Mesmer deceives its way past the PVP & WVW split

[OriOri.8724]

@OutOfOrder.3719 said:Thankfully with Elusive Mind, exhaustion only triggers when a stun break occurs.

Now if exhaustion always triggered after Elusive Mind, then this would be horrible and would kill the Mirage class. The Mirage class really relies on Elusive Mind for condition clear .

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It doesnt' rely on it. What EM does is allow us to not take other condi clears, which in turns allows the rest of the build to be more offensive.

[Solori.6025]

@Abelisk.4527 said:Chrono Bunker needs to be toned down.

I suggest nerfing the more defensive traits of Chaos specialization, such as stability/boons on shatter and protection on Staff.

Then what would you use chrono for?DPS is more in line with mirage.

I would actually think people would want less damage on Chrono and more of a support role for chrono

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:Although the complaints about Mirage Power are way over the top (lot of people simply don't understand how the mirage works and how to negate them, e.g. using the no-evade frames to burst them), I agree that Mirage needs some slight toning IF the other nerfs are bound to happen (e.g. holo, spellbreaker, etc.). I'm a power mirage since PoF release (and a very long time mesmer pvper), so I have some understanding about the issues.

My suggestions is to focus on the full burst builds, not the traditional GS skills of power mesmer:

• leave GS skills alone, maybe revise GS4 thrown damage, but that's it. if you touch anything else, power will become obsolote forever in pvp. If you actually reduce thrown damage of GS4, it should be around 10-15% decrease imo. Power mesmer has only been a problem since the last patch in PvP.
• Phantasmal Haste: it should still give Quickness to Phantasms, but the player should receive Quickness AFTER the phantasm transforms to a clone. This way you reduce the instant burst. This is a very important step to make imo.
• Imagined Burden: Reduces berserker phantasm damage by 30% instead of 25%. Or, change it to reduce the phantasm damage by 50% and bring back a small might on hit (like it used to be)
• Mental Anguish: Damage Increase: 10/15%, Damage Increase vs. Inactivity: 25% (this trait have to stay useful)
• Superiority Complex: I don't feel this really powerful, but maybe we can go to: Critical Damage Increase: 10% Bonus Critical Damage Increase: 10%
• Revising Mirage Thrust range. Current range is 600. Could be 500 if you wan't to reduce the mobility. But definitely not less.
• Elusive Mind not sure about this. could be good, but on a lower CD. Exhaustion is exactly the opposite of mirage mechanic, might kill the spec altogether. Internal ICD?
• All the other nerfs proposed by Anet should go forward . Those are not significant, but still reducing the overall strength

My proposed changes are definitely not major, but a few of these combined would have a significant impact on the more gimmicky builds (full zerk + MA + SC), while still promoting the active and more skill-friendly builds of power mirage (for example PB-based builds).

Now, I don't think you should execute all of these changes AND the ones listed in the notes. If you do that, power mirage is probably be in a state where you can't kill anything with it. Disclaimer: power mirage was not suitable for top level pvp before the last major update. Consider this when you are choosing the nerfs. Feel free to cherry pick your choices.

I agree with everything but Mirage thrust.Leave it as is.With the nerf to Elusive mind Mirage thrust is going to be heavily effected.

I don't think people realize how significant a nerf Exhaustion is to Elusive mind.

[apharma.3741]

I think removing the stunbreak aspect from elusive mind completely is a better way to go and change Elusive mind to be cleanse a condition when you gain mirage cloak. This makes the trait interact better with Desert Distortion too however exhaustion I said was a poor mechanic when applied to daredevil and I stand by that statement for mirage too.

Other changes I'd like to see:

Shaterstorm: This offers too much damage for a power build and completely eclipses the entirety of the domination trait line so I'd personally like to see it become Mind Wrack becomes ammo but does -25-35% damage.

Confounding Suggestions: Stun is a lot stronger than daze and letting a daze become a 1s stun on such a low cool down is far too good, I'd prefer to see it be +50% stun and daze duration.

Chronophantasma: in my opinion should make your phantasms do 20% less damage, I'm ok with them not taking a huge nerf to damage here because a resummoned phantasm is dazed for 1.5s giving a window of opportunity to kill them especially in an AoE heavy environment.

Mantra of Distraction: It's instant cast nature coupled with compounding suggestions is what most people have a problem with, I think removing the daze converting to a stun aspect will alleviate most complaints here however it might need a daze duration reduction to 0.5s.

[Abelisk.4527]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:Chrono Bunker needs to be toned down.

I suggest nerfing the more defensive traits of Chaos specialization, such as stability/boons on shatter and protection on Staff.

Then what would you use chrono for?DPS is more in line with mirage.

I would actually think people would want less damage on Chrono and more of a support role for chrono

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:Although the complaints about Mirage Power are way over the top (lot of people simply don't understand how the mirage works and how to negate them, e.g. using the no-evade frames to burst them),

I agree that Mirage needs some slight toning IF the other nerfs are bound to happen

(e.g. holo, spellbreaker, etc.). I'm a power mirage since PoF release (and a very long time mesmer pvper), so I have some understanding about the issues.

My suggestions is to focus on the full burst builds, not the traditional GS skills of power mesmer:

• leave GS skills alone, maybe revise GS4 thrown damage
  , but that's it. if you touch anything else, power will become obsolote forever in pvp. If you actually reduce thrown damage of GS4, it should be around 10-15% decrease imo. Power mesmer has only been a problem since the last patch in PvP.
• Phantasmal Haste
  : it should still give Quickness to Phantasms, but the player should receive Quickness AFTER the phantasm transforms to a clone. This way you reduce the instant burst. This is a very important step to make imo.
• Imagined Burden
  : Reduces berserker phantasm damage by 30% instead of 25%. Or, change it to reduce the phantasm damage by 50% and bring back a small might on hit (like it used to be)
• Mental Anguish
  : Damage Increase: 10/15%, Damage Increase vs. Inactivity: 25% (this trait have to stay useful)
• Superiority Complex
  : I don't feel this really powerful, but maybe we can go to: Critical Damage Increase: 10% Bonus Critical Damage Increase: 10%
• Revising Mirage Thrust range
  . Current range is 600. Could be 500 if you wan't to reduce the mobility. But definitely not less.
• Elusive Mind
  not sure about this. could be good, but on a lower CD. Exhaustion is exactly the opposite of mirage mechanic, might kill the spec altogether. Internal ICD?
• All the other nerfs proposed by Anet should go forward
  . Those are not significant, but still reducing the overall strength

My proposed changes are definitely not major, but a few of these combined would have a significant impact on the more gimmicky builds (full zerk + MA + SC), while still promoting the active and more skill-friendly builds of power mirage (for example PB-based builds).

Now, I don't think you should execute all of these changes AND the ones listed in the notes. If you do that, power mirage is probably be in a state where you can't kill anything with it

.

Disclaimer: power mirage was not suitable for top level pvp before the last major update.

Consider this when you are choosing the nerfs. Feel free to cherry pick your choices.

I agree with everything but Mirage thrust.Leave it as is.With the nerf to Elusive mind Mirage thrust is going to be heavily effected.

I don't think people realize how significant a nerf Exhaustion is to Elusive mind.

Bunker builds/tank is bad for PVP. It promotes boring playstyles for both teams

[Daishi.6027]

Elusive mind nerf is enough.

Yes a ton will switch to IH, and yes The clone spam provides some level of pressure.

With condi dead power IH isn’t much of a damage boost, and players just need to learn to dodge shatters. EM change takes away mirage’s ability to get away, making the glass cannon more glass. This isn’t a problem and makes conquest better all on its own.

Unlike Thief Mesmer does not have as many ways to regain endurance this is quite the cut to the hamstring.

If you intend to nerf the burst we’re only going to end up in a situation where sustain is king again, and a meta where no one dies is a lot worse than a meta where everyone dies.

To many people complain about the burst when they can’t anticipate and dodge, and the class is balanced around people who can dodge. Again Elusive mind change is enough, but if instant and nerfing requiring anticipation is coming then nerf stealth and give more target drops in it’s place.

FYI the only thing truly instant on mesmers are mantras, everything else other than shatters has a cast time, and shatters by contrast require resources to be effective and the damage source has enough of a travel time to play around.

[OriOri.8724]

@apharma.3741 said:I think removing the stunbreak aspect from elusive mind completely is a better way to go and change Elusive mind to be cleanse a condition when you gain mirage cloak. This makes the trait interact better with Desert Distortion too however exhaustion I said was a poor mechanic when applied to daredevil and I stand by that statement for mirage too.

Other changes I'd like to see:

Shaterstorm: This offers too much damage for a power build and completely eclipses the entirety of the domination trait line so I'd personally like to see it become Mind Wrack becomes ammo but does -25-35% damage.

Confounding Suggestions: Stun is a lot stronger than daze and letting a daze become a 1s stun on such a low cool down is far too good, I'd prefer to see it be +50% stun and daze duration.

Chronophantasma: in my opinion should make your phantasms do 20% less damage, I'm ok with them not taking a huge nerf to damage here because a resummoned phantasm is dazed for 1.5s giving a window of opportunity to kill them especially in an AoE heavy environment.

Mantra of Distraction: It's instant cast nature coupled with compounding suggestions is what most people have a problem with, I think removing the daze converting to a stun aspect will alleviate most complaints here however it might need a daze duration reduction to 0.5s.

Well put. I would also rather see the stunbreak removed entirely than have this exhaustion mechanic tacked on. Have to agree with confounding suggestions as well, it was designed back when the game was significantly less spammy overall, and it was well designed in that environment, but not anymore. I don't entirely agree with your proposed CP changes, I think leaving their damage the same is fine, precisely because its so easy to kill them before they can get that second attack off, but I do want to see the trait updated so that phantasms no longer turn into clones. Get an extra attack at the expense of not getting shatter fodder is a very fair tradeoff.

[Evolute.6239]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

• Balance stealth. One of if not the main complaint people have about power mesmer has always boiled down to getting extreme damage with no tell from stealth. Unless stealth is reworked entirely, one bandaid fix could be to reduce stealth duration of The Prestige (torch), Decoy, and possibly Signet of Midnight by one second each.

Sorry for the long post!

This one is important and an easy fix too I think. Stealth duration should be way lower. It should be a tool to change position or sneak or whatever, not as an offensive tool to make it so your sword burst (that happens to do 90% of your hp) is virtually unavoidable unless you twitchguess your dodge key or have an invuln.

[Quadox.7834]

@Vicko.1204 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Vicko.1204 said:Don't focus on mirage. The main problems come from phantasms and core mesmer traits,mainly from the recent rework. Chrono power is also super strong. By nerfing mirage even more you basicaly destroy it. Lots of people gave very good suggestios. Power mesmer indeed needs more nerfs. Mainly damage ones, shatter storm and a change to daze/mantra combo into stun. But not the mirage traitline.

Okay, show us how good base power Mesmer is. As compared to Mirage shatter or Chrono.

Like I said,chrono is also powerful.Along with mirage.That means,the things that make both specs strong are the new changes of core mesmer traits.Chrono and mirage just make these things shine even more.There were no phantasms criting for 10k before the rework.Chrono and mirage couldnt double mind wrack before the rework.Why nobody cared about power chrono and power mirage (aside from wvw roaming power mirage) but now they do?It's because of the recent rework.Come on now man.You act like I'm not asking for nerfs.I said power needs more nerfs and especially the new reworked traits.

You are correct that some things need to be nerfed on core mesmer, disenchanter for instance. However, Mirage (and to some extent chrono) are still by far the main problems rather than base Mesmer. Nobody plays core mesmer for a reason, it is not good.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

@Abelisk.4527 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:Chrono Bunker needs to be toned down.

I suggest nerfing the more defensive traits of Chaos specialization, such as stability/boons on shatter and protection on Staff.

Then what would you use chrono for?DPS is more in line with mirage.

I would actually think people would want less damage on Chrono and more of a support role for chrono

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:Although the complaints about Mirage Power are way over the top (lot of people simply don't understand how the mirage works and how to negate them, e.g. using the no-evade frames to burst them),

I agree that Mirage needs some slight toning IF the other nerfs are bound to happen

(e.g. holo, spellbreaker, etc.). I'm a power mirage since PoF release (and a very long time mesmer pvper), so I have some understanding about the issues.

My suggestions is to focus on the full burst builds, not the traditional GS skills of power mesmer:

• leave GS skills alone, maybe revise GS4 thrown damage
  , but that's it. if you touch anything else, power will become obsolote forever in pvp. If you actually reduce thrown damage of GS4, it should be around 10-15% decrease imo. Power mesmer has only been a problem since the last patch in PvP.
• Phantasmal Haste
  : it should still give Quickness to Phantasms, but the player should receive Quickness AFTER the phantasm transforms to a clone. This way you reduce the instant burst. This is a very important step to make imo.
• Imagined Burden
  : Reduces berserker phantasm damage by 30% instead of 25%. Or, change it to reduce the phantasm damage by 50% and bring back a small might on hit (like it used to be)
• Mental Anguish
  : Damage Increase: 10/15%, Damage Increase vs. Inactivity: 25% (this trait have to stay useful)
• Superiority Complex
  : I don't feel this really powerful, but maybe we can go to: Critical Damage Increase: 10% Bonus Critical Damage Increase: 10%
• Revising Mirage Thrust range
  . Current range is 600. Could be 500 if you wan't to reduce the mobility. But definitely not less.
• Elusive Mind
  not sure about this. could be good, but on a lower CD. Exhaustion is exactly the opposite of mirage mechanic, might kill the spec altogether. Internal ICD?
• All the other nerfs proposed by Anet should go forward
  . Those are not significant, but still reducing the overall strength

My proposed changes are definitely not major, but a few of these combined would have a significant impact on the more gimmicky builds (full zerk + MA + SC), while still promoting the active and more skill-friendly builds of power mirage (for example PB-based builds).

Now, I don't think you should execute all of these changes AND the ones listed in the notes. If you do that, power mirage is probably be in a state where you can't kill anything with it

.

Disclaimer: power mirage was not suitable for top level pvp before the last major update.

Consider this when you are choosing the nerfs. Feel free to cherry pick your choices.

I agree with everything but Mirage thrust.Leave it as is.With the nerf to Elusive mind Mirage thrust is going to be heavily effected.

I don't think people realize how significant a nerf Exhaustion is to Elusive mind.

Bunker builds/tank is bad for PVP. It promotes boring playstyles for both teams

Then why does everyone complain about burst or condi?

[OriOri.8724]

@Evolute.6239 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

• Balance stealth. One of if not the main complaint people have about power mesmer has always boiled down to getting extreme damage with no tell from stealth. Unless stealth is reworked entirely, one bandaid fix could be to reduce stealth duration of The Prestige (torch), Decoy, and possibly Signet of Midnight by one second each.

Sorry for the long post!

This one is important and an easy fix too I think. Stealth duration should be way lower. It should be a tool to change position or sneak or whatever, not as an offensive tool to make it so your sword burst (that happens to do 90% of your hp) is virtually unavoidable unless you twitchguess your dodge key or have an invuln.

Nerf PU to only increasing stealth by 33%, but the base durations on stealth are pretty much fine. Certainly 1s nerf to all 3 of those skills is ridiculous overkill, and you would be better off simply removing stealth from one of them entirely and leaving the other 2 alone

[Solori.6025]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Evolute.6239 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Cal Cohen.3527" said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

• Balance stealth. One of if not the main complaint people have about power mesmer has always boiled down to getting extreme damage with no tell from stealth. Unless stealth is reworked entirely, one bandaid fix could be to reduce stealth duration of The Prestige (torch), Decoy, and possibly Signet of Midnight by one second each.

Sorry for the long post!

This one is important and an easy fix too I think. Stealth duration should be way lower. It should be a tool to change position or sneak or whatever, not as an offensive tool to make it so your sword burst (that happens to do 90% of your hp) is virtually unavoidable unless you twitchguess your dodge key or have an invuln.

Nerf PU to only increasing stealth by 33%, but the base durations on stealth are pretty much fine. Certainly 1s nerf to all 3 of those skills is ridiculous overkill, and you would be better off simply removing stealth from one of them entirely and leaving the other 2 alone

Truth.

"some" People in this game though wont be satisfied until stealth is removed entirely

[Solori.6025]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Cal Cohen.3527" said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!

Thanks for the post! I know you guys like lists, so, as an exclusively Mesmer player;

• I like the Mirage dodge stunbreak nerf. Perhaps the stunbreak should be removed altogether, but we'll see in the future.
• I realise the next step for you in balancing Mesmer will be to nerf power mesmer. Most probably via reducing shatter damage / prevalence, nerfing confounding suggestions trait (which should honestly be reworked/removed), or reducing the damage of weapon skills (most probably on greatsword in that case). I hope you will consider what such changes would do to core power shatter Mesmer first (such as Domination/Dueling/Illusion or Inspiration). Mesmer damage is not a big problem in and of itself. A better way to nerf mirage is the following, in my opinion;
  • Make Mirage more punishable. Dodging in stuns and immobilize and while channeling skills is obviously the main culprit.
    <-- This is most important.

I believe this is already achieved through the addition of exhastion, as for skill use during dodge, that is a feature of the mirage itself. I would be all for removing it IF and only if they change the way a mesmer dodges while having the mirage traitline.

• Balance Mirage mobility. Jaunt+blink+portal+swordleap is too much. I suggest making portal an elite skill, so mirage gets to choose portal or Jaunt.

I don't think Mirage mobility is any better or worse than say warrior, thieves, or even engineers now. Given the fact that Jaunt is also used in combat to kite because of the lack of distance gained from dodging normally I don't see this as an issue.And if I'm not mistaken, portal is something that has been nerfed multiple times.Though I would love to see what would happen if Portal acted like the Scourge portal currently.I would be all for that change :tired_face:

• Balance illusion spam. Most of the current meta builds for power mesmer revolve around spamming some combination of the following; traited 2x berserkers, disenchanter, defender (incl trait), warlock, mage, swordsman. Even for an experienced Mesmer player the visual noise is immense when fighting such a build and it is almost impossible to keep track of everything (especially disenchanter which has an inconspicuous animation). Easiest fix is to increase cooldowns of the phantasm-summoning skills. You could also nerf disenchanter damage heavily, altough it would be better to redesign it as detailed below.

Illusions is a core mechanic for the class. As you are well aware the mesmer has limited viability if it cant consistently access it's core mechanic. AoE spam in this game already invalidates a lot of illusion generation, why make this any harder to play the class? That's like taking warrior adrenaline and making it only refillable every 30seconds ( hyperbole and never gonna happen but you get the idea)I would support an increase to phantasm CD if and only if they made the phantasm attacks reliably hit the target.That currently isn't possible without a complete rework of the AI and pathing issue.

* Increase phantasm usability and reliability. I realize this is not a possible skill split, but it does really need to happen. All/most phantasms should follow lead of the phantasmal berserker. There are three core issues even with the post-rework phantasms;    1.  Some take way too long to perform their attacks. It feels bad for the mesmer, because the clone summon takes way too long and the phantasm runs a high risk of dying before that happens. It also feels bad for the opponent, because you don't feel like you can outplay and dodge some phantasms like you can with others. The berserker and swordsman well designed in this regard, but Warlock, Warden and Duelist should be quicker and more burst-y (rather than a slow volley).    2. Some phantasms regularly get stuck, in the terrain or otherwise, and never get to perform their attack especially if the opponent is moving. It becomes a game of hoping and excessively waiting for the phantasm to hit so you get a clone. Mage and Shield phantasms suffer from this problem.    3. Some phantasms don't have clear enough animations. This is the case for Disenchanter and Shield phantasm.    * Overall, Swordsman and Berserker are the best designed phantasms. Without the "phantasm gain quickness" trait Mesmer feels very clunky and annoying to pay at the moment.

Oh you covered some of the issues with phantasm :D

[apharma.3741]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:I think removing the stunbreak aspect from elusive mind completely is a better way to go and change Elusive mind to be cleanse a condition when you gain mirage cloak. This makes the trait interact better with Desert Distortion too however exhaustion I said was a poor mechanic when applied to daredevil and I stand by that statement for mirage too.

Other changes I'd like to see:

Shaterstorm: This offers too much damage for a power build and completely eclipses the entirety of the domination trait line so I'd personally like to see it become Mind Wrack becomes ammo but does -25-35% damage.

Confounding Suggestions: Stun is a lot stronger than daze and letting a daze become a 1s stun on such a low cool down is far too good, I'd prefer to see it be +50% stun and daze duration.

Chronophantasma: in my opinion should make your phantasms do 20% less damage, I'm ok with them not taking a huge nerf to damage here because a resummoned phantasm is dazed for 1.5s giving a window of opportunity to kill them especially in an AoE heavy environment.

Mantra of Distraction: It's instant cast nature coupled with compounding suggestions is what most people have a problem with, I think removing the daze converting to a stun aspect will alleviate most complaints here however it might need a daze duration reduction to 0.5s.

Well put. I would also rather see the stunbreak removed entirely than have this exhaustion mechanic tacked on. Have to agree with confounding suggestions as well, it was designed back when the game was significantly less spammy overall, and it was well designed in that environment, but not anymore. I don't entirely agree with your proposed CP changes, I think leaving their damage the same is fine, precisely because its so easy to kill them before they can get that second attack off, but I do want to see the trait updated so that

phantasms no longer turn into clones. Get an extra attack at the expense of not getting shatter fodder is a very fair tradeoff

.

The problem with this is that it would mean if you took chronophantasma you could never use phantasmal force or persistence of memory as they work when phantasms become clones. Additionally chrono is one of the best lines for having shatter fodder as clones get superspeed, having barely anything to shatter would make the trait feel like it's placed awkwardly.

[Solori.6025]

@Cal Cohen.3527 said:The list in the main thread isn't final; one of the reasons we wanted to get it out way early is for you guys to give feedback. We agree that mirage could use more nerfs and it's something we will be looking at in the next few days. If you have any specific ideas (preferably splits) feel free to post them along with any reasoning and we'll take them into consideration.

Thanks!I also really hope you guys take some of these suggestions and test them. Before you end up over nerfing the class ( like you have a history of doing) and making builds useless in most game modes.

[eldenbri.1059]

I haven't been able to play much in competitive modes since the last patch (hand injury), but I'm sure that increased phantasms are causing more clutter.

I'm really hoping that chronophantasma plus phantasmal force doesn't get nerfed too much before I really get to try it. I played condi chrono since the release of HoT, and was enjoying trying out power again for a few days.

Maybe instead of nerfing the phantasms with chronophantasma, you add some effect to the mesmer to make the caster stand out more visually (like pulse of light around the mesmer whenever a phantasm summons the second instance).

Thanks for soliciting feedback :)

[Abelisk.4527]

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:Chrono Bunker needs to be toned down.

I suggest nerfing the more defensive traits of Chaos specialization, such as stability/boons on shatter and protection on Staff.

Then what would you use chrono for?DPS is more in line with mirage.

I would actually think people would want less damage on Chrono and more of a support role for chrono

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:Although the complaints about Mirage Power are way over the top (lot of people simply don't understand how the mirage works and how to negate them, e.g. using the no-evade frames to burst them),

I agree that Mirage needs some slight toning IF the other nerfs are bound to happen

(e.g. holo, spellbreaker, etc.). I'm a power mirage since PoF release (and a very long time mesmer pvper), so I have some understanding about the issues.

My suggestions is to focus on the full burst builds, not the traditional GS skills of power mesmer:

• leave GS skills alone, maybe revise GS4 thrown damage
  , but that's it. if you touch anything else, power will become obsolote forever in pvp. If you actually reduce thrown damage of GS4, it should be around 10-15% decrease imo. Power mesmer has only been a problem since the last patch in PvP.
• Phantasmal Haste
  : it should still give Quickness to Phantasms, but the player should receive Quickness AFTER the phantasm transforms to a clone. This way you reduce the instant burst. This is a very important step to make imo.
• Imagined Burden
  : Reduces berserker phantasm damage by 30% instead of 25%. Or, change it to reduce the phantasm damage by 50% and bring back a small might on hit (like it used to be)
• Mental Anguish
  : Damage Increase: 10/15%, Damage Increase vs. Inactivity: 25% (this trait have to stay useful)
• Superiority Complex
  : I don't feel this really powerful, but maybe we can go to: Critical Damage Increase: 10% Bonus Critical Damage Increase: 10%
• Revising Mirage Thrust range
  . Current range is 600. Could be 500 if you wan't to reduce the mobility. But definitely not less.
• Elusive Mind
  not sure about this. could be good, but on a lower CD. Exhaustion is exactly the opposite of mirage mechanic, might kill the spec altogether. Internal ICD?
• All the other nerfs proposed by Anet should go forward
  . Those are not significant, but still reducing the overall strength

My proposed changes are definitely not major, but a few of these combined would have a significant impact on the more gimmicky builds (full zerk + MA + SC), while still promoting the active and more skill-friendly builds of power mirage (for example PB-based builds).

Now, I don't think you should execute all of these changes AND the ones listed in the notes. If you do that, power mirage is probably be in a state where you can't kill anything with it

.

Disclaimer: power mirage was not suitable for top level pvp before the last major update.

Consider this when you are choosing the nerfs. Feel free to cherry pick your choices.

I agree with everything but Mirage thrust.Leave it as is.With the nerf to Elusive mind Mirage thrust is going to be heavily effected.

I don't think people realize how significant a nerf Exhaustion is to Elusive mind.

Bunker builds/tank is bad for PVP. It promotes boring playstyles for both teams

Then why does everyone complain about burst or condi?

Burst is a different story. That 100% needs to go too.

And uhh, condi? After the balance patch conditions will be fairly weak I feel.

[OriOri.8724]

@apharma.3741 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@apharma.3741 said:I think removing the stunbreak aspect from elusive mind completely is a better way to go and change Elusive mind to be cleanse a condition when you gain mirage cloak. This makes the trait interact better with Desert Distortion too however exhaustion I said was a poor mechanic when applied to daredevil and I stand by that statement for mirage too.

Other changes I'd like to see:

Shaterstorm: This offers too much damage for a power build and completely eclipses the entirety of the domination trait line so I'd personally like to see it become Mind Wrack becomes ammo but does -25-35% damage.

Confounding Suggestions: Stun is a lot stronger than daze and letting a daze become a 1s stun on such a low cool down is far too good, I'd prefer to see it be +50% stun and daze duration.

Chronophantasma: in my opinion should make your phantasms do 20% less damage, I'm ok with them not taking a huge nerf to damage here because a resummoned phantasm is dazed for 1.5s giving a window of opportunity to kill them especially in an AoE heavy environment.

Mantra of Distraction: It's instant cast nature coupled with compounding suggestions is what most people have a problem with, I think removing the daze converting to a stun aspect will alleviate most complaints here however it might need a daze duration reduction to 0.5s.

Well put. I would also rather see the stunbreak removed entirely than have this exhaustion mechanic tacked on. Have to agree with confounding suggestions as well, it was designed back when the game was significantly less spammy overall, and it was well designed in that environment, but not anymore. I don't entirely agree with your proposed CP changes, I think leaving their damage the same is fine, precisely because its so easy to kill them before they can get that second attack off, but I do want to see the trait updated so that

phantasms no longer turn into clones. Get an extra attack at the expense of not getting shatter fodder is a very fair tradeoff

.

The problem with this is that it would mean if you took chronophantasma you could never use phantasmal force or persistence of memory as they work when phantasms become clones. Additionally chrono is one of the best lines for having shatter fodder as clones get superspeed, having barely anything to shatter would make the trait feel like it's placed awkwardly.

I have to disagree with your premise that this would be a bad thing for the chronomancer line. If you are going for a shatter spam build, seize the moment is stronger than chronophantasma, due to the quickness, and core mesmer has plenty of ways to generate clones quickly without phantasm skills. Chronophantasma should be a part of builds that seek to improve their phantasm skills, by essentially doubling their effectiveness, but it should to come with a downside. If you want PoM and PF in your build, then you simply woudln't run CP, and vice versa. I honestly don't see it as a problem, all I see is that it tones down some of the extremes that are happening right now with some mesmer builds, without nerfing core mesmer, and without directly nerfing our ability to generate clones.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

Fun part is that actual mesmers don't know even what is good or bad build right now and people race with nerf ideas. How about you guys w8 for today's AT monthly to have reason to really complain about. For now people are 100% clueless.

[Brujeria.7536]

Portal needs a hefty nerf in its cooldown in PvP and WvW. This utility skill is has far more impact than most elite skills in terms of gameplay and it can be doubled.

[dragonkain.3984]

Remove perma-reflect on dodge talent for dueling trait line, it makes mesmer an immortal god-mode vs any ranged projectile build or class.

Remove mobility on sword ambush for mirage, which is allowing this class to be faster than thieves, making mesmers a class jack-of-all trades-master-of-all.

Remove ability to physically burst from stealth from 100-0 any class, even warriors. All done with mesmers greatsword. Good idea would be adding some specific sound tell for when sword 2 or 4 are start being casted, which is played even when mesmer is stealthed.

Remove all possibility for vigor applications for mirage, a class that can keep spamming immortality while other classes can not is not healthy for any game, limit mirages dodges only to two per 20 seconds(just like normal dodge cooldown), no way to improve that.2 dodges are enough and should not be increasable in any way if you want to keep it in such overpowered state.

Another solution could be making it less overpowered and removing ability to dodge while stunned/immobilized, making dodge work just like for any other class.

Remove ability to escape combat with portal, just like you did with thiefs shadow trap, Make mesmers second portal use have a long cast-time to prevent that.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

I seriously don't know what people's problem with mirage is right now. The burst builds run VERY glass and are not that hard to kill. The problem honestly isn't the class, it's knowing how to play around it's invulns. People complain about warriors being impossible to kill, but those are the same people that burst it while it is invuln, and think it's unkillable. It only takes a single mistake to kill a mirage in 1 shot. If it's too much for you, then remove thief from the game. They nerfed fresh air ele, then added a one shot ranged thief elite spec. Let's just kill all deadeye damage as well because players won't actually focus them and just make them useless too while we are at it. The damage isn't the problem (baring chronophantasia), but even with that, they lose a ton of survivability as well. Stop attacking them when they block or evade. Then burst. Lack of skill is what makes other classes seem overpowered. The more you spec into damage, the easier you are to kill. That's the tradeoff. If you think it's overpowered, play the class. It's a lot harder to stay alive than you might think, and if it's not, you have a terrible opponent. Thieves still can kill a mirage, scourge can, warrior can. Hell, about any class can, but it's an actual fight if both sides are actually on the same skill level. Hell, I'd say that against many classes, you have to try HARDER on a mirage than they do as your defence is a few short evades (all classes have them) and short stealth. Thieves have as much, if not more mobility, and more stealth. Why would you possibly say the mirage is overpowered. The stunbreak on dodge is the only thing that's keeping us from being destroyed by a holo as well, and that's still a hard fight.

[apharma.3741]

@dragonkain.3984 said:Remove perma-reflect on dodge talent for dueling trait line, it makes mesmer an immortal god-mode vs any ranged projectile build or class.You only gain the mirror if you dodge an attack. It's not always good for you either as you'll reflect if you're stealthed = revealed.

@dragonkain.3984 said:Remove mobility on sword ambush for mirage, which is allowing this class to be faster than thieves, making mesmers a class jack-of-all trades-master-of-all.Removing the leap would make mirage kinda bad but you could make it a targeted leap, can't use it for escape but can use it for chase, sound fair?

@dragonkain.3984 said:Remove ability to physically burst from stealth from 100-0 any class, even warriors. All done with mesmers greatsword. Good idea would be adding some specific sound tell for when sword 2 or 4 are start being casted, which is played even when mesmer is stealthed.If they remove or rather downgrade the burst you better do something about the damage modifiers, check out the mesmer traits and you'll see there's not many that are a direct damage mod for the mesmer. You have mods for clones, mods for shatters but only really 2 for the mesmer themselves. Making phantasms benefit from mesmer damage mods, might etc would allow you to tone down mind wrack while shifting the damage onto more sustained attacks.

@dragonkain.3984 said:Remove all possibility for vigor applications for mirage, a class that can keep spamming immortality while other classes can not is not healthy for any game, limit mirages dodges only to two per 20 seconds(just like normal dodge cooldown), no way to improve that.2 dodges are enough and should not be increasable in any way if you want to keep it in such overpowered state.Sure, remove vigor on all other classes while you're at it. Vigor was nerfed a long time ago so it only gives 50% endurance regen (~7.5s for 1 dodge), where the real regen comes from is energy sigils and adventurer runes, the latter has a 10s ICD on endurance regen so you can slot mirror as a heal and know you'll get a dodge back every time.

@dragonkain.3984 said:Another solution could be making it less overpowered and removing ability to dodge while stunned/immobilized, making dodge work just like for any other class.Kinda pointless as most mesmers use elusive mind so they've been breaking/removing that already, they can also port 400 distance away at will so rather pointless.

@dragonkain.3984 said:Remove ability to escape combat with portal, just like you did with thiefs shadow trap, Make mesmers second portal use have a long cast-time to prevent that.Ah so I'm guessing thief main? You know shadow trap has a way longer range than portal right? It's got such a long range that you can actually hit a loading screen when you use it. Portal already makes you wait 1s before using it, adding a cast wouldn't do anything to mirage but would be a nerf to core and chrono so this makes little to no sense.

[dragonkain.3984]

@apharma.3741 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove perma-reflect on dodge talent for dueling trait line, it makes mesmer an immortal god-mode vs any ranged projectile build or class.

You only gain the mirror if you dodge an attack. It's not always good for you either as you'll reflect if you're stealthed = revealed.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove mobility on sword ambush for mirage, which is allowing this class to be faster than thieves, making mesmers a class jack-of-all trades-master-of-all.

Removing the leap would make mirage kinda bad but you could make it a targeted leap, can't use it for escape but can use it for chase, sound fair?

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove ability to physically burst from stealth from 100-0 any class, even warriors. All done with mesmers greatsword. Good idea would be adding some specific sound tell for when sword 2 or 4 are start being casted, which is played even when mesmer is stealthed.

If they remove or rather downgrade the burst you better do something about the damage modifiers, check out the mesmer traits and you'll see there's not many that are a direct damage mod for the mesmer. You have mods for clones, mods for shatters but only really 2 for the mesmer themselves. Making phantasms benefit from mesmer damage mods, might etc would allow you to tone down mind wrack while shifting the damage onto more sustained attacks.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove all possibility for vigor applications for mirage, a class that can keep spamming immortality while other classes can not is not healthy for any game, limit mirages dodges only to two per 20 seconds(just like normal dodge cooldown), no way to improve that.2 dodges are enough and should not be increasable in any way if you want to keep it in such overpowered state.

Sure, remove vigor on all other classes while you're at it. Vigor was nerfed a long time ago so it only gives 50% endurance regen (~7.5s for 1 dodge), where the real regen comes from is energy sigils and adventurer runes, the latter has a 10s ICD on endurance regen so you can slot mirror as a heal and know you'll get a dodge back every time.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Another solution could be making it less overpowered and removing ability to dodge while stunned/immobilized, making dodge work just like for any other class.

Kinda pointless as most mesmers use elusive mind so they've been breaking/removing that already, they can also port 400 distance away at will so rather pointless.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove ability to escape combat with portal, just like you did with thiefs shadow trap, Make mesmers second portal use have a long cast-time to prevent that.

Ah so I'm guessing thief main? You know shadow trap has a way longer range than portal right? It's got such a long range that you can actually hit a loading screen when you use it. Portal already makes you wait 1s before using it, adding a cast wouldn't do anything to mirage but would be a nerf to core and chrono so this makes little to no sense.

1.Its not hard to get that perma-reflect at all in majority of situations. Nobody cares much about reflects in duels, reflects are broken in teamfights cos they virtually negate any ranged dps on a person. And overall reflects in this game need major nerfs. They are too spammable + have crazy durations for this virtual immortality vs majority of ranged builds.2.Ok, that sounds better, escaping and moving around the map with it is what is broken.3.Damage is fine, the problem is that they can do 100 to 0 burst from stealth, if it was dodgeble with audible tell there would be no such thing. +that tell would be played even when mesmer is not in stealth, reducing their DPS vs players thanks to them all getting an instinctual dodge response to those 2 attacks. They must make those 2 attacks impossible to be cancelled however to prevent mesmers spamming cancel of those themselves to force people to dodge.4 and 5. The dodge they have is broken, not only it allows you to act normally while its happening, it also has extra duration, got broken trait, usable while stunned/immobilized. Any nerf would be welcome to that, doesnt matter which one rly.6.They can use that 1 sec portal summon thing while being stunned/immobilized/blocking themselves, pretty much having no cast time at all. Thats why it needs CAST TIME, which is interruptable and cant be used while disabled to prevent this god-mode escape.

[Felipe.1807]

@Tigaseye.2047 said:Why do so few people play it, in WvW, then?

I do play it and find it's good in some ways, but pretty bad in others.

Survivability under heavy AOE is hard work, to say the least, for example.

I constantly have to hold back, until my shield is up and even then, it's jump in really carefully and then dodge back, again.

Mostly it's tentative support, with the only real advantage being you can hopefully escape, when it all goes wrong and there's a wipe.

I assume that is why most people don't play it in WvW, despite saying it's OP?

You talking about zerg fights? Cause Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage are pretty popular on roaming...I hope that all changes that are made to Mesmer and its specs affect WvW too, cause there is where he achieve its true potential...damage is ridiculous and any concept of risk/reward is completely destroyed thanks to high mobility, teleports and evade frames.

[thatdarnkatz.7168]

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove perma-reflect on dodge talent for dueling trait line, it makes mesmer an immortal god-mode vs any ranged projectile build or class.

You only gain the mirror if you dodge an attack. It's not always good for you either as you'll reflect if you're stealthed = revealed.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove mobility on sword ambush for mirage, which is allowing this class to be faster than thieves, making mesmers a class jack-of-all trades-master-of-all.

Removing the leap would make mirage kinda bad but you could make it a targeted leap, can't use it for escape but can use it for chase, sound fair?

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove ability to physically burst from stealth from 100-0 any class, even warriors. All done with mesmers greatsword. Good idea would be adding some specific sound tell for when sword 2 or 4 are start being casted, which is played even when mesmer is stealthed.

If they remove or rather downgrade the burst you better do something about the damage modifiers, check out the mesmer traits and you'll see there's not many that are a direct damage mod for the mesmer. You have mods for clones, mods for shatters but only really 2 for the mesmer themselves. Making phantasms benefit from mesmer damage mods, might etc would allow you to tone down mind wrack while shifting the damage onto more sustained attacks.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove all possibility for vigor applications for mirage, a class that can keep spamming immortality while other classes can not is not healthy for any game, limit mirages dodges only to two per 20 seconds(just like normal dodge cooldown), no way to improve that.2 dodges are enough and should not be increasable in any way if you want to keep it in such overpowered state.

Sure, remove vigor on all other classes while you're at it. Vigor was nerfed a long time ago so it only gives 50% endurance regen (~7.5s for 1 dodge), where the real regen comes from is energy sigils and adventurer runes, the latter has a 10s ICD on endurance regen so you can slot mirror as a heal and know you'll get a dodge back every time.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Another solution could be making it less overpowered and removing ability to dodge while stunned/immobilized, making dodge work just like for any other class.

Kinda pointless as most mesmers use elusive mind so they've been breaking/removing that already, they can also port 400 distance away at will so rather pointless.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Remove ability to escape combat with portal, just like you did with thiefs shadow trap, Make mesmers second portal use have a long cast-time to prevent that.

Ah so I'm guessing thief main? You know shadow trap has a way longer range than portal right? It's got such a long range that you can actually hit a loading screen when you use it. Portal already makes you wait 1s before using it, adding a cast wouldn't do anything to mirage but would be a nerf to core and chrono so this makes little to no sense.

1.Its not hard to get that perma-reflect at all in majority of situations. Nobody cares much about reflects in duels, reflects are broken in teamfights cos they virtually negate any ranged dps on a person. And overall reflects in this game need major nerfs. They are too spammable + have crazy durations for this virtual immortality vs majority of ranged builds.2.Ok, that sounds better, escaping and moving around the map with it is what is broken.3.Damage is fine, the problem is that they can do 100 to 0 burst from stealth, if it was dodgeble with audible tell there would be no such thing. +that tell would be played even when mesmer is not in stealth, reducing their DPS vs players thanks to them all getting an instinctual dodge response to those 2 attacks. They must make those 2 attacks impossible to be cancelled however to prevent mesmers spamming cancel of those themselves to force people to dodge.4 and 5. The dodge they have is broken, not only it allows you to act normally while its happening, it also has extra duration, got broken trait, usable while stunned/immobilized. Any nerf would be welcome to that, doesnt matter which one rly.6.They can use that 1 sec portal summon thing while being stunned/immobilized/blocking themselves, pretty much having no cast time at all. Thats why it needs CAST TIME, which is interruptable and cant be used while disabled to prevent this god-mode escape.

1, Perma reflect? Let me tell you it most definitely does not. I get railed by rangers in PvP and WvW all of the time.

2. You are too late to complain about mesmer escape. I mean, with a minute and a half cooldown on portal, they must be spamming it. We've been using it since core game with stealth. Nothing new, nor broken here. Thief can easily espace much more easily.
3. Yeah, this game would be much easier if you could dodge a massive burst. We need to make sure thief can't backstab anymore either. I hate getting one shot by that. I mean, let's just remove stealth.
4. Extra duration and broken trait? Uh, no on the duration, and blowing a dodge to remove conditions has us pretty screwed when we are fighting anything condi. Without that, we stand literally no chance. Don't like stun breaks, then let's remove them all. Full counter is one of the many CC's out there that are too strong without stunbreaks. What others do we have? I mean, teleports, portals and whatnot, but you want those nerfed as well. And those are a "stunbreak" as it says on the skill, but you stay stunned, so nope on those.
5. Back to the comment about a 90s cooldown. That's the balance here. Let's just call mesmer broken because it can use a portal at all that it's been using for years and never called broken for by actually decent players before.

And to those that claim that sword mobility is broken, I can't keep up with a shortbow thief, so if we nerf sword, lets nerf that too. They have literally as much spike potential as mesmers, more stealth, and more mobility, but lets complain about mesmers. Mirage gets unvuln frames where thief gets more stealth access, and teleports. I am not finding how this is more broken than thief in PvP unless you want to complain about core mesmer things that have been in the game, and working well, especially in high level PvP since core. Does anyone that actually posts here actually PLAY mesmer?