Full Counter

[choovanski.5462]

um it only has 300 range so u can just proc it with a range wep, when you see the animation/icon.

personally, I have headbutt outrage, and whirlwind attack so it's not a big deal for me really. or I'm on DH or scrapper, those are fine too. acid bomb is really funny to use.

[Jzaku.9765]

You can just dodge after proccing it.There's a delay between the proc and the animation for the damage. In Breaker vs Breaker matchups you can even Counter a Counter.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:This skill is very strong. You are acting like we are bad because we can't stop attacking every 8 seconds when it comes off of cooldown. That's not the problem.

Good spellbreakers reserve Full Counter for when they

know

its going to hit. This is why good ones shine over the bad ones. They almost

always

hit Full Counter. It's essentially an instant cast block that does a high amount of damage coupled with an interrupt that applies cripple, slow, and immobilize and makes the warrior immune to conditions on an 8 second cooldown. It is the single most overtuned skill in the game right now.

I'm not saying its overpowered, but it reminds me of Steal on steroids. And Steal has already had its fair share of complaints.

Cripple/slow/immobilize are Other traits needing to be selected to work with counter,dont act like its already slapped on there baseline.

How can you even say THIS - " It is the single most overtuned skill in the game right now."

And then end it with - "I'm not saying its overpowered" .....

Something can be overtuned without being overpowered. There aren't any overpowered abilities in the game, just overtuned ones. Builds that are extremely low risk/low skill cap yet still highly effective could be considered overpowered. Ie) condi evade spam thief, ventari rev

Everything else more or less requires decent mechanical knowledge to play. Full Counter can be spammed, or it can be held on to. Regardless, it is highly effective for only having an 8 second cooldown. In other words, it does too much with just 1 button.

What do you mean spammed ? First of all its an 8sec icd,so you cannot "Spamm" it,besides it needs adren to be used aswell.Its about our only skill Ever that actually brings some extra effects ontop of it If you trait for them that is.Also..It can be dodged !

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter In its honest form...Without added traits. Again,we have to put in 3 traits to add the named effects.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

@Jzaku.9765 said:You can just dodge after proccing it.There's a delay between the proc and the animation for the damage. In Breaker vs Breaker matchups you can even Counter a Counter.

yep, just add a 8s cd skill to the long list of things people need to dodge when fighting a war.

shield bash, have to dodge thatwhirlwind attack? definitely have to dodge thathundred blades? a must dodge.then dodge every 8 secs to avoid FC.

I too wish i had 10 dodge bars.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:This skill is very strong. You are acting like we are bad because we can't stop attacking every 8 seconds when it comes off of cooldown. That's not the problem.

Good spellbreakers reserve Full Counter for when they

know

its going to hit. This is why good ones shine over the bad ones. They almost

always

hit Full Counter. It's essentially an instant cast block that does a high amount of damage coupled with an interrupt that applies cripple, slow, and immobilize and makes the warrior immune to conditions on an 8 second cooldown. It is the single most overtuned skill in the game right now.

I'm not saying its overpowered, but it reminds me of Steal on steroids. And Steal has already had its fair share of complaints.

Cripple/slow/immobilize are Other traits needing to be selected to work with counter,dont act like its already slapped on there baseline.

How can you even say THIS - " It is the single most overtuned skill in the game right now."

And then end it with - "I'm not saying its overpowered" .....

Something can be overtuned without being overpowered. There aren't any overpowered abilities in the game, just overtuned ones. Builds that are extremely low risk/low skill cap yet still highly effective could be considered overpowered. Ie) condi evade spam thief, ventari rev

Everything else more or less requires decent mechanical knowledge to play. Full Counter can be spammed, or it can be held on to. Regardless, it is highly effective for only having an 8 second cooldown. In other words, it does too much with just 1 button.

What do you mean spammed ? First of all its an 8sec icd,so you cannot "Spamm" it,besides it needs adren to be used aswell.Its about our only skill Ever that actually brings some extra effects ontop of it If you trait for them that is.Also..It can be dodged !

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Full_Counter

In its honest form...Without added traits. Again,we have to put in 3 traits to add the named effects.

You can spam it every 8 seconds, or 6.75 second traited. I don't have enough dodges to have to dodge this skill every time, and not attacking for the duration of the channel relieves a lot of pressure off of the warrior.

Most people I've fought run with this skill traited.

[Zeghart.9841]

@Darknicrofia.2604 said:yep, just add a 8s cd skill to the long list of things people need to dodge when fighting a war.

shield bash, have to dodge thatwhirlwind attack? definitely have to dodge thathundred blades? a must dodge.then dodge every 8 secs to avoid FC.

I too wish i had 10 dodge bars.

Hundred blades? Wat? You can walk out of hundred blades.Shield bash? You can stunbreak out of it.Also blocks or evade skills exist. It's not like all Warrior skills are unblockable.All of this without even mentioning blinds, if your class has access to them.

What's your point exactly? That you must be able to dodge everything always? Should Warriors never be able to land a skill?If a Warrior depletes all your defensive CDs and your endurance bar, I'd say he kinda deserves to land a damn Full Counter.

[Majirah.5089]

@Zeghart.9841 said:

@Darknicrofia.2604 said:yep, just add a 8s cd skill to the long list of things people need to dodge when fighting a war.

shield bash, have to dodge thatwhirlwind attack? definitely have to dodge that

hundred blades? a must dodge.

then dodge every 8 secs to avoid FC.

I too wish i had 10 dodge bars.

You dodge hundred blades? Can't you just walk out of that?

[Sereath.1428]

JFC this needs at least a 15 second cooldown if you don't want any other kind of fair nerf to its numbers and/or mechanics.

[sinject.4607]

Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

[choovanski.5462]

@sinject.4607 said:Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

Regardless of whether SB is op or not with full counter, I just want to point out that a warrior has nearly twice the health of a guardian, so that's why they have so many blocks/aegis. The warrior was designed from the start to be a tougher melee character that would attack more and not rely on blocks as much.

[sephiroth.4217]

I'm getting a lot of wins on Spellbreaker and it's not because of Full Counter. I'm winning because I have boon strip overload traits combined with a hammer and mace shield. Quite a few ammies and builds work with that weapon set right now such as paladin discipline build or a sage strength build.

But yea sure, full counter is "OP" lmao.

[sinject.4607]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.

baseline Steal:

• a 1200 range teleport
• mediocre single use skill IF it lands
• on a 30 second cooldown.

baseline Full Counter:

• gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc
• an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+
• 2 seconds of stability
• 1/2sec daze
• on an 8 second cooldown

to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

[Arheundel.6451]

Between stances, shield block, pulsating resistance, dmg immunity...and now full counter....berseker 2.0 ready to roll...now awaiting for the next 10+ months of 2x spellbreaker in pvp followed by dozen of nerfs threads and warrior players telling you to dodge obvious animation...so dodge 10+ times easily...did I miss anything?

[kKagari.6804]

I defeated 3 below average players and a returning merciless legend at once on point last night. Felt good.

[Lighter.5631]

same feeling when warrior pre pof was dealing with DH

[sephiroth.4217]

(quoted wrong person, can't delete posts)

[choovanski.5462]

@sinject.4607 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.

baseline Steal:

• a 1200 range teleport
• mediocre single use skill IF it lands
• on a 30 second cooldown.

baseline Full Counter:

• gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc
• an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+
• 2 seconds of stability
• 1/2sec daze
• on an 8 second cooldown

to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

I actually didn't buy the expac and am still playing gunflame or DH (I can just proc full counter from range and ignore it lol) , but yeah dude keep projecting. keep thinking it's personal bias, and continue with the attacks. it doesn't make you look good, and it's wrong so whatever.

all I said was it's the elite spec's mechanic so it should be good, and that comparing it to berserker is unfair due to recent nerfs. like, I don't expect photon forge to be terrible, or any of the other mechanics. they should ideally be good.

elite specs are meant to be upgrades. it's evidenced in the design, not in anet's vapid PR speak. so I expect the mechanics they add to be actually good. considering the utilities are poor, and the weapon isn't that great it's no surprise full counter is good, there's little reason other than that to pick the spec for pvp.

core warrior is only good vs Berserker due to nerfs. don't kid yourself. also core thief and core ranger viable? lol maybe in a solo queue clown fiesta but not in a tournament. you would have to be.... god I don't even have a word... but if I did it would be a rude one, and I would use it to describe the level of intelligence somone would need to slot core thief or core ranger in a team. lol.

tbh. I feel like you don't know anything if you think core ranger is a good pick, and honestly don't know why anyone would value your opinions on balance at all considering that.

anyhow. it might well need shaves. I can't say 100%. but warrior is a class that is historically overnerfed in PvP. it gets reduced to dog tier all the time, and usually because of forum QQ. I would hate to see it happen another time. it's nice for things to be viable.

[Solori.6025]

@sinject.4607 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.

baseline Steal:

• a 1200 range teleport
• mediocre single use skill IF it lands
• on a 30 second cooldown.

baseline Full Counter:

• gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc
• an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+
• 2 seconds of stability
• 1/2sec daze
• on an 8 second cooldown

to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

Isn't deadeye oneshotting people from range?Why are you comparing two opposite spectrums?Did you not look at the nerfs to berseker that made it worse than core warrior?I feel like you started this post with no clue about what you are even complaining about.

Go deadeye and pick people off like everyone else that got PoF

[choovanski.5462]

@Solori.6025 said:

@sinject.4607 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.

baseline Steal:

• a 1200 range teleport
• mediocre single use skill IF it lands
• on a 30 second cooldown.

baseline Full Counter:

• gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc
• an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+
• 2 seconds of stability
• 1/2sec daze
• on an 8 second cooldown

to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

Isn't deadeye oneshotting people from range?Why are you comparing two opposite spectrums?Did you not look at the nerfs to berseker that made it worse than core warrior?I feel like you started this post with no clue about what you are even complaining about.

Go deadeye and pick people off like everyone else that got PoF

I know right? class that hits for 25-30k with one skill complains about 3-4k damage.

then tells us core ranger is viable.

who is this person?

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@sinject.4607 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@sinject.4607 said:Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.

baseline Steal:

• a 1200 range teleport
• mediocre single use skill IF it lands
• on a 30 second cooldown.

baseline Full Counter:

• gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc
• an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+
• 2 seconds of stability
• 1/2sec daze
• on an 8 second cooldown

to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

Isn't deadeye oneshotting people from range?Why are you comparing two opposite spectrums?Did you not look at the nerfs to berseker that made it worse than core warrior?I feel like you started this post with no clue about what you are even complaining about.

Go deadeye and pick people off like everyone else that got PoF

I know right? class that hits for 25-30k with one skill complains about 3-4k damage.

then tells us core ranger is viable.

who is this person?

Quiet! He enjoys his advantage and believe that all other professions should lick his boots, he should never have any competition. All other professions should never bust at even 10% of the bursts he can do! 13% is TOO DAMN HIGH!

[Erzian.5218]

@choovanski.5462 said:

then tells us core ranger is viable.

Core ranger was pretty viable (for ranked queues, not ATs) in the time between the last update before PoF and the PoF release. For solo queue it was often a better choice than druid as you could win 1v1s quickly instead of being stuck in an everlasting 1v1 (and hope your team would win 4v4). Now it just gets facerolled by spellbreaker, scourge and mirage seems difficult to beat, too (although that might just be because I don't really know the animations of the skills that I have to dodge).Since PoF solo queuing on ranger is rather frustrating as core ranger is much worse now and druid does not carry anything if people don't 2v1 you all game. I think if you want to play ranger in legend now, you pretty much have to duo queue at all times. Kind of sad.Generally, its role as small skirmish character that mostly had favorable or stalemates match ups, is much better filled by spellbreaker now, who has more favorable match ups, can actually win them in a reasonable amount of time and is more useful in team fights.Unless anet changes spellbreaker (perhaps make full counter not trigger on pets/illusions/summons in general or something), mesmer and ranger are most likely useless/bad choices as both of them have their class mechanic countered by full counter. I think it is bad to have a class that hard-counters whole skill sets as well as two classes. Permanent resistance with very little tradeoff is also questionable as it renders all condition builds that do not have access to frequent boon removal (realistically everything but necro) useless.

[Solori.6025]

@Erzian.5218 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

then tells us core ranger is viable.

Core ranger was pretty viable (for ranked queues, not ATs) in the time between the last update before PoF and the PoF release. For solo queue it was often a better choice than druid as you could win 1v1s quickly instead of being stuck in an everlasting 1v1 (and hope your team would win 4v4). Now it just gets facerolled by spellbreaker, scourge and mirage seems difficult to beat, too (although that might just be because I don't really know the animations of the skills that I have to dodge).Since PoF solo queuing on ranger is rather frustrating as core ranger is much worse now and druid does not carry anything if people don't 2v1 you all game. I think if you want to play ranger in legend now, you pretty much have to duo queue at all times. Kind of sad.Generally, its role as small skirmish character that mostly had favorable or stalemates match ups, is much better filled by spellbreaker now, who has more favorable match ups, can actually win them in a reasonable amount of time and is more useful in team fights.Unless anet changes spellbreaker (perhaps make full counter not trigger on pets/illusions/summons in general or something), mesmer and ranger are most likely useless/bad choices as both of them have their class mechanic countered by full counter. I think it is bad to have a class that hard-counters whole skill sets as well as two classes. Permanent resistance with very little tradeoff is also questionable as it renders all condition builds that do not have access to frequent boon removal (realistically everything but necro) useless.

Arent Rangers still hitting for 15k + (cause 60k charge is ok) AoE's ?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/4115/why-is-no-one-talking-about-this-lol#latest

[Zeghart.9841]

@Erzian.5218 said:Permanent resistance with very little tradeoff is also questionable as it renders all condition builds that do not have access to frequent boon removal (realistically everything but necro) useless.

You mean it would completely fix PvP?! ALL HAIL SPELLBREAKER

But to be serious, I don't think Spellbreaker "hard counters" anything. Yes, it's especially strong against Ranger/Mesmer/Guardian, but it's not like hitting into a Full Counter automatically means losing. It's just a 3k hit that can still be dodged, avoided or kited. Not to mention that breaking the FC due to a pet autoattack or a summon hit makes it unavailable for blocking meatier attacks.

In fact those same class mechanics can work the opposite way if playing smartly, using the pet or the illusions to purposefully bait and waste the Spellbreaker's FC while in a good position. I've seen that happen multiple times lately, as people start to get more experience fighting the spec.

So far I'd say the spec as a whole had a very beneficial impact on the PvP scene. Since it somewhat counters some of the cheesier builds they tend to be played a bit less, and people mindlessly spamming skills get punished and hopefully learn to pay more attention.

[Ario.8964]

Here's my take on full counter from the play I've done with and against it:Good skill that rewards timing and punishes spammingImo it's just a bit too oppressive: Daze is fine, instant cast is fine, and cd is fine (at most it can go up to 10 sec but I don't think it's necessary). My complaint/suggestions to change it would be to remove the unblockable aspect and maybe nerf damage by 10% but that's about it. The skill is strong but it has to be utilized correctly and played against actively WHICH IS A GOOD THING. The game needs more skills that require active play and prediction rather than the what everyone is used to now with the "drop all your aoe and afk" style.

Also for those needing counterplay: Even if you hit them in their counter there's a small windup during which you can dodge and avoid the hit completely. If you know they are going to use it when they can guarantee it'll proc then save dodges for when you think they may use it and then counter accordingly.