak would see this reduction IF you take elusive mind. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. This means making your dodges "god mode" defensively means that they are a poor offensive tool. A good choice for some builds, and a poor one for others.

mind wrack is not ammo skill , its only an ammo skill with shatterstorm , why you want to nerf it alone ?maybe 10% dmg nerf to shatter storm or 3s icd for between each mind wrack , power mesmer doesn't need heavy nerf .

Again, this was operating under the assumption that TAKE shatterstorm. So IF you take shatterstorm, your Mind Wracks are now more frequent/consistent damage, but less overall. Less risk...less reward. As it is, shattestorm is EASILY a GM level trait given cheaply at adept.

phantasm damage is fine , power mesmer wasn't viable , one big reason is they didn't have enough sustain damage , after recentl patch , they finally got it .and if someone dies to izerker with cs and signet heal , that's a huge learn to play issue .I'm sorry a giant spinning phantasm moving towards you after 0.75s cast time with clear animation tell is supposed to do some meaningful damage . and the skill cd is 15s .and they are going to idisenchantist cd (to 25s ) what's more you want , funny how idisenchantist build would never be meta but hey hate are going to hate .

The problem with power-mesmer now is that phantasms need to be dodged, mind wrack needs to be dodged, mirror blade needs to be dodged...and mesmer/mirage can do their whole shebang without ever being vulnerable. Everything can't be a "must dodge." Look at FA ele (not talking weaver)...it is relatively balanced. You have to dodge phoenix (on a 20s CD, which also is a REALLY SLOW PROJECTILE if you think phantasms are slow)...and that is the main huge burst. Everything else is a culmination of a bunch of small cuts. Recent changes to phantasms put them in that range of "1-shot" skills (or at least 50% of your life if you aren't super-tanky).

then i mostly agree . but like ori said , i would rather than they remove the stunbreaker part , and add something else to mirage dodge .phantasm is indeed slower than phoneix , coz no mattter where you cast izerk will start the animation from certain distance , its not just 0.75s cast time . and they can be killed still . 10% dmg reduce to izerker maybe .if you wan to nerf its damage further, maybe also buff the attack speed . FA is balanced for its power level , it's not balanced design wise , it is true instantly damage with almost no tell except ele just swap out of air .iduelist and swordsman could use some attack speed buff as well . offhand sword and pistol were meh for over 5 years , and are still bad . offhand 4 daze could change to something like image attack , a cone daze instead of that bolt which doesn't hit anyone .

[Aza.2105]

What makes Mesmer too strong is: lots of dodge, stealth, block, clones, evade and invul. Its too much defense. All while doing massive damage. Its too much. You should not be able to have amazing sustaining power while having high damage and the ability to escape at will to reset fights.

[musu.9205]

@Aza.2105 said:What makes Mesmer too strong is: lots of dodge, stealth, block, clones, evade and invul. Its too much defense. All while doing massive damage. Its too much. You should not be able to have amazing sustaining power while having high damage and the ability to escape at will to reset fights.

power mirage has literally same amount of dodge as any classes . 2 stealth skill if you use signet, both have long cd .it doesn't not have any block . clone is mesmer mechanic . the invuln is on 60s cd .

[Zintrothen.1056]

Can you give us a hint on whether or not you'll be changing Weaver's sword mechanics to make it more reliable at hitting something? You made no changes to damage, and a weapon that doesn't hit often should hit hard. Like hammers. Hammers are slow and hit hard (in some cases, not hard enough), but swords are fast weapons. I'm actually fine if sword doesn't see a single damage buff ever again (until the next power creep xpac), but it needs to faster and have a greater range on the duel skills. Ele will likely continue to be dead because a squishy spec can actually tank sword's damage. No joke. Freaking thieves can tank its damage. Arguably one of the squishiest professions can tank...something at all.

So if you have no plans to increase power coefficients for sword, then you need to change its mechanics. I would be glad to give you a whole list of ideas for every single sword skill (and actually everything that Weaver has) that would make the spec miles better, and I would do this all for free!

Also, Stone Resonance needs much more barrier than less than 100 per pulse. Even after the Holo and SB nerfs, Weavers won't be able to tank their damage. I can spec Earth, Arcane and Weaver with Knight's Amulet and Stone Resonance, the auto proc trait, Invigorating Strikes...anything that helps against power damage...and still need to evade every Holo and SB attack because their damage is so high. And don't even get me started on Mesmers. So can we please also get some barrier buffs? Something at the level of Scourge (or higher since they do more damage) would be the absolute minimum.

If you keep this up, you're going to lose many more players. You need to start listening to our suggestions and actively have discussions about possible changes you're proposing more often, just like you're doing now. We're telling you what we want. And what we want is also what new and old, returning players want.

I've now told you what I think you should do. Give us a hint that you want to change Weaver's sword mechanics to make it more reliable at hitting something. In the end, it's the only thing that'll make Weaver good. Take a look at other professions and see what makes them meta. Mesmer: tons of AoE damage. Holo: tons of AoE damage. SB: tons of AoE damage. Druid: not much AoE damage but immortality is just as good. Thief: insane mobility and a nearly spammable, unblockable, boon stealing nuke. Firebrand: actually kind of balanced. It's a mortal support spec. Probably the most balanced meta spec at the moment, even if some professions can't kill it alone. But...it can put out tons of AoE damage too.

AoE damage! That's what makes a spec good. Renegade has that but only on long CDs with high energy costs. Soulbeast doesn't have that. Weaver doesn't have that. But at least Soulbeast and Weaver can survive something for a few seconds. Renegade just plops dead when someone looks at it. Anyway, enough about the worst spec in the game. Buff Weaver... give us more barrier and better sword mechanics. This concludes my rant.

[Razor.6392]

@Aza.2105 said:What makes Mesmer too strong is: lots of dodge, stealth, block, clones, evade and invul. Its too much defense. All while doing massive damage. Its too much. You should not be able to have amazing sustaining power while having high damage and the ability to escape at will to reset fights.

Don't forget the disorienting nature of mirage. Many spells break targeting and some others reposition yourself and your clones. Even with a build with lots of AoE, you cannot quickly identify which one is the real player.

[zealex.9410]

@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Confounding suggestion is probably the most frustrating thing about mesmers personally. The instant burst from stealth is problematic too. No idea exactly what to change so I just try to articulate what I find annoying.

Mesmer stealth doesnt last for a week when they stealth u know they will go for the burst combo.

[zealex.9410]

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Hey Cmc, I'm kinda confused what you guys mean by splits? Meaning any suggestions we make need to be split between PvP and WvW?

When splitting a skill we're looking at changing numbers on skills rather than functionality.

• Damage/healing numbers
• Cooldowns
• Durations of boons/conditions/effects

Essentially the skill should behave the same in every game mode, but can be more or less effective at what it does on a per-gamemode basis.

As it has been said by some ppl the boon game in pvp and wvw is really high toning that down too (stack/duration wise) would be a welvome change imo.

[musu.9205]

@Razor.6392 said:

@Aza.2105 said:What makes Mesmer too strong is: lots of dodge, stealth, block, clones, evade and invul. Its too much defense. All while doing massive damage. Its too much. You should not be able to have amazing sustaining power while having high damage and the ability to escape at will to reset fights.

Don't forget the disorienting nature of mirage. Many spells break targeting and some others reposition yourself and your clones. Even with a build with lots of AoE, you cannot quickly identify which one is the real player.

you know the meta build use none of target break skills lol . but keep going .

[zealex.9410]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

I have a few thoughts on the listed mesmer changes, but to sum them up in one sentence - I think they are pretty bad. They don't address the burst issues mesmer has, they don't address the fact that we can have sustain in chrono and still pull off a deadly burst, but most importantly (to me) is the nerf to EM. I never agreed with the exhaustion mechanic back when it was placed on UC, but it especially doesn't make sense on EM. Mirage does not offer flat endurance regen, so exhaustion cuts out all of our endurance regen while we have it. But more than that, Mirage uses dodges offensively, whereas UC was a purely defensive skill. Not only do we not have the flat endurance regen to sort of offput the exhaustion in a limited scope, but we also lose out on a lot of potential offensive pressure, all while having 50 less endurance to start with than DD got. Simply put, the exhaustion has a significantly higher burden on Mirage than it does on DD.

Take a look at the mesmer forums for some better ideas on EM. My favorites are to either simply remove the stunbreak (potentially adding something else there), give the stunbreak a ~10sec ICD, but have an UI element showing when it is available (such as changing the color of our endurance bar), or change it so that it turns stuns into dazes, allowing us to move but not use skills (the opposite of confounding suggestions)

Along with that, I would propose the following changes to mesmer

• Shatter Storm needs to be removed
  or
  at the very least given the Imagined burden treatment wherein each charge of MW would be about 25% weaker than a regular MW
• Chronophantasma should be changed so that the phantasms do not become clones at all. Getting 2 phantasms from a single skill is enough of a tradeoff to not obtain any clones at all. This would go quite a ways to combat clone generation spam in chrono builds atm.

But other than that I would like to leave the class more or less alone for right now (the rest of your listed changes look good to me btw). It just had its complete overhaul and I am scared of you guys reactively nerfing too much of it because just a few pieces are overperforming, and turning it into trash. I think that Em and the 2 above changes are some of the biggest pain points right now, and would like to change those and re-evaluate the class a few weeks after it goes live to see what else should be changed.

Honestly what Ori said. Its the best way to aproach mesmer rn. But then again im not sure how much cab that be split since its changes the function rather than number. U could make this a universal change and let us test how it affects pve chrono builds. All in all tho i think this is for the best imho.

@Cal Cohen.3527

[Simonoly.4352]

@OriOri.8724 said:or change it so that it turns stuns into dazes, allowing us to move but not use skills (the opposite of confounding suggestions)

I think this would be kind of cool and fun to use. Although I would extend it to all control effects that are not conditions.

Thematically, it would be rather mesmer-like to self-daze instead of being launched, stunned, Knocked down etc

[rank eleven monk.9502]

Although the complaints about Mirage Power are way over the top (lot of people simply don't understand how the mirage works and how to negate them, e.g. using the no-evade frames to burst them), I agree that Mirage needs some slight toning IF the other nerfs are bound to happen (e.g. holo, spellbreaker, etc.). I'm a power mirage since PoF release (and a very long time mesmer pvper), so I have some understanding about the issues.

My suggestions is to focus on the full burst builds, not the traditional GS skills of power mesmer:

• leave GS skills alone, maybe revise GS4 thrown damage, but that's it. if you touch anything else, power will become obsolote forever in pvp. If you actually reduce thrown damage of GS4, it should be around 10-15% decrease imo. Power mesmer has only been a problem since the last patch in PvP.
• Phantasmal Haste: it should still give Quickness to Phantasms, but the player should receive Quickness AFTER the phantasm transforms to a clone. This way you reduce the instant burst. This is a very important step to make imo.
• Imagined Burden: Reduces berserker phantasm damage by 30% instead of 25%. Or, change it to reduce the phantasm damage by 50% and bring back a small might on hit (like it used to be)
• Mental Anguish: Damage Increase: 10/15%, Damage Increase vs. Inactivity: 25% (this trait have to stay useful)
• Superiority Complex: I don't feel this really powerful, but maybe we can go to: Critical Damage Increase: 10% Bonus Critical Damage Increase: 10%
• Revising Mirage Thrust range. Current range is 600. Could be 500 if you wan't to reduce the mobility. But definitely not less.
• Elusive Mind not sure about this. could be good, but on a lower CD. Exhaustion is exactly the opposite of mirage mechanic, might kill the spec altogether. Internal ICD?
• All the other nerfs proposed by Anet should go forward . Those are not significant, but still reducing the overall strength

My proposed changes are definitely not major, but a few of these combined would have a significant impact on the more gimmicky builds (full zerk + MA + SC), while still promoting the active and more skill-friendly builds of power mirage (for example PB-based builds).

Now, I don't think you should execute all of these changes AND the ones listed in the notes. If you do that, power mirage is probably be in a state where you can't kill anything with it. Disclaimer: power mirage was not suitable for top level pvp before the last major update. Consider this when you are choosing the nerfs. Feel free to cherry pick your choices.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

@Razor.6392 said:Don't forget the disorienting nature of mirage. Many spells break targeting and some others reposition yourself and your clones. Even with a build with lots of AoE, you cannot quickly identify which one is the real player.This is purely a learn to play issue since release. And no, target breaking is rare. And yes, you can very quickly identify the real mesmer.

[zealex.9410]

@musu.9205 said:

@BlackBeard.2873 said:I like what OriOri said quite a bit..

As far as EM goes, you could also consider a sharp dps reduction while evading. Something like...while under mirage cloak...you do -50% damage.

So...its not used in every meta build, but it is a GM trait at adept tier. I would suggest adding a debuff to shatterstorm, something like:

Mind Wrack is now an ammo skill. Mind Wrack does -25% damage (PvP only).

I would also add that phantasms should have their dps just toned down in pvp overall.

so what's the purpose of mirage cloak , and since mirror is still useless , ambush beside sword are still trash , what's the purpose of mirage special mechanic ? its not like mirage has DD level of dodge and endurance gain through skill / trait .mind wrack is not ammo skill , its only an ammo skill with shatterstorm , why you want to nerf it alone ?maybe 10% dmg nerf to shatter storm or 3s icd for between each mind wrack , power mesmer doesn't need heavy nerf .

phantasm damage is fine , power mesmer wasn't viable , one big reason is they didn't have enough sustain damage , after recentl patch , they finally got it .and if someone dies to izerker with cs and signet heal , that's a huge learn to play issue .I'm sorry a giant spinning phantasm moving towards you after 0.75s cast time with clear animation tell is supposed to do some meaningful damage . and the skill cd is 15s .and they are going to idisenchantist cd (to 25s ) what's more you want , funny how idisenchantist build would never be meta but hey hate are going to hate .

I dont think staff ambush is useless. But yeah, hurt the trait not the spec mechanic. The dodges are used ofensively here so dont criple the mirage's dmg when using their main mechanic. Instead change EM in all gamemodes exactly as ori suggested.

[Meteor.3720]

Reduce damage on Defender and Disenchanter

[Nero.7369]

First: Mesmer also has a lot of issues after the overhaul, I hope you will fix those as well, like with Tide of Times.

"Elusive Mind: This trait now applies 4 seconds of Exhaustion when breaking a stun." The idea seems to be fair and good, but i think 2-3 seconds on Exhaustion is already enough. Usually you tend into nerfing something completly to the ground, so start smaller the duration can still be increased later. Mirage is focused around the dodges and also heavily relies on vigor which would be useless as well then. Alternative idea would be to make a dodge requier 1,5 bars when we are stunned currently.

Shatter Storm 3sec cd between usages should be there as well.

Rework on Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration and Diversion in general:Shattering Clones turns them into shards that fly to the enemy shatter at their location dealing the current effect there. Turning into Shards takes 1/4 sec for Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration (not on Diversion) and Flying to the enemy on 1200 range takes another 1/4 sec. This skill would be still instant cast for the player, but the damage component would be delayed and visible to dodge. Also it would help against shatters not reaching the player cause of the slowAF clone movement even with superspeed.The effect could still occur at the players location like it is now, alternatively such a shard also flies from the players location.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@OriOri.8724 said:

I have a few thoughts on the listed mesmer changes, but to sum them up in one sentence - I think they are pretty bad. They don't address the burst issues mesmer has, they don't address the fact that we can have sustain in chrono and still pull off a deadly burst, but most importantly (to me) is the nerf to EM. I never agreed with the exhaustion mechanic back when it was placed on UC, but it especially doesn't make sense on EM. Mirage does not offer flat endurance regen, so exhaustion cuts out all of our endurance regen while we have it. But more than that, Mirage uses dodges offensively, whereas UC was a purely defensive skill. Not only do we not have the flat endurance regen to sort of offput the exhaustion in a limited scope, but we also lose out on a lot of potential offensive pressure, all while having 50 less endurance to start with than DD got. Simply put, the exhaustion has a significantly higher burden on Mirage than it does on DD.

Clearing the condition and breaking the stun are icing o the cake that is EM. The real issue is that you can do other actions while being invulnerable.

Adding a cool down to stun break wont fix the issue. A price has to be paid for the invulnerability while taking offensive actions, the exhaustion time is fair.

edit: isn't this dodge duration also .25s longer than other dodges?

I was mad as hell when they nerfed UC, thought it was the worst thing for DD

[thijsken.5031]

Portal has been in need of a nerf for years now. By far the most impactful skill in pvp, ports around your intire team ( mutiple times if wanted) across the map on a very low CD while not even being an elite skill.

[Durzlla.6295]

Whoops wrong thread

[Quadox.7834]

@"Cal Cohen.3527" said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Thanks for the post! I know you guys like lists, so, as an exclusively Mesmer player;

• I like the Mirage dodge stunbreak nerf. Perhaps the stunbreak should be removed altogether, but we'll see in the future.
• I realise the next step for you in balancing Mesmer will be to nerf power mesmer. Most probably via reducing shatter damage / prevalence, nerfing confounding suggestions trait (which should honestly be reworked/removed), or reducing the damage of weapon skills (most probably on greatsword in that case). I hope you will consider what such changes would do to core power shatter Mesmer first (such as Domination/Dueling/Illusion or Inspiration). Mesmer damage is not a big problem in and of itself. A better way to nerf mirage is the following, in my opinion;
  • Make Mirage more punishable. Dodging in stuns and immobilize and while channeling skills is obviously the main culprit. <-- This is most important.
  • Balance Mirage mobility. Jaunt+blink+portal+swordleap is too much. I suggest making portal an elite skill, so mirage gets to choose portal or Jaunt.Portal has been a "locked utility" for mesmer since release of the game. Without that change, Jaunt needs to be nerfed in PvP. Too many clones and mobility.
  • Balance stealth. One of if not the main complaint people have about power mesmer has always boiled down to getting extreme damage with no tell from stealth. Unless stealth is reworked entirely, one bandaid fix could be to reduce stealth duration of The Prestige (torch), Decoy, and possibly Signet of Midnight by one second each.
  • Balance illusion spam. Most of the current meta builds for power mesmer revolve around spamming some combination of the following; traited 2x berserkers, disenchanter, defender (incl trait), warlock, mage, swordsman. Even for an experienced Mesmer player the visual noise is immense when fighting such a build and it is almost impossible to keep track of everything (especially disenchanter which has an inconspicuous animation). Easiest fix is to increase cooldowns of the phantasm-summoning skills. You could also nerf disenchanter damage heavily, altough it would be better to redesign it as detailed below.
  • Increase phantasm usability and reliability. I realize this is not a possible skill split, but it does really need to happen. All/most phantasms should follow lead of the phantasmal berserker. There are three core issues even with the post-rework phantasms;
    1. Some take way too long to perform their attacks. It feels bad for the mesmer, because the clone summon takes way too long and the phantasm runs a high risk of dying before that happens. It also feels bad for the opponent, because you don't feel like you can outplay and dodge some phantasms like you can with others. The berserker and swordsman well designed in this regard, but Warlock, Warden and Duelist should be quicker and more burst-y (rather than a slow volley).
    2. Some phantasms regularly get stuck, in the terrain or otherwise, and never get to perform their attack especially if the opponent is moving. It becomes a game of hoping and excessively waiting for the phantasm to hit so you get a clone. Mage and Shield phantasms suffer from this problem.
    3. Some phantasms don't have clear enough animations. This is the case for Disenchanter and Shield phantasm.
       • Overall, Swordsman and Berserker are the best designed phantasms. Without the "phantasm gain quickness" trait Mesmer feels very clunky and annoying to pay at the moment.

Sorry for the long post!

[Quadox.7834]

@thijsken.5031 said:Portal has been in need of a nerf for years now. By far the most impactful skill in pvp, ports around your intire team ( mutiple times if wanted) across the map on a very low CD while not even being an elite skill.

It should be an elite to compete with Jaunt. What do you think about that?