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Bring traps and spirits better again


Rap Tiger.1257
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I remember that traps when they could be thrown and spirits when they could move were used much more than currently, in pvp and wvw it is rare to see someone using these two, they are many stationary, traps are very predictable as is now if the player observes the another where it is putting the trap and the same spirits with 1000 of range still makes difficult a fight against players who usually run away and attack from afar ....

what do you think? Should Arenanet improve or do as I say, or just leave it the way it is?

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spirits unbound should return yes. That was one of the defining traits for the ranger in wvw which i still don't understand why it got removed as they aren't anything like the banners being immobile and killable the worst offenders.

Some rework changing the models so they clutter less the area yes. They have the wisps models from the druid staff, perfect a lot of small different colors light bulbs.Some rework in the passives yes also, so it makes easier to understand the effects to work all like the ice one, a plain buff or a chance on hit\struck.Even i would not care if the actives wouldn't be ground target although it would be a massive QoL, as long as the spirits are able to follow me i can keep them out from the AoEs and also keep them up with the zerg.

Traps i don't really know how to save them. Problem is not only the cast on place it's just they are not useful at all in most situations. Some rethinking to the trait , I should not need increased condition duration for a trap to work, that means the original effect is underwhelming.To increase the amount of pulses\duration of the trap by 2 secs in all and a trait with an effect like 3 secs of stealth when placing plus some short immob on trigger IMO would be fine, our traps all apply direct damage so it would break us out from stealth, but it would help the ranger and soulbeast to re position themselves. I don't think it would impact much for raiders but it would be a massive improvement for wvw\pvp in build variety where i can't find a fun condi build for ranger in pvp\wvw

So differences:

  • Spirits for support which can be destroyed and ranged instant condi AoE with delay, where the spirit like a projectile take sort time to reach the destination.
  • Traps to have pulsing condi AoE where the limitation is that should be placed on site.

That and a 1500 baseline shortbow and IMO we may see more condi and hybrid builds in game with shortbow and dagger MH.

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What do you guys have against stealth on trap?

It was fun, I really liked it and tried to get the most miles out of it as I could.

But let's be honest. It's a shitty build with no survivability. And you want to take the stealth away. GG.

Even if you made them throwable, like they once were and had the stealth that you want to remove (for sadistic reasons?) it would still be niche.It would still lack surivability.

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:What do you guys have against stealth on trap?

It was fun, I really liked it and tried to get the most miles out of it as I could.

But let's be honest. It's a kitten build with no survivability. And you want to take the stealth away. GG.

Even if you made them throwable, like they once were and had the stealth that you want to remove (for sadistic reasons?) it would still be niche.It would still lack surivability.

If someone is not running full traps but with stone signet, a survival skill for cleanse and a spike trap with a LB and staff.They could stealth with LB, with trap and smokescale staff blast and everything safe from ranged. Thats the whole point basically why.Alao you are a bunker god as a druid and more stealth could break stuff, so i rather take the safe approach.

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@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:What do you guys have against stealth on trap?

It was fun, I really liked it and tried to get the most miles out of it as I could.

But let's be honest. It's a kitten build with no survivability. And you want to take the stealth away. GG.

Even if you made them throwable, like they once were and had the stealth that you want to remove (for sadistic reasons?) it would still be niche.It would still lack surivability.

If someone is not running full traps but with stone signet, a survival skill for cleanse and a spike trap with a LB and staff.They could stealth with LB, with trap and smokescale staff blast and everything safe from ranged. Thats the whole point basically why.Alao you are a bunker god as a druid and more stealth could break stuff, so i rather take the safe approach.

What you just described is not a trapper build.

No one is nerfing trapper runes.

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I don't necessary want trapper runes to be nerfed, I just remember one of the dev saying it was like playing a grenade engineer and that stealth was cheesy (it doesn't make ''sense'' that you can throw traps). So, the nerf was based on a roleplaying facet, not based on balance. Then, they showed the DH spec and it all made sense. Nerfing throwing traps from Ranger, before DH asking traps to be throw-able too.

It wasn't a meta build, it wasn't a super good build, but it was a fun and average one. It does make sense to have non throwing 900 range and 300 radius Sand Shades with no tells, that are far more oppressing than ranger traps, tho. If I remember right, Throwing Traps had a range of 600 and was before the Condi rehaul.

Thief traps could use some buffs too.

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:What do you guys have against stealth on trap?

It was fun, I really liked it and tried to get the most miles out of it as I could.

But let's be honest. It's a kitten build with no survivability. And you want to take the stealth away. GG.

Even if you made them throwable, like they once were and had the stealth that you want to remove (for sadistic reasons?) it would still be niche.It would still lack surivability.

If someone is not running full traps but with stone signet, a survival skill for cleanse and a spike trap with a LB and staff.They could stealth with LB, with trap and smokescale staff blast and everything safe from ranged. Thats the whole point basically why.Alao you are a bunker god as a druid and more stealth could break stuff, so i rather take the safe approach.

What you just described is not a trapper build.

No one is nerfing trapper runes.

I am not referring to a nerf for trapper runes.I am referring that throwing traps would not trigger trapper runes to prevent any broken stuff.What i described is not a full on trapper build but it can be used as a hybrid stealth build.

In the end it lies on the devs to decide if throwable traps comeback and if they should trigger the rune or not.

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In all likeliness, we are better off asking for stuff that isn't going to bring back what they moved away from. I've said as much as I can say on traps, but Spirits, I'd want to see some alterations like these:

  • Ground target actives, about 600 range from the player. Place around a 0.5s cast time and animation for the player to do instead of the Spirit. Edit the flavor text from "Your Spirit sacrifices itself" to "You sacrifice your Spirit" for consistency.
  • Have each of the actives leave a combo field, it's not like all but one does damage anyway and it increases the utility of their actives. Frost (Ice), Sun (Fire), Storm (Lightning), Earth (Smoke), Water (Water), Nature (Light).
  • Baseline the 100% health increase from Nature's Vengeance since Spirits are paper in WvW/PvP, plus, it cuts down on how many effects are loaded onto a single trait, GM or not.
  • With ground-target actives, change the radius increase to affect the passives instead of actives. 240 radius active from 600 range is pretty standard, and if the GM expanded the passive radius from 1000 to 1500 while applying all the effects and boons on up to 10 allies, well that would be pretty decent.

Possibly edit "Nature's Vengeance" to "Nature's Bounty" since the trait function changed when Spirit actives on-death was removed. Plus, it's more fitting. Christ, you guys altered and changed Vigorous Training to Spirited Renewal, and all that was added was Fury with a duration adjustment to Vigor.

Speaking of which, maybe consider changing Spirited Renewal to a Spirit trait? Something like each Spirit provides a stacking bonus so Rangers gain something for slotting more Spirits, or when summoning a Spirit, nearby allies around the player gain a temporary effect possibly each Spirit providing a different one.

The AoE Vigor of the current trait is decent, but it's outclassed by Evasive Purity and Windborne Notes (depending on mode). It can be salvaged though by placing it on Invigorating Bond so pet F2s heal and apply Vigor to affected allies. Not to mention Clarion Bond takes care of AoE Fury on pet-swap and then some.

Edit: Meant Spirited Arrival not Renewal.

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@"Wondrouswall.7169" said:In all likeliness, we are better off asking for stuff that isn't going to bring back what they moved away from. I've said as much as I can say on traps, but Spirits, I'd want to see some alterations like these:

  • Ground target actives, about 600 range from the player. Place around a 0.5s cast time and animation for the player to do instead of the Spirit. Edit the flavor text from "Your Spirit sacrifices itself" to "You sacrifice your Spirit" for consistency.
  • Have each of the actives leave a combo field, it's not like all but one does damage anyway and it increases the utility of their actives. Frost (Ice), Sun (Fire), Storm (Lightning), Earth (Smoke), Water (Water), Nature (Light).
  • Baseline the 100% health increase from Nature's Vengeance since Spirits are paper in WvW/PvP, plus, it cuts down on how many effects are loaded onto a single trait, GM or not.
  • With ground-target actives, change the radius increase to affect the passives instead of actives. 240 radius active from 600 range is pretty standard, and if the GM expanded the passive radius from 1000 to 1500 while applying all the effects and boons on up to 10 allies, well that would be pretty decent.

Possibly edit "Nature's Vengeance" to "Nature's Bounty" since the trait function changed when Spirit actives on-death was removed. Plus, it's more fitting. Christ, you guys altered and changed Vigorous Training to Spirited Renewal, and all that was added was Fury with a duration adjustment to Vigor.

Speaking of which, maybe consider changing Spirited Renewal to a Spirit trait? Something like each Spirit provides a stacking bonus so Rangers gain something for slotting more Spirits, or when summoning a Spirit, nearby allies around the player gain a temporary effect possibly each Spirit providing a different one.

The AoE Vigor of the current trait is decent, but it's outclassed by Evasive Purity and Windborne Notes (depending on mode). It can be salvaged though by placing it on Invigorating Bond so pet F2s heal and apply Vigor to affected allies. Not to mention Clarion Bond takes care of AoE Fury on pet-swap and then some.

I once made a suggestion that spiritweapons and spirits are the same type of utility.So they also work the dame way.

This means ranger spirits get charges and are ground targeted.

They use their "active" when activated and the buff after activation.The buff last a tiny bit shorter than the recharge time of the ammunition.So much so that you have to recast a spirit to keep it up but never run out of charges if played correctly.I would also change the effects of spirits and their passives.

Water: StaysFrost: StaysSun: StaysEarth: Produces smokefield that destriys projectiles, passive is now a flat out dmg reduction instead of protection, so it can stack with its trait boon.Storm: Passive is now a chance to summon a lightning strike on strike that dmgs and applies vuln.Nature:Active: Revive an ally (partially revive in competitive modes)Passive: Increase incoming healing. Chance to remove condis on strike.

Trait is basically: Increased Area of buff and combofield and the passsive also pulses boons.

This way spirits are "mobile" and you can use them more offensively and actively.And as a small cherry on top, they could make a rune that triggers on spirit use.

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I give up trying to use the spirit sun, I have to stay fighting with it, traps then since throwing would be "op", then better to have more effect, it only works if the person is stuck with entangle or close to the opponent, spirits, whether it will work for whisp or as a spiritual weapon, so that it can move.

another idea would be to invoke the spirits and gain their buff anywhere, and the allies would only gain the buff if they were close to the 1000 spirit range.

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@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@"Wondrouswall.7169" said:In all likeliness, we are better off asking for stuff that isn't going to bring back what they moved away from. I've said as much as I can say on traps, but Spirits, I'd want to see some alterations like these:
  • Ground target actives, about 600 range from the player. Place around a 0.5s cast time and animation for the player to do instead of the Spirit. Edit the flavor text from "Your Spirit sacrifices itself" to "You sacrifice your Spirit" for consistency.
  • Have each of the actives leave a combo field, it's not like all but one does damage anyway and it increases the utility of their actives. Frost (Ice), Sun (Fire), Storm (Lightning), Earth (Smoke), Water (Water), Nature (Light).
  • Baseline the 100% health increase from Nature's Vengeance since Spirits are paper in WvW/PvP, plus, it cuts down on how many effects are loaded onto a single trait, GM or not.
  • With ground-target actives, change the radius increase to affect the passives instead of actives. 240 radius active from 600 range is pretty standard, and if the GM expanded the passive radius from 1000 to 1500 while applying all the effects and boons on up to 10 allies, well that would be pretty decent.

Possibly edit "Nature's Vengeance" to "Nature's Bounty" since the trait function changed when Spirit actives on-death was removed. Plus, it's more fitting. Christ, you guys altered and changed Vigorous Training to Spirited Renewal, and all that was added was Fury with a duration adjustment to Vigor.

Speaking of which, maybe consider changing Spirited Renewal to a Spirit trait? Something like each Spirit provides a stacking bonus so Rangers gain something for slotting more Spirits, or when summoning a Spirit, nearby allies around the player gain a temporary effect possibly each Spirit providing a different one.

The AoE Vigor of the current trait is decent, but it's outclassed by Evasive Purity and Windborne Notes (depending on mode). It can be salvaged though by placing it on In
vigor
ating Bond so pet F2s heal and apply Vigor to affected allies. Not to mention Clarion Bond takes care of AoE Fury on pet-swap and then some.

I once made a suggestion that spiritweapons and spirits are the same type of utility.So they also work the dame way.

This means ranger spirits get charges and are ground targeted.

They use their "active" when activated and the buff after activation.The buff last a tiny bit shorter than the recharge time of the ammunition.So much so that you have to recast a spirit to keep it up but never run out of charges if played correctly.I would also change the effects of spirits and their passives.

Water: StaysFrost: StaysSun: StaysEarth: Produces smokefield that destriys projectiles, passive is now a flat out dmg reduction instead of protection, so it can stack with its trait boon.Storm: Passive is now a chance to summon a lightning strike on strike that dmgs and applies vuln.Nature:Active: Revive an ally (partially revive in competitive modes)Passive: Increase incoming healing. Chance to remove condis on strike.

Trait is basically: Increased Area of buff and combofield and the passsive also pulses boons.

This way spirits are "mobile" and you can use them more offensively and actively.And as a small cherry on top, they could make a rune that triggers on spirit use.

I think this is a really great idea and I much prefer it over the current implementation. Only thing I see being a potential issue is Earth being too strong in PvP/WvW if it became a smoke field. With all of our finishers and us already having access to a smoke field via the smokescale, our stealth uptime could be potentially way too high. Suppose it'd depend on the cooldown for each charge. I like that you are trying to differentiate it from what it currently is, though, as it is too similar to Muddy Terrain.

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Short bow needs a range increase. Why would staff have a 1200 range and short bow only 900.Even a dagger has a longer range. Another issue is the axe .Why a ground targeting for path of scars .It's impossible to catch anything moving with it not to mention it's ridiculously small and with a range of 450 completes it,s uselessness.Overlapping traits that mimic signets? Seems the Devs leave the ranger till Friday and just throw some garbage at them without putting any thought what so ever just to get finished work early . The spirits need to move.They're as effective a throwing a glass of water on a forest fire.Natural convergence needs a faster activation to 1 second .The way it is now you may as well just stand there for 2 and half seconds and let your opponent kill you instead of wasting energy making the key stroke.Dump the pets with the same skills and bring in ones that are useful like one that grants stability or speed .Some pets ,like spiders and birds, should be aloud to scale walls like clones and minions are aloud to be put on walls.Entangle should be considered a trap and made to work like a trap .That would at least bring it on par with the dragon hunter elite trap.Fix Downed skill thunder clap so it brings it on par with other classes .A one second daze is hardly close the many seconds chasing or recovering from the same skill slot as other classes.Non of these changes would over power the ranger class but it would fix some of the useless baggage it has now.

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@InsaneQR.7412 said:@"Pterikdactyl.7630"

Well i would like to put an earthfield on it but this is not existent atm^^Darkfield could work too. Lifesteal is defensive and fits the theme.

Actually earth working like now, leaving a muddy terrain on active would be great. Immob\slow\cripple in a more accurate skill (lest say even if the wisp has to travel like a projectile we would expect a moderately fast speed) i think is pretty interesting.

Nature spirit would benefit of a CD reduction to something like 60 secs if we would to remove the revive part. I'd like to move the entangle to the spirit active, if theme fitting and coherent with the rest of the game.

I will get this chance to remind we still need spirits unbound. It could be as adept and only function to allow the wisps to follow you.

Nature vengeance could provide a new effect instead simply throwing more boons into s game saturated with them.

Spirits passives pulse every 6 seconds while affected it causes this effects on 25% chance o hitWater: heal.Sun: burning.Ice : chilledsStone: crippleStorm: lighting strike (like air sigil)Nature: Minor heal around the target (like water sigil)

Using trait Nature vengeance will provide the additional effect on 25% chance when struck

Water: cleanse 1 condition.Sun: FuryIce : protectionStone: stabilityStorm: daze (like shocking aura)Nature: resistance

Plus the actives in ranged AoE of 240 radius:Water: HealSun: BurningIce : ChillStone: Muddy terrain alikeStorm: StunNature: Entangle(on 400 radius)

Thus there is no more boon spam in different times and no more obscure ICDs. You get the boon you know you have a chance to trigger the effect.

actually on a second thought i would leave the fields for the traps. Were spirits actives are a burst ranged AoE damage traps should be a sustained condition application with the extra help from the fields

Traps actives need to last more so the ranger has time to get the most of the field and also to increase the damage without increasing the burst.Traps last 6 seconds (included healing spring) and pulse every second, total of 7 pulses.

Trap Trait instead giving more condi duration IMO i would change it like this:Trapper expertise: Traps gain additional effect when triggered. Cd is reducedHealing spring: Pulse heals every pulse.Flame: apply blind every pulse.Frost: entering the area knock down the foes.Spike: Apply smoke field (it doesn't have any field attached and it seems fitting for the CD thus you can hit the enemy while knocked down and still get advante of the blast or leap)Viper: Life steal every pulse.

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I play a trapper often. Personally I could care less about throwing them(I disliked it)

1 Traps are condi.....why is ice NOT? maybe add ice+ torment?

2 How about an elite trap? Dont Guards get elite trap?

3 fire trap is 100% useless (tested ) unless a person stands in it for a long time , it does ONE tick...maybe

make it trigger all at once?

Trapper rune nerf also stunk,not like many used them anyway

As a "clicker"

last night (solo) Zero deaths 291 killsAgain, as a "clicker"Will post vid when I get time

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@FASTCAR.7831 said:I play a trapper often. Personally I could care less about throwing them(I disliked it)

1 Traps are condi.....why is ice NOT? maybe add ice+ torment?

2 How about an elite trap? Dont Guards get elite trap?

3 fire trap is 100% useless (tested ) unless a person stands in it for a long time , it does ONE tick...maybe

make it trigger all at once?Actually I don’t think traps should “immob” you on them. That would be extremely annoying and unfun to play against.

Instead locking an user, traps should give you the fields. Traps only need to have the healing spring area size and last longer (they only last 3 seconds) so you can make better use of the field.

Our projectiles should get much better chance of finisher (20% is the standard and ranger projectile in all of its weapons) I bet something like 50% is fine.

With that as an example you can use a fire trap and stay on it while you use your LB and shoot fire arrows.. Or using your healing spring + LB trait and heal the Zerg with your pew pew. still you need positioning and opportunity but I think that promotes smart play instead smashing button.

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Agreed, spirits need to be able to move, and traps need a buff since a very long time.

Spike trap: is OK. Maybe a little cooldown reduction.Flame trap: doesnt do enough damage. Very short duration. Either increase the duration or the applied burning stacks per second from 1 to 2.Vipers nest: this one is quite OK.Frost trap: worst of all. Brings basically nothing. Add weakness and torment or vulnerability for example.

At least 1 trap needs a stunbreak. Throwing traps would be nice. I don't think it would be OP.

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