Random instabilities

[TPMN.1483]

Social Awk - was removed from this fotm by ANET as it didn't allow players to combat mechanics effectively for 99 CM/ 100 CM.I find it ironic that they add it back in, when it just terrible mechanics and was removed as it did not allow effective game play at all.

[Vagrant.7206]

@TPMN.1483 said:Social Awk - was removed from this fotm by ANET as it didn't allow players to combat mechanics effectively for 99 CM/ 100 CM.I find it ironic that they add it back in, when it just terrible mechanics and was removed as it did not allow effective game play at all.

The ultimate irony is that social awkwardness was introduced to prevent groups from stacking around corners and pulling adds for quick elimination (early fractals were notoriously easy to pull and stack adds around corners). They've effectively designed arenas where this isn't possible to do any more, but social awkwardness still exists in these arenas.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Remove instabilities altogether. Make changes to bosses offering new, unique mechanics each tier or level.

Problem is, the mechanics will be the same every time, which is what the change is addressing. Also, making bosses with actual mechanics make people complain they're hard.

Raids are scripted repeatable content aswell. See no problem with this. As I said, I like my game to be consistent. Instabilities are just cheap gimmicks.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Remove instabilities altogether. Make changes to bosses offering new, unique mechanics each tier or level.

Problem is, the mechanics will be the same every time, which is what the change is addressing. Also, making bosses with actual mechanics make people complain they're hard.

Raids are scripted repeatable content aswell. See no problem with this. As I said, I like my game to be consistent. Instabilities are just cheap gimmicks.

Raids aren't supposed to be played daily though, while fractals are. That's a big difference in how repetitive you perceive the content. Instabilities are a cheap way to provide some variance indeed, but I'm OK with them. They fit the idea of the Fractals and the Mists. Well, I probably am personally biased as well. I like using random effects in mechanics I design.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Remove instabilities altogether. Make changes to bosses offering new, unique mechanics each tier or level.

Problem is, the mechanics will be the same every time, which is what the change is addressing. Also, making bosses with actual mechanics make people complain they're hard.

Raids are scripted repeatable content aswell. See no problem with this. As I said, I like my game to be consistent. Instabilities are just cheap gimmicks.

Raids aren't supposed to be played daily though, while fractals are. That's a big difference in how repetitive you perceive the content. Instabilities are a cheap way to provide some variance indeed, but I'm OK with them. They fit the idea of the Fractals and the Mists. Well, I probably am personally biased as well. I like using random effects in mechanics I design.

I don't share the sentiment.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Remove instabilities altogether. Make changes to bosses offering new, unique mechanics each tier or level.

Problem is, the mechanics will be the same every time, which is what the change is addressing. Also, making bosses with actual mechanics make people complain they're hard.

Raids are scripted repeatable content aswell. See no problem with this. As I said, I like my game to be consistent. Instabilities are just cheap gimmicks.

Raids aren't supposed to be played daily though, while fractals are. That's a big difference in how repetitive you perceive the content. Instabilities are a cheap way to provide some variance indeed, but I'm OK with them. They fit the idea of the Fractals and the Mists. Well, I probably am personally biased as well. I like using random effects in mechanics I design.

I don't share the sentiment.

You don 't have to. It's a matter of personal preference, but both are valid approaches.

[zealex.9410]

Dont wonna bitch about it but why not just remove last laugh from the cms? Like reworking it (which imo was enough and a good change) and then making it so adds cant proc last laugh surely would take more effort than just blacklisting it...

[Jora.5471]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:If certain combos prove to be consistently bad, I can see about adding a mutual exclusion list, so that for instance last laugh can never happen with toxic trails. However, I'd rather try rebalancing the instabilities instead. last laugh and toxic trails could use tweaks I think.

• Toxic Trail + Afflicted
• Last Laugh + Social Awkwardness
• Toxic Trail + Social Awkwardness
• Hamstrung + Last Laugh
• Hamstrung + Flux Bomb

[zealex.9410]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:If certain combos prove to be consistently bad, I can see about adding a mutual exclusion list, so that for instance last laugh can never happen with toxic trails. However, I'd rather try rebalancing the instabilities instead. last laugh and toxic trails could use tweaks I think.

• Toxic Trail + Afflicted
• Last Laugh + Social Awkwardness
• Toxic Trail + Social Awkwardness
• Hamstrung + Last Laugh
• Hamstrung + Flux Bomb

All of them managable.

[Jora.5471]

@zealex.9410 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:If certain combos prove to be consistently bad, I can see about adding a mutual exclusion list, so that for instance last laugh can never happen with toxic trails. However, I'd rather try rebalancing the instabilities instead. last laugh and toxic trails could use tweaks I think.

• Toxic Trail + Afflicted
• Last Laugh + Social Awkwardness
• Toxic Trail + Social Awkwardness
• Hamstrung + Last Laugh
• Hamstrung + Flux Bomb

All of them managable.

So is Last laugh with toxic trail. He is asking for unfun combination.

[zealex.9410]

@runeblade.7514 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:If certain combos prove to be consistently bad, I can see about adding a mutual exclusion list, so that for instance last laugh can never happen with toxic trails. However, I'd rather try rebalancing the instabilities instead. last laugh and toxic trails could use tweaks I think.

• Toxic Trail + Afflicted
• Last Laugh + Social Awkwardness
• Toxic Trail + Social Awkwardness
• Hamstrung + Last Laugh
• Hamstrung + Flux Bomb

All of them managable.

So is Last laugh with toxic trail. He is asking for unfun combination.

I dont see anything unfun about that combination. Group the mobs, cleave, dodge once or like twice at most, done.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

[Trae.2384]

@"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Thanks for actually listening to our gripes and attempting to fix clear mistakes that really screw up our experience in fractals. I will admit I way overthought these before actually playing them when I heard about this initially coming out, dreading even trying cm's but it was much more manageable than I thought it would be and never was there a day where I started a fractal that I couldnt finish because of some of the more "nasty" combos no one was used to. With that said there have been many OH SHEIIT!!!! moments, LL at 99cm 15% phase, LL at 87 "necro" phase, LL on cliffside hammer segments flying off cliffs for lulz, toxic trail on volcanic with the immob add phase, hamstrung on no healer swamplands, are a few off the top I can remember. Very few of those caused full resets and even though extremely annoying, not fun in any stretch of the imagination, not really game breaking. Im sure today's tune as well as any in the future will make them even more manageable and we will all eventually forget they were ever static to level.

[Eramonster.2718]

Aside from Social Awkwardness, everything else can be ignored, otherwise manageable :)

[Endelon.1042]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Shouldn't these more difficult instability combinations also be rewarding more for the increased effort/difficulty? Right now you get the same stuff for an easy roll of instabilities as you do the current combinations that everyone is complaining about.

[Feanor.2358]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Both can be a problem whenever there are a lot of AOEs (99/100 come to mind). Additionally, forced movement in places where the game requires us to do the opposite (buttons room in the Underground Facility feels especially bad).Also there's something strange about Last Laugh in particular. Since the randomization changes I get the feeling LL suddenly became almost mandatory almost everywhere. Like, I don't mind playing with that instability, but can we sometimes play without it?

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

@Endelon.1042 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Shouldn't these more difficult instability combinations also be rewarding more for the increased effort/difficulty? Right now you get the same stuff for an easy roll of instabilities as you do the current combinations that everyone is complaining about.

Quantifying that in a meaningful way just doesn't seem feasible. A hard combination in one fractal can be an easy one in another.

[Bugabuga.9721]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Endelon.1042 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Shouldn't these more difficult instability combinations also be rewarding more for the increased effort/difficulty? Right now you get the same stuff for an easy roll of instabilities as you do the current combinations that everyone is complaining about.

Quantifying that in a meaningful way just doesn't seem feasible. A hard combination in one fractal can be an easy one in another.

Why not add instability specific rewards? :) runs with toxic trail would drop toxic bauble, last laugh -- explosive bauble and so forth. And then exchange N baubles at BUY golem for something shiny? (A mini krait for toxic, mini layline for flux bauble etc)Then instability would be a somewhat net positive instead of just degrading fractal runs :)

[OriOri.8724]

@Bugabuga.9721 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Endelon.1042 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Shouldn't these more difficult instability combinations also be rewarding more for the increased effort/difficulty? Right now you get the same stuff for an easy roll of instabilities as you do the current combinations that everyone is complaining about.

Quantifying that in a meaningful way just doesn't seem feasible. A hard combination in one fractal can be an easy one in another.

Why not add instability specific rewards? :) runs with toxic trail would drop toxic bauble, last laugh -- explosive bauble and so forth. And then exchange N baubles at BUY golem for something shiny? (A mini krait for toxic, mini layline for flux bauble etc)Then instability would be a somewhat net positive instead of just degrading fractal runs :)

I think you misunderstand the point of instabilities honestly. They aren't there to "degrade" fractals, but to change them, so that it isn't the same thing every single time. It prevents tedium from taking over daily fractals (though everyone is, of course, allowed to have their own opinions of how well they do this. Personally I think that the new system is pretty great at achieving this).

[Bugabuga.9721]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Bugabuga.9721 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Endelon.1042 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Shouldn't these more difficult instability combinations also be rewarding more for the increased effort/difficulty? Right now you get the same stuff for an easy roll of instabilities as you do the current combinations that everyone is complaining about.

Quantifying that in a meaningful way just doesn't seem feasible. A hard combination in one fractal can be an easy one in another.

Why not add instability specific rewards? :) runs with toxic trail would drop toxic bauble, last laugh -- explosive bauble and so forth. And then exchange N baubles at BUY golem for something shiny? (A mini krait for toxic, mini layline for flux bauble etc)Then instability would be a somewhat net positive instead of just degrading fractal runs :)

I think you misunderstand the point of instabilities honestly. They aren't there to "degrade" fractals, but to change them, so that it isn't the same thing every single time. It prevents tedium from taking over daily fractals (though everyone is, of course, allowed to have their own opinions of how well they do this. Personally I think that the new system is pretty great at achieving this).

Honestly? I'm pretty sure that a big slice of players would rather not have additional random (however small) difficulty increase in the name of "not being the same thing" and having to learn how to clear same fractal but with bonus punishing mechanics of the day/week.

Otherwise we'd have "random mote" and those people who are bored would use it while leaving other pug groups alone ;) (or "vanilla mote" to turn current random combination off) having everyone else suffer in the name of "this is too boring and not challenging enough for me" is rather unfair. So let's not pretend that majority magically decided to make life more difficult or that instabilities are anything other than an annoyance and a bump up in difficulty.

And as we're not getting rid of them, questions are about howto make it less bad/ unfair/ extra punishing in particular cases. And adding an extra little something would sweeten otherwise bitter for pugs pill, stuffed down their throats :)

[Endelon.1042]

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Endelon.1042 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Shouldn't these more difficult instability combinations also be rewarding more for the increased effort/difficulty? Right now you get the same stuff for an easy roll of instabilities as you do the current combinations that everyone is complaining about.

Quantifying that in a meaningful way just doesn't seem feasible. A hard combination in one fractal can be an easy one in another.

But it's silly that this week's Nightmare fractal is going to be a.....nightmare.....requiring a lot more effort while still giving the same "meh" loot. The new random instabilities are increasing the difficulty of certain fractals depending on the combination that you wind up with. If players are going to be stuck for a whole week with a really crappy combination of instabilities that dramatically increase the difficulty then there should be something extra like a second integrated matrix or bonus gold or whatever. So far the random fractal instabilities have been more frustrating/annoying rather than "oh wow cool, the fractal is totally different now. this will be a fun challenge".

Edit: Maybe change the way the randoms work for the CM fractals? Cause I guess when I say "players are stuck for a whole week" I'm referring to the CM fractals since obviously the t4 fractals change each day. Also, I think that part of why a lot of players are unhappy with the random instabilities is that fractals have, for years now, been a pretty routine daily activity to do for gold/loot. Now it seems like fractals are being updated and messed with pretty much every update and is becoming way more developed as its own gamemode (which, imo, is good) but I think that's creating a disruption for a lot of players for whom fractals has really just been a (fairly easy) daily routine for so long.

[OriOri.8724]

@Bugabuga.9721 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Bugabuga.9721 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:

@Endelon.1042 said:

@Benjamin Arnold.3457 said:Yeah by themselves those combos seem fine with me, with variation based on which fractal of course, which wasn't specified. Especially toxic trail + afflicted since toxic trails don't apply afflicted conditions.

Shouldn't these more difficult instability combinations also be rewarding more for the increased effort/difficulty? Right now you get the same stuff for an easy roll of instabilities as you do the current combinations that everyone is complaining about.

Quantifying that in a meaningful way just doesn't seem feasible. A hard combination in one fractal can be an easy one in another.

Why not add instability specific rewards? :) runs with toxic trail would drop toxic bauble, last laugh -- explosive bauble and so forth. And then exchange N baubles at BUY golem for something shiny? (A mini krait for toxic, mini layline for flux bauble etc)Then instability would be a somewhat net positive instead of just degrading fractal runs :)

I think you misunderstand the point of instabilities honestly. They aren't there to "degrade" fractals, but to change them, so that it isn't the same thing every single time. It prevents tedium from taking over daily fractals (though everyone is, of course, allowed to have their own opinions of how well they do this. Personally I think that the new system is pretty great at achieving this).

Honestly? I'm pretty sure that a big slice of players would rather

not

have additional random (however small) difficulty increase in the name of "not being the same thing" and having to learn how to clear same fractal but with bonus punishing mechanics of the day/week.

Otherwise we'd have "random mote" and those people who are bored would use it while leaving other pug groups alone ;) (or "vanilla mote" to turn current random combination off) having everyone else suffer in the name of "this is too boring and not challenging enough

for me

" is rather unfair. So let's not pretend that majority magically decided to make life more difficult or that instabilities are anything other than an annoyance and a bump up in difficulty.

And as we're not getting rid of them, questions are about howto make it less bad/ unfair/ extra punishing in particular cases. And adding an extra little something would sweeten otherwise bitter for pugs pill, stuffed down their throats :)

Honestly? Anet decided they were going to keep instabilities, and unless you can provide facts that state that the vast majority of the playerbase don't enjoy them, its not likely to be removed anytime soon. Making them random was by request of players for a while now, since always having the same ones was stale. Ben is working on making the worst of the combinations less unfair and less punishing, but its not as if this was something that wasn't asked for by the community

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Nerfed last laugh is indeed better now, however I still don't like instabilities as a concept. As I told before, they are either annoying or irrelevant. Instabilities should be exclusive per fractal, making it real game changers instead of cheap gimmicks.

[Talindra.4958]

Our pug full clear today wasn't too bad.. not perfect but not bad. ? We had to repeat once 99cm last boss because vindicators stop ppl from capping. if you have two person go down .. it's tougher at 33% when a lot more things going on. There are ways to counter however.

Also we did 77 swamp LL + TT, it wasn't too bad, theres no party wipe..

[evlover.6270]

Hamstrung in the aquatic path with dolphins.. just silly since the krait all gang up on you from the moment they hit you once as you're a sitting duck.. even at lvl 61 for recs